IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.libera.chat (webchat)
Channel log from 11 October 2011 (all times are UTC)
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| 00:23 | <jason___> mannnn
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| 00:23 | I thought I'd have some luck here
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| 00:23 | <jason___> thought I could use the build-client --arch=powerpc with all of the mirror tags and it generate
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| 00:23 | it got super far but ultimately failed :(
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| 00:24 | failure trying to run: chroot /opt/ltsp/powerpc mount -t proc proc /proc
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| 00:24 | sigh
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| 00:35 | <jason___> I initially thought perhaps I could bypass the need for ppc if I were to utilize these mirrors but I suppose an AMD proc is downright incapable of generating a PPC chroot. Meh. Worth a shot I suppose.
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| 01:56 | <Levende> I'm not using LTSP, but I am using tftp, nfs and dhcp to boot a diskless node. If anyone has they time to read my post on Linuxquestions: http://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/linux-server-73/diskless-node-unable-to-mount-root-fs-via-nfs-907499/ and provide any insite, that would be wounderful
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| 01:57 | it's booting my bzImage, but eventually it is stalling on: VFS: cannot open root device "nfs" or unknown block(2,0)
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| 11:07 | <muppis> How I can gain access to client X ?
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| 11:11 | <alkisg> !xauthority
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| 11:11 | <ltsp> alkisg: xauthority: To access the thin client X display from ssh or from a local console, try: export $(tr '\0' '\n' < /proc/$(pidof -s ldm gdm-simple-greeter gnome-session | cut -d' ' -f1)/environ | egrep '^DISPLAY=|^XAUTHORITY=')
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| 11:23 | <muppis> I think I'm not sure what I'm trying to do..
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| 11:25 | <Hyperbyte> Haha
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| 11:34 | <muppis> I'm trying to access to same X as user logged in client.
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| 11:36 | Got it.
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| 11:51 | But still having issues about users accessing cdrom.
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| 11:53 | <Hyperbyte> muppis, these wouldn't be UDF formatted CD-roms, right?
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| 11:54 | <andygraybeal> greetings Hyperbyte, and etc
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| 11:54 | <Hyperbyte> Greetings Andy. :P
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| 11:54 | <muppis> Hyperbyte, audio and dvd video.
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| 11:55 | <Hyperbyte> Ah, because only newest of the newest LTSP version supports UDF disks
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| 11:55 | But that's a different issue then.
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| 11:55 | <alkisg> Isn't DVD video udf formatted?
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| 11:56 | And audio again in a non iso96whatever format?
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| 11:56 | So it's probably the same issue... :)
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| 11:56 | muppis: do an fdisk -l, and post the format of the cd
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| 11:56 | (or cat /proc/mounts, whatever works)
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| 11:57 | <muppis> This is mostly acceess right as I add the user to cdrom group, it works.
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| 11:58 | * alkisg thought that ltspfsd was running as root... | |
| 11:59 | <alkisg> Unless, if you're trying to access the cdrom locally without ltspfs
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| 11:59 | <muppis> Yes, locally with vlc.
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| 12:35 | <muppis> Next problem. Upgraded local firefox to 7, now I'm missing localization.
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| 12:35 | language-pack-fi is installed.
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| 12:41 | <Hyperbyte> Install firefox-locale-fi as well
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| 12:42 | <muppis> Thanks.
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| 12:43 | Funny, nowhere mentioned that it's in different package.
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| 12:46 | <Hyperbyte> muppis, I ran into the same problem.
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| 12:46 | Even funnier that it doesn't install it during upgrade.
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| 12:47 | <muppis> So, everything is must done by self.
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| 12:51 | <mgariepy> good morning everyone
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| 12:57 | <Hyperbyte> Morning!
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| 13:06 | <andygraybeal> what are you guys planning for 12.04 lts ??
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| 13:06 | lxde? gnome3 ?
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| 13:06 | <andygraybeal> 2d gnome3?
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| 13:32 | * alkisg will try unity and unity-2d first in classrooms, and if that fails to work, he'll look for kde/lxde/xfce then... | |
| 13:33 | <alkisg> I've tried installing 11.10 in both my daughter and my wife's laptops, after a week they yelled so much I had to put 10.04 back :-/
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| 13:33 | The other daughter with lxde didn't yell :D
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| 13:34 | <mgariepy> hehe, i'm using 11.10 with gnome-shell, it's kinda ok for me now. i'll see how it goes in a few weeks.
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| 13:35 | <andygraybeal> alkisg, okay thank yuo :)
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| 13:39 | <ball> alkisg: I like xfce, wiw.
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| 13:46 | <alkisg> ball: xfce is indeed nice, but it has about the same RAM requirements as gnome2, so there was no reason to switch to it before... maybe now, if unity proves to have usability problems...
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| 13:47 | <alkisg> Btw has anyone gotten unity working in vbox? (the 3d version, not 2d...)
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| 13:54 | <ball> alkisg: Unity would confuse my users, so when the time comes to roll out Linux on the desktop, it'll probably be with Xfce
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| 14:18 | <andygraybeal> yea, i wonder does gnome3 have 2d? or is it 3d?
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| 14:19 | <alkisg> Gnome3 is the whole environment
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| 14:19 | There are 3 shells for it
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| 14:19 | gnome-shell, unity (3d), and unity-2d
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| 14:19 | <alkisg> Unity-2d is a Qt program that looks like unity but it doesn't require 3d accelleration from the graphics card
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| 14:20 | The old shell, i.e. gnome-panel and the rest, is not available anymore unfortunately
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| 14:22 | <andygraybeal> alkisg, okay, thank yuo for helping me understand.
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| 14:22 | is gnome-shell... 2d?
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| 14:23 | is the beryl project (or whatever it's called now) not in use in the future versions of ubuntu?
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| 14:23 | <alkisg> Beryl has been merged with compiz afaik
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| 14:23 | Unity uses compiz, so what was previously beryl is still there
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| 14:24 | I've seen gnome-shell but I don't know if it uses 2d or 3d
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| 14:24 | <alkisg> http://live.gnome.org/GnomeShell/Screenshots
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| 14:26 | <mgariepy> gnome-shell is 3d. the gnome-fallback is not
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| 14:27 | the fallback session is kinda similar to the gnome 2.x
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| 14:28 | <alkisg> Ah, good news, trying that...
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| 14:28 | (the fallback :D)
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| 14:28 | <mgariepy> alkisg, be aware that the magic key is alt.
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| 14:29 | <alkisg> On login?
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| 14:29 | <mgariepy> to play with the panel and stuff
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| 14:29 | haha
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| 14:29 | <alkisg> Ah
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| 14:29 | I thought there was a key while logging in that would get fallback without selecting it at lightdm :D
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| 14:30 | apt-get install gnome-shell => 25 mb, not too much...
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| 14:30 | <mgariepy> alkisg, apt-get install gnome-session-fallback
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| 14:31 | <andygraybeal> aah gnome-fallback :)
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| 14:32 | <alkisg> Hey, there's hope yet!
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| 14:32 | I'm back again in a sane environment! :D
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| 14:33 | <mgariepy> hehe ;)
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| 14:33 | <alkisg> mgariepy: had you told me that 2 weeks ago you'd have saved me from trying kde, xfce, lxde and lots of others :D :D
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| 14:34 | <mgariepy> sorry about that alkisg, but i installed this like last week
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| 14:35 | i was so tire of natty on my laptop.
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| 14:35 | <andygraybeal> is natty 11.04?
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| 14:35 | <mgariepy> i did tried fallback for a day then i went for gnome-shell
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| 14:35 | yeah
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| 14:35 | <andygraybeal> ok, t hank you mgariepy, i get so confused
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| 14:36 | <alkisg> Veeeery nice, the only problem so far is that it only displays a keyboard icon for the keyboard layout, and no [El]/[En]
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| 14:37 | But I think that can be worked-around, to tell it to use flags instead
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| 14:37 | <andygraybeal> is gnome-fallback as 'lightweight' as gnome2 ? if yuo ask me what i'm asking techinclaly - i wont' know how to respond :P
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| 14:37 | <alkisg> OK, we'll need some customizations for 12.04 but the future is bright again :D
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| 14:37 | andygraybeal: quick answer... yes
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| 14:37 | <andygraybeal> alkisg, okay thank you
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| 14:38 | and you said that xfce is much the same 'weight' as gnome2?
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| 14:38 | <mgariepy> alkisg, we can discuss this at BTS since all of the edubuntu council will be there ;)
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| 14:38 | <andygraybeal> hi hi hi ichat :)
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| 14:38 | <ichat> oi people
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| 14:38 | * Hyperbyte bows for the Edubuntu council | |
| 14:38 | <andygraybeal> ichat is my friend from #zentyal :) i want to marry zentyal and ltsp :)
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| 14:38 | <alkisg> mgariepy: indeed, it'd be nice to have that option preinstalled and easily customizable with LDM_SESSION ;)
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| 14:38 | <ichat> lol -
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| 14:38 | <Hyperbyte> andygraybeal, I thought you were gonna say you wanted to marry ichat.
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| 14:38 | <alkisg> Hi ichat
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| 14:39 | <andygraybeal> Hyperbyte, that too :)
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| 14:39 | <Hyperbyte> Hahaha, you beast, you!
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| 14:39 | * Hyperbyte goes back to lurking | |
| 14:39 | <ichat> that couldn't happen they are 2 verry different things, however zentyal will verry likely adopt parts of ltsp in the near future
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| 14:40 | <alkisg> ichat: if that works out as I imagine it, I think many schools will be interested in using the zentyal/ltsp combination
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| 14:40 | (plus windows/samba integration etc)
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| 14:42 | <ichat> alkisg - im commited to intergrating desktop use with zentyal as a small buissnes server. ltsp with thick and thin clients is verry mutch in scope as well as native installed linux desktop clients
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| 14:42 | i really never understould fat clients verrymutch... but i feal that it should be up to the end user (in our case sys admin) to make the final choise
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| 14:43 | <andygraybeal> :))))))
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| 14:43 | <alkisg> !fatclients
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| 14:43 | <ltsp> alkisg: fatclients: You may find some info about the Ubuntu/LTSP implementation of fat clients at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/FatClients
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| 14:43 | <andygraybeal> alkisg, explained to me step by step how to setup a fat client, a month ago :) it was awesome
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| 14:44 | <ichat> alkisg - smb isn't a verry nice network file system, and on a linux base i would probably prefer nfs instead...
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| 14:44 | <alkisg> ichat: zentyal will always continue offering an open source and free (as in beer) solution, alongside any other commercial solutions it may offer, right?
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| 14:44 | We're using NFS with fat clients here as the default
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| 14:45 | <ichat> alkisg - if that is not the case will personally branch it and continue it as FOSS
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| 14:45 | <alkisg> Cool
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| 14:46 | <ichat> being that im not a coding guru this is mostly my trust in the project speeking as it would cost me a great deal of funding to hold it
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| 14:47 | <ichat> alkisg also the fact that zentyal is opting for community management somewhere in the future
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| 14:48 | <alkisg> How versatile is it? E.g. here we need dnsmasq instead of isc-dhcp, because we use cisco routers as the dhcp servers, and dnsmasq in proxydhcp mode for the pxe stuff
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| 14:48 | So would it be possible to disable the dhcp plugin, while keeping the rest of it running?
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| 14:49 | <ichat> in general zentyal is quite modular in what services it provided
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| 14:49 | <alkisg> Nice
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| 14:50 | <andygraybeal> ichat was talking about what they are calling 'zentyal' desktop and whether or not they should use ubuntu and if they do use ubuntu...what 'shell' they will be using in the future (when 12.04 rolls around)
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| 14:50 | <ichat> meaning im running a zentyal server at home with email (for a private domain). with zentyal as my default dns and gateway without dhcp (i use static lease all over the place)
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| 14:50 | <andygraybeal> thats why i started asking questions about it in here.. and then it just became easier maybe if yuo guys talked about it together :)
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| 14:51 | <alkisg> I don't think that LTSP "cares" about the shell that the user uses, though... they're free to choose whatever shell they want
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| 14:51 | <andygraybeal> i'm scared about using 3d stuff with my setup :)
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| 14:52 | <alkisg> If your cards support it, why not... I'm only scared about how well students will receive unity, either 3d or 2d
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| 14:52 | <ichat> andygraybeal - allready notice that, you where talking abotu 2d gnome 3, where i would personally use xfce since its still quite modular, moderatly lightweight
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| 14:52 | <andygraybeal> err.. i guess my users too.. like you said.
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| 14:52 | <ball> andygraybeal: By "shell", do you mean graphical desktop?
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| 14:53 | <andygraybeal> ball, yes, sorry i dont' know the terminalogy well....
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| 14:53 | zsh is supposed to be bad ass :) but i still use bash :P
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| 14:53 | <Hyperbyte> Screw the users, I'm more worried about -my- user experience!
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| 14:53 | <alkisg> Hehe
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| 14:53 | <andygraybeal> hahah, Hyperbyte :)
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| 14:53 | <ichat> Hyperbyte - lol - how about simplicity by design
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| 14:53 | <Hyperbyte> I've honed my BOFH skills pretty nicely, they'll use whatever I shove down their throats here. They went from Windows to Linux without too much complaints.
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| 14:54 | <ball> andygraybeal: I'm hoping to use Xubuntu because neither Unity or KDE appeal to me.
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| 14:54 | <Hyperbyte> I think I've just gotten too much used to Gnome 2 to make these drastic changes.
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| 14:54 | <ichat> ball - neither do i like xubuntu-desktop (the dep package)
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| 14:54 | <andygraybeal> ball, good choice, i'm still hoping things work out for me :) we're on gnome2.. and i'm afraid my users would scream if i change **AGAIN*** :) in their minds.
| |
| 14:55 | we just moved from using WindowsXP last year or so.
| |
| 14:55 | <ball> ichat: For Ubuntu, I think those are the three main options: KDE, Unity and Xfce
| |
| 14:55 | <ichat> andygraybeal - the most heard of complaitn about xfce in my experience is that its a cheap gnome 2 ripoff ... i wouldn't worry so mutch
| |
| 14:55 | <alkisg> Hyperbyte: other than the greek captions, this shouldn't look unfamiliar... ;) http://imagebin.org/index.php?mode=image&id=178477
| |
| 14:56 | There's hope yet in the world
| |
| 14:56 | <ichat> ball - a third is ubuntu from scrath, creating your own meta package and default settings
| |
| 14:56 | <ball> ichat: I barely have the time to learn Linux as it is, without injecting that into the mix.
| |
| 14:56 | <andygraybeal> alkisg, :) is that the gnome-shell-fallback?
| |
| 14:56 | <alkisg> Yup
| |
| 14:57 | <Hyperbyte> alkisg, I think it looks horribly bland.
| |
| 14:57 | But maybe that's just the theme you have chosen.
| |
| 14:57 | <alkisg> It's the default one
| |
| 14:57 | <Hyperbyte> :(
| |
| 14:57 | <alkisg> But with a better wallpaper it'll look better :D
| |
| 14:57 | <ichat> ball - thats why im looking for some ubuntu guru to teach me... and push it for zentyal desktop
| |
| 14:57 | <Hyperbyte> Oh also
| |
| 14:58 | You need a higher screen resolution.
| |
| 14:58 | That screenshot takes up 1/4th of my monitor.
| |
| 14:58 | No kidding.
| |
| 14:58 | <ball> I don't know what a Zentyal is.
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| 14:58 | <alkisg> Hyperbyte: Nope, I want my VMs to be small :D
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| 14:59 | <Hyperbyte> alkisg, bah. :P
| |
| 14:59 | <ball> alkisg: if your desktop size impacts your VM, then.... I dunno.
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| 14:59 | <alkisg> Hyperbyte: also, I think I'm the only one that prefers a 24" monitor with 1366x768 instead of full HD :D
| |
| 14:59 | ...yet I can't find any :(
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| 14:59 | <Hyperbyte> alkisg, wtf... my phone almost has a higher resolution than that.
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| 14:59 | <ball> alkisg: You'e not likely to.
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| 15:00 | <ichat> ball is emagin webmin but with fewer options (manageble by the user that is) more newby proof) and geared to a small buyssness server like email groupware network management and comunitation
| |
| 15:00 | * ball is running 1152x864... should probably unpack the flat screen that's been sitting around for a few months. | |
| 15:01 | <Hyperbyte> alkisg, using a 24" screen with 1366x768 resolution is driving a Ferarri at 10 kilometers per hour on the highway
| |
| 15:01 | :(
| |
| 15:01 | It just shouldn't be done.
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| 15:01 | <ball> ichat: Wow... that sounds hideous.
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| 15:01 | <alkisg> Hyperbyte: well, the icons are still 16x16
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| 15:01 | <Hyperbyte> Either way, gotta go!
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| 15:01 | <alkisg> bb :)
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| 15:01 | <Hyperbyte> ball, yes, damn any project that attempts to spread this Linux thing to the less knowledged sysadmins. :)
| |
| 15:02 | <ball> Hyperbyte: It's not that... I /want/ Linux to be more useable. I'm not keen on the kitchen sink route though and Web interfaces tend to suck.
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| 15:02 | <ichat> Hyperbyte - im stil one of the lucky ones owning an old laptop that still works with more than 1600*850 on a 17inc screen...
| |
| 15:02 | <Hyperbyte> You and I sir, are leet Linux hackers, who despise webmin. We don't need inferior tools like that.
| |
| 15:03 | But let's not forget that it is -these- tools that help lots of people to get into Linux. :)
| |
| 15:03 | I applaud you, ichat.
| |
| 15:03 | Which doesn't at all change the fact that I -have- to go. Bye!
| |
| 15:04 | <ichat> c y around mate
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| 15:05 | <andygraybeal> gah.. you guys are hating on me :P
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| 15:05 | i need something like zentyal to have email.
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| 15:06 | <andygraybeal> thank god alkisg is willing to hold my hand any time i have a problem.
| |
| 15:06 | * alkisg is hoping to focus on his phd and spend *much* less time here, at least for this year :D | |
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| 15:07 | <ichat> ball - let me say this im not a leet linux guru guy, i would have to read the man page for every command and script that i create... but : when changing a password for a user and i want it to change for every service i run on that server.. i have 2 options... script it or not script it
| |
| 15:07 | but as sone as you make this scrip its an interface...
| |
| 15:07 | it may not be grafical ... but it is a UI
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| 15:07 | <ball> A script is fine, or even something curses-based if need be.
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| 15:08 | <ball> ...hell, even an X client admin package.
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| 15:08 | I'm not keen on Web front-ends.
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| 15:09 | <ichat> ball so im the linux enthousiast i can find my way arround and maybe i can sligthly adapt this scriptfile to suite me better.. but for the next guy its as un-changable as any gui either web or gtk base
| |
| 15:10 | its only a means to an end
| |
| 15:11 | <ball> I've been looking for an admin-friendly OS to replace what I'm currently using. Can't find one that isn't tied to a single hardware vendor though.
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| 15:11 | <alkisg> !SCREEN_02 | echo TheProf try this:
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| 15:11 | <ltsp> TheProf try this: SCREEN_02: to get a root shell on an Ubuntu thin client: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/ClientTroubleshooting#Using%20a%20shell%20SCREEN
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| 15:12 | <ichat> ball what in your view is an admin friendly os
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| 15:12 | <alkisg> An os that doesn't need admins :P
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| 15:13 | ...but it'll take years to make that a reality :D
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| 15:13 | <ichat> haha
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| 15:13 | <ball> alkisg: That's pretty much what I was looking for: something where I could make a few pages of "here's how you add a user", "here's how you back everything up" &c.
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| 15:14 | <alkisg> Right, same here, "here's how you create 200 users, here's how you make shared folders for classes" etc
| |
| 15:14 | * ball nods | |
| 15:14 | <ichat> ball sound to me your looking for a system like zentyal - if you get over your webfrontend-fobia
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| 15:15 | <ball> I think we'll have to go with Linux. We're on a college campus, so they should be able to find someone to replace me if I get hit by a bus or emmigrate to Canada or something.
| |
| 15:15 | <ichat> however im a the first to agree if you say that it might stil be to basic or its missing crucial features in its interfaces...
| |
| 15:16 | however it IS user friendly up to the part where it says, here is the place to create 200 users
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| 15:17 | <andygraybeal> haha immagrate to canada, nice.. montreal or BC is my choice.
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| 15:17 | <ball> I have family in BC but I have my eye on Newfoundland
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| 15:17 | ...don't tell the missus.
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| 15:17 | <andygraybeal> nice :)
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| 15:18 | <ichat> canada, sound great AND cold...
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| 15:18 | <ball> ichat: Illinois is not exactly toasty in the winter.
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| 15:18 | <andygraybeal> as long as you can grow the green stuff without the helicopters coming over once a month during harvest season, that is all i want.
| |
| 15:18 | <ball> -20C for days on end.
| |
| 15:18 | ...my Canadian friends laugh at me when I tell them that
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| 15:18 | "It's -40C here forever"
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| 15:19 | <ichat> lol it usually doesn't get below -10 here
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| 15:19 | and where allowed to grow 5 green plants here per household
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| 15:20 | <ball> ichat: Just 5?! I pray that I never live somewhere that restrictive.
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| 15:20 | <ichat> but i dont smoke 'm anymore ....
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| 15:20 | ball its actually legit over there?
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| 15:20 | <ball> ichat: Oooooh, those kind of plants!
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| 15:21 | <ichat> what where you talkin about ?
| |
| 15:21 | i know i wasn't talkin coffeebeen
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| 15:22 | and certainly not rise either
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| 15:24 | * ball goes back to thinking about ltsp | |
| 15:25 | <ichat> haha
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| 15:25 | <andygraybeal> ball, nice
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| 15:29 | <ball> I've actually started thinking about individual Linux workstations instead of LTSP, just because Flash seems such an obnoxious CPU-sink
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| 15:30 | <alkisg> ball: why not ltsp fat clients then?
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| 15:30 | They go exactly as fast as individual installations
| |
| 15:30 | And you only have to maintain 1 chroot
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| 15:31 | <ball> alkisg: I've not heard of them.
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| 15:31 | <alkisg> !fatclients
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| 15:31 | <ltsp> alkisg: fatclients: You may find some info about the Ubuntu/LTSP implementation of fat clients at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/FatClients
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| 15:33 | <ball> Oh great, a new name for diskless workstations.
| |
| 15:33 | * ball sighs | |
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| 15:34 | <ichat> ball - what do you mean
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| 15:34 | <alkisg> "fat" makes a contrast with "thin" clients :)
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| 15:34 | Both fat and thin are diskless...
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| 15:35 | mgariepy: did you find a way to set the fallback session as the default for all users (non ltsp)?
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| 15:35 | <ball> "thin client" is the new name for graphical terminal. "fat client" seems to be the new name for diskless workstation.
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| 15:35 | the difference being where the apps are run
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| 15:35 | e.g. X terminal ("thin client") Vs. Sun 3/60 ("fat client")
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| 15:35 | <alkisg> "diskless" tells me that the client doesn't have a disk
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| 15:35 | It doesn't tell me anything about where the apps run though...
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| 15:36 | <ball> alkisg: Historically it did.
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| 15:36 | <ichat> i just dont se the use in fat clients copared to local booting a terminal service client
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| 15:36 | <ball> alkisg: ...I guess every generation wants to invent new names for things.
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| 15:36 | <alkisg> OK, but it's still not a good name to differentiate between thin/fat clients
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| 15:36 | Thins also have localapps, new names are generated as they're needed
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| 15:37 | <ball> I don't think they were needed, but I accept that they exist and I'll just work around it.
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| 15:37 | <alkisg> Also, "x-terminal" doesn't tell anything to someone that runs RDP
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| 15:37 | <andygraybeal> localapps is complex and causes issues caused me headaches.
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| 15:37 | * alkisg doesn't use localapps either, but they're useful to make people | |
| 15:37 | <alkisg> *many
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| 15:38 | <ball> alkisg: RDP is just another graphical terminal protocol
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| 15:38 | <alkisg> So you'd call them rdp-terminal then? And invent a new terminology?
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| 15:38 | <ichat> why would i use pxe if i could just as easily use a flash disk with a a boot rom. (like booting from a cdrom)
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| 15:38 | <ball> alkisg: No, I'd call them graphical terminals.
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| 15:38 | ...because that's what they are.
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| 15:38 | <alkisg> ball: and if you only had SCREEN_07=shell?
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| 15:38 | Console terminals?
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| 15:39 | <ball> alkisg: If that means what I think it does, I'd call them "terminals"
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| 15:39 | ...just like we did twenty years ago.
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| 15:39 | <alkisg> I call terminal my xterm or gnome-terminal, so I wouldn't understand that this means a netbooted client
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| 15:40 | <alkisg> The basis to all is just a remote disk
| |
| 15:40 | <ball> alkisg: I think it's just a generational difference.
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| 15:41 | <alkisg> So anyway, if you want try fatclients (or diskless workstations, as you call them), they may suit your needs better
| |
| 15:41 | We use them in more than 100 schools here with no problems
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| 15:41 | A fat chroot also supports for booting thin clients, and localapps, and everything, you don't need multiple chroots
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| 15:41 | <ball> alkisg: Sounds like you've given them some testing then.
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| 15:41 | <alkisg> Yup
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| 15:42 | <ichat> alkisg - could you explain ? why i would want botting over pxe rather than from a cdrom/usb/flashdisk provided thate in boot cases i would run from ram
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| 15:42 | <andygraybeal> <-- wants his kids to grow up in the greece school system
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| 15:42 | <ball> ichat: Less to manage for one thing.
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| 15:42 | <alkisg> ichat: to maintain 1 chroot instead of e.g. 200 individual pcs
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| 15:43 | Also it's way faster than cdroms or usb sticks
| |
| 15:43 | It's about the same as a local harddisk installation
| |
| 15:43 | E.g. in some labs it boots in 13 seconds
| |
| 15:43 | And of course it allows for all the ltsp customizations
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| 15:44 | Setting screen resolution ,sharing printers etc
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| 15:44 | [pc01]
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| 15:44 | XRANDR_MODE_0=1024x768
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| 15:44 | <ball> alkisg: What kind of switches do you use?
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| 15:44 | <alkisg> Etc etc, see lts.conf for all the settings
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| 15:44 | <andygraybeal> making sure that there can be only 1 user logged in at a time, if you wish (which i just learned two weeks ago)
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| 15:44 | <alkisg> ball: mostly the ones mentioned in that wiki page
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| 15:44 | !lts.conf | echo ichat:
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| 15:44 | <ltsp> ichat: lts.conf: http://manpages.ubuntu.com/lts.conf
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| 15:44 | <ichat> so why wouldn't i juse an ide flash disk with a kernel xserver maybe a browser and run the rest on the server over rdp by passing the whole pxe stuff still being able to manage all software that is crucial
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| 15:45 | <ball> alkisg: Network switches I mean
| |
| 15:45 | <alkisg> Ah. Each school manages its own hardware. Most have cheap switches with 1 gigabit port, e.g. d-link, zyxel etc
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| 15:45 | <ball> ichat: Because then they're not stateless.
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| 15:45 | <alkisg> ichat: how much time would it take you to install 200 ide flash disks/
| |
| 15:46 | And, rdp is slow, you can't watch HD video with it
| |
| 15:46 | (not even low divx video)
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| 15:46 | With LTSP I can have a fat client lab ready in 1 hour, with 10 clicks
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| 15:47 | <ichat> alkisg - about 10minutes pluss the time that clonezilla (or other software) needs to push the update?
| |
| 15:47 | <alkisg> But if I tried to install locally to e.g. 100 workstations, it'd take me too much time, and it'd be much harder to maintain
| |
| 15:47 | And what do you use for software updates/installations?
| |
| 15:47 | Clusterssh?
| |
| 15:47 | Or clonezilla for each update?
| |
| 15:48 | E.g. suppose I want to install tuxpaint. I chroot apt-get install tuxpaint and I'm ready. You?
| |
| 15:49 | <ichat> alkisg - i would only update my clients if there would be need for it... and i would also run most if not nearly all software on the server (thin)
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| 15:49 | <alkisg> The problem with thins is that the screen travels over the network
| |
| 15:49 | And that's not good enough for multimedia apps, like web browsing, openoffice, gimp etc
| |
| 15:50 | That's why we use fats where our clients are good enough
| |
| 15:50 | <ichat> i mean - if you run thin clients - than why puth so mutch strain on your network sending up to 50 or mor mb per bootup?
| |
| 15:50 | <alkisg> We're talking about fat clients now, not thin, right?
| |
| 15:50 | A client boot needs about 20 mb
| |
| 15:50 | * ball ponders | |
| 15:50 | <alkisg> Then it needs normal disk access, for which gigabit is sufficient
| |
| 15:50 | <ichat> no sorry i was refering to thins
| |
| 15:51 | <alkisg> ichat: ok, what's your question again? I thought you were talking about fats
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| 15:51 | <andygraybeal> ichat, remember alkisg is saying thins and fats, both don't have harddrives. i don't want ot get in the way ofyour conversation, but I want to make sure you understand that detail.
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| 15:51 | <ichat> why should i not use local boot rom disks
| |
| 15:52 | for thin clients
| |
| 15:52 | <alkisg> ichat: for thin clients? well, you have no reason to use disks then
| |
| 15:52 | A client boot needs 20 mb
| |
| 15:52 | A 10 second youtube video needs more
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| 15:52 | <ichat> its really that small
| |
| 15:52 | <alkisg> So why would you try to save just 20 mb for the boot, when you'll need much more after?
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| 15:53 | When clients boot, they don't read the whole disk
| |
| 15:53 | <ball> If you put local disks in them, then surely they're not thin clients?
| |
| 15:53 | <ichat> alkisg - i allways assumed that it would be about 50mb (quite like for example the size of DSL
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| 15:53 | <alkisg> The disk may be 10 Gb and the clients can read only 20 mb
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| 15:53 | Typical size is 220 MB compressed, 550 uncompressed
| |
| 15:53 | (for recent ubuntu thin clients)
| |
| 15:54 | But the clients don't download it
| |
| 15:54 | They mount it remotely, and only read the "sectors" they need
| |
| 15:54 | <andygraybeal> ball, alkisg describes thins and fats ... both as diskless.
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| 15:54 | <ball> Is the mount done over nfs?
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| 15:54 | <alkisg> Ubuntu uses NBD by default, but can also use NFS
| |
| 15:54 | Debian uses NFS by default
| |
| 15:54 | <ball> andygraybeal: Right. I was confused more by ichat.
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| 15:55 | <alkisg> In both cases the client only reads the files or sectors it needs to boot, not all of it
| |
| 15:55 | <ichat> ball - booting the xwindow system with an open rdp client and exactly nothing more from a local compact flash card in my view would still be a thin client...
| |
| 15:56 | <andygraybeal> ball, okay sorry i missed ichat's detail. i'm confused too :P
| |
| 15:56 | <alkisg> ichat: true. When your client boots, does it read all the contents of the flash card, e.g. DSL? Usually no, only the bits it needs (unless you're using a customized distro that loads all of it to RMA)
| |
| 15:56 | * ball adopts the British solution... brb, tea. | |
| 15:57 | <alkisg> It's the same in ltsp, you can have a 220 Mb "flash disk" (the network disk on the ltsp server), and the netbooted client will only read 20 mb of it
| |
| 15:57 | <ichat> alkisg - i see
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| 15:59 | <ichat> alkisg - i once opted for a fat client that at boot time would check its file version and only downloaded a new one if it where outdated.
| |
| 16:00 | but i couldn't find a bootloader that could do this
| |
| 16:01 | <alkisg> ichat: you can do that from a simple script in the initramfs, but there's no need to have a local disk at all
| |
| 16:01 | The client mounts the disk over the network and it doesn't download it
| |
| 16:01 | So there no need to check for newer versions etc, it always uses the last version
| |
| 16:12 | <ichat> alkisg - like i said i was looking for ways to be able to minimize the initial boot size network load etc... but if its so small impact like you told me, i guess there is hardly need for it
| |
| 16:13 | im only trying to learn
| |
| 16:14 | <alkisg> Yes, thin client screen updates need 10 times more bandwidth than their booting
| |
| 16:14 | So the booting part is insignificant
| |
| 16:16 | For fat clients on a very slow network it would indeed make sense to cache the networked disk locally. I want to explore options to do that in the future.
| |
| 16:16 | (where again with fat I mean netbooted diskless workstations that mount e.g. a 5 gb virtual disk over the network)
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| 16:25 | <ball> alkisg: Would you cache the image in RAM?
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| 16:26 | <alkisg> ball: for fat clients? no, I was talking about caching it to local disk, but that's a very specific use case, I hope I didn't confuse you guys with it
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| 16:27 | <ball> I understood that you were talking about something you don't routinely do now.
| |
| 16:28 | ...but in the next breath you talked about diskless things and I thought perhaps you were going to cache in RAM
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| 16:29 | <alkisg> ball, btw, are you currently using LTSP?
| |
| 16:30 | <ball> alkisg: No. It's on my list of things to do.
| |
| 16:41 | alkisg: I have a fleet of aging XP machines and would love to spend some money on a decent server with Linux and LTSP and recycle the old machines as thin clients until such time as we can afford to buy new (built-for-the-purpose) "thin client" terminals.
| |
| 16:41 | <alkisg> ball: how much ram do those have?
| |
| 16:43 | <ball> 1 Gbyte
| |
| 16:43 | (mostly)
| |
| 16:43 | <alkisg> They should work fine as fat clients then
| |
| 16:44 | Try installing ubuntu in one of them
| |
| 16:44 | If it goes OK, then you can see the same result with a fatclients installation
| |
| 16:45 | (or any distro, I'm just saying ubuntu because it has a fatclient plugin)
| |
| 16:46 | <ball> I don't know how well they'd handle heavy things such as Flash
| |
| 16:47 | ...they don't have GPUs that can accellerate Flash
| |
| 16:47 | I suppose Flash is going to be awful on almost any platform
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| 16:47 | <alkisg> With 1 gb ram (and I assume a matching CPU) I bet they'll show it better locally than as thin clients
| |
| 16:48 | <ball> alkisg: What do you consider a matching CPU? ;-)
| |
| 16:48 | <alkisg> A 4 year old cpu?
| |
| 16:48 | Or 5...
| |
| 16:49 | Here any labs with > 512 MB ram we use them as fat clients
| |
| 16:49 | <ball> alkisg: 1 GHz VIA C3 chip
| |
| 16:50 | ...probably about equivalent to an 800 MHz Pentium III
| |
| 16:50 | ...perhaps a little weaker on the FPU side.
| |
| 16:52 | <alkisg> Yeah I'd still use them as fat clients. They'd launch things more slowly but the UI would be a lot smoother. But safest thing is to try them both ways. And for thin clients it depends on how good your server is too.
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| 17:10 | * ball nods | |
| 17:10 | <ball> ...and that's a challenge for us.
| |
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| 17:10 | <ball> can't afford the kind of server I would like
| |
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| 17:12 | <ball> I have to go.
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| 19:16 | <andygraybeal> sup sup sup!
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| 19:37 | <Hyperbyte> andy andy andy!
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| 19:37 | <andygraybeal> hi Hyperbyte
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| 20:23 | <jason_____> PPC documentation - https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/PowerPC
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| 20:23 | work in progress
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| 20:23 | but opinions are welcome
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| 20:24 | <alkisg> (and the lack of full blown PowerPC support in Linux) ==> ?
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| 20:24 | Doesn't linux work ok in your ppcs?
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| 20:24 | <jason_____> I wasn't sure how to word that
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| 20:24 | and yes it does work okay
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| 20:25 | <alkisg> sudo apt-get install ltsp-server-standalone openssh-server ==> openssh-server is a dependency so it's redudant
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| 20:25 | <jason_____> I think I was getting at the fact it's not officially supported
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| 20:25 | so if the user runs ltsp-server-standalone they'll grab openssh-server automagically?
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| 20:25 | F5
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| 20:26 | <alkisg> You should mention "ubuntu" then, not "linux"
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| 20:26 | E.g. debian supports it officially afaik
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| 20:26 | <jason_____> ah yes
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| 20:26 | they do
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| 20:26 | funny, Debian gave me far more trouble with PPC than Ubuntu did
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| 20:26 | <alkisg> (11:25:25 μμ) jason_____: so if the user runs ltsp-server-standalone they'll grab openssh-server automagically? => yes, and a lot more like nbd
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| 20:26 | sudo mv /var/lib/tftpboot/ltsp/powerpc/yaboot yaboot.old => this moves it to your current directory
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| 20:26 | Maybe cd first and mv after
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| 20:27 | <jason_____> good catch
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| 20:27 | <alkisg> filename "/ltsp/powerpc/pxelinux.0"; ==> i386 there
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| 20:27 | pxelinux is not for powerpcs
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| 20:27 | <jason_____> f5
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| 20:27 | right
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| 20:28 | I just pulled that from the crossarch page
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| 20:28 | I'll edit it quick too
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| 20:28 | <alkisg> sudo /etc/init.d/networking restart etc => usually "service" is preferred for those, e.g. sudo service networking restart
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| 20:28 | <jason_____> I figured it didnt hurt being in there in case they were running a mixed environment
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| 20:28 | of ppc and i386
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| 20:28 | <alkisg> sudo ltsp-update-sshkeys && image => not needed, you changed your IP that's why you had to run those
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| 20:29 | <jason_____> I put that there under the assumption they WOULD change their IP
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| 20:29 | <alkisg> Maybe put them in a different section, "after you move to the i386 server you need ssh keys + image"
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| 20:29 | <jason_____> because what I pasted there is just an example
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| 20:29 | so it'll almost be guaranteed that they'd change their IP
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| 20:29 | maybe I should just put a notation there?
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| 20:29 | <alkisg> They'd change their dhcpd.conf, not their ip
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| 20:30 | <jason_____> ops
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| 20:30 | that's the other part I forgot
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| 20:30 | like I said, work in progress!
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| 20:30 | <alkisg> I'd put them in a section titled "What you need to do after moving the chroot from the powerpc to your production server"
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| 20:30 | Otherwise it seems fine so far, good work :)
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| 20:30 | <jason_____> I hope someone can find this usable.
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| 20:31 | <jason_____> I want to make it as brainless as possible to set up so that way even not-so-tech-savy librarians from public libraries could set up an environment like this
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| 20:31 | a lot of public libraries received hand-me-down g3/g4's
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| 20:31 | so they're perfect candidates as well
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| 20:37 | <Hyperbyte> Jason, your nose is growing.
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| 20:37 | <jason_____> lol?
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| 20:37 | <Hyperbyte> First you were 'jason' in here
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| 20:37 | Then 'jason_'
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| 20:37 | Then 'jason___'
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| 20:37 | And now jason_____
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| 20:37 | <jason_____> oh
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| 20:37 | that's because of freenode's web thing
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| 20:37 | when I use xchat on my linux systems it works fine
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| 20:38 | but when Im on my macbook @ work I just use the web link
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| 20:38 | but it acts a little weird... I just tolerate it...
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| 20:38 | <Hyperbyte> I think it has more to do with nicknames jason, jason_, jason__, jason___ and jason____ already being in use
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| 20:38 | But alas... I was just making an observation anyways. ;-)
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| 20:39 | <jason_____> yeah
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| 20:39 | when I use xchat I come over as "roasted" since I registered on taht nick
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| 20:39 | I'm sure you guys have seen that user in here before :P
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| 20:39 | <Hyperbyte> Interestingly enough is that jason___ is also you
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| 20:40 | <jason_____> pardon?
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| 20:40 | <Hyperbyte> Not?
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| 20:40 | Yes, that is you.
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| 20:40 | <jason_____> not sure I follow - are you saying there's more than one jason___ ?
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| 20:40 | I only see one in here
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| 20:40 | <Hyperbyte> Type '/whois jason___'
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| 20:40 | Should work with the webclient.
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| 20:41 | <jason_____> for some reason I often lose connectivity to freenode here
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| 20:41 | so when I do and I reconnect, it adds a _
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| 20:41 | <Hyperbyte> Idle a bit over two hours, in #ubuntu.
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| 20:41 | :)
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| 20:41 | <jason_____> I'm in #ubuntu?
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| 20:41 | wait...
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| 20:41 | <Hyperbyte> Hahah
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| 20:41 | <jason_____> stupid mac
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| 20:42 | I had two chrome's open
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| 20:42 | one was hiding
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| 20:42 | that was me ;)
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| 20:42 | <Hyperbyte> Ha!
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| 20:42 | <jason_____> seems as if my 11.04 install is missing a /etc/resolv.conf file
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| 20:42 | nice?
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| 20:43 | <Hyperbyte> That file is made automatically by networkmanager, or ifup script I think.
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| 20:43 | <jason_____> maybe that's why
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| 20:43 | <Hyperbyte> I don't think it's there by default.
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| 20:43 | <jason_____> I killed off network manager already
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| 20:43 | I just touch'd another one
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| 20:45 | <alkisg> Heh, tinycorelinux boots in 3 seconds in my VM
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| 20:45 | I wonder if we could put some of the ltsp-client magic in it :P
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| 20:46 | <jason_____> sounds like it'd be a perfect match
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