IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.libera.chat (webchat)
Channel log from 15 August 2019 (all times are UTC)
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| 12:43 | <Filipe96> alkisg, you know any tutorial to installation ltsp for rapsberry clients?
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| 12:50 | someone know any tutorial for installation of ltsp for raspberry clients?
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| 12:53 | <alkisg> !raspberrypi
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| 12:53 | <ltsp> raspberrypi: (#1) Ubuntu/LTSP on Pi 2: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/RaspberryPi, or (#2) Debian/LTSP (with raspbian chroot) on Pi: http://cascadia.debian.net/trenza/Documentation/raspberrypi-ltsp-howto/, or (#3) unofficial Ubuntu/LTSP (with raspbian chroot) on Pi: http://pinet.org.uk/
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| 12:55 | <gbaman> Well, isn't that an oddly timed coincidence alkisg :)
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| 12:56 | One thing worth keeping in mind is don't think any of the options work with Pi 4 just yet though
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| 12:56 | (PiNet certainly doesn't... Still stuck up against what I am assuming are graphics issues with LDM instantly crashing)
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| 13:05 | <alkisg> gbaman: I have the first ltsp19 packages in the ppa ready, you might want to rebase pinet on them
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| 13:06 | <gbaman> ltsp19?
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| 13:06 | <alkisg> Yes, the new ltsp, as the old one is not maintained anymore
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| 13:06 | !installation
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| 13:06 | <ltsp> installation: To install the new LTSP, start there: https://github.com/ltsp/ltsp/wiki/installation
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| 13:06 | <gbaman> Completely new LTSP that will break everything?...
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| 13:06 | <alkisg> Yes, or fix everything, it depends on if you're optimist or not
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| 13:06 | <gbaman> :)
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| 13:07 | I guess at this point, with so much breaking PiNet in Buster, not much to loose...
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| 13:08 | <alkisg> gbaman: you're not using ubuntu, right? So you don't care if ubuntu 20.04 ships with ltsp5 or ltsp20, correct?
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| 13:08 | <gbaman> On the client or server? PiNet recommends Ubuntu for the server side
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| 13:09 | (mainly given general ease of use of Ubuntu for none Linux experienced teachers)
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| 13:09 | <alkisg> We can't have separate packages on ubuntu for ltsp server vs client
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| 13:09 | They'll either be both ltsp5,or ltsp19
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| 13:09 | (or ltsp20)
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| 13:09 | But note that noone will maintain ltsp5
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| 13:09 | So someone should step up and maintain it if he wants ltsp5 over ltsp19
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| 13:10 | <gbaman> Well, if ltsp19 fixes what I have broken in front of me (without breaking too much else), then I am happy to migrate over
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| 13:10 | <alkisg> I'm pretty sure ltsp19 will fix things BUT it will require integration work
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| 13:10 | As it doesn't care at all about backwards compatibility etc
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| 13:11 | <gbaman> Is it at the point of being ready to actually use though?
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| 13:12 | <alkisg> Now it's alpha; in a couple of weeks it'll be beta; in September it'll be used in schools
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| 13:12 | <gbaman> Ohh, I see the timeline now
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| 13:12 | <alkisg> Currently it can boot any .deb-based distribution after and including ubuntu 16.04 and debian jessie
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| 13:12 | <gbaman> Is the LDM replacement bit done?
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| 13:12 | <alkisg> Yes
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| 13:13 | It's all done, except for half of the lts.conf parameters
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| 13:13 | <gbaman> Then that sounds like a lot of the stuff I need is there
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| 13:13 | Aww, shame to see ltsp-remoteapps go
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| 13:13 | <alkisg> Most lts.conf parameters will be implemented over the next couple of weeks, and a few will be implemented later, or none at all
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| 13:13 | ltsp-remoteapps can be implemented with ssh keys and ssh -X
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| 13:13 | nothing important there
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| 13:14 | Although, that won't work with wayland, as there's no ssh -X there
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| 13:14 | <gbaman> Haha yeah I know, is what I was doing for some of the PiNet pieces anyway
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| 13:14 | Raspbian dropped Wayland plans a while back
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| 13:14 | <alkisg> I'm sure that means "postponed"
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| 13:14 | In 10 years when no xorg exists at all, I doubt they'll be the ones that maintain it
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| 13:15 | <gbaman> Haha, I think long term postponed is best way to put it
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| 13:15 | <alkisg> I'm guessing in 5 years many apps will depend on wayland and won't run on xorg
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| 13:15 | We'll see; in any case trying to support wayland is a good thing
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| 13:15 | <gbaman> Yip
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| 13:20 | <gbaman_> So is login done via a custom LTSP ltsp application like LDM, or via pam module in this new version?
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| 13:20 | <alkisg> PAM
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| 13:21 | So you'd be using the stock lightdm of rasbpian
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| 13:21 | <gbaman_> Ahh cool
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| 13:33 | So am I right in saying there is no ltsp-client package now?
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| 13:58 | <alkisg> gbaman_: the ltsp-client package is now named ltsp
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| 13:58 | <gbaman_> So all merged into 1 package then
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| 13:58 | <alkisg> There's no ltsp-server package; one would install: apt install ltsp dnsmasq nfs-kernel-server etc
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| 13:58 | Yes
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| 13:58 | And all interpreted, so it's sent from the server, it doesn't even need to be installed on the clients
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| 13:58 | I.e. you could directly boot the raspbian image without ever even installing it anywhere
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| 13:59 | <gbaman_> So no additional packages are required on the Raspbian image?...
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| 13:59 | I was about to go install the ltsp package on it
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| 14:00 | <alkisg> I helps if it's there
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| 14:00 | It save 1 MB RAM :P and it ensures that squashfs and overlayfs are there
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| 14:00 | But squashfs and overlayfs are usually there anyway, and 1 MB isn't important, so...
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| 14:02 | <gbaman_> So what has changed around how I actually get into an LTSP boot mode from the Raspbian standpoint? In the past the entrance in was an LTSP specific init file that I was calling from the cmdline parameters, that now changed then?
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| 14:03 | <alkisg> Yes, the fact that the ltsp initrd is sent, signals an ltsp boot mode
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| 14:03 | !ltsp-initrd
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| 14:03 | <ltsp> Error: "ltsp-initrd" is not a valid command.
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| 14:03 | <gbaman_> Ahh, so it is just hard coded in the initrd
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| 14:03 | <alkisg> https://github.com/ltsp/ltsp/blob/master/man/ltsp-initrd.8.md
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| 14:03 | If you boot kernel, initrd,it's normal mode
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| 14:04 | if you boot kernel, initrd, ltsp.img, it's ltsp mode
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| 14:04 | It's not "hardcoded", it's just a cleaner way to do it
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| 14:05 | !learn ltsp-initrd as Creates the ltsp.img initrd add-on: https://github.com/ltsp/ltsp/blob/master/man/ltsp-initrd.8.md
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| 14:05 | <ltsp> The operation succeeded.
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| 14:13 | <gbaman_> So alkisg ltsp-chroot is gone then?
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| 14:14 | (or an equivalent that is)
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| 14:14 | <alkisg> Yes, chroots have problems, they shouldn't really be used with the "chroot" command
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| 14:14 | One can use VM, qemu, nfs-rw booted clients etc
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| 14:14 | But of course if one wants to maintain a chroot, then ltsp-image is happy to use it
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| 14:15 | <gbaman_> What was wrong with the old approach? Worked great for PiNet
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| 14:15 | <alkisg> We just don't provide tools to generate or maintain chroots; but we can use them if the user does maintain them
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| 14:15 | There are many packages that can't be installed in chroots, because they break, because they don't see systemd or dbus or sysvinit etc running
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| 14:15 | Or they leave mounts running, breaking even the host
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| 14:16 | <gbaman_> So the solution is actually "booting" them up
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| 14:16 | <alkisg> Right; or use lxc or whatever else is more stable than plain "chroot"
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| 14:16 | Unfortunately developers don't care a lot if their packages don't work in chroots
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| 14:26 | <gbaman_> So, am I right in saying then the kernel/initrd are standard, with no extra stuff injected inside? Then the ltsp.img has all the extra bits in it?
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| 14:26 | <alkisg> Yes, ...except...
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| 14:27 | Live CDs do have the squashfs module in the initramfs. So one can use the stock kernel/initrd, and append the ltsp.img
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| 14:27 | But if one has a VM without the ltsp package, its initramfs doesn't have the squashfs module
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| 14:27 | <gbaman_> See, the bit I am missing I think is how to get it loading the ltsp.img?
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| 14:28 | <alkisg> So, if he runs `ltsp image` to generate vm.img, then the stock kernel/initrd can't read it
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| 14:28 | In that case, one would install the ltsp package inside the vm, which would run `update-initramfs` on postinst, and put the squashfs module in the initrd
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| 14:28 | So the ltsp package inside the chroot/vm/etc is necessary only for when the squashfs module is missing
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| 14:29 | Are you using NFS or NBD with pinet?
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| 14:29 | <gbaman_> Makes sense
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| 14:29 | By default, NBD with squashfs images, but also do support NFS as the share
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| 14:29 | (I generally debug with the NFS option so don't need to recompress each time)
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| 14:30 | <alkisg> You can use a VM instead, but anyway,
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| 14:30 | by default raspbian doesn't have an initramsf
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| 14:30 | So you'd need the ltsp package in order to automatically generate one
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| 14:30 | <gbaman_> Well, had numerous issues with trying to make Raspbian play ball inside a booted Qemu VM
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| 14:31 | <alkisg> You can maintain it from a client, by booting the VM from the client in rw mode
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| 14:31 | <gbaman_> Yeah, currently got a test set of boot files with an initramfs that has squashfs included :)
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| 14:32 | Along with the ltsp.img file sitting on the sd card as well
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| 14:33 | So I am guessing, all that I have left is the right kernel cmdline
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| 14:33 | <alkisg> Eh, sure, although I'd put bootcode.bin in the card and have the others on the server
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| 14:34 | <gbaman_> Think to make that work, that would take a little bit more tweaking? Unless you have their custom dhcp option in dnsmasq default?
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| 14:34 | Given it doesn't implement normal pxe
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| 14:35 | <alkisg> dhcp-mac=set:rpi,b8:27:eb:*:*:*
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| 14:35 | pxe-service=tag:rpi,X86PC,"Raspberry Pi",unused
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| 14:35 | !ltsp-dnsmasq
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| 14:35 | <ltsp> Error: "ltsp-dnsmasq" is not a valid command.
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| 14:35 | <gbaman_> And actually, in saying all that, Pi 4 is broke anyway for network booting right now :)
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| 14:35 | <alkisg> It should work with a card with bootcode.bin
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| 14:35 | But not without the card
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| 14:35 | <gbaman_> My understanding was Gordon hadn't even written the bootcode.bin bit yet for Pi 4?
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| 14:36 | <alkisg> !learn ltsp-dnsmasq as Configures dnsmasq for LTSP: https://github.com/ltsp/ltsp/blob/master/man/ltsp-dnsmasq.8.md
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| 14:36 | <ltsp> The operation succeeded.
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| 14:36 | <gbaman_> But, I do conveniently have a Pi 3B+ in front of me as well
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| 14:36 | <alkisg> I don't know, last time I checked they were saying that it runs fine, and I tested it in my rpi2 at the time and it worked
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| 14:36 | <gbaman_> Yeah, they released Pi 4 without support for network or USB booting of any sort
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| 14:36 | <alkisg> But I only work on maintaining ltsp for raspberries when someone hires me to do so, so... it's been more than a year now
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| 14:37 | <gbaman_> But difference is the bootrom this time is stored on an SPI flash chip, so it can be upgraded
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| 14:37 | So they have said they will get around to it at some point, just ran out of time to rush the Pi 4 out
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| 14:38 | <alkisg> ...as long as they manage to create a working bootcode.bin later on, all is fine
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| 14:38 | <gbaman_> Haha, yeah it's coming
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| 14:38 | But ok, I will try out on a Pi 3B+ today then
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| 14:38 | Does mean I need to fix the kernel situation though first
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| 14:39 | Actually, maybe will stick with just it all on the card just to make sure it works first
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| 14:39 | <alkisg> Sure, that's more certain to work
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| 14:39 | <gbaman_> Yeah
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| 14:39 | <alkisg> And it gives better error messages :)
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| 14:39 | I don't have automatic kernel updates implemented yet
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| 14:39 | <gbaman_> Haha, you mean "actual error messages"
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| 14:40 | Well, PiNet previously handled that itself
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| 14:40 | Given don't think the LTSP version existed when I initially needed it
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| 14:41 | <alkisg> I think I implemented that before pinet
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| 14:41 | <gbaman_> I am a long way from any sort of public release though, so intention would be eventually to release with bootcode.bin mode only anyway
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| 14:41 | <alkisg> To boot some old compex cards
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| 14:41 | <gbaman_> So what cmdline parameters are you passing in when it boots over pxe?
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| 14:42 | <alkisg> !ltsp-ipxe
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| 14:42 | <ltsp> I do not know about 'ltsp-ipxe', but I do know about these similar topics: 'ltsp-pnp', 'ltsp-info', 'ltsp-pam', 'ltsp-site'
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| 14:42 | <alkisg> Meh I don't have anything :P
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| 14:42 | <gbaman_> I literally just found my own way there anyway at same time
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| 14:42 | <alkisg> !learn ltsp-ipxe as Install iPXE binaries and configuration in TFTP: https://github.com/ltsp/ltsp/blob/master/man/ltsp-ipxe.8.md
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| 14:42 | <ltsp> The operation succeeded.
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| 14:43 | <alkisg> https://github.com/ltsp/ltsp/blob/master/ltsp/server/ipxe/ltsp.ipxe
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| 14:43 | The parameters are there ^
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| 14:45 | And from a live client: termbin.com/b2fu
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| 14:45 | You don't need max_part since you don't have ubuntu clients
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| 14:52 | <gbaman_> Yeah, it doesn't like that given it wants an init=
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| 14:52 | (although that might be coming from the main initrd coming from an LTSP5 build)
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| 14:53 | <alkisg> init=/sbin/init is assumed when init isn't present
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| 14:53 | It's from a running client, the syntax is fine
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| 14:54 | Are raspberries able to load 2 initrds?
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| 14:54 | <gbaman_> See that is an important question
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| 14:54 | <alkisg> Otherwise you need to concat them
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| 14:55 | <gbaman_> Because I have never done it in the past
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| 14:58 | So the main way I have done it in the past is using the initramfs parameter in the config.txt instead of in the cmdline.txt file
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| 14:58 | https://www.raspberrypi.org/documentation/configuration/config-txt/boot.md
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| 14:58 | But I just gave it a go there with both in the config.txt file, funny feeling it is only running the 2nd one
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| 15:19 | <alkisg> gbaman_: that might be; start with concatenating the two initrds into one
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