IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.libera.chat (webchat)

Channel log from 8 October 2008 (all times are UTC)

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03:10	<gate_keeper_> hi guys
03:10	how's goin..?
03:10	i have some problem with tftp
03:10	when the client tries to download the kernel image file through tftp
03:10	i get this error
03:10	PXE-E32: TFTP open timeout
03:13	what can cause this..
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03:21	<cyberorg> gate_keeper_, firewall blocking, inetd not running, managed switch interfering, bad network cable/switch etc
03:21	<gate_keeper_> ok i solved it, 69 port was blocked
03:21	thx
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03:30	<gate_keeper_> shit another problem, busybox ....
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03:36	<gate_keeper_> target filesystem doesn't have /sbin/init ..
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05:35	<stgraber> ogra: ping
05:36	ogra: can you upload ltsp+ldm ?
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05:58	<ogra> stgraber, done
05:58	congrats :)
06:04	<stgraber> yeah, we got all our bugs fixed !!! (at least these I saw)
06:04	thanks
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06:37	<randra> Nubae =*
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06:46	<sirio81> Hi all
06:47	I've a problem booting Diskless Workstation from debian-edu that is using LTSP
06:47	I recevice this error:
06:47	or better, I receive these messages:
06:47	TFTP prefix: /var/lib/tftpboot/ltsp/i386 trying to load: pxelinux.cfg/01-08-00-27-04-49-0b
06:48	the "trying to load" continue with similar messagest but, at the end, it doesn't load the system. It doesn't even try
06:49	do you have any suggestion about the cause?
06:49	<klausade> sirio81: and this is all virtualized by virtualbox?
06:50	<ogra> sounds like either a second dhcpd runs in your network or your tftp setup is borked
06:50	<sirio81> it may be the first
06:51	now that I think...there are two dhcp running...
06:51	great!
06:51	I will disable the route dhcp and see if it get fixed. Thanks a lot!
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06:53	<ogra> nubae1, new bot ?
06:53	<nubae1> cool... logbot
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06:53	<nubae1> heh
06:53	<ogra> not realy persistent :P
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06:53	<nubae1> its entirely php so, let me debug it
06:53	<ogra> shudder
06:54	why dont you take a supybot :)
06:54	<nubae1> cause I like dis one...
06:54	:p
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06:54	<ogra> but php ... security ... uhm ...
06:55	<nubae1> its running as its own user
06:55	on its own databse
06:55	dont see how its insecure
06:56	<ogra> well, with php you often only see how its insecure after hving been hacked for the first time :)
06:56	<nubae1> this runs from command line btw
06:56	not a website
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06:59	<nubae1> ok testing testing
06:59	ok not dying anymore
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07:00	<ogra> if you have it running, make jammcq add it to the topic
07:00	<Nubae> only problem is I need to run it with screen
07:00	ok, let me set up the page and I'll tell him
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08:18	<mib_saga> hi guys i installed ltsp-server, ltsp-utils ltsp-client xinetd using yum in fedora 9 but after the reboot i am getting things like this https://www.mibbit.com/pb/O5nfbW
08:18	any ideas how to recover
08:19	* ogra wonders where people get such broken install instructions ...
08:19	* ogra luckily has no clue abotu fedora though
08:19	<ogra> mib_saga, you should never ever install ltsp-client on a server
08:19	<mib_saga> ogra yesterday i came here
08:19	yeah yesterday you said
08:19	<ogra> and i have no idea what ltsp-utils should be)
08:20	<mib_saga> i am now looking for a solution
08:20	<ogra> all you need is ltsp-server
08:20	<mib_saga> okay
08:20	warren here to help me?
08:20	<ogra> reinstall is the best solution, ltsp-client modifies a lot in your initprocess, a reinstall is very likely to cost you lees than 10% of the work to solve that
08:21	<warren> mib_saga: you need to READ THE INSTRUCTIONS
08:21	mikkel: remove it all and start again
08:21	<ogra> ubuntu and debian have a check in the ltsp-client package, it is not installable outside of a client chroot
08:22	you probably should add that to the fedora package too
08:22	<warren> ogra: no, only removing ltsp-client and redoing the initrd will fix him
08:22	<mib_saga> ok........i have another version of working kernel on the same machine its booting
08:22	<warren> ogra: yeah, there is a check to the ltsp-client in an update I just pushed now.
08:22	<ogra> warren, ah
08:22	<mib_saga> can i copy initprocess scripts there
08:22	<warren> you don't need to copy any scripts
08:22	just uninstall all the ltsp stuff
08:22	and follow the directions
08:22	<mib_saga> okay warren
08:22	<ogra> warren, we check for /etc/ltsp_chroot in our install scripts
08:22	<mib_saga> ok
08:22	<warren> ogra: yeah, we do too, it is more complicated than that though.
08:23	<ogra> makes probably sense to unify on that
08:23	<warren> fixed now
08:23	<ogra> ah
08:23	warren, what NM version do you ship in fedora now ? 0.7 ?
08:24	<mib_saga> ogra i have uninstalled ltsp-client
08:24	* ogra is intrested how they made that work with dhcpd
08:24	<warren> mib_saga: uninstall ALL OF IT
08:24	mib_saga: then follow the directions
08:24	<ogra> as NM manages static interfaces now
08:24	<mib_saga> ok
08:24	<ogra> warren, btw, whats ltsp-utils ?
08:24	<warren> ogra: you can tell NM to ignore certain interfaces
08:25	ogra: I have no idea, I don't maintain it
08:25	<ogra> warren, i know we do that by default, but people can switch it on
08:25	<warren> I didn't know it existed until now.
08:25	I probably need to get it removed.
08:25	<ogra> sounds like 4.x stuff
08:25	<mib_saga> i installed all using yum.........
08:26	i dont know whether its 4.x are 5
08:26	<ogra> if you switch NM to manage all interfaces i have the prob in ubuntu that dhcpd tries to start before NM ... which means tehre is no interface
08:26	so dhcpd refuses to start indeed
08:26	<warren> mib_saga: follow the fucking directions
08:26	<mib_saga> ok
08:26	<warren> stop crying
08:27	* ogra didn know there was sex involved in getting ltsp work on fedora :)
08:28	<Nubae> NM sucks balls
08:28	<ogra> nah, its fine
08:28	if its configured right
08:28	<warren> NM sucks balls unless you need only what it provides.
08:28	NM provides more and more
08:28	<ogra> the prob is that upstream changes the world with every pointrelease
08:29	<Nubae> right
08:29	<warren> ogra: that is not true
08:29	<ogra> so you need to figure out the new config over and over
08:29	<warren> ogra: the world changes several times in snapshots between point releases
08:29	<ogra> well, i can only judge between ubuntu releases :)
08:30	where we moved from 0.5 to 0.7 plus it has a lot of debian specific fixes to not cause regressions
08:30	<warren> did those fixes to back upstream?
08:30	<ogra> debian systems use to rely on /etc/network/interface for historic reasons
08:30	<warren> dcbw added all sorts of things to allow auto-migration of preferences from older versions
08:30	<ogra> no, they are nonsense for upstream
08:30	<warren> but that was only recently
08:31	<ogra> only important for debian
08:31	<Nubae> i dont understand why it couldnt just copy the settings from there, if it finds them
08:31	<ogra> and usually only in the packaging
08:31	Nubae, thats what the new managed mode does
08:31	<Nubae> new as of when?
08:31	<ogra> it just uses ifup/down and the good old /e/n/i backend
08:32	yesterday i think, read ubuntu-devel@ :) it was announced there
08:32	<Nubae> true I did an upgrade yesterday, but havent restarted yet, guess I'll notice it then
08:33	<ogra> not if you have a config file from former versions i fear, you need to follow the instructions from the mail i guess and set managed to false
08:37	https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2008-October/026656.html
08:39	Nubae, though the dhcpd issue isnt fixed that, i will look for a sane solution this week
08:42	mmm :)
08:42	* ogra discovers the python-launchpad-bugs package
08:44	<ogra> oh, and a new kernel ...
08:44	* ogra installs 2.6.27-6
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08:52	<Pascal_4> huhuhuhu
08:52	<ogra> huhu ?
08:52	<Pascal_4> sorry
08:52	<ogra> :)
08:52	<Pascal_4> bad windows
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08:54	<mmcji> howdee
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08:55	<mmcji> in vmware-server, on my xubuntu 8.04 laptop, I have installed LTSP from the ubuntu 8.04 alternate cd
08:57	I setup /etc/ltsp/dhcp.conf on a seperate network from the host laptop, when i launch another vm session and have it boot from network it is is able to boot fine from the ltsp vm image
08:57	but the really odd thing happens
08:59	when i launch the client to boot from pxe i loose lan connectivity to everything beyond my laptop. I can still ping the vm's from the laptop, but i can not reach my local gateway until i close the client that successfully booted
08:59	a few specifics
08:59	the laptop ip address is 10.10.10.108
09:00	the ltps vm image is 10.20.10.100/24
09:02	<sbalneav> Hmmm, sorry, I don't know anything about vmware or virtualization.
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09:03	<mmcji> the next-router in /etc/ltsp/dhcp.conf is 10.20.10.100
09:03	sbalneav: that's ok, thank you
09:04	second problem
09:05	i am getting the message "this workstations is not authorized to connect to server" when attempting to log in from the client
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09:13	<sbalneav> You'll need to do an "ltsp-update-sshkeys" and an "ltsp-update-image"
09:14	your ssh keys in your image are out of sync
09:14	ogra: hardy was the first version of ubuntu to have console-kit, wasn't it?
09:15	Man, I've started doing hardy upgrades and I'm CONSTANTLY being hammered by complaints that everything slows down.
09:16	cpu loads are ok, the network just gets unresponsive.
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09:36	<mmcji> upgrades from gusty to hardy? or just something like apt-get update apt-get upgrade?
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09:41	<mmcji> i do not think putting ltsp in a production env in a vm would really be the way to go, at least from working with ltsp over the last day. This is my first venture into ltsp so I do not know what the best practices on it are yet.
09:41	but it is cool!
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10:03	<Q-FUNK> guys, Artec is downsizing and I'm among the unlucky ones.if you know of a company in baltic/scandinavia that needs some sales/marketing guy with technology awareness, please ping me.
10:03	(18:03:00) Q-FUNK: alternately, a foreign company who needs representation here is welcome too.
10:03	..
10:03	cut&paste R us
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10:15	<Nubae> Q-FUNK: sorry to hear that man
10:17	<laga_> ouch
10:17	sorry to hear that, yeah :(
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10:59	<ogra> sbalneav, yes, but console kit is only used by administrative apps like gnome-system-tools
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12:15	<majordamo> pmatulis: hey
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12:55	<_UsUrPeR_> hello all
12:56	anyone had any luck with intrepid Beta and LTSP yet?
12:56	it's booting to a black screen for me :\
12:57	<ogra> it had a bugfix upload today, wait for tomorrows daily build, that should look a lot better
12:58	what graphics driver btw ?
12:58	xorg changed massively this release
12:58	(i.e. new drivers, all input handling is done by hal, no more xorg.conf )
13:00	* Lns bids farewell to xorg.conf
13:00	<_UsUrPeR_> heh
13:01	I'm just using a new install and first build. I have not specified drivers for it yet
13:01	is that a required step?
13:01	<ogra> no
13:01	<Q-FUNK> Lns: erm, except that X still doesn't know how to pick a default keymap that is useful for $locale
13:01	<ogra> also you now need to force CONFIGURE_X=true if you want the old configuration script to run
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13:01	<ogra> Q-FUNK, ?
13:02	hal does that
13:02	based on /etc/defaults/console-tools
13:02	*default
13:02	s/tools/setup/
13:03	* ogra never can remember the right package name for all this console stuff
13:03	<Lns> It would be nice to have an xorg.conf like lts.conf where you can pass whatever vars you want, and it autodetects all the rest...unless that's how it already works
13:03	<_UsUrPeR_> ok, well then... I have made a fresh install of the latest Ubuntu beta release, and when booting up, instead of going to a logon screen, it goes to a black screen
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13:04	<ogra> well, thats what lts.conf is for ... X doesnt support driver or display settings through hal yet, that will come with jaunty
13:05	<Lns> lol..i can't believe there's talk about jaunty, that's funny to me
13:05	<ogra> _UsUrPeR_, yes, as i said, there were a lot of fixes uploaded today
13:05	<Lns> i guess the dev process looks way more into the future than us lowly sysadmins ;)
13:05	<_UsUrPeR_> ogra: when will those be included in update/release?
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13:05	<ogra> Lns, well, i know the upstream roadmap
13:05	_UsUrPeR_, in todays build
13:06	<Lns> !docs
13:06	<ltspbot> Lns: "docs" is For the most current documentation, see http://wiki.ltsp.org/twiki/bin/view/Ltsp/LtspDocumentationUpstream
13:06	<_UsUrPeR_> ogra: rgr
13:06	figures it was downloaded yesterday :)
13:06	<Lns> ogra: can you tell me the "official" ubuntu.com ltsp wiki page?
13:06	<ogra> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/
13:07	<Lns> last time i was there it looked like a trainwreck, i'd love to clean it up a bit
13:07	<ogra> that should aggregate most of it
13:07	<Lns> ty
13:07	<ogra> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/EdubuntuFAQ has some more
13:07	<Lns> oh man..my resolveramissues page is still right there for gutsy :p
13:08	<ogra> well, the option described there is still supported
13:08	<Lns> yeah, everything is in such a flat-link hierarchy though, i'd like to clean that up a bit as long as i'm not stepping on anyone's toes
13:09	<ogra> feel free to ajdust, just keep QuickInstall as is and make sure you dont break linkage
13:09	<Lns> mkm
13:09	mmk*
13:09	<ogra> there might be websites linking to any of the pages so put proper redirects in place
13:10	<Lns> good point, thx
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13:31	<nubae> damnit... why does linux not have a native virtual cd emulator?
13:32	<muh2000> hi
13:32	<nubae> and I dont mean for isos
13:32	<muh2000> kiosk mode possible with ltsp5?
13:32	<nubae> cdemu is totally broke, and acetonise is totally unsupported...
13:32	muh2000: absolutely...
13:32	ltsp-build-client --kiosk
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13:32	<laga_> nubae: why don't you use non-proprietary image formats? ;)
13:33	<nubae> because I dont decide how the damn photo and video material is distributed
13:33	<muh2000> nubae: how does it work when it is installed? auto login etc?
13:33	there is a daemon tools like program out for kde but dunno whether it is finished and what it can do
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13:34	<nubae> I've been trying for days to get cdemu working, which is supposed to be the official ubuntu virtual cd program... but forget it, wont work...
13:34	muh2000: !docs
13:34	!docs
13:34	<ltspbot> nubae: "docs" is For the most current documentation, see http://wiki.ltsp.org/twiki/bin/view/Ltsp/LtspDocumentationUpstream
13:35	<muh2000> 404 kiosk
13:35	<nubae> also check help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP
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13:37	<muh2000> ok
13:38	<ogra> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HowtoWriteLTSP5Plugins#
13:38	https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HowtoWriteLTSP5Plugins
13:38	no hash sign ....
13:39	that has the kiosk plugin as an example
13:40	<nubae> ogra: I give up on the php logbot... there is one in python.... might work better
13:41	:p
13:41	<Lns> nubae: what's a "virtual" cd "emulator" ? How do you emulate a virtual cd? :p
13:41	<ogra> nubae, supybot :)
13:42	<sbalneav> supybot's what's running here, ltspbot
13:42	<nubae> would be nice to use the php bot, but I dont have time to write an entire frontend for it
13:42	<sbalneav> what is it you're wanting to do?
13:42	<nubae> sbalneav: can u get it to log the channel?
13:42	<sbalneav> it already does
13:43	<nubae> and where is that found?
13:43	<sbalneav> on my box at home
13:43	<ogra> heh
13:43	<nubae> website?
13:43	<sbalneav> no one's offered to host the logs
13:43	<nubae> ok, I offer
13:43	<ogra> www.ltsp.org/irclogs/ ?
13:44	<Lns> ogra: 404 on that
13:44	<sbalneav> root@phobos:/home/drevil/logs/ChannelLogger/freenode/#ltsp#
13:44	<nubae> I've got 2 pretty unused servers, if u want to host the logs and bot there, ure welcome too
13:44	<sbalneav> root@phobos:/home/drevil/logs/ChannelLogger/freenode/#ltsp# ls \| wc 466 466 10252
13:45	<Lns> I'll host it on my server, it's up 24x7
13:45	<ogra> Lns, that was a suggestion to sbalneav :)
13:45	<sbalneav> got logs going back to 2006
13:45	<ogra> not an existing url
13:45	<Lns> oh :p
13:45	<sbalneav> the're just text files
13:46	<nubae> yeah there are several interpreters that can turn that into a website
13:46	* Lns goes back to messing with the wiki
13:46	<sbalneav> gimme an account on a server somewhere, I'll set up a cron job to rsync 'em on a nightly basis
13:46	<ogra> whats wrong with ltsp.org ?
13:47	<sbalneav> nothing, but how do you go from raw text logs to web pages?
13:47	<ogra> http://www.jwz.org/hacks/irc2html.pl
13:48	thats waht we used in ubuntu for years
13:48	<nubae> sbalneav: give me a pass and Ill set it up for ya
13:48	<sbalneav> on what?
13:48	ltsp.org?
13:48	<ogra> from the awesome jwz (who is also ltsp user in his DNA louge club)
13:48	<nubae> there are lots of scripts to convert
13:48	* vagrantc doesn't see much wrong with raw text logs
13:48	<Lns> ooo, DNA lounge...i remember that guy worked on xscreensaver
13:49	<ogra> (if you ever get to SF, go there for n evening and play with his ltsp boxes ;) )
13:49	* Lns is about an hour North of SF
13:49	<nubae> well the logs need to be archived somehow
13:49	<ogra> Lns, you definately should come to the next UDS in december then, we'll be in mountainview
13:50	<Lns> ogra: totally!
13:50	<ogra> cool !
13:50	<Lns> can you give me info?
13:50	<sbalneav> ltsp.org isn't my box, it's jammcq's and I don't have admin access.
13:50	<ogra> Lns, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UDSJaunty
13:50	<Lns> Also, a sidenote that's kinda cool, my local LUG is doing a talk on LTSP next week. Maybe i'll videotape it and throw it up on YT or something.
13:50	<sbalneav> the bot runs on my box at home, and that's where the logs are.
13:51	<Lns> ogra: ty
13:51	<ogra> sbalneav, you could scp them and jamcq can pull them into the webroot though
13:51	<vagrantc> is there ltsp.org/~sbalneav ?
13:52	<ogra> there was
13:52	<nubae> sbalneav: so u want me to set up an account for u?
13:53	its a debian box in Germany
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13:54	<ogra> dont trust these germans
13:54	<sbalneav> Y'know what? I've got a systemwite hardy upgrade that's stalled because of intermittant slowdowns which have been kicking my *ss for the last 2 weeks, and I've got 100 pissed off users, I've got a ltsp manual that's still a mess, and there's bugs in the bugtracker that I've wanted to look at for months that I haven't got time to do. I don't have time right now to deal with irc logs.
13:55	<nubae> heh, no prob, I'll take care of it then but there will be 2 bots on the channel
13:55	<sbalneav> let me know when it's up, I'll shut down mine.
13:55	<nubae> k
13:58	<warren> nubae: btw, what distro do you use?
13:58	<nubae> debian/ubuntu/fedora
13:58	but mostly ubuntu
13:58	<warren> ok
13:59	<ogra> sbalneav, nah, just keep yours running .... its good to have a backup and its a proven working solution
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14:30	<stgraber> ogra: it rocks !!! I generated a LTSP cluster root image with a single command, no need to manually tweak it.
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14:46	* Lns can't believe moin wiki doesn't have txt/img center formatting.. wtf?
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15:16	* Lns thinks https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP looks a bit better now
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15:44	<monteslu> system is hanging up again
15:45	more nbd errors
15:45	thought i had it solved
15:45	there are no drive errors. I think the hardware is fine
15:46	can anyone vouch for centos5 with ltsp4 ? I'm really in a pinch here, and I've been at it for weeks now
15:47	well whaddya know, I'm seeing errors about no config file on the nbd-server when launching 8.04 server...
15:47	it gets past that and is hanging on crond
15:48	shouldn't there be some default nbd-server config? I know I didn't replace one
15:48	or remove one
15:49	ogra, stgraber, sbalneav ?
15:49	you guys around?
15:50	<stgraber> hmm, yes ?
15:50	<monteslu> any ideas about what needs to be configured for nbd?
15:50	docs are sparse
15:51	<stgraber> hmm, nothing ?
15:51	It just works (tm)
15:51	<monteslu> heh
15:51	<stgraber> I did a bootserver install an hour ago, it generated the chroot and added it correctly to inetd
15:51	<monteslu> unfortunately its initscript is teling me it cant read the conf
15:51	<stgraber> we don't use nbd-server (daemon) but use nbdrootd started from inetd
15:51	maybe that's your problem
15:51	you don't need the initscript
15:51	it's not how you are supposed to start it
15:52	<monteslu> thing is, this is a defualt 8.04
15:52	and things were working for a while
15:53	so I can maybe remove nbd-server from my server?
15:53	or disable it
15:53	<stgraber> no, you need it but it won't be started by init
15:53	<monteslu> seems like it needs to be there because the clients are trying to talk to it
15:53	<stgraber> you should instead make sure openbsd-inetd is installed
15:53	and /etc/inetd.conf is correct
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15:54	<monteslu> ok, I'm in root mode, I can check
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15:57	<monteslu> well, I have stuff in it about nbd, but no idea what it means
15:58	3 lines at the bottom, ldminfod nbdswapd and nbdrootd
16:02	/usr/share/doc/ltsp-server/swap makes it sound like nbd-server is just an option
16:03	and calls it "the hard way"
16:05	this confusing as all hell
16:05	<vagrantc> "the hard way" is the way that doesn't tend to work.
16:06	<monteslu> the doc and the default 8.04 implementation have nothing to do with each other
16:06	<vagrantc> it was mostly created when we first started implementing NBD swap stuff
16:06	<monteslu> vagrantc, so what "should" be happening with 8.04?
16:06	<vagrantc> so it's largely out of date, and ubuntu implemented some things differently from debian.
16:08	<monteslu> I've been using ltsp at this school since early versions of k12ltsp, and this is the first year I've felt like giving up
16:08	Its hard to be a linux evangelist when the system has had about 40% uptime
16:09	so, What should be happening? Should nbd-server be running? Should nbrootd be running?
16:10	<vagrantc> inetd should be running, which should have a line to call nbdrootd when it connects
16:10	ditto for nbdswapd
16:10	good luck, i've gotta run
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16:11	<monteslu> currently the system is hanging on crond on a normal boot. How can I tell the boot order now? I'm not sure if inetd is firing up
16:11	dang
16:11	this was so much easier with run levels and numbers in /etc/rc.X
16:12	<loather-work> yeah seriously, i don't like the derivation from sysvinit either.
16:13	<monteslu> loather-work, its a nightmare to debug
16:13	I have no idea whats launching when
16:14	<loather-work> all in the name of faster boot times :(
16:14	<monteslu> well some idea, but its not like i can boot into recovery mode and easily try things
16:14	<loather-work> i'm of the opinion that you boot the machine once and don't worry about having to reboot it -- it'll stay up indefinitely if you let it
16:14	<monteslu> loather-work, and if the system had some stability. I wouldn't care if boot time was 10 minutes. I'd keep it running 24/7
16:15	<loather-work> i've got some large ethernet switches that take literally 12 minutes to boot
16:15	<monteslu> With ltsp 4 I'd have uptimes of months. Would have been longer but the power was flaky in the building
16:15	<loather-work> i've done well with my haxxed-together early version of 5
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16:15	<monteslu> which distro?
16:16	I'm considering fedora again. It has upstart, but I feel more comfortable with it.
16:17	<loather-work> fedora for the server. ubuntu for the clients
16:17	<monteslu> fedora server for ubuntu thin clients?
16:17	<loather-work> yup.
16:17	<monteslu> wow
16:18	<loather-work> there used to exist an ubuntu 6.10 chroot tarball on ltsp.org
16:18	i used that as a starting point
16:18	<monteslu> I'm confused enough by ltsp5, I dont think i want to complicate it anymore for myself
16:19	I'm kind of interested in warren's fedora 9 stuff
16:19	<loather-work> as am i
16:19	<monteslu> he just posted some interesint local apps things
16:19	I might just bight the bullet and do an install here tonight, and move home directories yet again
16:19	<loather-work> i haven't had a chance to sit down with a throw-away f9 install to mess with it though
16:19	<monteslu> only problem is f10 is coming soon :)
16:19	<loather-work> exactly.
16:20	f9 is already almost obsolete.
16:20	<warren> F9 LTSP5 is a lot more stable than F10
16:20	<loather-work> it's kinda nice that they have a 6 month development cycle
16:20	<warren> I'm doing zero work into F10 at the moment
16:20	I will soon do a media release of F9-based LTSP5 server. You can install from the media and it is 99% configured already.
16:20	<monteslu> warren, is f9 production quality ?
16:20	<warren> to be a LTSP server
16:20	monteslu: yes
16:20	monteslu: with the usual warnings about how long updates go...
16:20	<loather-work> but at the same time it bites you in the ass because in 6 months, right when it's starting to be usably stable, it's already obsolete.
16:20	<monteslu> ok warren I'm giving it a go tonight
16:21	<loather-work> warren: does it try and configure dhcp and all that other stuff too?
16:21	<warren> monteslu: the idea is you use F9 or F10 with LTSP for a while, then later upgrade into EL6 LTSP5 where you wont need to upgrade anymore for many years.
16:21	<monteslu> Gonna replace an 8.04 server with a fedora 9
16:21	warren, el6 with ltsp5 would be my nirvana
16:21	<warren> loather-work: if you install from the media it auto-configures most of it
16:21	<loather-work> warren: ah, that makes perfect sense. Do you know what the timeframe is for EL6?
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16:21	<warren> loather-work: if you install on top of normal F9 you need to follow my step-by-step guide
16:21	loather-work: I don't know the schedule yet, I'm sorry.
16:22	<monteslu> warren, does sound on flash, and thumbdrives work?
16:22	<loather-work> yeah, i don't run dhcp and all that other garbage on the server itself. As far as i'm concerned the ltsp server is just another workstation that happens to have terminals attached to it.
16:22	<warren> although the current release of the f9-based media is from early August
16:22	a bit old
16:22	monteslu: yes and yes
16:22	<loather-work> sound working is nice.
16:22	<monteslu> warren, I could do a f9 install, fully patch it, then follow your guide?
16:23	<warren> monteslu: that's the best way currently
16:24	<loather-work> excellent. warren, thanks for your work on getting fedora where it is with LTSP.
16:24	<warren> oh, sound works only if there are no kernel driver issues with your client hardware
16:24	<monteslu> Oh, also. I'm using an 8 core 16GB server. Is there a 32bit server kernle for the extra ram?
16:24	<warren> I have seen it fail on only some hardware
16:24	I have no clue why
16:24	<loather-work> avoid PAE like the plague.
16:24	<warren> monteslu: let me check
16:24	monteslu: although these days 64bit fedora works very well for desktop and LTSP server
16:25	you'll have more performance that way
16:25	<monteslu> warren, what about flash and sound?
16:25	<warren> yes and yes
16:25	my laptop has F9 x86_64
16:25	<monteslu> I've got dual quad core 64s
16:25	<warren> and my laptop is a LTSP server
16:25	<monteslu> do you have to use the pluginwrapper for flash?
16:25	<warren> The client chroot is 32bit for obvious reasons
16:25	and it works fine
16:25	monteslu: yes
16:25	monteslu: but it works fine for Flash 10
16:26	<monteslu> warren, cool. I'ts been flaky for me on my 64bit f9 desktop
16:26	but thats flash 9 i think
16:26	<warren> Flash 9 itself has major problems
16:26	<monteslu> for sure
16:26	<warren> monteslu: http://macromedia.mplug.org/ follow my guide here (updated every few days) to workaround all the Flash 10 problems
16:26	<monteslu> really wish they just put out a 64bit plugin
16:27	<warren> upstream nspluginwrapper is soon coming out with more bug fixes to make Flash 10 even more stable
16:27	F9 doesn't have those fixes yet, we're waiting for a new upstream release.
16:27	monteslu: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/nspluginwrapper-devel-list upstream list
16:28	<monteslu> warren this is great news, I'm gonna run home burn my 64bit ISO and start the install
16:28	you gonna be around awhile today?
16:28	<warren> not really
16:28	I'm sick
16:28	<monteslu> doh
16:28	<warren> https://fedorahosted.org/k12linux/
16:28	<monteslu> that's cool. Things can't get much worse with the predicament I'm in
16:28	<warren> follow the directions here
16:28	please subscribe to our mailing list and write any notes of what is broken or needs improvement
16:28	<monteslu> I'm on the mailing list :)
16:29	<warren> ok
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16:29	<warren> And later I could really use help to improve and add more documentation there
16:29	I'm focused on fixing things...
16:29	<monteslu> not sure what I've been waiting for, I really miss fedora
16:29	<warren> I suck at documenting.
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16:29	<monteslu> If I can get this school stable again, I'll owe you big time
16:29	<warren> All you need to do to edit the wiki is get a fedora account. You'll find that easily on google. entirely self serve.
16:29	<monteslu> documentation wont be a problem
16:30	<warren> monteslu: the only different and weird thing about fedora LTSP is our bridge thing
16:30	<monteslu> what's that?
16:30	<warren> you have to configure that properly, something that cannot be done manually
16:30	read the docs
16:30	it mentions it
16:30	<monteslu> ok, will do
16:30	<warren> that is the ONLY hard part
16:31	<monteslu> warren, does fedora use nbd-server?
16:31	<warren> monteslu: it is available as an option but not default
16:32	monteslu: see the default dhcpd.conf, you will see where to comment out and uncomment
16:32	<monteslu> cool
16:32	that thing is killing me on 8.04
16:32	<warren> monteslu: and you have to manually run ltsp-update-image to make the chroot into an image file
16:32	<monteslu> ok, that's the same
16:32	<warren> monteslu: test it without nbd at first.
16:32	monteslu: nbd is only a performance boost
16:33	<monteslu> my thin clients are all 512 or 128
16:33	maybe for the 128 ones
16:33	<warren> it doesn't make THAT much of a difference
16:33	it only will boot a thin client a little faster
16:33	<monteslu> then I'll avoid it :)
16:33	<warren> once the thin client is running it doesn't really help
16:33	oh, I could use help documenting that in the wiki
16:33	I don't think it is mentioned at all
16:34	I really gotta nap
16:34	I gotta recover...
16:34	sigh
16:34	<monteslu> thanks for working on this. I really miss using fedora for ltsp
16:34	<warren> I'm still doing 95% of the work
16:34	<monteslu> I'll follow up on the list with how things are going
16:34	<warren> this is an improvement over a few months ago where it was 99%
16:35	a few people are submitting patches and helped with some docs
16:35	<monteslu> well at least its not a separate distro like when eric was doing it
16:35	<warren> yeah
16:35	that was really brutal to him
16:35	he's able to work only on fun things now
16:35	(some fun things are brutal...)
16:36	<monteslu> yeah, but with really cool stuff at least you dont notice the time being spent :)
16:36	I can't wait to try out the local apps stuff you just posted
16:37	i have about 25 or so thin clients with 800mhz and 512, seems a shame not to have them doing some more than just X and print servers
16:37	<warren> local appps needs some work
16:37	it doesn't fully handle sound yet, although it mostly works
16:37	and IM is totally broken
16:37	which you probably don't need unless you do asian languages
16:37	<monteslu> how about sdl things?
16:37	like tuxpaint/tuxtype
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16:37	<monteslu> those things are small but refresh rates are ugly over ltsp
16:39	<warren> I havne't tried them yet
16:39	you can try it
16:39	report your success
16:40	<monteslu> will do. In fact if they fail I'll do what I can to fix them :)
16:40	the developers of those are very responsive
16:40	<warren> good
16:41	monteslu: it will probably be fine. if it fails it is likely a missing dep.
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16:42	<monteslu> I've gotten used to fixing those on fedora. between livna, freshrpms,and atrpms things get broke :)
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16:44	<warren> if there are missing deps REPORT THEM
16:45	<monteslu> will do
16:45	believe me. I have to get this thing working tonight
16:46	you east coast or west coast?
16:47	Well its 2:40 pm here AZ time. i gotta get back to work. But I'll be back at the school after 5 and working until I'm done
16:47	thanks again
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17:39	<warren> monteslu: btw, DO NOT INSTALL ltsp-client on the server
17:39	the new F9 update hitting tomorrow fixes this bug
17:39	but it screws up the server right now
17:40	I suck at stopping and taking a nap...
17:46	<monteslu> hah
17:46	ok,
17:46	I think i got the bridge stuff
17:47	like bridging in vmware
17:47	I dont want to nat though
17:47	just eth0
17:47	my internet traffic passes through an ipcop box
17:49	<warren> monteslu: you need to write the iptables rule for nat for ltspbr0
17:49	not the eth interface
17:49	monteslu: our docs could use examples of that...
17:49	or write your example to the list
17:49	better than nothing
17:54	<monteslu> warren, If I just use a one NIC setup I'll still need to write a nat rule?
17:54	<warren> monteslu: I actually have never used one NIC myself... you're on your own
17:54	I assume you know the dangers of the dhcpd server
17:55	<monteslu> I want this box to be the dhcp server for my network
17:55	<warren> monteslu: eventually the docs need recommendations for one NIC, but for now I'm trying to fix everything for the most common user
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17:55	<monteslu> The most common user uses 2 NICs?
17:55	<warren> ok, I assume you understand dhcpd.conf syntax?
17:55	monteslu: yes.
17:55	<monteslu> I'd disagree :)
17:56	<warren> monteslu: because they don't want to screw their existing school network that has its own dhcp
17:56	<monteslu> yeah, I've got a dhcp.conf on the existing 8.04 box
17:56	I've got 70 thin clients all over the place, so its one big network
17:57	I guess that made sense to keep the network seperate backin '01 or 02 when I was first trying this out
17:57	but the school is 100% ltsp
17:57	and 100% down right now
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17:58	<monteslu> Was hoping the one NIC setup would just work :)
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17:58	<warren> If you know what you're doing, you can do one-NIC
17:58	<monteslu> I imagine it could potetinally be easier since I don't have to NAT
17:58	<warren> and for local apps, you can setup your dhcpd.conf to point at a real DNS server and real gateway
17:58	so you don't need NAT rules
17:58	<monteslu> dhcpd will listen on all interfaces by default right?
17:58	<warren> no
17:58	dhcpd listens on only ltspbr0 by default
17:58	you need to edit the configs if you want something different
17:59	<monteslu> ahh, ok. I'll do that
17:59	<warren> now... I haven't tested if the thin clients respect the dhcpd gateway and DNS server directives
17:59	let me know if it doesn't
17:59	probably an easy fix
17:59	* warren tries to nap again
18:00	<monteslu> It'll probably be a day or two until I get to the point I can play with local apps anyway
18:00	right now just have to get things back up
18:00	and migrate users
18:00	<warren> make sure you start from the fedora dhcpd.conf file
18:00	it is very different by default
18:00	<monteslu> cool. I will
18:00	<warren> it handles a lot of stuff automatically with fallbacks
18:00	<monteslu> any idea where the conf is to specify which interface to listen on?
18:01	<warren> monteslu: same place it has been for many years
18:01	<monteslu> I'm probably just copying over MACs and names
18:01	<warren> monteslu: in fedora and rhel and rhl
18:01	<monteslu> warren, I've never had to change it :)
18:01	<warren> /etc/sysconfig/dhcpd I think
18:01	monteslu: I don't know if you actually need to change it
18:01	<monteslu> ok, cool. I'll look there
18:01	<warren> theoretically the bridge is good enough
18:01	did you figure out how to automatically add eth0 to ltspbr0 at bootup?
18:02	<monteslu> you mean removing networkmanager?
18:02	oh, add it to it?
18:02	nope not yet
18:02	<warren> /etc/sysconfig/network-scripts/ifcfg-eth0
18:02	the docs mention how
18:02	<monteslu> cool
18:02	<warren> anyhow, you don't need to keep the bridge
18:02	OK, Im' really leaving now
18:02	ask the list for help
18:02	<monteslu> hehe, ok
18:02	gets some rest
18:02	I'll need help tomorrow :)
18:03	I'll bug the list tonight
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18:25	<Lns_onsite> Anyone know anything about this regarding LTSP? I'm on-site at one school and I'm seeing, during TC bootup, something similar to the following right after "Setting up LTSP Client" - ..."Negotiation: Invalid operator" - and sometimes it hangs, up to 3-5 minutes, then boots to LDM. I just turned on NBD_SWAP this week and this is happening at 2 sites...also upgraded the chroot with hardy-updates - and that's it. All I've found is this. https://bugs.launchpa
18:25	d.net/ubuntu/+source/linux-source-2.6.20/+bug/136410/
18:26	It usually only happens when booting a bunch of clients at once
18:26	I get nothing useful in chroot logs or on the server
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18:35	<Lns_onsite> [ 27: ?: unexpected operator
18:35	^^ That's exactly what it says when it hangs
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18:38	<Lns_onsite> So weird, googling shows a lot of kernel-level stuff related to that msg
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18:41	<Lns_onsite> wow someone is alive here! =) johnny, have you ever seen " [ 27: ?: unexpected operator" while booting a TC?
18:42	<Ryan52> Lns_onsite: maybe an evil bashism while your using a non bash shell as /bin/sh?
18:42	<johnny> yes
18:43	sounds like it to me
18:43	<Lns_onsite> Ryan52: possibly, yes
18:43	<Ryan52> Lns_onsite: so change your /bin/sh :)
18:43	<Lns_onsite> althoguh I'm not sure where it could be, it references no files
18:43	<johnny> that's cuz Ryan52 is smarter than me
18:43	<Lns_onsite> ;)
18:43	Either something in nbdswapd or in one of the updates in hardy-updates is causing this it seems
18:44	it comes right after "Setting up LTSP client"
18:44	is that ltsp-client-setup script?
18:45	(yep it is)
18:46	<monteslu> Lns_onsite, nbd has caused me so much grief over the last couple of week that I'm switching to fedora tonight
18:46	<Lns_onsite> monteslu: heh, are you having the same issues? What does fedora use, nfs?
18:46	<monteslu> it can use nbd too, but it doesn't by default
18:47	yeah nfs
18:47	<Lns_onsite> I haven't had any issues with NBD until i enabled nbdswap
18:47	<monteslu> I've posted questions to the edubuntu-users list
18:48	I didn't enable anything, but I've been getting tons of nbd error in /var/log/messages
18:48	so the default settings are somehow hosed
18:48	<Lns_onsite> monteslu: have you updated your chroot?
18:48	<monteslu> yup
18:48	<Lns_onsite> was it happening before you did that?
18:48	<monteslu> even followed Jordan's advice on the list
18:48	before and after
18:48	<Lns_onsite> heh
18:49	* Lns_onsite is Jordan
18:49	<monteslu> hehe
18:49	hey, I updated your ticket
18:50	<Lns_onsite> which one is that? to use *-updates ?
18:50	<monteslu> yeah
18:50	well, i added my 2cents anyway
18:50	it seemed to be working for a day
18:50	<Lns_onsite> ty =) I've been updating the ubuntu ltsp wiki with some of this stuff too
18:51	I'm gonna go turn off swap real quick and reboot about 15 stations
18:51	brb
18:51	<monteslu> I've got 70 thin clients and most of them seem to be creating the I/O errors about nbd in the log
18:56	<Lns_onsite> hmm, ok turning off nbd_swap in lts.conf and rebooting about 15 clients didn't give me that msg or hang at ALL
18:56	It's got to be something to do with that
18:56	and if it's just some typo in ltsp-client-setup script...should be trivial to fix
18:58	as Ryan52 said maybe i'll just change /bin/sh to /bin/bash... that'll probably *$#@ the whole chroot up though ;)
18:58	<monteslu> Lns_onsite, you mean hang on the client startup?
18:58	This thing is grinding my server down.
18:58	<Lns_onsite> monteslu: yes
18:58	<monteslu> At least I think it is
18:59	I can't even do a normal boot
18:59	<Lns_onsite> monteslu: no, my server seems to be fine... althoguh it's a 2x dualcore xeon 1.6GHz, 8GB RAM...
18:59	<monteslu> Mine has 8 cores and 16 gigs :)
18:59	<Lns_onsite> hehe
18:59	* Lns_onsite got beat
18:59	<monteslu> ooh, and I have two of them
19:00	my ldap server died though, so I'm just using one right now. Which means I can test fedora9 on the other tonight
19:00	<Lns_onsite> Ryan52: would the 27 in that "unexpected operator" be the line number of the script?
19:00	* Lns_onsite doesn't like this cold server room
19:01	<monteslu> beats the hell out of a loud server room with all the alarms going off :)
19:01	i mean a warm one
19:01	<Lns_onsite> monteslu: ...yes, yes it does. :p
19:01	brb
19:05	<Ryan52> Lns_onsite: I'm pretty sure it is.
19:06	Lns_onsite: changing /bin/sh to bash won't break anything.
19:06	Lns_onsite: bash supports like everything.
19:07	Lns_onsite: if your sure you know which script it is, then just change the shebang to bash. that's probably safer.
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19:08	<Lns_onsite> Ryan52: Just did that, and it seems to still hang, with an additional msg.. "67: Too many arguments"
19:08	Line 67 in ltsp-client-setup is: for i in 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14; do
19:08	if [ -n $(ps ax\|grep nbd$i) ]; then
19:08	NBD_SWAP_DEVICE="/dev/nbd$(($i+1))";
19:08	fi;
19:09	(the if line)
19:10	<Ryan52> ugh. switch to nfs and report the bug, is what I'd do. I can't believe that this problem was introduced in a stable update.
19:10	<Lns_onsite> Ryan52: do you see anything wrong with those lines, or are you just talking in general?
19:10	<Ryan52> oh, wait.
19:10	[ -n $(ps ax\|grep nbd$i) ]
19:11	change to: [ -n "$(ps ax\|grep nbd$i)" ]
19:11	I didn't see that at first, but ya, that should fix it.
19:11	<Lns_onsite> woa
19:11	cool :) ok will try that now
19:12	that'd be so funny if this was the whole issue
19:13	rangerpb is now known as rangerhomezzz
19:17	<Lns_onsite> yikes...now they're all hanging
19:17	"Setting up LTSP Client..."
19:17	"Negotiation: "
19:18	(hangs there)
19:18	bunch of 'dd' proceses running currently
19:19	now some are booted up
19:19	I'm guessing dd is used to create swap files or some crazy thing
19:20	Installing Win2k3 SP2 in a VM probably isn't a good idea to run at the same time as all this either :p
19:21	* Ryan52 wonders where ltsp-client-setup comes from
19:21	nubae has quit IRC
19:23	<Lns_onsite> Ryan52: it comes from ltsp-client-core package
19:23	nubae has joined #ltsp
19:23	<Ryan52> what's the path to it?
19:24	<Lns_onsite> /opt/ltsp/i386/etc/init.d/ltsp-client-setup
19:24	oooo, also found this just now!
19:24	/etc/default/ltsp-client-setup
19:25	yapp..ok, i have to leave now...thanks Ryan52 for the help, i think this is gonna help squash this whole nbd issue thing
19:25	* Lns_onsite waves to chan
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19:53	<jammcq> hello friends
19:53	<monteslu> waddup jammcq
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20:00	rangerhomezzz is now known as rangerpb
20:01	<jammcq> hey monteslu
20:01	<monteslu> I'm headed to the school now, gonna give warren's fedora 9 a shot. 8.04 has been killing me.
20:02	probably my fault
20:02	but at least i know fedora a little better than ubuntu
20:02	<jammcq> wow, cool
20:03	<monteslu> the guys here have been great trying to help me fix 8.04, but it may just not like my new servers
20:03	redhat never did me wrong on dells
20:04	If I could get things stable again, I'd love to contribute. This year I've just been putting out fires
20:13	<warren> I'd love contributions.
20:13	* warren completely failed to take a nap
20:15	<jammcq> warren: hey, how you feeling?
20:15	<warren> jammcq: borderline between lousy and recovering
20:16	jammcq: I'm a little concerned that I wont be able to fly on Tuesday
20:16	<jammcq> fly where?
20:16	<warren> jammcq: Japan
20:16	<jammcq> oooh
20:16	<warren> jammcq: big LTSP presentation/demo
20:17	<jammcq> my guess is you'll be feeling much better this weekend, and tuesday will be easy
20:18	<warren> hopefully
20:18	jammcq: I've been having problems with bleeding from stitches inside the sinuses not stopping
20:18	jammcq: although I discovered today that my diet has been very lousy and I might have a vitamin K deficiency which can contribute to clotting problems
20:19	I ate a lot of spinach today, it might actually be helping
20:19	tomorrow I'm going to overodse on broccoli
20:19	rangerpb is now known as rangerhomezzz
20:21	<warren> jammcq: I rarely had green leafy vegetables prior to the surgery, and I had it pretty much zero times since the surgery. Vitamin K is depleted quickly if you don't intake so it is possible that this has contributed to the problem.
20:22	my diet has been REALLY bad since the surgery mainly because I didn't have energy to get up and out the house
20:24	<jammcq> i'm interested to ask you in 6 months if it was all worth it
20:24	<warren> jammcq: yeah...
20:24	jammcq: actually now it feels like it already was worth it
20:24	jammcq: my sinuses have NEVER drained this easily before
20:24	<jammcq> oh, cool
20:24	<warren> it was literally 85% blocked
20:29	<johnny> yay warren
20:29	nobody would bring you food?
20:29	* johnny feels sad
20:29	<warren> johnny: not nutritious food. a few people brought pizza
20:29	pizza kept me alive but didn't help apparently
20:30	<johnny> you needed a pizza COVERED with veggies
20:30	not just some sprinkled
20:30	<warren> jammcq: I suspect I had a very severe case of deviated septum
20:30	jammcq: other people might be 50% blocked and it probably isn't worth the expense and weeks of being useless
20:32	<monteslu> warren, I've got 16GB of physical ram. A 2gig default swap partition per the installer normal?
20:33	<warren> monteslu: these days with the kernel you need some swap but not much.
20:33	2GB is probably fine
20:33	<monteslu> ok, cool. thanks
20:33	<warren> if you're swapping you're probably in trouble
20:33	4GB wouldn't be bad either
20:33	it can throw stuff in there that isn't being used by anyone
20:33	siki has quit IRC
20:34	<monteslu> I have plenty of disk. Seems like a strange default
20:34	maybe the installer doesn't base it on the amount of physical you have
20:34	edubuntu probably did the same. I dont remeber :)
20:35	<warren> yeah, in the old days the kernel needed an equal or 2x swap in order to balance the VM correctly
20:35	the VM is smarter these days
20:37	<monteslu> oh, will the chroot be updated when yum updates the host system?
20:37	<warren> unfortunately no
20:38	do other distros have a good way of handling that?
20:38	I need something better than "do it manually"
20:38	<monteslu> nope, see this: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ltsp/+bug/277331
20:39	<warren> my docs explain how to do it
20:39	monteslu: oh
20:40	monteslu: that's an Ubuntu bug
20:40	monteslu: ltsp-build-client on Fedora does make the chroot from original + all updates
20:40	monteslu: at the time of ltsp-build-client
20:40	you don't use ltsp-build-client to update your chroot later though
20:40	<monteslu> ok, cool I was wondering if the fedora implementation handled it better
20:41	<warren> Generally you don't need/want to touch your chroot unless you want to fix something?
20:41	Installing random updates just because they are available could possibly make clients not boot
20:41	<monteslu> or if something changes in the protocol for somethign like nbd right?
20:41	<warren> (doesn't happen often)
20:41	well, the important things never change
20:42	<monteslu> another thing, does gnome have a modification so that a thin client can't shut down the server on logout?
20:42	i mean so that its not an option
20:43	or kde for that matter
20:43	I'm going to let the users pick if i can
20:44	pick a display manager, not pick if they want to shut the server down :)
20:45	japerry has joined #ltsp
20:47	<johnny> that'd be just like removing the unmount option on local devices..
20:47	probably just as likely to happen :)
20:49	<warren> wait huh?
20:49	monteslu: displaying Shutdown on the logout screen is a bug
20:49	monteslu: the user cannot actually shutdown the server, permissions successfully prevent that
20:51	<monteslu> strange, I dont have root privileges on my home box , and my normal user can shut down
20:51	<warren> huh...
20:51	hmm
20:51	<monteslu> i mean, i have root password. But I dont log into kde or gnome with root
20:51	<warren> monteslu: wait, you mean the non-root user logged into the LTSP server as setup by Fedora LTSP5?
20:52	monteslu: ConsoleKit on regular Fedora (not LTSP) allows non-root user to shutdown
20:52	<monteslu> ahh, ok
20:52	<warren> monteslu: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=444552 There is no ConsoleKit in the ssh GNOME session of Fedora LTSP5
20:52	<monteslu> I'm not done with my install yet, just shooting questions :)
20:52	<warren> GNOME has a bug when there's no ConsoleKit
20:52	the bug is actually very simple... there is a broken conditional
20:52	I'm trying to make GNOME fix it
20:52	vagrantc has joined #ltsp
20:53	<warren> monteslu: Ubuntu proposed a patch to upstream openssh to integrate consolekit with sshd. upstream rejected it for a few reasons including incompatible license (blocker) and they don't like the design of ConsoleKit.
20:54	Fedora wont ship ConsoleKit sshd support without upstream's agreement
20:54	Ubuntu ships the patched openssh despite upstream.
20:54	<monteslu> hmm...
20:54	so fedora is gonna do the same?
20:54	<warren> Not without upstream's agreement
20:54	We have to fix the GNOME bug
20:55	so it doesn't show useless Shutdown, Hibernerate, Reboot, etc. buttons
20:55	That fixes 95% of the problem
20:55	We do have to support ConsoleKit eventually, but I want to do it properly.
20:56	<monteslu> fair enough
20:56	<warren> The GNOME bug is actually very simple
20:56	I didn't work on it out of principle
20:56	but sadly they have been refusing to work on it
20:58	rixter has joined #ltsp
20:58	<rixter> Hey anyone around?
20:58	<monteslu> does kde do the same thing?
20:59	<rixter> jammcq: have any opinion on gPXE ?
21:00	<warren> monteslu: to be honest I haven't tried KDE so much
21:00	monteslu: due to a separate bug (actually a complete design flaw caused by GNOME narrow mindedness), there remains NO WAY to default to KDE and still have GNOME installed.
21:00	<monteslu> that is awful
21:00	<vagrantc> huh?
21:01	<warren> vagrantc: Debian doesn't use the "upstream" way of sessions so doesn't have this problem
21:01	monteslu: and actually a lot of people aren't happy with KDE 4.x as a full replacement for KDE 3.x
21:01	<vagrantc> warren: apparently with good reason :)
21:01	<warren> monteslu: Fedora currently has only KDE 4.x
21:02	vagrantc: in Fedora 9 it is stupid like this because they didn't finish it
21:02	I suspect it is fixed in Fedora 10 but I have to look
21:02	monteslu: I suspect KDE 4.x will be satisfactory in the next 3-9 months
21:03	<monteslu> Its ok now
21:03	4.0 was bad
21:03	4.1 is good enough
21:03	<warren> oh
21:04	<monteslu> I don't like how they dumbed it down to gnome levels of configuration, but they seem to be adding stuff back every release
21:05	<warren> that's good
21:05	<monteslu> the new app launcher is atrocious, but they include the old one as an option
21:05	they should never require an extra click to drill down into sub menus
21:06	<rixter> LOL... I remember using KDE 2.somethign
21:06	<monteslu> heh me too
21:06	* vagrantc was a fan of konqueror during the KDE 2.x days
21:06	<monteslu> kinda still have a soft spot for early kde
21:07	<vagrantc> think i used konqueror and fvwm
21:07	<monteslu> warren, I'm getting some of the same wierd network stuff that I've got at home on 64bit f9
21:07	seems that the network doesnt want to start up
21:07	i have to force it
21:07	and it doesnt like me specifying IPs
21:08	that a networkManager problem?
21:08	<warren> possibly
21:08	the bridge might not be a good thing for your one-NIC setup
21:08	<monteslu> I'm not even there yet
21:08	<warren> you cannot attach a network card to the bridge if the network card has its own address configured
21:09	and the interface attached to the bridge must not be managed by NetworkManager
21:09	(You might as well turn off NetworkManager entirely.)
21:09	<monteslu> so if I disable network manager?
21:09	<warren> and either way you need to enable the service network
21:09	<monteslu> works for me
21:09	<warren> which is what the documentation says
21:09	<monteslu> right, that's what i tried, and it still isn't coming up
21:10	chkconfig newtworkmanger off
21:10	<warren> service network restart
21:10	?
21:10	<monteslu> and chckconfig network on
21:10	<warren> monteslu: look at your /etc/sysconfig/network-scripts/ifcfg-* files
21:10	<monteslu> ok
21:10	<warren> "chkconfig network on" means "start the network service during boot"
21:10	service network start (or restart) will do it right now.
21:12	<monteslu> right, that's how i have it
21:13	sorry migh bad
21:13	ID 10 T error
21:13	layer 1 :)
21:14	* monteslu wonders why he spelled my "migh"
21:14	<warren> that means you need sleep
21:14	oh man. I need cookies.
21:14	I've been eating nothing but protein and spinach today.
21:14	<monteslu> same here, but i'm temporarily banned from carbs
21:14	need to drop 20, hopefully play some basketball soon
21:15	* warren eating apple
21:17	<monteslu> ooh boy, 387 updates
21:19	I'm getting a megabyte a second. fedora's mirrors kick ass lately
21:19	<rixter> but do you remember Redhat linux with mandrake enhancements?
21:20	<monteslu> i remember mandrake as redhat but compiled with awesome i586 ehancements :)
21:21	<warren> back at the beginning those i586 compiled rpms did make a difference
21:21	but the compiler has improved a lot since then
21:21	<rixter> Best I remember was redhat 6.3 and dependancy hell!!!
21:21	<warren> RH does a significant amount of work on the compiler and glibc
21:21	<monteslu> i dont remember 6.3
21:21	<rixter> Package managers are GREAT!!!
21:21	<monteslu> i remeber 6.2 was an excellent server distro
21:22	<rixter> I LOVE THOSE DEVS!
21:22	<warren> rixter: dude, you are trolling. There was no RH 6.3. And "dependency hell" was a long long long time ago before RH had package management software.
21:22	<monteslu> hehehe
21:22	that's why i dont remeber 6.3 :)
21:22	<warren> Anyway, with improvements to the compiler, since a LONG TIME AGO i586 RPMS are not a performance benefit on the average over i386 RPMS.
21:22	<rixter> I am pretty sure there was
21:23	<warren> i386 RPMS are compiled with i386 instructions and i686 optimizations
21:23	which is actually faster on i686 architecture than i586 instructions
21:23	<rixter> rpm -i blah.rpm .... package failed depends on foo.rpm
21:23	<warren> rixter: Please go away. You are trolling.
21:24	<rixter> what is trolling anyway?
21:26	I was wrong... it was 7.3
21:26	either way it was late '01 or early '02 when I used
21:26	it
21:26	<warren> Oh right. I can simply use /ignore and be suddenly happier and more productive.
21:27	I'm going to sleep. be back tomorrow.
21:27	<monteslu> damn
21:27	see what you did rixter
21:27	<warren> monteslu: use the mailing list, I can't be here every minute holding your hand
21:27	<monteslu> hehe, I know
21:27	i know
21:27	<warren> take care
21:27	<monteslu> you've helped plenty
21:32	Cobratek has joined #ltsp
21:45	<rixter> rjune_: you around?
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22:05	PMantis has joined #ltsp
22:07	<PMantis> HI guys
22:09	So... skolelinux or edubuntu ?
22:09	<johnny> skolelinux?
22:09	wtf hell is that
22:09	<monteslu> fedora
22:09	<johnny> skole is the name of chewing tobacco..
22:09	<monteslu> i mean use fedora
22:09	<PMantis> Skole is an odd(to me) spelling of School
22:09	<monteslu> linux with all the great taste of skole
22:10	<PMantis> LOL
22:10	http://www.skolelinux.org/en/
22:10	<johnny> skole isn't supported by ltsp 5
22:10	<PMantis> And I'm on topic, 'cause it uses LTSP
22:10	<johnny> directly at least
22:10	they have no code in upstream
22:11	edubuntu isn't edubuntu anymore
22:11	it's ubuntu education edition
22:11	<PMantis> Eh, details...
22:11	<johnny> if skole has no code in ltsp 5 upstream.. we can't really help youhere with that
22:11	<PMantis> I use the edbuntu add-on cd, and the splash image says "edubuntu", so.. that's what I call it.
22:12	I'm not looking for any technical help, per se
22:12	Both offers that ability to use a server, and connect thin clients to it.
22:12	Cobratek has left #ltsp
22:12	<monteslu> but all the cool new stuff is ltsp5
22:13	<johnny> they are probably using ltsp4.. which isn't supported by many people here
22:13	very few folks who are around these days really remember ltsp4..
22:13	<PMantis> Well, I can support that. :-)
22:13	<johnny> ltsp4 was it's own distro
22:13	mmcji has joined #ltsp
22:13	<johnny> it has been removed from many distros due to many security vulnerabilities
22:13	<PMantis> However, what I remember of skolelinux is the ability to install a full desktop version that configures itself to use central auth and /home.
22:13	<johnny> i'm sure it can
22:13	<mmcji> howdee
22:14	<johnny> ltsp4 did that just fine..
22:14	it's just not supported or recommended by anybody here
22:14	<monteslu> several people still using it with centos5
22:14	<PMantis> johnny: I have clients that use LTSP4, and have for years - I don't care about support there.
22:14	<johnny> enjoy the security vulns :)
22:14	<monteslu> k12ltsp5-EL
22:15	<vagrantc> skolelinux was the very first linux distribution to make a release that uses ltsp5
22:15	beat the first ubuntu release by a week or two
22:15	<monteslu> thought it was breazy
22:15	<johnny> vagrantc, they have no code in upstream?
22:15	<vagrantc> well, something ltsp5 like
22:15	<johnny> oh
22:15	<vagrantc> johnny: it's the debian-edu(cation) project
22:15	<PMantis> johnny: X over the internal network? Who cares?
22:15	<johnny> PMantis, not just that.. but the krenel itself
22:15	vagrantc, bad name :)
22:15	<mmcji> does ltsp5 work well in vmware-server? I have it installed and i can boot another vm on the same host as the ltsp vm, but when i initiate the pxe connect from the client, the host computer, "in this case a laptop I am using for testing," loses connectivity with it's local wireless lan connection.
22:15	<johnny> lol
22:16	mmcji, sure it works well
22:16	<vagrantc> johnny: there's no "edubuntu" code in upstream either :P
22:16	<johnny> oh.. so it just uses debian :)
22:16	<vagrantc> johnny: it means "school linux" in norwegian
22:16	<johnny> guess they don't know about the chewing tobacco
22:16	lol
22:17	vagrantc, are they using your stuff now?
22:17	<vagrantc> johnny: yes, have been for quite some time.
22:17	<PMantis> johnny: Well, since the grandfather of LTSP still supports it the security vulns can't be that bad.
22:17	<johnny> PMantis, sounds like if you're more comfortable with debian use skolelinux then :)
22:17	<vagrantc> johnny: debian-edu/skolelinux are basically debian's early adopters of ltsp5 ... they give good feedback and bug reports
22:17	<mmcji> johnny: that is good to know, I have no problem booting from the client. I am just not sure why my wireless connection is dropping as soon as the client starts to initiate it's connection to the host
22:18	<johnny> mmcji, try it with a wired connection
22:18	<PMantis> vagrantc: debian, ubuntu, same base...
22:18	<johnny> mmcji, do you have some sort of bridging
22:18	PMantis, the ubuntu ltsp stuff is definitely different than debians
22:18	<mmcji> yes, i am using bridging
22:18	<johnny> not hugely
22:18	but it is
22:18	<rjune_> rixter: sup
22:18	<PMantis> Hey rjune_!
22:19	<johnny> so basically.. choose if you like debian.. or ubuntu.. whatever you're familiar with
22:19	<rjune_> PMantis!
22:19	* vagrantc also is a debian-edu developer :)
22:19	<mmcji> but i put the ltsp on a different network 10.20.0.0/24 vers the host laptop is on 10.10.10.0/24
22:19	* PMantis wishes ogra were here.
22:19	<johnny> ogra is sleep
22:19	<vagrantc> i sometimes upload features to debian-edu before debian proper to get testing and feedback :)
22:19	<PMantis> errr s/were/was/
22:20	<vagrantc> but at any rate, debian-edu's diskless workstation support has been around a long time
22:20	<johnny> but it was ltsp4 before? or some hacked up something else?
22:20	whoa.. that was a loud horn
22:20	vagrantc, i live right by the train station
22:21	<vagrantc> johnny: skoelinux used ltsp4 long before ... but before ltsp5 was ltsp5, debian-edu was using it :)
22:21	was still called muekow ...
22:21	<johnny> vagrantc, good history lesson
22:21	<mmcji> my servers are headless and i was concerned that perhaps I was doing something fundumentally incorrect. I would like to find out why connectivity is dropping before deploying the vm image on a production server. Perhaps I should just do it on the wired connection and it should work?
22:21	<johnny> that should be documented somewhere
22:22	* vagrantc remembers when #ltsp's topic started actually calling it ltsp5
22:22	<johnny> mmcji, your laptop uses networkmanager?
22:22	<PMantis> rjune_: I was told that I shouldn't use LTSP 4, since very few ppl here can support it.
22:22	<johnny> that is true
22:22	<rjune_> that's probably true
22:22	<mmcji> yes
22:22	xubuntu 8.04, 64 bit
22:22	<rjune_> I think most folks went to muekow
22:22	<monteslu> got a MueKow question... I understand having an i386 chroot on an x86_64 server, but why is there an i386 chroot on an i386 server?
22:22	<mmcji> the vm is i386
22:23	<rjune_> there are probably 5 regulars that know enough about ltsp4 to really support it
22:23	<PMantis> rjune_: The humerous part of that is, rjune know that I used to help support it - when I had time to hang out here.
22:23	<johnny> monteslu, because of the specific requirements
22:23	<mmcji> and the ltsp vm server is i386 as well
22:23	<johnny> it's own initramfs
22:23	<rjune_> PMantis: you and me both
22:23	<monteslu> johnny, that's one piece
22:23	<johnny> yes.. just one :)
22:23	the contents of /etc are much smaller
22:24	<vagrantc> monteslu: wouldn't an i386 server want to support i386 thin clients?
22:24	<johnny> hell the contents of everything is much smaller
22:24	vagrantc, he's asking why you can't just use the server
22:24	<monteslu> vagrantc, of course
22:24	<johnny> as the chroot
22:24	<vagrantc> ah.
22:24	<PMantis> vagrantc: So, what neat things can skolelinus do that should make me use it instead of edubuntu?
22:24	<mmcji> i have an old dell dual core sitting with no os on it, think i will just load it w/no vm on it.
22:24	<rjune_> PMantis: ragnar used to be involved in it
22:24	that alone makes it cool
22:24	<vagrantc> PMantis: the ldap infrastructure is all in place, so diskless workstations should work without much hassle.
22:25	<monteslu> but why have a second chroot, i thought the whole point of the muekow epiphany a couple years ago was to avoid that
22:25	<PMantis> vagrantc: I'd like to setup some desktops with HD's but still use /home and authentication from the server.
22:25	<johnny> monteslu, no.. it was to avoid the chroot being it's own distro
22:25	and not maintained by it's own distro tools
22:25	<PMantis> rjune_: Ahhh, ragnar... I remember that nick.
22:25	<vagrantc> PMantis: it's got very good support for that sort of a model
22:25	PMantis: it's a network-oriented distro, really.
22:25	<johnny> ubuntu has no specific support for that
22:25	without hackery
22:25	ie: DIY
22:26	<monteslu> johnny, that's a major point. I just wonderd if the same cpu arch could be shared
22:26	<PMantis> vagrantc: LTSP itself doesn't need LDAP at all, but I've heard it mentioned a few times here... did something change?
22:26	<monteslu> and a chroot for the thin clients that ar different
22:26	<johnny> monteslu, it also makes making the chroot a squashfs easier .. without all sorts of includes/excludes
22:27	<vagrantc> PMantis: it's not needed, but having a centralized network authentication in place makes things like diskless workstations or disked-but-network-dependent workstations easier to implement.
22:27	<monteslu> I guess I'm only asking because I"m sitting here waiting for my ltsp client build to finish
22:27	<PMantis> vagrantc: I like LDAP, because of the ability to use full desktops... and I don't thing edubuntu can do that out of the bo.
22:27	box
22:27	<monteslu> and it seems to be pulling down the kitchen sink
22:27	<mmcji> another question for all you ltsp guru's. Is there a generic cd i can boot from that will allow me to boot an old laptop with pxe. I have some old thinkpad's that I would like to use as thin clients, but they are not natively able to boot via pxe
22:27	<vagrantc> PMantis: skolelinux uses LDAP out of the box.
22:27	<johnny> monteslu, not really..
22:27	monteslu, it's just as much as needed..
22:27	<mmcji> this is not my second full day of playing with LTSP
22:27	<johnny> monteslu, very little bloat on ubuntu
22:27	<monteslu> there's tons of stuff on there
22:27	<PMantis> vagrantc: and a nice GUI to manage the LDAP so I can get the rteachers to admin it too?
22:28	<monteslu> well, maybe its someting in fedora that needs to be tightened up
22:28	<johnny> monteslu, it looks liek tons of stuff.. because there are so many small pieces.. (as is the standard distro way)
22:28	<vagrantc> mmcji: if they have built-in ethernet, probably. if you're using pcmcia NICs or USB NICs, probably not.
22:28	<monteslu> johnny, in that case it would be nice to pull down a bundle
22:28	<mmcji> i mean this IS my second full day of working with LTSP
22:28	<johnny> monteslu, iirc.. warren wrote a comment that there is slightly too much stuff in there.. but it's not that bad
22:28	<vagrantc> PMantis: i think a web interface, but i haven't used it myself.
22:28	PMantis: i mostly just make sure the LTSP parts work :)
22:28	<rjune_> PMantis: so what's new?
22:28	<johnny> monteslu, that's how kiwi ltsp suse thingy works
22:28	<monteslu> johnny, sure is bad when you're tired and waiting :)
22:29	nevermind just finished
22:29	<johnny> you could just go to bed..
22:29	oh
22:29	<mmcji> vagrantc: thanks
22:29	<PMantis> rjune_: keepin busy! I'm considering starting up a payroll and bringing some people on slowly. I just had my 11th anniversary, and I turned 33 2 days ago. You?
22:30	<vagrantc> monteslu: you could build the thin-client environment by using binaries off the server, but then you have to basically re-invent your package manager ... unless you export / over the network, but that has it's own issues.
22:30	<PMantis> skolelinux-cd/debian-edu-etch-amd64-i386-powerpc-DVD-3.0r1.iso
22:30	<monteslu> vagrantc, good point
22:30	<rjune_> PMantis: job offer in GA
22:30	good pay
22:30	* PMantis thinks that a Loooooooooooong name for that ISO
22:30	<vagrantc> PMantis: heh
22:31	PMantis: you might also consider the hopefully-real-soon-now-to-be-release lenny-based debian-edu :)
22:31	<johnny> monteslu, sometimes it's not worth all the hassle to just save a couple hundred mb
22:31	especially in the age of cheap 500G hard drives..
22:31	<PMantis> vagrantc: So it works for powerpc macs intel and amd 32 and 64 bit?
22:31	<vagrantc> PMantis: so i hear :)
22:32	<johnny> if your powerpc mac has a dvd drive..
22:32	<monteslu> well, I have about 50 thin clients with 128 megs of ram. Its cool if the chroot is huge, just as long as its not dumping stuff into memory
22:32	<PMantis> johnny: I have one like that. :)
22:32	<johnny> we had two imacs that i dropped
22:33	instead of dealing with making a chroot on ubuntu
22:33	<rixter> rjune_: how much $$ if you don't mind me asking.
22:33	<johnny> they were too old anyways
22:33	<PMantis> rjune_: That's awesome! My wife's sister recently moved to Atlanta
22:33	* johnny awaits the release of intrepid
22:33	<rjune_> PMantis: this place is in albany
22:34	<johnny> albany seems nice these days
22:34	* PMantis thinks NY when he hears "Albany"
22:35	<PMantis> vagrantc: So, is there any reason to be afraid of using lenny? I'l installing something tomorrow at the school.
22:35	<vagrantc> PMantis: something, as in, production?
22:35	<PMantis> Right now, they're on Ubuntu 6.10, LTSP 4
22:36	vagrantc: Starting the build of a new production machine, yes... wont' be IN production tomorrow, for sure.
22:36	<johnny> hmm. i just can't hang with such old software :(
22:36	at least not for stuff i have to directly use myself.. which is all my usages of ltsp
22:36	<rjune_> PMantis: it's southwest GA, down near Pensecola
22:36	<vagrantc> PMantis: hard call. lenny is in freeze right now, so there shouldn't be significant or huge changes. but when exactly it releases... who knows.
22:37	PMantis: only about 240 release-critical bugs till release :)
22:37	<PMantis> lol
22:37	Well, active development makes me feel better
22:37	<vagrantc> distributed amongst 15,000 source packages, that's not too bad :)
22:37	<PMantis> What's the upgrade path like?
22:39	<vagrantc> almost as good as debian proper :)
22:39	there are a few things preconfigured, which make the upgrade not as totally smooth
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22:41	<johnny> hmm.. i should find out how big the entire src repo is
22:41	if i got all the source packages..
22:42	<PMantis> Ughhhhh, I'm d/ling this DVD at 27KB/sec
22:42	wow, just jumped to 200!
22:43	<rixter> heh sounds like my cell phone highspeed
22:43	<johnny> hope it stays there..
22:43	<rixter> 17k.... 135k....52k....
22:43	<PMantis> heh
22:43	<rixter> it jumps around more than a crack addict
22:44	<vagrantc> PMantis: i think there's also a network install ... then you could use a mirror closer to you
22:44	<PMantis> Seems to be sticking at 160 now.
22:44	6 hours estimated is MUCH better than 1 day, 2 hours.
22:45	For one, I have to leave in the AM... laptop is coming with me, too.
22:46	Are there any screenshots of skolelinux, or a list of current software versions, etc?
22:46	<johnny> screenshots ? i thought all distros looked the same these days :)
22:46	except suse's admin menu :)
22:47	err "start menu"
22:47	<PMantis> I'd like the software to be reasonably recent, was hoping a screenshot could give me a sense of age.
22:47	ugh
22:47	* PMantis thinks johnny is swearing
22:48	<johnny> lol
22:48	more like making the sign of the cross
22:48	maybe it's faster now..
22:48	<PMantis> ~160KB/sec
22:50	I'd like the setup to be pretty slick looking, new software, etc.
22:51	but.. I want better integrated out of the box LDAP for auth plus /home.
22:51	Guess I can't get both right now.
22:51	Q-FUNK has joined #ltsp
22:51	<johnny> suse has that too
22:51	iirc
22:51	cyberorg mentions stuff that that
22:52	<PMantis> Ugh, back to 24KB/sec
22:58	* PMantis notices LTSP-Cluster and BTS 2008 and gets excited
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23:13	<sbalneav> evening all
23:14	<PMantis> Scotty!!!
23:14	<sbalneav> Hey PMantis
23:14	<PMantis> Long time no chat
23:15	sbalneav: So what do you think? edubuntu, skolelinux, or K12LTSP
23:15	heh
23:19	* sbalneav cleans more doco
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23:50	* PMantis becomes a pumpkin
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