IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.libera.chat (webchat)
Channel log from 21 August 2014 (all times are UTC)
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| 01:40 | <ternarybit> Howdy. Just wondering if someone can point me to some resources for how to better understand how LTSP fat clients interact with the server (NBD, NFS, etc). Haven’t found what I’m looking for in the official docs or manpages.
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| 01:41 | Also wondering if there is a way to create a fully standalone kiosk client that, after booting, does not depend on the LTSP server at all.
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| 01:43 | <vagrantc> i did implement some support for loading the whole image into ram at one point
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| 01:43 | ternarybit: what sort of interaction are you looking for, exactly?
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| 01:44 | ternarybit: fat clients get their root filesystem from the server (NFS/NBD/AoE), and use the server to authenticate users (ssh), and mount homedirs off the server (sshfs or NFS)
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| 01:45 | <ternarybit> So, like I have SCREEN_07 set to kiosk mode running chromium, nothing else, as a fat client. What’s going in between the booted kiosk client and the server in the background?
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| 01:45 | <vagrantc> they also download their kernel from the server (tftp) and typically get their network settings from the server (dhcp)
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| 01:45 | <ternarybit> What was your experience loading the whole image to RAM?
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| 01:45 | <vagrantc> ternarybit: with SCREEN_07=kiosk, the only thing once it's booted would either be NFS or NBD for the root filesystem
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| 01:46 | ternarybit: it was just a proof of concept, but loading the whole image worked fine in ram.
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| 01:46 | <ternarybit> ok, so it’s still dependent on the server, that’s what I wanted to know.
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| 01:46 | care to elaborate or point me to some resources for how to do a standalone/ram approach? :)
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| 01:47 | <vagrantc> ternarybit: yes, though if you used the feature i proof-of-concepted it will probably work fine
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| 01:47 | <ternarybit> I’m very curious, and grateful. do tell
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| 01:48 | <vagrantc> LTSP_NBD_TO_RAM=true ... somewhere. heh.
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| 01:49 | it's in /usr/share/initramfs-tools/scripts/init-bottom/ltsp
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| 01:49 | the code that handles that, anyways
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| 01:50 | well, in the client's filesystem ... so /opt/ltsp/i386/usr/share...
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| 01:50 | <ternarybit> right
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| 01:50 | <vagrantc> it was a surprisingly simple patch to test it
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| 01:51 | <ternarybit> from the look of it, the LTSP_NBD_TO_RAM=true should go in the /var/lib/tftproot/ltsp/<arch>/lts.conf?
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| 01:51 | <vagrantc> i'm not sure lts.conf is read at that point
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| 01:52 | <ternarybit> hmm. maybe the kiosk config in screen.d?
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| 01:52 | <vagrantc> no, much earlier than that
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| 01:52 | it's hard to remember, i implemented this in january 2013 ... hard to believe it was that long ago
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| 01:52 | you could try lts.conf...
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| 01:54 | <ternarybit> could it be in ltsp_build_client.conf?
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| 01:54 | <vagrantc> no ... might have just been in initramfs-tools/conf.d/
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| 01:55 | <ternarybit> ok. and do you say this is implemented, or do I need a manual patch?
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| 01:56 | <vagrantc> it's been in ltsp since january of 2013 ...
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| 01:56 | but it was never really fleshed out
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| 01:56 | <ternarybit> great, and thank you for that contribution.
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| 01:57 | I assume it imposes a startup penalty as it’s copying everything to ram. any ideas on what it may require for a basic webkiosk?
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| 01:57 | <vagrantc> yeah, it'll spend a little longer booting, but not absurdly so
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| 01:58 | * vagrantc checks a setup with a webbrowser kiosk | |
| 01:58 | <ternarybit> found it: https://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ltsp-upstream/ltsp/ltsp-trunk/revision/2431/client/Debian/share/initramfs-tools/scripts/init-bottom/ltsp
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| 02:00 | <vagrantc> yeah
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| 02:00 | <ternarybit> here: /opt/ltsp/i386/usr/share/initramfs-tools/scripts/init-bottom/ltsp
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| 02:00 | <vagrantc> i did make the assumption you're using debian or ubuntu
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| 02:00 | <ternarybit> you assumed correctly
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| 02:01 | <vagrantc> but in theory you should be able to usethe concept with any distro
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| 02:01 | <ternarybit> in your testing approx how much ram did the nbd image require? my machines are likely adequate, just curious (as i’m not in front of my test box now)
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| 02:02 | * vagrantc is logging in to find out | |
| 02:03 | <vagrantc> ok, so, i've got an install that takes around 950MB uncompressed
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| 02:03 | i bet squashfs can compress that down to about 300-400MB
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| 02:04 | so, probably assume 512MB for the image
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| 02:04 | this is debian wheezy on armel with firefox
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| 02:04 | er, iceweasel
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| 02:05 | <ternarybit> interesting.
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| 02:05 | <vagrantc> you might get different numbers with a different release/distro/architecture
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| 02:05 | but it gives a ballpark idea
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| 02:06 | <ternarybit> There are probably lots of ways of pruning that down, too.
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| 02:06 | <vagrantc> sure
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| 02:06 | you could add a bunch of stuff to ltsp-build-client.excludes
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| 02:06 | <ternarybit> I’ll need to poke around the chroot to see what comes stock
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| 02:06 | <vagrantc> normally, i wouldn't recommend the bother, but with loading the whole image into ram it'd make a noteable difference
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| 02:07 | both on boot speed and on ram useage ...
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| 02:07 | <ternarybit> all I care about is a fully functional chromium browser, everything else is a non-issue
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| 02:07 | right.
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| 02:07 | <vagrantc> although i seem to remember when implementing that feature, excluding quite a bit made a nominal difference in the image size.
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| 02:07 | though my memory of that is pretty vague, never really ended up using it
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| 02:08 | <ternarybit> well, ~400MiB transfers at 100Mbit in a little over 30 seconds. Add in other bootstrapping and time to interact is like 120 seconds from bootup. certainly doable, especially for the payof
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| 02:08 | <vagrantc> i'd test out the model before bothering to trim it down
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| 02:09 | since that's just a matter of adding stuff to ltsp-update-image.excludes
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| 02:09 | <ternarybit> yeah, if the base image is in that ballpark I won’t bother much.
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| 02:09 | and thanks for the excludes tip
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| 02:10 | I don’t suppose we can serve tftp over multicast ...
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| 02:11 | <vagrantc> i *think* placing LTSP_NBD_TO_RAM=true in one of the /opt/ltsp/i386/etc/initramfs-tools/*conf*.d/*.conf files might enable it...
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| 02:12 | i should rethink how to enable that ... make it a boot prompt option... i don't think we parse lts.conf from initramfs anymore.
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| 02:12 | <ternarybit> according to some irc logs where you mentioned LTSP_NBD_TO_RAM you say to put it here: /opt/ltsp/i386/usr/share/initramfs-tools/scripts/init-bottom/ltsp
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| 02:13 | I would love to see the feature fully developed, although I will give the current implementation a solid go-around.
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| 02:14 | Looks like multicast tftp made it to experimental: https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2090
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| 02:14 | <vagrantc> well, that's where the code already is now ...that's where it needed to be patched before it was included.
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| 02:15 | <ternarybit> oh i see
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| 02:15 | <vagrantc> as far as multicast, you'll need multicast enabled NBD
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| 02:15 | or more feature development to download the image via tftp instead.
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| 02:16 | <ternarybit> oh I see, the image is transferred via NBD. Not terribly familiar with it, yet.
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| 02:17 | so, ten 100mbps clients would temporarily saturate a 1Gbps LTSP server with the copy to ram option.
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| 02:17 | <vagrantc> yeah, it might
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| 02:18 | <ternarybit> well, that’s the tradeoff
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| 02:19 | <vagrantc> you could just do some sort of staggered boot delay or something, if that were really an issue
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| 02:19 | <ternarybit> so… compare that to the current way, where clients maintain NBD connections but don’t copy everything to ram. how many clients can a 1Gbps server typically handle? I know fat clients execute everything locally.
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| 02:20 | <vagrantc> just as kiosks? no idea. quite a few.
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| 02:20 | <ternarybit> a few hundred?
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| 02:20 | <vagrantc> don't have the experience to say for sure.
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| 02:20 | <ternarybit> i guess we can find out :)
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| 02:21 | this solution makes use out of otherwise useless machines, so nobody will complain.
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| 02:21 | <vagrantc> most of my installs have been under 25 clients
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| 02:21 | if you really wanted, you could probably set up multiple servers
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| 02:21 | <ternarybit> I’m looking at a school district with probably a few hundred clients, ideally served by a central/unified VM server
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| 02:22 | <vagrantc> nice
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| 02:23 | <ternarybit> are you talking about ltsp-cluster? i seem to recall that in passing
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| 02:23 | <vagrantc> the disk usage would be fairly minimal, other than boot
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| 02:23 | ternarybit: not ltsp-cluster specifically, but that might implement something along those lines
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| 02:24 | <ternarybit> interesting, good to know it’s an option. In all likelihood we will test it with ~30 clients for a while.
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| 02:25 | one other question: in kiosk mode, there is a significant blank screen delay after loading the kernel (?) where I assume X is intializing and whatnot. any way to give it a splash screen? didn’t see much online.
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| 02:26 | <vagrantc> i haven't worked much with splash screens, but yeah, you could configure plymouth or maybe install one of the theme packages
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| 02:27 | on debian there's the plymouth-themes package
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| 02:27 | <ternarybit> just something basic, like the district logo or even just “loading”
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| 02:27 | I will look into plymouth. glanced at it, wasn’t sure if it was the right tree to bark up
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| 02:28 | <vagrantc> not sure either ... i usually am developing ltsp, so i want to see whatever deugging i can get
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| 02:30 | <ternarybit> sure. do you know specifically what’s going on in the blank interval between loading the kernel and launching the browser?
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| 02:31 | <vagrantc> too many things to give you a meaningful answer
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| 02:31 | it's all the bootup stuff
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| 02:31 | same as any OS boot, really, not too much LTSP-specific there
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| 02:32 | <ternarybit> hmm. found something here: https://www.redhat.com/archives/k12osn/2011-November/msg00032.html
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| 02:33 | I’ll just tinker. I guess what’s concerning is that it does not appear that *any* splash screen is displayed, as opposed to the normal ubuntu/debian splash screen when loading ldm
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| 02:33 | so I’m not confident that a custom plymouth theme would show.
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| 02:43 | well hey, thanks for the valuable insight. I will goof off with it over a few weeks and report back.
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| 02:43 | cheers!
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| 02:44 | <vagrantc> good luck!
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| 04:46 | <cyberorg> vagrantc, will test out your changes soon, thanks :)
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| 05:55 | <vagrantc> cyberorg: good!
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| 08:03 | <Arshpreet> Which Open-Suse arch should I use for LTSP-server ? 64 bit or 32-bit?
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| 08:05 | <cyberorg> Arshpreet, get http://download.opensuse-education.org/~cyberorg/openSUSE-Edu-li-f-e-gnome-classic.x86_64-13.1.3.iso
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| 08:06 | <Arshpreet> ok Thanks. is it pre-configured?
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| 08:06 | <cyberorg> follow this https://en.opensuse.org/SDB:LTSP_quick_start_12.2_Edu
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| 08:06 | ltsp is pre installed in that image
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| 08:06 | <Arshpreet> Sure, Thanks. :)
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| 08:07 | <cyberorg> it has mate and gnome desktops available, mate works well on thinclients, gnome is bit hit and miss
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| 08:07 | you want to use thinclient or fat clients?
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| 08:07 | <Arshpreet> Ok.
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| 08:07 | only thin-clients
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| 08:08 | <cyberorg> ok
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| 08:08 | <Arshpreet> We have 4 server and 200 thin-clients
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| 08:08 | s/server/servers
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| 08:09 | Am I on right path for my setup?
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| 08:11 | <cyberorg> depends on what exactly you want to do, how powerful are the servers, do you have common authentication, shared storage etc...
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| 08:12 | also what is your client specs?
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| 08:12 | <Arshpreet> Clients wants only load balancing
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| 08:13 | he wants every client should be able to login every Server
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| 08:14 | first client will go to server1 if it is already full then it should go for server 2 and so on. if all are full then return a message like <Server Busy>
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| 08:15 | we have four dual-core servers with 4 GB of RAM each. we only need to run 50 at once.
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| 08:16 | students only run simple C++ programs on clients
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| 08:17 | <Arshpreet> Presently they are using this kind of setup with Windows. http://www.techrepublic.com/article/create-a-scalable-thin-client-solution-with-terminal-server-farms/
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| 08:17 | Please let me know if you need more information about Setup and Hardware from my side
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| 08:18 | <cyberorg> you need about 256M ram per client on the server
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| 08:19 | <Arshpreet> ok. Can I reduce Ram requirements? or 256M is least?
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| 08:19 | <cyberorg> for load balancing, add MY_SERVER_LIST=ip addresses of your servers
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| 08:19 | to lts.conf
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| 08:20 | you can install xfce4-session, that may reduce it a bit, but not much
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| 08:21 | you need shared storage, and ldap authentication set up for all servers
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| 08:23 | <Arshpreet> How about Openbox or Python This client? http://opensource.mtier.org/mtc.html
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| 08:24 | <cyberorg> never used it so no idea
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| 08:25 | <Arshpreet> ok I will report on Mailing list as well as here after my successfull setup.
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| 08:26 | Do i need to know anything else or Do's and Don't's ?
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| 08:44 | <cyberorg> well you should start with modest single server setup and be extremely familiar with linux system administration first before attempting clustering
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| 08:47 | <Arshpreet> Yes i have some Linux experience with Rocks Cluster ;)
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| 09:32 | <femur> hi good morning in here
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| 09:32 | im kinda new to linux
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| 09:33 | i installed an LTSP Edubuntu server and i need to add multiple users
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| 09:33 | doing it from the GUI is quite stressfull
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| 09:34 | i need a script that can help me add multiple users with passwords
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| 09:34 | please can anyone in here help me with that?
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| 09:34 | il be most grateful
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| 10:07 | <femur> hi khildin
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| 10:08 | maybe you can help with my problem
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| 10:10 | im kinda new to linux.. i installed an LTSP Edubuntu server and i need to add multiple users, doing it from the GUI is quite stressfull.. i need a script that can help me add multiple users with passwords.. please if you can help me with that, il be most grateful
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| 10:19 | <cyberorg> femur, google user add script
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| 10:21 | <femur> cyberorg, i have done alot of googling and nothing seems to be working right for me
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| 10:28 | <cyberorg> http://www.cyberciti.biz/tips/howto-write-shell-script-to-add-user.html was the first on the list, you can adapt if it does not seem right for your need
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| 10:28 | like that there are many more scripts in google result, all mostly working
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| 13:52 | <cryptrat> Hello, I have a question: I have had between 2-4 thin clients running off one server for about 2 weeks now, the first week was fine without any problems and now i am having issues where firefox seems to stop resolving dns, where they have to refresh to get the page back
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| 13:52 | any ideas what might be the cause or an idea of what direction to go in
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| 13:53 | either server side or client side?
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| 13:54 | <championofcyrodi> is it just firefox or can you not resolve using DNS in the terminal either?
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| 13:58 | <cryptrat> well all they use right now is firefox, and if they hit refresh the page comes back up, so its kinda like it times out... i could try another browser
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| 14:00 | i've even tried setting google dns in the resolv.conf on the server.... thinking maybe it was a comcast issue...
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| 14:00 | the server seems to resolve fine
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| 14:18 | <||cw> that doens't sound like a dns issue, that sounds like a firefox bug
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| 14:24 | <FrankBlues> Maybe clear everything in firefox: Control-Shift-Delete will kill all personal data, history, and cache
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| 14:50 | <cryptrat> yeah cleared everything, rebooted server and clients, still had issues with firefox so i just installed chromium in hopes that it is just a firefox bug
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| 14:51 | <||cw> what makes you think it's dns? some error on the FF console?
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| 14:58 | <cryptrat> well maybe not dns but some FF bug, we use a web based customer database software and it keeps freezing while using that system
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| 14:59 | and they have to refresh and it doesn't always keep what they entered... so not good for productivity
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| 16:14 | <cryptrat> same thing on chromium eventually it just seems to time out on that site.... just on the thin clients
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| 16:14 | not the rest of the normal pcs here... so i'll keep looking
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| 16:21 | <||cw> what's the error from the console?
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| 16:21 | are you sure it's not just something with the site's javascript?
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| 16:22 | are the normal PC's running the same version of the same distro with the same DE?
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| 19:34 | <cryptrat> sorry for the delay, its just a website basically, the windows pc's mainly use IE or chrome and don't have this trouble
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| 19:43 | <cryptrat> i am using dnsmasq, could that be part of the problem?
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| 19:50 | <||cw> unless you're getting "host not found" errors, it's not DNS
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| 19:54 | <jammcq> hello friends
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| 19:55 | stgraber: BTS-2014 Oct 23-26, hope you guys can make it.
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| 19:55 | ogra_: ready for a trip to Maine ?
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