IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.libera.chat (webchat)
Channel log from 11 December 2013 (all times are UTC)
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| 00:22 | <gdi2k> hi, we are using VOIP apps (linphone, skype) as local apps on our thin clients (not fat). we are having trouble with voice clarity, especially high frequency S hiss getting clipped and sounding fuzzy. This happens on a range of VOIP clients and codecs (including wideband) so I am thinking it is down to Pulse Audio settings. Any suggestions how I may be able to fix this?
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| 00:24 | <vagrantc> fatclients?
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| 00:25 | <gdi2k> no, thin clients, VOIP clients are local apps
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| 00:25 | <vagrantc> i am suggesting to use fatclients
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| 00:25 | <gdi2k> oh I see hehe
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| 00:25 | <vagrantc> since they would likely use a more conventional pulseaudio configuration
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| 00:25 | <gdi2k> our clients are pretty crusty, I don't think they would deliver a good desktop experience at this stage
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| 00:26 | here's the effect at narrow band phone quality (ulaw): http://ge.tt/9uPt1i61/v/0
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| 00:27 | it seems like it's clipping the high frequency ranges to me
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| 00:27 | output quality is fine though, it's just the recording quality that's an issue
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| 00:29 | <vagrantc> the way we use pulseaudio in LTSP is discouraged... so for the future we're looking at doing things differently, which doesn't help much right now...
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| 00:29 | <gdi2k> I see - are there any settings I can play with anywhere?
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| 00:30 | I know standard pulse allows you to change the way audio conversion works etc. (CPU vs quality trade off)
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| 00:31 | maybe it's even compressing before sending over the network? I also feel there's more latency than there needs to be, but that may be a different issue
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| 00:42 | <gdi2k> or maybe there's a way to bypass pulse for the VOIP clients somehow? Can I just get also working on the clients, and force the clients to use alsa, but other apps to use Pulse? We really need general audio working as well as the voice clients
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| 00:42 | (especially considering all voip apps are local and no other apps are)
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| 00:51 | for others seeking information about how pulse is implemented in ltsp, pulse settings are under client's chroot in /usr/share/ltsp/ltsp-init-common - I will play with these
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| 02:56 | <alkisg> gdi2k: try removing --resample-method=trivial in $CHROOT//usr/share/ltsp/ltsp-init-common
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| 02:57 | <gdi2k> alkisg, what will it default to? speex?
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| 02:57 | <alkisg> man pulseaudio :)
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| 02:57 | or /j #pulseaudio and ask :)
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| 02:57 | <gdi2k> man pulse audio is a headache sometimes! hehe
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| 02:58 | <alkisg> man pulse-daemon.conf, actually...
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| 02:59 | "Defaults to speex-float-3"
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| 03:01 | <gdi2k> side note; I have analyzed a sample recorded from one of the clients and found it's frequency range to cap out at exactly 8000Hz, which explains the issue I am having. I don't think the different methods of resampling methods would cause that
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| 03:01 | *its
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| 03:02 | <alkisg> Do you mean that running pulseaudio locally would have the same quality on that client?
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| 03:02 | *normally, not with ltsp
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| 03:03 | <gdi2k> I run pulse audio on my desktop and do not suffer that issue. I have done a recording which had in excess of 15000 Hz recorded with my webcam mic
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| 03:03 | <alkisg> Is that the same mic you're using on the clients?
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| 03:03 | <gdi2k> no the mics on the clients are far superior - high quality headsets from plantronics, but we've also tried some consumer headsets from logitech and it's the same thing
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| 03:05 | <alkisg> So what do you think is the cause for cutting off sound frequencies, if not the resampling method?
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| 03:06 | I don't think pulse running over the network could cause loss of frequencies, so I can't think of anything other than the client cpu and resample method are to blame
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| 03:07 | <gdi2k> I don't know at this stage - I'm going to have to do more experiments
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| 03:08 | <alkisg> The trivial method is bound to cut off frequencies, but without exact measurements I don't know how much of them
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| 03:08 | <gdi2k> I will report back though, maybe it's something that can be easily corrected
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| 03:08 | yes, but I wouldn't have thought it would cut at such an essential frequency
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| 03:08 | 30,000Hz I could understand, but not 8000
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| 03:08 | that's where all the Ss and Ts are heard
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| 03:09 | <alkisg> It surely doesn't do FFT, so it surely wouldn't care about 8000 or 30000
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| 03:09 | <gdi2k> (which is why it's hard to differentiate an S from an F on POTS)
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| 03:09 | <alkisg> Also I don't think the human ear can listen to more then 20KHz
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| 03:12 | <gdi2k> yes, possibly, I was exaggerating. but my dog could tell the difference. testing trivial on my machine now...
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| 03:21 | <gdi2k> alexqwesa, on my desktop machine, using trivial makes things sound worse, but there is no frequency clipping. I recorded some music playing via a monitor device, and the whole range is there to 23000 Hz
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| 03:24 | sorry, messaged wrong person, that was for alkisg
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| 03:24 | <alkisg> :)
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| 03:24 | Try changing ltsp-init-common
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| 03:25 | <gdi2k> I'll have to wait for that as machines are all in use and I don't want to screw anything up. I will report back though when I do
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| 03:25 | <alkisg> gdi2k: you can change it dynamically on a single client instead of on the server, if it helps
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| 03:25 | <gdi2k> ok - how can I do that?
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| 03:25 | <alkisg> Put ltsp.break=50-fstab in the kernel command line to get a shell at client boot
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| 03:25 | (pxelinux.cfg/default)
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| 03:26 | Then just vi ltsp-init-common
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| 03:26 | Which distro/version btw?
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| 03:27 | <gdi2k> xubuntu 12.10
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| 03:27 | <alkisg> OK, that will work there
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| 03:27 | <gdi2k> ok, will give that a go - once I've changed the file, do I restart?
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| 03:28 | <alkisg> No, type exit to continue booting
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| 03:28 | stgraber: recent plymouth versions no longer need plymouth:force-splash, I'll remove it from update-kernels.conf, ok?
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| 03:28 | <gdi2k> ok
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| 03:30 | <stgraber> alkisg: sure
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| 03:30 | <alkisg> stgraber: would you also consider us removing plymouth from the initramfs?
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| 03:31 | It's causing a few problems with e.g. ltsp.break=50-fstab, and it increases the initramfs size a lot,
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| 03:31 | resulting in a bigger time downloading it via tftp...
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| 03:31 | (by default it's not included in the initramfs in ubuntu, afaik...)
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| 03:31 | If you want specific numbers, I can provide them
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| 03:31 | <stgraber> alkisg: yeah, I think the main reason for that was to make the boot prettier when we had a lot of modeset changes, but that was a while ago.
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| 03:32 | nowadays we only include it in the initrd when using encryption on Ubuntu, so that's probably fine to drop from ltsp
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| 03:32 | <alkisg> stgraber: cool, I'll test and remove it if I don't find any downsides
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| 03:32 | Thanks
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| 03:48 | Size drops from 26719243 to 19530498 without FRAMEBUFFER=y
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| 03:50 | (initrd.img-3.12.0-7-generic)
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| 04:27 | <alkisg> Yey, ltsp.break works again :)
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| 04:28 | stgraber, vagrantc: would you mind if we didn't recommend cryptsetup in ubuntu, and only leave it as the recommented on debian?
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| 04:28 | It forces plymouth into the initramfs, breaks ltsp.break etc
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| 04:29 | Plymouth isn't yet the default on debian, so that difference in recommends: I think is justified...
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| 04:29 | <vagrantc> well, i'm not inclined to force things on other distros... :)
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| 04:30 | <alkisg> vagrantc: our current X-something infrastructure in debian/control makes that easy, right?
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| 04:30 | <vagrantc> alkisg: yup
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| 04:30 | <alkisg> Cool, stgraber, would you agree? ^
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| 04:30 | <vagrantc> X-Debian-Recommends: cryptsetup
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| 04:31 | * vagrantc hasn't kept the all depends/recommends for ltsp-client as suggests for ltsp-client-core ... but suggests are kind of pointless, really. | |
| 04:33 | <alkisg> vagrantc: I forgot, why don't we merge those 2 packages?
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| 04:33 | <vagrantc> in order to make it possible to not install all features...
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| 04:34 | <alkisg> Isn't "recommends" enough for that?
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| 04:34 | <vagrantc> it's technically possible for recommends to not be installed, even though they might install by default
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| 04:35 | <alkisg> Right, so someone could use it to avoid things he doesn't want installed...
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| 04:35 | <vagrantc> so you could have an ltsp setup with missing features. with hard dependencies, it ensures all features are present
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| 04:35 | <alkisg> I don't get it... what are the possible use cases?
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| 04:35 | 1) I want an ltsp client with all the features => ok I get that use case. Any other ones?
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| 04:36 | <vagrantc> as the maintainer/troubleshooter, i want to make sure all the features are present unless they've gone out of their way to do something differently.
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| 04:36 | <alkisg> OK, so put them in depends:
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| 04:36 | And if they really want to go out of their way, they could dpkg -r them...
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| 04:37 | <vagrantc> meh.
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| 04:37 | that's disasterous.
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| 04:37 | <alkisg> I think what I'm missing is this: "in which use case would one only install ltsp-client-core?"
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| 04:37 | <vagrantc> cases without X
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| 04:38 | use it a lot at freegeek for console only hardware testing
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| 04:41 | <alkisg> vagrantc: thanks, makes sense, sorry I was looking at the package description of ltsp-client in Ubuntu which didn't mention "graphical environment" etc :)
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| 04:42 | Ubuntu should try more to minimize its packaging diff from debian :D
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| 04:47 | <alkisg> vagrantc: on second look, ubuntu currently doesn't recommend cryptsetup, so there's no need for stgraber's approval, I think greek schools are the only users of your debian packaging, as built on ubuntu/launchpad
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| 04:48 | So, could you please make that X-Debian-Recommends: cryptsetup change, so that it's removed by default from greek schools/
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| 04:48 | ?
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| 04:49 | If you could commit that today, I could request a build on launchpad and do all the plymouth-related tests properly for both 14.04 and 12.04, with the latest ltsp code...
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| 05:22 | <alkisg> bbiab
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| 06:19 | <tfdl> Hello, I have about 60 ltsp client machines that I would like to remote restart via a bash script, can you please point me to some source?
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| 06:20 | <alkisg> !epoptes | echo tfdl:
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| 06:20 | <ltsp> tfdl: epoptes: Epoptes is a computer lab administration and monitoring tool. It works on Ubuntu and Debian based labs with LTSP or non-LTSP servers, thin and fat clients, standalone workstations, NX clients etc. More info: http://www.epoptes.org
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| 06:20 | <tfdl> hi alkisg, long time no see :)
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| 06:21 | <alkisg> Hi tfdl
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| 06:21 | <tfdl> things have been going so well with ltsp at our school library ;)
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| 06:21 | <alkisg> You can get the wol.py script from there, or you could use the wakeonlan utility
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| 06:22 | <tfdl> you showed us epoptes have been using it but i want to write a bash script.
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| 06:22 | <alkisg> Just get the mac addresses and use them with wol.py or wakeonlan
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| 06:23 | <tfdl> i have 60 clients (60 ips) i can ssh in and reboot but i want to automate this process
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| 06:23 | ok, i do have 60 mac addresses too.
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| 06:23 | <alkisg> Ah sorry I thought "start", not reboot
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| 06:23 | <tfdl> i mean reboot
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| 06:23 | <alkisg> OK
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| 06:23 | Do you have passwordless ssh access to the clients?
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| 06:24 | <tfdl> we have been using wol in epoptes.
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| 06:24 | i have password
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| 06:24 | not passwordless
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| 06:24 | <alkisg> Can you do it with passwordless? If not, you'd need to use "expect"
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| 06:24 | <tfdl> i can try to configure passwordless
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| 06:25 | but dont know how even
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| 06:25 | chroot
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| 06:25 | <alkisg> Googling for passwordless ssh should tell you... you basically need ssh-copy-id
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| 06:25 | <tfdl> ok
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| 06:25 | got that
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| 06:25 | so what to do after passwordless
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| 06:26 | <alkisg> Do a loop for `ssh client reboot`...
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| 06:26 | <tfdl> ok
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| 06:26 | i see
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| 06:26 | i will try put together a script for that
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| 06:27 | you know the utility ltspinfo reboot?
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| 06:27 | <alkisg> ltsp-info is about getting information, not about rebooting
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| 06:27 | <tfdl> read it from this very old 2004 http://www.redhat.com/archives/k12osn/2004-August/msg00773.html
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| 06:27 | ok
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| 06:27 | thanks
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| 06:28 | <alkisg> Nah that's for ltsp 4
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| 06:28 | It doesn't exist in ltsp 5
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| 06:28 | <tfdl> good, passwordless + a loop thru a list of ips
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| 06:28 | thanks
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| 06:29 | <alkisg> np
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| 06:29 | <tfdl> i like to do things right way and its good i got pointer from you, good nite!
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| 06:29 | <alkisg> Good morning :)
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| 06:29 | <tfdl> thanks again, and i will come back to write review on ltsp.org after all the project is done.
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| 06:31 | this company failed on the project that i have now replaced with ltsp, and they were so impressed by ltsp, http://www.sharpsav.com/
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| 07:01 | <alkisg> stgraber: on fast systems, it takes e.g. 20 seconds to reach the real file system, then plymouth appears for a couple of seconds, and then ldm appears... do we mind that plymouth will appear only for a couple of seconds there?
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| 07:01 | * alkisg doesn't :) | |
| 07:01 | <alkisg> Also, plymouth adds about 4 seconds to boot time, with the initramfs size, its udev blocking, the upstart events etc...
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| 07:02 | *plymouth launched from the initramfs
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| 07:57 | <vagrantc> alkisg: made the cryptsetup change
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| 07:58 | <alkisg> vagrantc: thanks!!
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| 07:58 | vagrantc: http://askubuntu.com/questions/371777/dmesg-mounting-takes-longer-in-lubuntu-than-in-debian
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| 07:58 | I see that in ltsp too, it lags 10 seconds waiting for nothing in ubuntu...
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| 07:59 | [ 3.740100] Switched to clocksource tsc
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| 07:59 | [ 14.208118] PM: Hibernation image not present or could not be loaded.
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| 07:59 | [ 14.208885] Freeing unused kernel memory: 864K (c19ac000 - c1a84000)
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| 08:00 | That's before even `break=top`, so nothing I can do but ping the ubuntu kernel devs, or switch to debian... :D
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| 08:00 | <vagrantc> the kernel in ubuntu are simply huge by comparison to debian
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| 08:00 | <vagrantc> saves me the trouble switching away from debian to ubuntu and back to debian
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| 08:01 | i first noticed it when powerpc64 stopped network booting on ubuntu again... because the kernel is over 25MB
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| 08:01 | or something like that
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| 08:02 | the comprable kernel on debian was 12MB or so
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| 08:02 | so there are significant differences in the actual kernel, at least i'd hope so for a kernel twice the size :)
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| 08:04 | * alkisg hopes he'll find enough time at some point to create a debian live/install cd for greek schools instead of an ubuntu one... | |
| 08:06 | <alkisg> Maybe at debconf ;)
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| 08:14 | * vagrantc hopes | |
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| 10:52 | <biomorph> Hi All...... I am getting the problem reported in https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ltspfs/+bug/1021579 I can't find a solution to it. Anybody else got a fix or workaround?
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| 17:44 | <alkisg> stgraber: plymouth --quit --retain-splash no longer works in 14.04, so with plymouth not in the initramfs, the ubuntu logo only shows up for a couple of seconds or even not at all on fast clients. Of course on slower clients it shows up more.
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| 17:44 | I don't mind about that, the 6 mb initramfs size saving is more significant, as are the other issues like ltsp.break, increased boot times etc with plymouth in the initramfs
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| 17:45 | So, if noone objects, I'll delete initramfs-tools/conf-hooks.d/ltsp (=> FRAMEBUFFER=y)
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| 18:20 | <alkisg> plymouth:force-splash is no longerneeded,
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| 18:21 | and afaik vt.handoff=7 was never useful with pxelinux without the colored background of grub
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| 18:21 | So we can go back to "quiet splash" as we were in Lucid...
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| 18:42 | <highvoltage> hey alkisg
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| 18:42 | <alkisg> Hi highvoltage
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| 18:42 | * vagrantc waves to highvoltage | |
| 18:42 | <highvoltage> I got your messages regarding those menus, just been really insanely busy getting end of year things out of the way
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| 18:43 | I think the current best place to fix that is in the ubuntu packaging, gnome-flashback isn't currently in debian (although someone is working on it)
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| 18:43 | o/ vagrantc
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| 18:43 | <alkisg> highvoltage: that file is the same for gnome-shell though, isn't it?
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| 18:44 | ...and that's the reason it got broken... afaik...
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| 18:44 | <highvoltage> alkisg: not sure, one of the things I want to check first, might just change the path upstream and provide a seperate file
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| 18:45 | <alkisg> Nice, because I fear that we'll have a hard time upstreaming any changes that benefit gnome-flashback if they originated in gnome-shell...
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| 18:50 | <vagrantc> is gnome-flashback one of the many implementations to try and modernize a gnome2-like interface but using gnome3 libs?
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| 18:50 | like MATE?
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| 18:50 | cinnamin?
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| 18:51 | <highvoltage> vagrantc: neither, it's a continuation of the gnome-fallback code that existed since gnome 3.
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| 18:52 | <vagrantc> that gnome upstream abandoned?
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| 18:52 | <highvoltage> cinnamon is a set of plugins on top of gnome 3 that provides a more traditional desktop. mate is a complete fork of all of gnome 2 (including all libraries, image viewers, file browser, etc)
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| 18:53 | vagrantc: yes
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| 18:53 | vagrantc: I'm more in favor of both mate and xfce over gnome-flashback
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| 18:53 | <vagrantc> but keep your options open
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| 18:53 | <highvoltage> vagrantc: the problem with both are that they introduce many, many dependencies
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| 18:53 | <vagrantc> hrm.
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| 18:54 | <highvoltage> vagrantc: where gnome-flashback currently needs like, 3 extra small packages to be able to ship it in edubuntu along with unity
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| 18:54 | <vagrantc> i need to remember to change the recommends: gnome-session in ldm-server ... it just plain isn't a good choice for LTSP anymore.
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| 18:54 | <highvoltage> vagrantc: mate is making it's way into debian, so I think gnome-flashback will soon be completely obsolete in debian
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| 18:55 | <vagrantc> highvoltage: eventually making it's way, yes...much to my surprise.
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| 18:55 | * vagrantc wonders if it'll be in testing in 6-8 months | |
| 18:55 | <highvoltage> vagrantc: mate would actually make a lot of sense on ltsp (and also edubuntu). but it's big to ship alongside unity.
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| 18:56 | vagrantc: if it was just up do me I would probably drop unity from edubuntu. but there's a lot of reasons that would be hard
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| 18:56 | <vagrantc> sure
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| 18:57 | <highvoltage> the biggest probably that the project wouldn't be able to support that DE in ubuntu by itself, edubuntu is spread too thin atm
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| 18:57 | not sure if stgraber would ever +1 removing unity either, we haven't explored that topic yet
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| 18:58 | <highvoltage> I don't like the Unity dash at all. It's a usability abomination. Users just don't understand it or know how to find apps
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| 18:58 | * highvoltage stops babbling | |
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| 18:59 | <kev_j> apt-
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| 18:59 | whoops
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| 18:59 | sorry
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| 19:04 | <stgraber> highvoltage: for 14.04, I very much intend to stick to unity by default with gnome-flashback available (and having flashback as default for LTSP). For 16.04, we'll see, I expect a lot to change in 2 years.
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| 19:05 | either way, we can be pretty sure that we won't have compiz in 16.04 anymore so quite a bit of the current problems will disappear (and very possibly be replaced by some others)
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| 19:06 | <highvoltage> stgraber: *nod* for all of that
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| 19:07 | stgraber: I don't think that current unity and flashback are going to be preferable for 5 years, but it's probably the best current option until the the next LTS arrives
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| 19:08 | I need to figure out my future with edubuntu as well. I took the next 2 days off for that and other things. there's just a torrent of cool things happening but not enough attention for all of it :)
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| 19:09 | <stgraber> highvoltage: yeah... I know the feeling... I hope to get some edubuntu-server stuff done over christmas, ideally coming up with a plan of what we'll actually be able to ship in 14.04.
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| 19:10 | <highvoltage> stgraber: that would be awesome. I'm on leave then but not going on holiday so will be glad to test, etc
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| 19:10 | <stgraber> highvoltage: I think I want something that's as easy to install as possible but only support a subset of scenario and a subset of features for 14.04. Basically enough to get people interested, get early adopters and get the real large scale production release for 16.04.
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| 19:11 | highvoltage: I'll be in Switzerland from the 18th of December to the 2nd of January, so I should also be on a vaguely better timezone ;)
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| 21:23 | <andygraybeal> stgraber, hey, i didn't know if you saw it or not, but t hank you for your blog!
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| 21:24 | i run across it regularly in my google searches :)
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