IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.libera.chat (webchat)
Channel log from 1 May 2019 (all times are UTC)
| 00:07 | <Sleaker> I should make sure it's not my monitor doing wierd things.
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| 00:11 | hmm yah I think my monitor was doing wierd things and like auto-swapping to another display. rebooted again and back up.
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| 00:11 | or just every-other boot is bad?
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| 00:20 | hmm ok so playing around with epoptes now. it looks like the server gets connected to from the client, but then it immediately DCs the client. and the client seems to connect before it even has finished booting into x
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| 00:22 | oh. that's probably just because it fetches the cert from the server during my initial scripts.
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| 00:22 | it looks like the epoptes-client service isn't connecting properly to the server.
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| 00:29 | hmm doesn't look like epoptes-client starts properly when called via systemctl.
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| 00:31 | ahhh the actual issue is the init script hard exits if /etc/ltsp_chroot doesn't exist.
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| 00:32 | seems odd...
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| 00:34 | <vagrantc> i didn't think we had anything that relied on that still ... is that leftovers from an old install?
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| 00:35 | <Sleaker> no this is a fresh image on the client
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| 00:35 | let me check which version it's grabbing
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| 00:35 | ii epoptes-client 0.5.10-2 all Computer lab management tool (client)
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| 00:36 | so I didn't change the boot line from what I previously had.
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| 00:36 | maybe this is part of the issue. so I also still have init=/sbin/init-ltsp in my pxe config
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| 00:37 | I should doublecheck what the autogenerated one sets up with now I guess
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| 00:37 | since I just updated the location of the image file
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| 00:39 | <vagrantc> ah, yeah, older epoptes had the check only for backwards compatibility
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| 00:39 | e.g. ltsp 5.3.x
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| 00:39 | <Sleaker> ii ltsp-server 5.5.9-2 all basic LTSP server environment
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| 00:39 | ii ltsp-server-standalone 5.5.9-2 all complete LTSP server environment
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| 00:39 | hmm but that stuff is getting included when building with 5.5 ?
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| 00:43 | ah is there no stretch-backports for 1.x?
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| 00:44 | well if I disable the 2 old-ltsp checks it shows up properly in the epoptes server window and I can connect to it just fine
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| 00:45 | <vagrantc> the comment in the older epoptes startup script suggests that the if-up events aren't getting triggered, then
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| 00:51 | <Sleaker> I don't know if ifupdown is even isntalled on this client image atm
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| 00:51 | I had to manually tell it to install a bunch of networking stuff
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| 00:52 | yah the stretch image doesn't default a lot of the networking stuff except what's like super necessary
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| 00:57 | probably just goes away if/when I push buster though I guess.
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| 00:58 | <vagrantc> admittedly, i've done a lot less testing of buster's ltsp
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| 00:58 | <Sleaker> ahh well.. I guess I'll have a lot of fun when it comes up :D
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| 00:58 | I ran into some wierd issues with xterm input where we had to ratelimit usb scanners :-/
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| 00:59 | <vagrantc> though a lot of bugs have been fixed in theory :)
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| 00:59 | <Sleaker> not related to ltsp..
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| 06:32 | <alkisg> Ah, ltsp 5.18 isn't available in stretch-backports...
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| 06:34 | <vagrantc> back when i used it all the time, i had a lot of motivation to backport everything ... now...
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| 06:34 | * vagrantc shrugs | |
| 06:35 | <alkisg> Sure, understandable
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| 07:24 | <alkisg> vagrantc: were there any discussions on debian dropping the i386 arch? Buster still supports it for all DEs, right?
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| 07:24 | E.g. ubuntu-mate doesn't produce i386 CDs anymore; so I guess debian could be an alternative to people still using thin clients in the future
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| 07:25 | <vagrantc> alkisg: technically, it's i686, but haven't heard any recent discussions about dropping it any time soon
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| 07:25 | <alkisg> Great
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| 07:25 | Yeah sure, not real i386, as long as it runs on pentium 4's...
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| 07:25 | <vagrantc> yeah, but won't run on fake pentium 4's
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| 07:25 | :)
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| 07:25 | <alkisg> :D
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| 07:26 | <vagrantc> maybe it still suppoirts i586, actually... i forget ... at least twice the baseline went up and nobody noticed for a few years
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| 07:26 | e.g. too late to really do anything
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| 07:27 | <alkisg> I only saw a couple of 586-compatible PCs around here, between thousands... so I don't really care about <i686
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| 07:27 | Now if only there was a browser capable of surfing with 1 GB RAM... :P
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| 07:30 | I'd like to test my new laptop, with i7-8750h = 12480 passmark, in a classroom of thin clients... at just 750€, it should make a decent server
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| 07:32 | <vagrantc> how much ram, how many cores?
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| 07:32 | <alkisg> 6 real cores, 12 logical
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| 07:32 | just 8 gb ram, but it takes up to 24
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| 07:33 | I has this optimus thing with double intel/nvidia, but fortunately it's easy to completely disable nvidia from the uefi settings
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| 07:34 | <vagrantc> multiple video cards?
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| 07:34 | <alkisg> Yes, dynamically switchable
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| 07:34 | <vagrantc> whoah
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| 07:34 | <alkisg> I.e. when one plays games, nvidia is used; when he closes the game, intel is used
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| 07:34 | without changing any cables or anything at all
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| 12:55 | <mwalters> re: browser... what about palemoon? It's a fork of firefox from way back
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| 12:55 | standard browser on manjaro-i3
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| 12:55 | (probably standard on their other DE packages, as well)
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| 12:58 | https://www.palemoon.org/
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| 12:59 | It seems perfectly usable... but we're a gSuite shop, so I have chromium installed on my laptop
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| 13:07 | <alkisg> mwalters: it's not really the browsers that are the problem nowadays, but the web itself
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| 13:08 | HTML5, multimedia, javascript... they need modern cpu and lots of ram
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| 13:13 | <mwalters> for sure
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| 13:13 | (I used to be a frontend dev :) )
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| 13:13 | well.. "full stack"
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| 13:13 | beyond some really complicated ETL type stuff on the backend... the frontend is what kicked my butt most of the time
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| 13:15 | It's amazing how far frontend development has come from trying to figure out tables on geocities/tripod ;)
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| 13:15 | ...and how needlessly complicated it's become
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| 13:18 | <alkisg> True; to me it seemed like ...visual basic developers wanted to reinvent the forms/windows controls etc, and didn't like the windows api or gtk or qt, and decided to reimplement them all in a slow untyped interpreted language
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| 13:18 | I don't know yet why they think that javascript is so superior to visual basic :P Pascal ftw!
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| 13:19 | <mwalters> HAH! I did *some* pascal back in the BBS days, hacking on WWIV
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| 13:20 | As a language, I do actually really like javascript... It definitely "gives you enough rope", but it can be written extremely elegantly if you're so inclined
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| 13:21 | A good middleground for someone like me who doesn't want to be bothered learning a "hardcore" functional language, but still wants the expressiveness in a "c styled" language
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| 13:21 | I've been digging golang more and more these days for systems stuff, though... nodejs is just tooooooooo sloooooooow
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| 13:22 | and electron is a hot mess
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| 13:22 | <alkisg> I didn't see anyone inventing "pythoncoffeescript"; why was there need for coffeescript?
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| 13:22 | <mwalters> there wasn't
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| 13:22 | people just didn't want to learn javascript ;)
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| 13:22 | <alkisg> Haha
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| 13:22 | I think they needed a more typed language
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| 13:22 | And, something more cross-browser
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| 13:22 | <mwalters> Typescript on the other hand... typescript is pretty great. The extra functionality it brought to IDEs and the "compiler" checks were great for my productivity
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| 13:23 | <alkisg> In 1991, I could set up breakpoints "when this variable is read", and land on the code and step through it etc
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| 13:23 | I don't think I can do that now with javascript
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| 13:23 | <mwalters> Firefox and V8 are pretty comparable these days... it's been a LONG time since I ran into browser inconsistencies with javascript
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| 13:24 | You still can
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| 13:24 | <alkisg> Which environment allows you to stop execution and debug, when a[8] is accessed?
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| 13:24 | <mwalters> Firefox/Chrome support source mapping even... so if you minify/package, you upload the original sources too and you can work in those
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| 13:24 | breakpoints, variable watching, the whole 9 yards
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| 13:25 | press f12 next time you're in chrome ;)
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| 13:25 | the dev tools for javascript are pretty great
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| 13:25 | you can even connect chrome to a nodejs process and debug server side code with the chrome dev tools
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| 13:25 | I found javascript/node way easier to debug than python
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| 13:26 | <alkisg> breakpoints = source lines
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| 13:26 | variable watching = when you step
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| 13:26 | I'm talking about data breakpoints
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| 13:26 | I haven't seen that
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| 13:26 | <mwalters> oh, break if a variable is a certain value?
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| 13:26 | <alkisg> Right
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| 13:26 | Or when it's read
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| 13:26 | <mwalters> read, probably not
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| 13:26 | <alkisg> So it's funny that it was possible 30 years ago, and it's not possible now, with all those advancements
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| 13:27 | <mwalters> I'm pretty sure you can do "conditional breakpoints", but I haven't had a need to
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| 13:27 | <alkisg> It's just an example; I'm missing a whole lot more stuff
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| 13:27 | <mwalters> it's probably something with the memory management in the JIT compiler
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| 13:27 | <alkisg> And of course the worse part is that it's slower than what pascal in 30 year old pcs
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| 13:28 | *pascal was in...
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| 13:28 | I could do bottomless list boxes with millions of lines instantly
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| 13:28 | I can't do that now, neither in javascript nor in gtk
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| 13:28 | <mwalters> you can do "watch expressions" with the chrome dev tools... I'm not sure you can watch an address space to test if its been read, though
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| 13:29 | I'm sure the way around that is to do OOP (*shudder*) and watch getter methods ;)
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| 13:30 | <alkisg> Hehe... if you have control over all the stack, sure, but if you just got into a project of others with 100.000 lines of code, good luck
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| 13:30 | <mwalters> absolutely.
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| 13:31 | <alkisg> What I do like nowadays though is that a plain console.log(object) gives you the whole object in an extendable view
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| 13:31 | <mwalters> ah, you need to use the chrome dev tools ;)
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| 13:31 | stack exploration when you break
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| 13:31 | <alkisg> I have... I had to do a bit of web development last year
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| 13:31 | <mwalters> expand the entire thing
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| 13:31 | <alkisg> And except for internet explorer support, it went rather well
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| 13:32 | <mwalters> memory use explodes... it's fun ;)
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| 13:32 | <alkisg> #($*&(#* oh my why doesn't this IE read svg.innerHTML... ok, let's not support IE, end of story :P
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| 13:32 | And this CORS thing was rather painsome
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| 13:33 | <mwalters> A couple jobs ago I was building a business management system for a postal carrier here... Angular2 frontend, mostly nodejs backend... it was pretty elegant
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| 13:33 | Moving a bunch of processes from... Access databases ;)
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| 13:33 | <alkisg> I started with canvasjs, as that was what adobe/microsoft recommended
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| 13:33 | 3 months later, I had to rewrite everything with plain html5
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| 13:34 | <mwalters> oic... frontend was a hot mess like 8-10 years ago
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| 13:34 | now-a-days you just have 900 different frameworks and css layout libraries
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| 13:34 | but for the most part they all "just work" as they describe on the package
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| 13:34 | <alkisg> And you need 900 days to learn all that :D
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| 13:34 | <mwalters> not like 10 years ago where you had to do a bunch browser feature checking and stuff
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| 13:35 | <alkisg> Example, for kindergarden kids learning to move the mouse: https://ermis.dschool.edu.gr/preschool/erase/
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| 13:35 | <mwalters> oh, this is super cool
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| 13:36 | <alkisg> Just keeping it maximized with standard aspect ratio needed a week, to make it cross-browser
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| 13:36 | <mwalters> My wife is what we call an "Instructional technology resource teacher" working in elementary schools here
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| 13:36 | <alkisg> Heh, great; I'm a teacher myself, although in secondary schools
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| 13:36 | <mwalters> Ah ok. I worked for Pearson/Powerschool a few years back
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| 13:36 | and a local district
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| 13:37 | moved on to for-profit business, got screwed a couple times, now I'm back in the not for profit space ;)
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| 13:37 | <alkisg> :D
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| 13:38 | <mwalters> multimedia like this in html is a "hard problem", yes
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| 13:38 | I think a couple libraries have come out since flash started it's death throes, though
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| 13:38 | (for better or worse)
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| 13:38 | <alkisg> Oh I tried like 10 libraries
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| 13:39 | Each had its pros and cons
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| 13:39 | <mwalters> you shouldn't *need* a library... but you know ;)
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| 13:39 | absolutely
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| 13:39 | <alkisg> In the end, I used plain HTML5, and it worked better than all the others
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| 13:39 | Essentially I developed my own little library
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| 13:39 | <mwalters> can I share this? is there grade-one/first year, etc?
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| 13:40 | <alkisg> After that, the next activities were developed very fast
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| 13:40 | This is the development space: https://ermis.dschool.edu.gr/preschool/
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| 13:40 | You can find a few more
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| 13:40 | After they're developed, they move to http://photodentro.edu.gr, e.g. http://photodentro.edu.gr/photodentro/pattern_v1.0_pidx0054967/
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| 13:40 | <mwalters> I don't think she'll expect the kids to learn greek, but that mouse one is super cool... I'm sure that'd be useful even in kindergarten in some cases
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| 13:41 | <alkisg> Only one of them requires reading (by the teacher)
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| 13:41 | It's kindergarden, so students can't read
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| 13:41 | <mwalters> I'll tell *her* to learn Greek, then ;)
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| 13:41 | <alkisg> Some were inspired by gcompris, e.g. https://ermis.dschool.edu.gr/preschool/mosaic/
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| 13:41 | <mwalters> chromium translate seems to work pretty well, though
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| 13:42 | <mwalters> thanks, I'm sure she'll enjoy digging around!
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| 13:43 | <alkisg> np
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| 17:08 | <mwalters> Welp, I'm giving up on my bash script for passwords... too many gotchas and I don't have the brainpower to think through all of them :D
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| 17:09 | I guess I'll give FreeIPA another look.
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| 17:57 | <alkisg> mwalters: meh, just let them change it locally, then sync shadow with the server :)
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| 17:58 | ah ldm, never mind
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| 17:58 | <mwalters> I also want to keep it in sync with 4 ltsp servers
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| 18:01 | <quinox> keeping passwords in sync between servers... if only there was some kind of authorative server that could be used for that ... ;)
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| 18:10 | for me it works great
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| 18:12 | <mwalters> no more servers D:
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| 18:12 | <quinox> of course you're introducting a new dependency, but for me OpenLDAP has been setup-and-forget; I have no experience with FreeIPA but it looks solid as well
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| 18:21 | it's servers all the way down
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| 18:22 | <quinox> then you're making new server to control your other servers, and a server to monitor all your servers, and then you need another server to monitor your monitor server
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| 18:22 | <vagrantc> such a rudimentary service!
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