IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.libera.chat (webchat)
Channel log from 4 June 2012 (all times are UTC)
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| 00:48 | * vagrantc returns to the confusing state of LDM_*DESKTOP and LDM_*SESSION | |
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| 02:27 | * vagrantc schemes to implement LDM_SELECTED_SESSION | |
| 02:27 | <vagrantc> this would solve a lot of confusion.
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| 02:28 | because LDM_SESSION is used for two purposes ... setting an environment variable from lts.conf, and also being passed from the greeter as the selected session... and the dmrc processing can't tell the difference
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| 02:29 | or we could just deprecate LDM_SESSION.
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| 05:51 | <vagrantc> alkisg: ok, so ...
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| 05:51 | <alkisg> Heya
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| 05:52 | <vagrantc> alkisg: so my last patch pretty much gets the LDM_FORCE_SESSION and LDM_FORCE_DESKTOP working ... LDM_DESKTOP doesn't override LDM_SESSION, though, because there's no way to detect if the LDM_SESSION value is from selecting it in the menu,.
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| 05:52 | * alkisg would vote for LDM_SESSION to take the meaning of LDM_DESKTOP, and to keep only those 2, LDM_SESSION and LDM_FORCE_SESSION, and a 3rd one passed by LDM, LDM_SELECTED_SESSION. | |
| 05:53 | <alkisg> It might cause some lts.conf upgrade problems, but I think it'll cause less confusion in the long term
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| 05:53 | * vagrantc doesnt like breaking backwards compatibility | |
| 05:54 | <alkisg> 02:29or we could just deprecate LDM_SESSION. ==> doesn't that break backwards compatibility anyway?
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| 05:54 | <vagrantc> well, thenn it's a planned breakage, rather than a hidden change of purpose
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| 05:56 | <alkisg> We could have a period where we support the old syntax too, i.e. test if LDM_SESSION refers to an Exec line instead of a .desktop file name
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| 05:57 | <alkisg> Overriding .dmrc but not forcing the session is kinda confusing on its own, as it is now
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| 05:57 | <vagrantc> i like the LDM_DESKTOP better anyways
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| 05:57 | <alkisg> cat .dmrc => Session=xxx, I think people will understand that more easily (or ls /usr/share/xsessions, always "session" in the names there)
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| 05:59 | I.e. let's just state that "LDM_SESSION may be a .desktop file name, or if not, a whole session command line to run", to support both meanings, but also that "the .desktop file name syntax is preferred"
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| 05:59 | ...because it allows for checking if the session is actually available
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| 06:00 | We can keep it this way for a couple of years until people upgrade their lts.conf on their own timing
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| 06:01 | <vagrantc> ok, that works too, i guess.
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| 06:01 | alkisg: so, check if it matches a session name?
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| 06:02 | <alkisg> First check if it matches a session name, then if it doesn't contain spaces, check if `which $LDM_SESSION` exists, if not fall back to the default session, and if it does contain spaces, then don't check if it exists, just run it
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| 06:03 | While for LDM_FORCE_SESSION we can require that it's a .desktop name, it's a new variable
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| 06:03 | And, we can change the greeter to pass LDM_SELECTED_SESSION to the environment
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| 06:04 | <vagrantc> so, if someone wants a custom session type, they need to define it on the server, too?
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| 06:04 | <alkisg> Right
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| 06:04 | <vagrantc> they need to actually set up a desktop file?
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| 06:04 | <alkisg> Right
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| 06:05 | We could also implement an LDM_CUSTOM_SESSION, but do we want to?
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| 06:06 | <vagrantc> hrm.
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| 06:06 | <alkisg> I think nx and x2go support it, but they don't have ldminfod to help them
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| 06:06 | So they don't allow custom .desktop files, that's why they support it
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| 06:08 | The good thing with using a desktop file is that one can always have a menu item for it, (with the Name: from the desktop file), translated and all...
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| 06:09 | And it'll keep things cleaner in the future when we start supporting other DMs
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| 06:14 | <vagrantc> so, i tried patching ldm to send only the selected session, but failed.
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| 06:15 | <alkisg> vagrantc: I can try it later on today (gotta leave in an hour or so)
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| 06:16 | <vagrantc> otherwise, desktop selection is basically working right
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| 06:16 | but sounds like you want to change it up a bit
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| 06:17 | <alkisg> Yeah, I don't like the "_DESKTOP" naming, as what I'm seeing in the DM reads "Session"... and using the whole command line for session got me confused the first time I read the .dmrc handling
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| 06:20 | <vagrantc> seems like distinguishing LDM_SELECTED_SESSION from LDM_SESSION would really help a lot.
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| 06:21 | that way, the *only* time we write .dmrc is with LDM_SELECTED_SESSION
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| 06:21 | <alkisg> True, we only want to write .dmrc when an LDM_SELECTED_SESSION is defined (and LDM_FORCE_SESSION doesn't override it)
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| 06:22 | Btw another reason why _DESKTOP might be confusing is the ubuntu package naming, people might think that LDM_DESKTOP="edubuntu-desktop" is valid because such a package exists
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| 06:23 | Let's sum up on what we want to do
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| 06:23 | LDM_SELECTED_SESSION is not an lts.conf variable, it's only set by the greeter
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| 06:23 | <vagrantc> correct.
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| 06:24 | <alkisg> LDM_SESSION keeps both its old meaning for compatibility, but that's deprecated and will only be around for a couple of years, and its new meaning, i.e. the xsession desktop file name
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| 06:24 | <vagrantc> so much so, that it should obliterate the value if set
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| 06:24 | <alkisg> Right
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| 06:24 | <vagrantc> the LDM_SELECTED_SESSION
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| 06:25 | <alkisg> The DM should show up the LDM_SESSION as the preselected one, if possible (I don't think there's code for it now), and the LDM_FORCE_SESSION as the only one available
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| 06:25 | .dmrc overrides LDM_SESSION but not LDM_FORCE_SESSION
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| 06:26 | <vagrantc> if LDM_FORCE_SESSION is set to non-empty, it should just disble the menu.
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| 06:26 | <alkisg> Or show the available sessions grayed out, I don't mind either wy
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| 06:26 | way
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| 06:27 | <vagrantc> whatever's easiest to implement.
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| 06:27 | <alkisg> LDM_SESSION handling is long, we first check .dmrc, then the .desktop file name, then the path if it doesn't have spaces, then run it if it has spaces
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| 06:28 | It's about the same with LDM_SELECTED_SESSION as ldminfod/ldm doesn't pass us the desktop file name
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| 06:28 | Finally, LDM_FORCE_SESSION checking is easy, we just check if the file name exists
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| 06:28 | That's about it?
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| 06:28 | <vagrantc> what to do if LDM_FORCE_SESSION doesn't exist?
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| 06:28 | fail to log in? fall back to whatever?
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| 06:29 | <alkisg> I think we should fail to login with a dialog
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| 06:30 | <vagrantc> sounds good.
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| 06:30 | <alkisg> How to handle the LDM_XSESSION meaning and priority?
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| 06:31 | Does it make sense for someone to define both LDM_XSESSION and LDM_SESSION?
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| 06:31 | <vagrantc> it could.
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| 06:31 | <alkisg> OK so we just prefix it as we do now
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| 06:32 | <vagrantc> though really, *most* people shouldn't mess with LDM_XSESSION
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| 06:32 | it's nothing to do with the selected session, it's your selected /etc/X11/Xsession
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| 06:32 | which, in unusual cases, is valid to change ... some distros may not support other sessions, etc..
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| 06:33 | ah right, ldminfod has an xsession:/etc/X11/Xsession output ...
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| 06:33 | <alkisg> We should also make ldminfod return the desktop file names to LDM, so that it's easier to check for missing sessions (LDM_SESSION, LDM_FORCE_SESSION) before login.
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| 06:33 | <vagrantc> i.e. connecting to a different distro should have ldminfod tell you which LDM_XSESSION to use.
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| 06:34 | <alkisg> Until we do that, LDM_SELECTED_SESSION can't contain a desktop file name, which would be the ideal case
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| 06:34 | <vagrantc> alkisg: we could still log in, but just fail.
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| 06:35 | log in enough to check for the presence of the desktop file.
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| 06:35 | <alkisg> Right, but we can't fix the UI to show the session as missing etc
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| 06:36 | <vagrantc> hence LDM_FORCE_SESSION should just disable it.
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| 06:36 | <alkisg> (before login)
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| 06:36 | <vagrantc> alkisg: well, session-with-name should only return sessions that actually have desktop files.
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| 06:36 | <alkisg> LDM_SESSION (the DEFAULT) should still show the session as preselected in the menu
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| 06:37 | * vagrantc was going to just go ahead and upload earlier, but this sounds so much better. | |
| 06:37 | <alkisg> What I mean is: one sets LDM_SESSION=gnome-fallback. Before login, the greeter can't know if that session is available or not, so it can't have it preselected in the UI
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| 06:37 | <vagrantc> right.
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| 06:38 | so we need another ldminfod entry ...
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| 06:38 | desktop-files: ... session-with-desktop: ?
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| 06:38 | <alkisg> We can add it inside :: and in the parsing phase count the ::
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| 06:38 | (in case we deal with an older ldminfod)
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| 06:38 | <vagrantc> so add it to session-with-name: ?
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| 06:39 | alkisg: this is where you want to maintain backwards compatibility
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| 06:39 | <alkisg> Yeah
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| 06:39 | session-with-name:gnome-fallback:GNOME Classic (No effects):gnome-session --session=gnome-fallback
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| 06:39 | <vagrantc> so old clients can connect to new servers.
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| 06:40 | all the ones i see have binaries with full paths
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| 06:40 | <alkisg> we read 3 values out of this one, but if the last one is empty, we're dealing with an older ldminfod, so we swap 2 vars
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| 06:40 | <vagrantc> alkisg: does the current ldm support adding another : ?
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| 06:40 | without failing badly?
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| 06:41 | <alkisg> Meh, right, newer chroot in an older server, dunno, have to check
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| 06:41 | *older chroot in a newer server, whatever
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| 06:41 | <vagrantc> alkisg: that's why we implemented session-with-name: instead of just adding to session
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| 06:42 | (well, actually people broke session: first)
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| 06:42 | <alkisg> How long ago? Can we start using reusing session for this now?
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| 06:42 | <vagrantc> alkisg: if older ldm can handle an arbitrary number of colons ... we can just keep appending, otherwise a new session-FOO:
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| 06:43 | ah, break compatibility with really old versions ? maybe.
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| 06:44 | <alkisg> session-with-name:GNOME Classic (No effects):gnome-session --session=gnome-fallback ==> I think we can append the desktop name at the end
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| 06:44 | Meh I meant to paste this: session-with-name:GNOME Classic (No effects):gnome-session --session=gnome-fallback
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| 06:44 | meh
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| 06:44 | Something wrong with my copy/paste : val = g_strsplit(lines[i], ":", 2);
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| 06:45 | <vagrantc> december of 2008
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| 06:45 | <alkisg> It only reads the first 2 colon-separated entries so we can add a 3rd one at the end
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| 06:45 | <vagrantc> we did it right
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| 06:46 | <alkisg> I hope no session command line contains : ...
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| 06:46 | <vagrantc> eesh.
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| 06:46 | <alkisg> Where are the session names translated? In the client? Nowhere?
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| 06:47 | Looking ahead in the future, we'd want to genereate .desktop files from init-ltsp.d
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| 06:48 | In the client: /usr/share/xsession/server1-gnome-session.desktop, with Exec='ltsp-launch-session <rest params>'
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| 06:49 | <vagrantc> alkisg: yeah, i don't think we support translated session names.
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| 06:51 | * vagrantc tests the spare : theory | |
| 06:52 | <vagrantc> alkisg: so we'd have to escape colons somehow...
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| 06:53 | if any of the session names, binary names, or desktop file names contain colons
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| 06:53 | hopefully, they just don't.
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| 06:53 | <alkisg> vagrantc: do we do that already for the existing parts?
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| 06:54 | <vagrantc> alkisg: no, but you scared me :P
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| 06:54 | "< alkisg> I hope no session command line contains : ..."
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| 06:55 | <alkisg> Haha. Let's do a quick fix for now, and handle it all better in the new configuration system which will replace lts.conf, ldminfod and ltsp_config
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| 06:55 | I.e. it'll send the whole .desktop files to the clients
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| 06:55 | <vagrantc> the quick fix, or the new idea?
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| 06:56 | <alkisg> The new idea, later on, when we have pamssh etc
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| 06:56 | <vagrantc> LTSP 6 :)
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| 06:56 | <alkisg> Amen :)
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| 06:58 | <vagrantc> alkisg: yup, ldm just seems to ignore the extra colon entries, just like you said :)
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| 06:58 | <alkisg> Cool, so no compatibility problems there
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| 06:58 | <vagrantc> so if we put the desktop filename on the end, it should work.
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| 06:58 | or at least, ldm 2.2.9
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| 06:59 | * vagrantc will test the version in squeeze, too ... 2.1.2 | |
| 07:01 | <vagrantc> that goes back to 2010-04-19 ...
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| 07:01 | so about 2 years ...
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| 07:03 | looks like that version supports session-with-name, and seems to read the colons fine.
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| 07:05 | alkisg: so, if LDM_SESSION isn't a desktop file, should we bother to check for binary location (if full path) or that the binary is in $PATH?
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| 07:06 | alkisg: or do we just let Xsession handle that (i think it falls back to "default" behavior.
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| 07:06 | )
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| 07:07 | <alkisg> (10:06:16 πμ) vagrantc: alkisg: or do we just let Xsession handle that (i think it falls back to "default" behavior. ==> ah if it does, then we needn't bother
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| 07:08 | <vagrantc> and LDM_FORCE_SESSION is just desktop files...
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| 07:08 | <alkisg> Right
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| 07:09 | Actually since we're looking to replace ldm I'm not sure if it's worth it to do the extra ldminfod bits, just in case someone will want to optimize the ldm ui...
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| 07:10 | So we can skip the colons stuff and postpone it for ltsp 6
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| 07:11 | (and there, solve it by downloading the whole session.desktop files)
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| 07:11 | <vagrantc> alkisg: it would definitely provide much cleaner code, though.
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| 07:11 | <alkisg> The new code yes, but we'll keep the old code too, so the mess will be there
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| 07:12 | <vagrantc> alkisg: in order to support older servers?
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| 07:12 | <alkisg> Yeah
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| 07:12 | <vagrantc> like, say an release with a support cycle of 5 years
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| 07:13 | <alkisg> LTSP 6 will be in a couple of years, right? If we'll massively change the configuration system there, we can break backwards compatibility a bit then
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| 07:14 | <vagrantc> alkisg: doh!
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| 07:14 | <alkisg> So if we won't have ldminfod then, why bother making it send the file names now...
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| 07:14 | <vagrantc> alkisg: Xsession: unable to launch "/usr/bin/openbox-session:foo"
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| 07:14 | alkisg: so, at least with 2.1.2, it splits on the first colon ...
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| 07:14 | <alkisg> Ouch. /me votes to skip the colons bit :)
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| 07:14 | <vagrantc> yup
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| 07:17 | is there another location to put .desktop files that we should support ? as an admin, i prefer local customizations in /etc or /usr/local or something.
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| 07:17 | for those custom .desktop files
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| 07:17 | * alkisg looks... | |
| 07:19 | <vagrantc> alkisg: still worth it to implement LDM_SELECTED_SESSION and LDM_FORCE_SESSION and improve LDM_SESSION ?
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| 07:19 | <alkisg> Yes, I think so
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| 07:19 | <vagrantc> newer version also breaks with the extra colons.
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| 07:20 | * vagrantc kills that idea dead. | |
| 07:20 | <vagrantc> although it actually wouldn't be too hard to generate another line...
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| 07:20 | <alkisg> What does ldm return for LDM_SESSION if the user hasn't selected anything and there's no lts.conf?
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| 07:20 | <vagrantc> i think "default"
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| 07:21 | by hasn't got an lts.conf, i presume you mean no LDM_SESSION settings?
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| 07:21 | <alkisg> Yes
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| 07:22 | So, in case we don't want to touch ldm much and don't want to introduce LDM_SELECTED_SESSION, the downside is...
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| 07:22 | ...that if LDM_SESSION is defined in lts.conf, then we set the user's .dmrc, while we shouldn't. Is there any other downside?
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| 07:23 | <vagrantc> that's the main one.
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| 07:23 | <alkisg> That can be mitigated by only writing LDM_SESSION if it's _not_ a desktop file name, and it is an Exec line of a desktop file name
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| 07:23 | So users that adopt the new LDM_SESSION=<desktop file name> scheme won't be affected by the problem
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| 07:24 | ...while for the other ones, the problem did already exists, so they shouldn't mind :P
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| 07:24 | I.e. I think we can get away with only modifying the .dmrc processing script, nothing else
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| 07:24 | And only have 2 variables, LDM_SESSION and LDM_FORCE_SESSION
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| 07:25 | (10:23:19 πμ) alkisg: That can be mitigated by only writing LDM_SESSION if it's _not_ a desktop file name, and it is an Exec line of a desktop file name ==> I meant writing to .dmrc
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| 07:25 | <vagrantc> so LDM_SESSION can be set from lts.conf/the environment ... and from selecting in the LDM greeter menu ...
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| 07:26 | <alkisg> Yes, and if it's only saved if it matches an Exec: line
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| 07:27 | <vagrantc> the only sessions available currently all come from .desktop files ... so that should help.
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| 07:27 | alkisg: i think that's how it currently behaves.
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| 07:28 | alkisg: so the other problem, when LDM_SESSION is set, selecting from the menu will change the session once, write to the .dmrc, but the next time it doesn't respect the change.
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| 07:28 | set from lts.conf
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| 07:28 | <alkisg> .dmrc takes precedence over LDM_SESSION
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| 07:28 | (or, should)
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| 07:29 | <vagrantc> i don't think it does.
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| 07:29 | <alkisg> Let's again sum up what we want:
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| 07:29 | Keep only 2 variables, LDM_SESSION and LDM_FORCE_SESSION. LDM_SESSION can be a session file name set from lts.conf, or an Exec: line set from ldm or lts.conf, or a custom line set from lts.conf.
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| 07:30 | The order is: LDM_FORCE_SESSION > .dmrc > LDM_SESSION
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| 07:30 | And we only write LDM_SESSION to .dmrc if it matches an Exec: line
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| 07:30 | Good enough? I think we can implement that by only modifying the dmrc handling script
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| 07:31 | And in the documentation we mention that using a whole command line is deprecated, but still supported for backwards compatibility
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| 07:32 | <vagrantc> that doesn't allow you to ever change your .dmrc through LDM
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| 07:32 | * alkisg just understood what vagrantc was saying, thinking... | |
| 07:33 | <vagrantc> if .dmrc overrides LDM_SESSION, you can't change your default, except by manually editing .dmrc
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| 07:33 | <alkisg> LDM_FORCE_SESSION > LDM_SESSION (Exec:) > .dmrc > LDM_SESSION (desktop or other)
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| 07:34 | I was thinking about that, but didn't clear it up well in my head before
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| 07:34 | * vagrantc still wants LDM to export LDM_SELECTED_SESSION | |
| 07:34 | <vagrantc> it would be so much clearer.
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| 07:40 | <vagrantc> alkisg: i might almost have this...
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| 07:41 | <alkisg> void __attribute__ ((visibility("default"))) ==> me hates all those stupid C modifiers
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| 07:41 | <muppis> :D
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| 07:42 | <alkisg> vagrantc: plugin.c, line 122: setenv("LDM_SESSION", session, 1); ==> setenv("LDM_SELECTED_SESSION", session, 1);
| |
| 07:42 | I think that's the only change required in ldm
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| 07:43 | <vagrantc> alkisg: already tried that ... it then sets LDM_SELECTED_SESSION=default if nothing is selected
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| 07:44 | <alkisg> vagrantc: that's OK though, we don't mind
| |
| 07:44 | It's the same as if the user has selected default manually, in which case we'd use his .dmrc, or fall back to LDM_SESSION
| |
| 07:45 | (or fall back to the X default session if LDM_SESSION is undefined)
| |
| 07:47 | So, LDM_FORCE_SESSION > LDM_SELECTED_SESSION (!=default) > .dmrc > LDM_SESSION > default X session
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| 07:48 | And we only save .dmrc if LDM_SELECTED_SESSION != default
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| 07:48 | <vagrantc> right.
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| 07:49 | <alkisg> OK, on to implementing it?
| |
| 07:50 | * vagrantc has been. | |
| 07:59 | <vagrantc> alkisg: going to try this: http://paste.debian.net/172759/
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| 08:06 | * vagrantc builds and tests | |
| 08:06 | <alkisg> vagrantc: ...how do I apply a patch? :P
| |
| 08:07 | <vagrantc> alkisg: patch -p0 < patch ?
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| 08:07 | <alkisg> Got it, was trying with a random number, -p2
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| 08:07 | <vagrantc> alkisg: that's the level of subdirs
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| 08:07 | <alkisg> Ah
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| 08:08 | <vagrantc> alkisg: depending on thee patch, it's usually 0 or 1
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| 08:08 | i.e. if it includes ldm-trunk/src/foo.c or just src/foo.c
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| 08:09 | <rkwesk_> Now that some are using ltsp without chroot how is epoptes-client -c going to be setup having only thin client?
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| 08:09 | <alkisg> vagrantc: in the code you pasted you don't take LDM_SESSION into account
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| 08:10 | rkwesk_: with ltsp-pnp we don't have "plain thin client" setups, only setups that support both thin and fat clients
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| 08:10 | <vagrantc> alkisg: if LDM_SESSION is passed through lts.conf, we don't bother with it
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| 08:11 | alkisg: i.e. no save to .dmrc ...
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| 08:11 | <alkisg> vagrantc: we do need to do the desktop -> command line change
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| 08:12 | <vagrantc> alkisg: if LDM_SESSION=desktopfile
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| 08:12 | right ...
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| 08:12 | <alkisg> rkwesk_: so you can just run `epoptes-client -c localhost` on your server
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| 08:12 | <rkwesk_> yes, ok but epoptes-client -c fails to fetch certificate although /etc/hosts has the ip with server
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| 08:12 | <alkisg> rkwesk_: although it's not needed as the keys are already there
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| 08:13 | <rkwesk_> ah, so no need to do epoptes-client -c at all
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| 08:13 | <alkisg> Right
| |
| 08:13 | <rkwesk_> that's one more welcome simplification!!
| |
| 08:16 | another thing i would like 2 raise is restricting the client from opening console or looking at other client's home
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| 08:17 | <alkisg> rkwesk_: I think it's better to teach them to protect their private files with right click => properties
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| 08:18 | rkwesk_: linux is designed such as /home/username is readable, to get the user's .face and other stuff
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| 08:18 | If you really need it, you can execute chmod 700 /home/*
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| 08:18 | <rkwesk_> ok, i just am thinking ahead to mischief makers in lab
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| 08:18 | <alkisg> About restricting the client, I don't think that would work either, I prefer security at a lower level and not at the GUI level
| |
| 08:19 | E.g. someone can press alt+f2 or navigate to a dir an execute a file from nautilus or write nautilus scripts that launch programs or create a .desktop launcher etc etc
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| 08:19 | <rkwesk_> i agree. an inexpierenced sysadmin needs help here
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| 08:19 | <alkisg> Why?
| |
| 08:20 | What can students do to cause harm?
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| 08:20 | <rkwesk_> if in lab and someones alters another's work
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| 08:20 | <alkisg> He doesn't have write rights by default
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| 08:21 | So he won't be able to unless the other user allows him by right clicking the document and changing its attributes to writeable by all
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| 08:21 | <rkwesk_> so each user is in seperate group?
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| 08:21 | <alkisg> Of course
| |
| 08:21 | And there are no write rights to groups either
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| 08:22 | So even if they had the same group, they still wouldn't be able to modify other users's files
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| 08:22 | (unless the other user gave write access to some groups on purpose)
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| 08:22 | <rkwesk_> ok. where does the teacher hide docs he/she does not want read or even that it exists
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| 08:23 | <alkisg> Right click on documents, create "private" folder, right click on folder, remove read rights
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| 08:24 | <rkwesk_> so one needs to teach an inexpierenced teacher/sysadmin how and why
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| 08:25 | <alkisg> Yes, same as in windows XP or before
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| 08:25 | They had to right click and remove [v] Everyone from the access list
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| 08:26 | Their private data like emails is already private, in .* folders
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| 08:26 | <rkwesk_> what about having a private folder created by default? Then we go ahead and explain why
| |
| 08:27 | <alkisg> The "explain why" part is the big part, while making a folder private is the easy part
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| 08:27 | <rkwesk_> the hidden folders are also hidden from the owner at first
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| 08:29 | yes i agree. so many r afraid of technology
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| 08:29 | <alkisg> In the new sch-scripts we'll have a "create shared folders" functionality. We can probably add a "create private folders" UI there.
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| 08:30 | <rkwesk_> anything that simplifies is a positive
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| 08:30 | <alkisg> But I think it's best if both the teacher and the students learn about file rights, if the class is old enough to have students that might cause mischiefs
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| 08:31 | * alkisg would prefer it if all Documents, Desktop, Videos etc folders were private by default, and only the Public folder remained readable by others | |
| 08:31 | <rkwesk_> agreed. i can forsee some eyes rolling, however.
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| 08:32 | <alkisg> But that's an XDG decision to make, I'm not sure if we should default to that.
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| 08:33 | <rkwesk_> best to not reinvent away from common setup
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| 08:34 | just a few simple additions like a private place for anyone who wants it
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| 08:35 | <rkwesk_> then we can explain the role of root
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| 08:35 | and why no one is root unless a specific action is taken
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| 08:38 | apart from the discussion in Athens on this new no chroot ltsp are other places going to hold such workshops?
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| 08:39 | <rkwesk_> anyone here not in Greece interested to hold such an event?
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| 08:40 | <alkisg> rkwesk_: not many people use the new setup yet, it's very new, not available by default in 12.04 . I imagine more people will start using it gradually.
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| 08:40 | In Greece we'll have more workshops and seminars etc over time
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| 08:41 | <rkwesk_> i will be happy 2 help
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| 08:41 | <vlt> tol: Hello.
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| 09:04 | <vagrantc> alkisg: ok, i think we have it ... very similar to your commit a couple ago ... one more test case and then i'll push
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| 09:04 | <alkisg> vagrantc: if you want upload the file to pastebin for me to take a quick look in case we forgot something
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| 09:04 | Also, isn't it time to head to bed? :)
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| 09:05 | <vagrantc> it's a bit past time
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| 09:05 | it's a pastebin pasttime
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| 09:06 | alkisg: http://paste.debian.net/172766/
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| 09:06 | <alkisg> vagrantc: we should also update the comments on top
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| 09:07 | <vagrantc> alkisg: yes, probably so.
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| 09:08 | oh, i haven't tested LDM_FORCE_SESSION
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| 09:09 | though LDM_FORCE_SESSION will just fall back to the defaults if it's not possible to set anything.
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| 09:10 | <alkisg> It seems OK, but testing is the best way to tell :)
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| 09:10 | * alkisg is off, bb | |
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| 15:41 | <garymc> Anone know How I can block all but a few websites for my LTSP users? I can do it via router but then my computer is blocked even though I told the router to only screen the LTSP server
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| 15:42 | Need to get this done cos some people in the office are taking the piss and sitting on Facebook and eating up our bandwidth
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| 15:49 | <knipwim> use a local /etc/host file on each client?
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| 15:57 | <garymc> knipwim is there a more universal way?
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| 15:58 | <knipwim> hmm, i though it was pretty universal, you can maintain it on the server, and download it at client boot time
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| 15:59 | you can probably do it in iptables, some kind of host based blocking, but i wouldn't know how
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| 16:00 | <dead_inside> garymc are you using thin or fat clients? if your using thin you should only need to edit /etc/hosts on the server, if your using fats then you only need to edit /etc/hosts on the image and make sure they dont have any dns servers
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| 16:01 | <garymc> im using FAT
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| 16:01 | dont remeber how to do all that :(
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| 16:08 | <||cw> garymc: you should be able to do it on your router, if it's ignoring your exclusions you either didn't apply it right or it's a router bug
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| 16:09 | <garymc> yeah must be a router bug
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| 16:09 | <garymc> BT hg2700
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| 16:09 | nightmare
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| 16:10 | im gopnna try setup a newer router
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| 16:20 | * vagrantc ponders setting ssh -o CheckHostIP=no | |
| 16:20 | <vagrantc> in ldm by default...
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| 16:21 | <vagrantc> although it didn't actually cause problems now that it checks against hostname ... it just created a /root/.ssh/known_hosts with an entry for the ip address ...
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| 16:27 | rebooting the thin client would be enough to fix that
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| 16:27 | if you did load-balancing by the same name it could cause problems...
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| 16:34 | <vagrantc> ok, i think i'll just tag ldm 2.2.10 as is
| |
| 16:34 | knipwim, stgraber: any desired last minute features in ldm before i tag?
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| 16:34 | * vagrantc waits for the the, stop, stop, hold the press moment | |
| 16:35 | <stgraber> vagrantc: nope, go ahead
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| 16:37 | <vagrantc> do we have any c++ code in ldm?
| |
| 16:39 | stgraber, mgariepy : i've been trying to enable hardened build flags for ldm, and resolved most of them, but i still get this lintian warning: W: ldm: hardening-no-fortify-functions usr/lib/ldm/libssh.so.0.0.0
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| 16:40 | i did have CPPFLAGS imported, but it didn't seem to take effect for that one.
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| 16:45 | <stgraber> it's all in C
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| 16:45 | not sure why the hardening doesn't work for libssh
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| 16:47 | * vagrantc disables CPPFLAGS to see if it works for other stuff. | |
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| 16:48 | * vagrantc is pretty much cargo-culting the hardening stuff | |
| 16:49 | <knipwim> vagrantc: have you seen the "bug report" in the dev mailing list
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| 16:49 | from floris bos
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| 16:50 | <vagrantc> knipwim: oh yeah ...
| |
| 16:50 | wasn't clear to me weather those were worth applying.
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| 16:50 | <knipwim> i can't really judge them, if they should be included or not
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| 16:51 | <vagrantc> i'll apply them and test them. :)
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| 16:53 | <vagrantc> stgraber: so, other binaries, ldm, ldmgtkgreet, ldm-dialog pick up the CPPFLAGS, but for some reason libssh doesn't
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| 16:55 | <vagrantc> stgraber: for the full lintian warning: http://paste.debian.net/172835/
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| 17:08 | * vagrantc wonders about | |
| 17:08 | <vagrantc> greeter.c: In function 'handle_command':
| |
| 17:08 | greeter.c:308:5: warning: 'g_strncasecmp' is deprecated (declared at /usr/include/glib-2.0/glib/gstrfuncs.h:175) [-Wdeprecated-declarations]
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| 17:10 | <mgariepy> stgraber, http://paste.ubuntu.com/1023513/ do you think that should be applied to 12.04 ?
| |
| 17:11 | i have a variable name issue with getltscfg-cluster and client/share/ltsp/init-ltsp.d/04-server
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| 17:11 | <stgraber> mgariepy: yeah, that's definitely a bug, no reason not to fix that in 12.04
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| 17:19 | <mgariepy> stgraber, should i add some patch for the bug ?
| |
| 17:20 | like need-sru ?
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| 17:21 | <stgraber> mgariepy: just give me the bug number
| |
| 17:21 | <mgariepy> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ltsp/+bug/1008618
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| 19:26 | <vagrantc> alkisg: oh-ho!
| |
| 19:26 | <alkisg> Ahoy there
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| 19:27 | <vagrantc> so, i'm trying to disable the display of the session selection when LDM_FORCE_SESSION is set ...
| |
| 19:27 | but just floundering.
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| 19:27 | <alkisg> Whoah, digging into C? :P
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| 19:28 | <vagrantc> http://paste.debian.net/172868/
| |
| 19:28 | <alkisg> vagrantc: I'll check the code a bit and see if I can understand anything (/me hasn't used glib yet)... did you try the ML patches? That guy seemed like he knew what he was talking about...
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| 19:30 | <vagrantc> alkisg: yeah, those patches seem to at least not break anything. :)
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| 19:31 | <alkisg> vagrantc: + if (getenv('LDM_FORCE_SESSION') != NULL)
| |
| 19:31 | Not ==
| |
| 19:31 | Err
| |
| 19:31 | Sorry
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| 19:32 | <vagrantc> alkisg: but i only want it to include the menu if LDM_FORCE_SESSION is not set
| |
| 19:32 | <alkisg> vagrantc: double quotes
| |
| 19:32 | "LDM_FORCE_SESSION"
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| 19:32 | <vagrantc> doh!
| |
| 19:32 | <alkisg> Single quotes are for characters only
| |
| 19:32 | (single characters, I mean)
| |
| 19:32 | <vagrantc> so used to using them mostly interchangeably
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| 19:34 | <alkisg> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ltsp/+bug/282884 => Lns also asked for an option to disable the language menu too
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| 19:35 | <vagrantc> alkisg: yes, i vaguely recalled that
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| 19:41 | * alkisg wonders how easy it would be, if the user enters a wrong username/password, to not restart ldm... | |
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| 19:44 | <vagrantc> just restart the greeter?
| |
| 19:44 | alkisg: i seem to recall some concern about values being selected from the previous session
| |
| 19:45 | i don't really remember the details
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| 19:45 | <alkisg> vagrantc: no need to restart the greeter, just ask for the username/password a second time
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| 19:46 | <alkisg> OK if there's such a concern, we could restart the greeter, but I don't see any reason to restart X just for a wrong password...
| |
| 19:47 | <vagrantc> cuz we too dumb.
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| 19:48 | alkisg: oh, i think it's because there's no way to know what's wrong, hence scotty's libpam/libnss modules
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| 19:49 | alkisg: the double-quotes did it!
| |
| 19:49 | * vagrantc checks to make sure it works properly when LDM_FORCE_SESSION is not set. | |
| 19:49 | <alkisg> vagrantc: if the user logged in, we restart X when ldm finishes, if he didn't login, no need to restart it, afaik
| |
| 19:49 | <vagrantc> if so, we can also easily solve LNS's wishlist request, too.
| |
| 19:50 | alright. cool.
| |
| 19:50 | * vagrantc did something. | |
| 19:53 | * vagrantc wonders about variable names for the menu-disabling features | |
| 19:53 | <alkisg> ...cool, time to add "C programming" in your resume ;)
| |
| 19:54 | <vagrantc> i've done other such trivial patches before :)
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| 19:54 | <alkisg> vagrantc: isn't LDM_FORCE_SESSION enough? Do you think another variable is needed?
| |
| 19:54 | (and, LDM_FORCE_LANGUAGE...)
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| 19:55 | <vagrantc> LDM_FORCE_LANGUAGE, LDM_FORCE_BACKEND ?
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| 19:55 | <alkisg> LDM_FORCE_BACKEND already exists
| |
| 19:55 | <vagrantc> oh.
| |
| 19:55 | * vagrantc should learn about grep | |
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| 19:57 | <alkisg> vagrantc: I think that ldm exits(1) on failure, and exits(0) when the user managed to log in - I think we can use that from the shell script to respawn it without restarting X
| |
| 19:58 | * vagrantc wonders where the backend setting code is | |
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| 20:11 | <alkisg> Meh making ldm restart only after successful login was easy. Making the Ubuntu logo go away without restarting X is the hard part! Nah, I don't want to invest on LDM that much... :-/
| |
| 20:12 | (i.e. the logo was there inside the user session)
| |
| 20:12 | (on the second login)
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| 20:13 | <vagrantc> alkisg: as in you think we should push, or it's too buggy?
| |
| 20:13 | oh, i see.
| |
| 20:14 | * vagrantc notices LDM_DEFAULT_BACKEND | |
| 20:14 | <vagrantc> hmmm...
| |
| 20:15 | <alkisg> There's a bug report related to the backend menu item being untranslatable because it's not in the gtk template file etc
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| 20:15 | https://bugs.launchpad.net/ltsp/+bug/967475
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| 20:15 | <vagrantc> apparently, LDM_FORCE_BACKEND does remove it from the menu
| |
| 20:16 | * vagrantc test LDM_FORCE_LANGUAGE | |
| 20:16 | <vagrantc> and then i think i'll upload.
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| 20:17 | <alkisg> vagrantc: I think we should also push the ML patches, the "use timeout box before initialization" sounds a bit scary
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| 20:18 | <vagrantc> yes, in progress
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| 20:39 | <vagrantc> stgraber: does this commit have a LP bug associated to it?
| |
| 20:39 | 1434 Stéphane Graber 2012-04-30
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| 20:39 | ldminfod: If Hidden=true or TryExec points to an invalid target, hide the entry.
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| 20:40 | <stgraber> vagrantc: yes
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| 20:40 | vagrantc: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ldm/+bug/991745
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| 20:40 | <vagrantc> stgraber: thanks.
| |
| 20:41 | wanted to include it in the changelog
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| 20:45 | alkisg: so, apparently there's a per-package substvars file.
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| 20:46 | alkisg: i.e. debian/ltsp-client-core.substvars
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| 20:46 | <alkisg> vagrantc: and, example content?
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| 20:46 | <vagrantc> alkisg: so now it's just a matter of figuring out when to insert stuff into them.
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| 20:46 | <alkisg> misc:ltsp=package1,package2 etc?
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| 20:47 | <vagrantc> cat ltsp-server.substvars
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| 20:47 | misc:Depends=debconf (>= 0.5) | debconf-2.0
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| 20:47 | <alkisg> Ah autogenerated right
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| 20:47 | <vagrantc> i think is: value: foo | bar, baz
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| 20:48 | so we could have: ltsp-server.substvars contain ubuntu: x, y, x \n debian: x, z
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| 20:48 | or probably more like ubuntu-depends, debian-recommends
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| 20:49 | and tweak it somewhere in debian/rules
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| 20:50 | or simply put in ltsp-depends: and change it from debian/rules
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| 20:58 | <alkisg> vagrantc: http://raphaelhertzog.com/2010/09/27/different-dependencies-between-debian-and-ubuntu-but-common-source-package/
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| 20:58 | Haha this is fun: dpkg-vendor --derives-from Ubuntu && echo yes
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| 21:02 | <vagrantc> alkisg: that looks easy for a single source package that builds a single binary ...
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| 21:03 | alkisg: but having to invole the dh_gencontrol multiple times with different packages seems tricky...
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| 21:03 | invoke
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| 21:12 | alkisg: ok, i think i found the proper fix to your debuild -tc problem.
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| 21:13 | <alkisg> vagrantc: bzr2301+pkg1129 built fine on launchpad though :)
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| 21:14 | <vagrantc> alkisg: did you work around it, or did it just start working?
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| 21:14 | <alkisg> Didn't you say you did something?
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| 21:14 | It started working, I didn't do anything...
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| 21:14 | <vagrantc> alkisg: i did something that shouldn't have fixed it, and didn't fix it for me.
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| 21:15 | <alkisg> vagrantc: maybe it doesn't fix it for debuild -b -tc, I haven't tried, but it worked on launchpad, whereas previous packaging versions didn't work
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| 21:15 | <vagrantc> huh.
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| 21:15 | <alkisg> So I no longer need to maintain an ltsp-packaging launchpad branch just for that, I use yours instead :P
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| 21:16 | <alkisg> Click on the recipe, and in 8 hours the new ltsp package is built, awesome :D
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| 21:17 | <vagrantc> that's a bit ... slow
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| 21:43 | <alkisg> Yeah it is slow, it was supposed to be a joke... sometimes it builds fast, on e.g. 20 minutes, sometimes super slow, 20+ hours...
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| 22:10 | <alkisg> vagrantc: maybe this?
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| 22:10 | Depends: ${${dist}:depends}
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| 22:10 | dpkg-gencontrol -Vdist=$detected_dist
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| 22:10 | And in package.substvars:
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| 22:10 | ubuntu:depends=packages
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| 22:10 | debian:depends=packages
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| 22:10 | <vagrantc> alkisg: no, the problem is on a per-package basis
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| 22:11 | alkisg: not ubuntu vs. debian
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| 22:11 | <alkisg> vagrantc: you can have multiple package.substvars
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| 22:11 | * vagrantc will look into it after finishing up ldm 2.2.10-1 upload | |
| 22:11 | <alkisg> ltsp-client-core.substvars, ltsp-client.substvars etc...
| |
| 22:12 | Sure
| |
| 22:12 | <vagrantc> alkisg: the instructions talk about calling dh_gencontrol -- -Vfoo:Depends="foo | bar, baz"
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| 22:13 | which i don't see a sane way to do that per-package ... but maybe you don't have to specify -V if the package.substvars files have the right stuff in them.
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| 22:13 | <alkisg> That's to define additional vars, but you can also have substvars files, at least that's what man deb-substvars says
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| 22:13 | * vagrantc hopes so | |
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| 22:17 | <vagrantc> oh, i think this upload should fix a debian bug too ...
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| 22:17 | * vagrantc stops the presses | |
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| 22:21 | <vagrantc> or maybe nnot ... i'll just ask them to confirm if it's fixed.
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| 22:30 | <vagrantc> ldm 2.2.10 tagged, pushed and uploaded.
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| 22:40 | <alkisg> Nice work :)
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| 22:40 | 4.10 Variable substitutions: debian/substvars
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| 22:40 | The debian/substvars file is usually generated and modified dynamically by debian/rules targets, in which case it must be removed by the clean target.
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| 22:41 | <vagrantc> alkisg: where's that from?
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| 22:41 | <alkisg> http://www.debian.org/doc/debian-policy/ch-source.html
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| 22:42 | <vagrantc> sounded like policy.
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| 22:42 | <alkisg> So we could easily create different debian/ltsp-xx.substvars files from debian rules (contents depending on the distro), but I think that'll also work with static files as well
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| 22:43 | <vagrantc> alkisg: we need to append, not just create, in case one of the other hooks already added to it.
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| 22:43 | <alkisg> (what I proposed at first)
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| 22:43 | <vagrantc> it won't work with static files if they get removed on the clean target.
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| 22:45 | * highvoltage notices new ldm with session stuff uploaded to debian :) | |
| 22:46 | <alkisg> I wonder if we could also put them as X-ubuntu-depends: lines in debian/control, so that they're all together in the same file, and extract them with a small script, and append them to substvars.
| |
| 22:47 | <vagrantc> alkisg: there's a certain elegance there ...
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| 22:47 | alkisg: although at that point you might just want to use control.in and do some sed-magic on it.
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| 22:48 | <alkisg> Ah, true, that would be easier
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| 22:48 | <vagrantc> you also can't technically modify debian/control at build time, at least in Debian.
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| 22:48 | if our diff is fairly small, i'd like to go with substvars.
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| 22:48 | or at least try it out.
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| 22:48 | <alkisg> With X-ubuntu-depends you don't need to modify the control file
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| 22:49 | <vagrantc> alkisg: and it will just get ignored in the generated package?
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| 22:49 | <alkisg> I think so, don't X-* vars get ignored?
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| 22:49 | <vagrantc> alkisg: people grumble about arbitrary cruft in the control files.
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| 22:49 | <alkisg> OK
| |
| 22:50 | Is control.in something widely used?
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| 22:50 | <vagrantc> alkisg: X-* get ignored by certain tools ... but there's nothing like experimentation.
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| 22:50 | <vagrantc> alkisg: control.in or something similar is definitely used fairly often, although it's implemented a hundred different ways.
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| 22:53 | <alkisg> vagrantc: http://www.debian.org/doc/debian-policy/ch-controlfields.html, last paragraph
| |
| 23:00 | <vagrantc> alkisg: so, in theory, we could add X-Ubuntu-Depends and X-Debian-Depends, have debian/rules grab those values and stick them in the appropriate substvars files?
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| 23:00 | alkisg: and it wouldn't show up anywhere else?
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| 23:00 | <alkisg> vagrantc: right, and what I like about it is that it's very easy to see the differences
| |
| 23:00 | Yup
| |
| 23:00 | <vagrantc> it is a most excellent idea if we can get it to work! :)
| |
| 23:02 | * alkisg tests if lintian or other tools produce warnings about X-Debian-Depends:... | |
| 23:05 | <alkisg> All seem fine
| |
| 23:06 | <vagrantc> grep-dctrl -F Package -X ltsp-server --show-field X-Debian-Depends control
| |
| 23:06 | will get us the values
| |
| 23:06 | <alkisg> Whoah, nice one
| |
| 23:08 | <vagrantc> grep-dctrl -F Package -X ltsp-server --show-field X-Debian-Depends --no-field-names control
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| 23:09 | <alkisg> (correct output, and): grep-dctrl: control:72: expected a colon
| |
| 23:09 | A space instead of an empty line
| |
| 23:11 | <vagrantc> yeah, i'm getting that too
| |
| 23:11 | <alkisg> vagrantc: grep -n ' $' control
| |
| 23:11 | 3 lines need fixing
| |
| 23:11 | <vagrantc> oh.
| |
| 23:12 | <alkisg> (we should do that in ltsp sources as well some time)
| |
| 23:13 | * alkisg didn't know about grep-dctrl, the solution now seems even more elegant :) | |
| 23:13 | * vagrantc is good for something | |
| 23:13 | <vagrantc> alkisg: this is a really good idea.
| |
| 23:15 | * alkisg hopes that soon Ubuntu will use the Debian LTSP package as is | |
| 23:16 | <vagrantc> alkisg: if we can resolve the differences in desired dependencies, what are the remaining issues?
| |
| 23:17 | <alkisg> ltsp cluster, ltsp live and the ltsp-client-builder differences
| |
| 23:17 | But I think stgraber wants to extract ltsp-live to a separate package,
| |
| 23:17 | and the rest should be easy enough to merge
| |
| 23:17 | <vagrantc> probably ab good idea with ltsp-cluster, too
| |
| 23:18 | <alkisg> Yeah I'd like that too
| |
| 23:18 | <vagrantc> we've dirverged quite a bit with ltsp-client-builder, last i looked.
| |
| 23:18 | that could arguably be it's own source package as well, though.
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| 23:24 | * alkisg ==> pumpkin, very good work these days :) | |
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