IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.libera.chat (webchat)

Channel log from 2 September 2008 (all times are UTC)

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01:50	<Nubae> arghh this is nuts... how can we expect more users to start using ltsp if there aren't even any installation instructions on the edubuntu pages? the Install instructions are so outdated they predate me starting to use it...
01:51	the documentation sections should have a simple easy link to: how to install a LTSP based Ubuntu environment, or some such
01:52	https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/LTSPQuickInstall - that is the real install page
01:52	why is there no direct link from edubuntu's main page?
01:53	<lejo> it seems a wiki, add it yourself? :)
01:55	<Nubae> I'm working on the documentation for all ltsp and just working on ubuntu specifics... once I'm done, I'll consider doing that... I'm not a canonical employee though
01:58	<cyberorg> Nubae, start here: http://wiki.ltsp.org/twiki/bin/view/Ltsp/Documentation
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02:03	<Nubae> thanks for the link... I'm just working on ubuntu specifics... I guess Suse comes next according to that page ;-)
02:05	question is do we do it sub sections, like so... Installation (then Ubuntu install, Suse install, Fedora install, etc)?
02:05	<lejo> the nice thing about LTSP on suse it that you don't need to configure anything ;)
02:05	or almost anything
02:07	<Nubae> ok, is there a simple, howto install ltsp on suse somewhere?
02:07	the kiwi-ltsp pages linked from ltsp are not that logical... just need instructions for installation, nothing more at this point
02:09	http://en.opensuse.org/LTSP/Quick_start?
02:09	<cyberorg> Nubae, even better http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NCDfnImh67E
02:11	<Nubae> a youtube video, in a documentation pdf?
02:11	<cyberorg> i must make a better quality video after i learn how
02:11	Nubae, no, just to give an idea about the process, then you can refer to all the Quickstart pages
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02:11	<cyberorg> ubuntu page linked fomr ltsp.org is well organized too
02:11	<Nubae> ok... cool, with the 2 I can put something together you're right
02:11	well organised without installation instructions :-)
02:11	<cyberorg> all ltsp related pages http://en.opensuse.org/Category:LTSP
02:11	Nubae, first link points to the one you mentioned
02:11	*ubuntu's
02:12	https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP
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02:12	<Nubae> ah true... it does have the quick install
02:12	but it is the only install
02:13	maybe should be renamed to how to install
02:13	<cyberorg> Nubae, i am impressed with ubuntu's meticulousness in wiki, we link it from opensuse ltsp pages too :)
02:14	<johnny> uggh
02:15	i wonder why it won't get my tftp prefixed file
02:15	<Nubae> but if you were a normal user and wanted to install ubuntu educational version with ltsp, where would u go first?
02:15	<johnny> one client sees TFTP prefix: /ltsp/x86/ the other seems nothin.. and thus can't get the file
02:15	<Nubae> probably not ltsp right, probably ubuntu or edubuntu
02:16	<cilkay> I can answer that. All over and not accomplish anything :)
02:17	I've deployed LTSP once, about 7 years ago. I wanted to deploy LTSP with local apps for a school computer lab but finding docs for any distro has been a challenge.
02:17	I've given up on the idea and I'm just going to do an automated installation.
02:17	<johnny> thats' because the functionality is not complete
02:17	it's finally coming into fruition now
02:18	the breakthrough was ssh folks adding a patch for statfs calls
02:18	means we can just use sshfs
02:18	<cilkay> I read that somewhere, ye
02:18	s
02:19	<cyberorg> cilkay, hi :)
02:19	<cilkay> hi
02:19	<cyberorg> you were asking about opensuse ltsp last night while i was sleeping :)
02:20	<Nubae> cilkay: what u can do is install low fat client
02:20	docos are on that link from ltsp that cyberorg pasted
02:20	<cyberorg> cilkay, http://en.opensuse.org/Category:LTSP here is everything there is available
02:20	<cilkay> low fat... with Splenda :)
02:20	<Nubae> hehe, stupid name, but it stuck
02:21	<cyberorg> cilkay, what you need is local app, it works but it is in very early stages of development
02:21	<cilkay> I read that and it was scary.
02:21	See, I can tolerate stuff like that.
02:22	<Nubae> its still being tested even under development distros like ubuntu intrepid... I wouldn't recommend that
02:22	<cilkay> This is slated to replace Windows so I don't want glitches.
02:22	<Nubae> downloading workstation plugin and installing that is much easier
02:22	<cyberorg> cilkay, it works for most simple applications firefox is built in, if the server is 32bit you should be able to use all the plugins installed on the server
02:22	<cilkay> I don't know what the workstation plugin is.
02:23	<cyberorg> anything more complicated than that is unpredictable
02:23	<Nubae> or is it more advanced on Suse?
02:23	<cilkay> The server is 64 bit but it doesn't have to be I suppose.
02:23	<Nubae> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/LTSPFatClients
02:24	<cyberorg> cilkay, i suggest give all available ltsp implementation thorough testing and use the one that suits your requirements
02:24	<Nubae> I'm curious about suse ltsp... but the install cd was broken from my magazine... =)
02:25	<cyberorg> most development work is done now on fedora, ubuntu is in better shape than most at the moment, suse has some additional features not available elsewhere
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02:26	<cyberorg> debian is quite good too, they just had nbdroot implemented, and bug johnny to get gentoo in shape
02:26	<cilkay> Ubuntu ltsp was easy to install but the tools didn't match the ltsp docs.
02:26	<cyberorg> so pick your poison :)
02:26	<cilkay> I know what they'll say at the school - Windows :)
02:27	<johnny> cyberorg, closer ever day lately
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02:27	<Nubae> dont give them a choice
02:27	<cyberorg> cilkay, spend couple of days with each, you can serve windows using ltsp too
02:27	<Nubae> just install ltsp with some distro and install wine for the few idiots remaining
02:28	or send them to a windows session
02:28	* Nubae sighs
02:28	<cyberorg> cilkay, see easy-ltsp GUI, it has easy way to configure rdesktop client
02:28	<cilkay> BTW, in my test environment, I managed to virtualize Windows 2003 Server using VMWare Converter. I then deployed the VMX it created on VMWare Server running on Ubuntu.
02:28	It worked like a charm.
02:28	<johnny> just set it up to get a remote tftp lts.conf, cleaned up my init scripts, added more deps to the builds
02:28	<Nubae> cyberorg: are there instructions... I need to integrate into documentation
02:29	<lejo> cyberorg: serving windows using ltsp? :)
02:29	<cyberorg> cilkay, you wanted boot menu option, with ltsp you can have linux on tty7 and windows on tty8 if you want simultaneously
02:29	<cilkay> Via rdesktop I presume.
02:29	<cyberorg> ys
02:29	lejo, interop ;)
02:29	<Nubae> links please
02:29	<cilkay> Against Terminal Server or against Windows running in some VM?
02:30	<cyberorg> Nubae, what distro are you running at the moment?
02:30	<Nubae> various doesnt matter its to integrate into docs
02:30	<cyberorg> cilkay, against windows serving rdp via linux terminal server
02:30	Nubae, just install easy-ltsp ;)
02:30	<cilkay> Which Windows?
02:31	<cyberorg> Nubae, fedora and suse packages http://download.opensuse.org/repositories/server:/ltsp
02:31	<Nubae> those arent instructions for all distros, it probably doesnt for all of them
02:31	doesnt exist
02:31	<cyberorg> cilkay, XP and w2k can do rdp?
02:31	<cilkay> XP Pro can, one session only though.
02:32	W2K Pro can't.
02:32	<cyberorg> Nubae, rdesktop should work on all distros equally
02:32	<Nubae> right
02:32	<cilkay> W2K Server can but you'll need Terminal Server.
02:32	<Nubae> but not easy-ltsp
02:32	gonna have to look at the code right?
02:33	<cyberorg> cilkay, just enable rdp add all users to remote desktop users list, and test it, i have tested with only one client on w2k server, i dont have any windows here
02:33	Nubae, easy-ltsp is distro independent too
02:33	<Nubae> but does it exist for every distro?
02:34	<cyberorg> Nubae, fedora, suse and let me find debs(test) for ubuntu
02:34	<Nubae> does it exist for gentoo for example?
02:34	<cyberorg> Nubae, source tarball for everyone else :)
02:34	<Nubae> hmm thats true
02:34	good point
02:34	<cyberorg> till someone packages it
02:35	<Nubae> no easy-ltsp on ubuntu
02:35	8.04.2
02:35	which means its not on debian either
02:35	<cyberorg> get it from https://build.opensuse.org/project/show?project=home:japa83
02:35	<Nubae> so just rpms
02:35	guess we could convert with Suse's tool
02:35	or alien
02:36	ah ok, so thats already been done
02:36	nice
02:36	but its not a simple apt-get install
02:37	<cilkay> I just found out about Cobbler http://cobbler.et.redhat.com/ Might be some useful functionality there for LTSP.
02:37	It's Python so it'll install on just about anything.
02:38	<lejo> I think the main idea of cobbler is to 'deploy' (=install) new virtual machine
02:40	<cilkay> Not just virtual machines.
02:40	<Nubae> there is also dbxe or soemththere is also DRBL
02:41	diskless remote boot linux... that works quite well
02:41	if u want thin 'fatty' clients
02:41	meant to say, there is also DRBL
02:41	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diskless_Remote_Boot_in_Linux
02:41	<cyberorg> Nubae, there are debs https://build.opensuse.org/package/show?package=Easy-LTSP&project=home%3Ajapa83
02:42	<Nubae> cyberorg: I saw... and buntu packagaes... but is it integrated into any distros repos yet?
02:42	<cilkay> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/LTSPFatClients mentions the need to fix broken packages after installing lots of packages in the chroot environment. Why not build the machine using debootstrap?
02:42	I use debootstrap all the time to deploy in Xen.
02:42	<Nubae> well... the idea is to customize the thin client environment
02:43	it shouldnt really break, and doesnt if u install using --workstation plugin
02:43	<cilkay> ok
02:43	<Nubae> but the biggest problem is architecture changes...
02:43	<cyberorg> Nubae, no, it was part of this years GSOC, just completed
02:43	<Nubae> ldap suddenly works totally different, so it stops working
02:43	or nfs works different
02:44	I was working on making a more complex script that added ldap and home nfs functionality...
02:44	proper low fat clients... but ldap and nfs both are dogs of technology right now
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02:45	<cilkay> LDAP makes me shudder. I've burned a lot of time chasing the Holy Grail of Single Sign On.
02:45	<Nubae> cyberorg: ok, nice... so it will be I guess... one can always update documentation.... does one always need a username and pass to download though?
02:45	cilkay: just needs good instructions for installation... otherwise its ok...
02:46	<cilkay> Including a stint with FreeIPA this summer.
02:46	<cyberorg> Nubae, not on publised packages, debs are not published yet
02:46	<Nubae> remember the 2 sides, server and client and u get the picture... on that page the instructions are client side ONLY... it infers you have a working ldap server
02:46	<cilkay> And Fedora Directory Server, a.k.a. Red Hat Directory, a.k.a. Netscape Directory Server.
02:47	<Nubae> cilkay: thats supposed to made a big change from being a lump of garbage to being really nice alternative to openldap
02:47	<cyberorg> if the debs meet ubuntu and debian's packaging standards they will be available from http://download.opensuse.org/repositories/server:/ltsp
02:47	<Nubae> how about we put them somewhere else for the time being
02:47	so I can link to them from documentation?
02:47	your wiki =)
02:48	<cilkay> FreeIPA in particular will be awesome once it's ready for prime-time. It might be in RHEL but not so on Debian/Ubuntu.
02:49	<Nubae> choosing a distro is like playing russian roulette sometimes
02:49	<cyberorg> Nubae, they will be available immediately once someone from debian or ubuntu has a look at the packages
02:49	<Nubae> cyberorg: and the other distros?
02:50	we need to link a .tgz somewhere
02:50	<cyberorg> Nubae, fedora and suse ones are already in repo that does not need login, ubuntu and debian will be there too
02:50	http://developer.novell.com/wiki/index.php/Easy-LTSP
02:51	<Nubae> and the the tarball is there too somewhere?
02:51	<cyberorg> svn repo is there
02:51	i can put up tarball there
02:52	there is this page too http://en.opensuse.org/Easy-LTSP
02:53	<Nubae> binaries are there too I see
02:55	ok... so explain a little more about what it does... I get its to manage ltsp... but imagine there was documentation for it... what would a paragraph describing what it does sound like =)
02:56	maybe some bullet points on what it does, including doing the windows rdp thing
02:57	<cyberorg> Nubae, rdp thing is ltsp feature, easy-ltsp helps create/manage lts.conf easily :)
02:58	<cilkay> cyberorg: "b) LTSP5 now comes with real local application support, so schools that require resource heavy apps can now off load them to the client." makes it sound like fat clients are not so experimental after all. I think your fingerprints might be on that document :)
02:58	<cyberorg> just run it you'll see how simple we have made it, we kept ogra's mom in mind when designing it :)
02:58	<Nubae> I know but in documentation i will need to explain it... just saying just install it is a bit weird
02:58	<cyberorg> i mean run it you will find words to describe it :)
02:59	<Nubae> for example... for more complicated tasks like x,y,z
02:59	ok... I guess that works too
02:59	<cyberorg> Nubae, my whole approach to ltsp implementation is get it working first then you can mess with documentation if something does not work
03:00	everything should "just work" under most circumstances
03:00	<Nubae> I whole heartedly agree, but sysadmins need documentation... ltsp doesn't just work, we all know that
03:01	<cyberorg> Nubae, you will be surprised :)
03:01	<Nubae> with kiwi-ltsp?
03:02	cause I have a school with 200 thin clients running, and it doesn't just work, there are problems everyday
03:02	<cyberorg> my first implementation was ltsp 4.2 on fedora long time back
03:02	as a users we designed kiwi-ltsp to take care of almost everything to get it working in seconds
03:03	video demonstrates that :)
03:03	<Nubae> user problems, process problems, printer problems, application problems... they all exist in all distros I've checked so far
03:04	<cyberorg> Nubae, ah that is nothing we can do :)
03:06	<Nubae> we can write documentation to help... that's all I can imagine anyone can do, because its regular unix issues normally, but a little different cause its ltsp
03:07	<cilkay> ltsp is good if you have low-resource clients but most of the machines at our school have huge amounts of resources thanks to RAM upgrades within the last couple of weeks.
03:07	<cyberorg> cilkay, they will work quite well at TC too
03:07	(as
03:07	<cilkay> We have a few Core2 Duo machines with 4G of RAM that are more powerful than the server so using those as thin clients seems like a waste.
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03:08	<cilkay> Why not just do remote deployments and be done with it?
03:08	All these machines have plenty of disk. We don't store local files really.
03:08	<lejo> what was that site for linux TC again?
03:09	<cilkay> With the right solution, we could reimage as often as we wanted.
03:09	<Nubae> because controlling all of it from a server (application installation, user installation, etc.) is much easier
03:09	cilkay: u describe a low fat client situation....
03:10	u can use either multiple technologies like drbl and ltsp and have a headache on your hands
03:10	or just use ltsp
03:10	<cilkay> We would be controlling from a server. We'd only deploy from the server via PXE and use LDAP/Kerberos or Active Directory for auth.
03:11	<Nubae> and figure out the local apps/fat client part
03:13	cilkay: maybe if all your machines are going to be fattish tryout drbl... that was easy to install and worked well
03:13	each computer is then independent though
03:14	<cyberorg> cilkay, try ltsp with local app first, if things do not work as expected look for NIS/ldap solution with stuff like /home /usr mounted from the server
03:14	<cilkay> I'll try that, thanks.
03:15	That does seem like a more straightforward solution.
03:15	That way, it doesn't really matter whether I have a powerful machine or not. I'd use the same technology, more or less, for both.
03:16	The more powerful ones could be pressed into service as LTSP servers too.
03:16	<cyberorg> cilkay, you can also serve full fledged squashfs OS image over NBD or NFS if required, with /home mounted from server
03:16	<Nubae> cyberorg: working on suse installation, does that assume you already have a suse 11.0 server installed?
03:17	<cyberorg> Nubae, yes, server installed with static IP and firewall off on the dhcp interface
03:17	<cilkay> I recall reading an article about 7 years ago when I did my one and only LTSP installation about a computer lab at University of Geneva where on every reboot, they reimage the system.
03:17	They claimed that it didn't take appreciably longer to reimage Linux or Windows than it did to boot them normally.
03:18	<cyberorg> cilkay, that is not required, squashfs image is mounted unionfs rw only, so no change to that image happens
03:18	<cilkay> I couldn't find the article when I looked for it recently.
03:19	I'm off. I'll try local apps. Thanks folks.
03:19	<Nubae> cyberorg: so I should write that they install the Suse 11.0 dvd image, create static ip and make sure firewall is turned off?
03:19	<cyberorg> Nubae, firewall turned off only on the network card facing internal network
03:19	<Nubae> ok, assumes 2 network cards
03:20	<cyberorg> Nubae, even one will be fine :)
03:21	more than one is fine too, we use the first eth facing internal network to serve ltsp, so if only one is avialable we use that
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03:23	<Nubae> http://pastebin.com/d360fe552
03:23	thats what I've got so far... is that allright?
03:25	<cyberorg> http://pastebin.com/d64207020
03:26	<Nubae> thanks
03:29	if u want some nice pictures like ubuntu instllation u'll have to send them my way :-)
03:29	though personally dont think its needed
03:29	<cyberorg> Nubae, i have to do easy-ltsp screenshot tour
03:29	network config ones are here http://en.opensuse.org/LTSP/Quick_start
03:31	<Nubae> using easy-ltsp remotely with -X option with ssh, it works ok...
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03:42	<cyberorg> Nubae, yes
03:42	<Nubae> cool going to do that to take a proper look at kiwi-ltsp then
03:42	<cyberorg> you need good internet connection if you do not have DVD media handy
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03:47	<Nubae> cyberorg: do u think how ltsp works should come before or after explaining basics of networking, etc
03:47	?
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03:48	<Nubae> Basic Concepts: Networks and Networking first, then how ltsp works?
03:48	<cyberorg> after networking
03:48	<Nubae> yeah thought so too
03:49	<cyberorg> this has some explanation http://en.opensuse.org/How_Does_KIWI-LTSP_work including a link to more detailed edubuntu docs
03:51	<Nubae> im using the edubuntu docs as generic parts... so u want a seperate part on how kiwi-ltsp works, apart from the generic how ltsp works?
03:51	perhaps as an appendix
03:52	<cyberorg> Nubae, no generic is good enough
03:53	only thing different is imaging, usb and cd boot
03:53	<Nubae> we can always put a link to that page
03:54	ie... if you are using Suse, check out: http://link
03:54	<cyberorg> Nubae, that is ok too
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04:04	<Nubae> hardware requirements are the same across all distros right?
04:06	<johnny> altlinux can be much less
04:06	but they are not quite fully ltsp5
04:06	<cyberorg> Nubae, yes almost, altlinux works even on 16M clients, ubuntu goes down to 32 but not very functional, minimum recommended is 128, 256 would be nice
04:07	<Nubae> yeah someone was on here yesterday complaining that ubuntu took long to load...
04:07	I asked abotu his clients
04:07	he said he had mostly 486s but the biggest were pentium with 16mb
04:07	lol
04:08	<cyberorg> unfortunately opensuse's kernel requires minimum i586, boots on as low as 64M but bare minimum of 128 is required to do any work
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04:11	<johnny> without localapps ?
04:16	<cyberorg> johnny, yeah
04:17	<lejo> I always recommend 256m to my customers these days
04:17	to get a somewhat decent user experience
04:17	<Nubae> 128 is ok on ubuntu
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04:18	<lejo> yeah on suse it's also ok but to my experience 256m looks more snappy
04:19	it's probably between the ears ;)
04:19	<johnny> i need more ram :(
04:20	<Nubae> is there any situation u guys can think of where one would need a local hard drive?
04:21	local swap maybe?
04:21	<johnny> local swap
04:21	<Nubae> how advantageous is it?
04:21	<johnny> not sure
04:21	don't use it
04:21	<Nubae> well, not going into docos then :-)
04:21	min requirements all round are 128mb ram, 500mhz processor
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04:24	<Nubae> maybe minimum video display driver ram?#
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04:25	<lejo> I had TC where the video memory was shared. So if you only have 128m it gets really crappy
04:27	<Nubae> wow... edubuntu docs mention 2MB minimum
04:27	is that wrong?
04:27	also, does yaboot even exist anymore?
04:29	<johnny> it must
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05:15	<asac> warren: hi
05:15	warren: nspluginwrapper ;)
05:16	warren: do you know if there is any svn or something?
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06:28	<vlt> Hello. Can I run `ltsp-update-image` while clients are using the old image via nbd as root fs or do I have to wait for all clients to shutdown?
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06:33	<ogra> vlt, for running clients it wont change, the server will go on to serve the image from ram, newly connecting clients will get the new image
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06:48	<vlt> ogra: Ok, thank you. (That's exactly what I thought/hoped.)
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07:08	<Nubae> does anyone know if the smbldap installer still works post gutsy?
07:09	also, the thin client process as explained in the edubuntu handbook, how different is this for other distros?
07:11	for suse fedora, are the default images still kept at /opt/ltsp?
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07:12	<cyberorg> Nubae, suse keeps it in /srv/kiwi-ltsp/ltsp-suse-11.0.i686-0.0.1 (squashfs for nbd) and /srv/kiwi-ltsp-nfs for nfsroot
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07:13	<cyberorg> gentoo, fedora, debian and ubuntu are in same place
07:15	<Nubae> suse had to be different didn't it ;-)
07:18	cyberorg: so the same applies though right, I can have multiple chroots all living under /srv/kiwi-ltsp/?
07:19	<cyberorg> yes the default is called /ltsp-suse-11.0.i686-0.0.1 for 11.0 image, then 11.1 will be called ltsp-suse-11.1.i686-0.0.1 , the last part is version
07:20	<Nubae> so amd64 for example would be what?
07:24	thanks for helping on this cyberorg... can u tell me if the thin client boot process as mentioned in edubuntu handbook is different in suse/fedora?
07:25	<cyberorg> ltsp-suse-11.0.x86_64-0.0.1, but we have disabled 64bit by default, 32bit chroot is built even on 64bit host
07:25	<Nubae> http://doc.ubuntu.com/edubuntu/edubuntu/handbook/C/ltsp-theory.html
07:25	ok
07:25	take a look at that link, where it says the boot process of the thin client
07:25	<cyberorg> it is almost the same, we have linked that page from "how kiwi ltsp works" wiki page
07:25	it is same once the client boots up
07:26	<Nubae> ok cool (for documentation... I've mentioned the difference in chroot location, is there anything else?
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07:26	<cyberorg> i have never used Etherboot, so dont know how it works
07:27	PXE, cdrom and usb is supported
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07:27	<cyberorg> i have not seen anyone using floppy drive for almost 10 years
07:27	<Nubae> I was about to leave that entire part out...
07:28	but then thought, for the sake of completeness
07:28	I did add that it would be far easier to just get a pxe based network card as that is guaranteed to work on all distros and costs under 10$ these days
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07:30	<Nubae> fo u know if lts.conf support is the same across distros?
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07:37	<ogra> its identical under fedora, debian, gentoo and ubuntu ... you can either use /etc/lts.conf or the tftproot ... no idea about kiwi
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07:37	<cyberorg> Nubae, yes same
07:37	ogra, it is same
07:37	<ogra> ok
07:38	<Nubae> wow, this is turning out to be easier than I thought
07:38	<cyberorg> ogra, location is different though, /srv/tftpboot/KIWI/lts.conf, easy-ltsp is configured to find it in its right place for both fedora and suse
07:40	<Nubae> the exact location is never mentioned in the docs... just refers to lts.conf
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07:41	<ogra> well, in ubuntu, debian and fedora i'm sure about /var/lib/tftpboot/ltsp/$ARCH ... i'm not sure about gentoo and suse goes its own way abusing /srv apparently
07:42	<Nubae> tis a bit strange they decided to be so different ;-)
07:44	<ogra> especially sinc /srv has a similar meaning as /usr/local has ... shouldnt be used unless the admin actively pust something into it (i.e. not silently by scripts)
07:44	*puts
07:44	but up to them :)
07:49	<Nubae> no more mention of ubuntu educational...
07:49	<ogra> ??
07:49	<Nubae> you've been assigned to mobile :-)
07:49	in motu
07:49	<ogra> heh, yeah
07:49	i still care for edubuntu as far as it goes though
07:49	<Nubae> doesnt it seem a bit weird that there is a edubuntu page still floating around?
07:49	<ogra> but thats all in main
07:49	so doesnt affect motu anyway
07:50	<Nubae> ok, but really, it no longer exists, and there are no links to the quick install from the edubuntu.org page
07:50	<ogra> and i dont know what our marketing plans to make the trasition edubuntu->ubuntu educational edition better known yet
07:50	sure it exists
07:50	<Nubae> seems confusing as hell
07:50	<ogra> what makes you think it doesnt
07:50	<Nubae> the link? cause I checked
07:51	<ogra> https://wiki.edubuntu.org/HardyClassroomServer is there
07:51	<Nubae> http://www.edubuntu.org/GettingStarted
07:51	that is wrong... it should be linked to quickinstall
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07:52	<Nubae> that doesnt work at all anymore, its ancient
07:52	<ogra> where did you get that link from ?
07:52	<Nubae> and most newcomers would click there
07:52	<ogra> its not linked form anywhere
07:52	<Nubae> http://edubuntu.org/Documentation
07:52	<ogra> (or shouldnt be)
07:52	<Nubae> coming from the main edubuntu.org page
07:53	<ogra> "Getting Started with Edubuntu 6.06.1"
07:53	sure thats fully valid if you use dapper :)
07:53	<Nubae> its all messed up... I was looking for the link to quickinstall this morning...
07:53	yeah except on the very same page it mentiones 8.04
07:53	is dapper even supported anymore?
07:54	<ogra> sure
07:54	<Nubae> for how many more days =)
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07:54	<ogra> one year iirc
07:54	july 2009
07:55	<Nubae> I found quickinstall by going to ltsp.org...
07:55	<ogra> http://edubuntu.org/Download ... scroll to "Install Edubuntu Classroom Server (thin client)"
07:56	that links to https://wiki.edubuntu.org/HardyClassroomServer
07:56	<Nubae> welp... I was looking at documentation, what can I say
07:57	maybe I'm just strange that way, but others are for sure doing the same, thats why there's so many questions on here about how to install the thing...
07:59	but perhaps its the choice of marketing terms that is confusing people... Ubuntu educational versus edubuntu
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08:03	<ogra> Nubae, file a bug :) i think there is an edubuntu-website product
08:03	or something similar
08:04	<Q-FUNK> warren:
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08:06	<Nubae> can someone point me to Fedora installation of ltsp instructions?
08:07	<cyberorg> ogra, suse has been traditionally using /srv for everything, http, ftp, tftp etc
08:09	<ogra> cyberorg, i'd personally consider that evil but then i'D not install anything into /usr7local either from a package or a script i ship in a package ... for suse users that might be normal though :) i dont complain ...
08:09	<cyberorg> ogra, yeah we expect services to put their stuff in /srv :)
08:10	<ogra> its like the packaging :)
08:10	<cyberorg> ogra, we can easily put symlinks to keep it same as all the distros if required
08:10	<ogra> debian packages only live from their policy ... thats why i like them ... the tech differences between rpm and deb packaging are not that big
08:12	(thats why i asked oyu to not ship a debian dir in easy ltsp for example ... it would never be acceptable/packageable as distro package that way)
08:12	<cyberorg> ogra, btw your feedback about the plugins from server thing, shows the difference between a developer's approach(yours) and a script kiddie(me)
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08:13	<ogra> why do you call yourself a script kiddie ... you are clearly a developer :)
08:13	<cyberorg> ogra, i can just copy paste
08:13	<Nubae> script kiddies are hacker wannabees
08:13	<ogra> if someone knows how to use the patch command i consider him/her a dev :)
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08:13	<jammcq> g'morning friends
08:13	<ogra> morning jammcq
08:14	<cyberorg> ogra, packager has to know a bit of patching ;)
08:14	hi jammcq :)
08:14	<ogra> right, but script kiddies dont know about that :)
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08:14	<cyberorg> alright i promote myself one step above that then
08:15	<Blinny> !seen Gadi
08:15	<ltspbot> Blinny: Gadi was last seen in #ltsp 1 week, 6 days, 15 hours, 31 minutes, and 39 seconds ago: <Gadi> which means the ldm parent process does not proceed to call the rc.d K scripts
08:15	<Nubae> also, I guess script kiddies could be considered evil
08:15	cyberorg: is clearly not evil
08:15	:-)
08:15	<ogra> i consider them potential developers :)
08:15	<cyberorg> ogra, how does ubuntu find browser plugins? on suse putting plugins in that folder makes them available for all browser
08:15	<ogra> cyberorg, sme for ubuntu/debian ... the path is just different
08:15	*same
08:15	<Nubae> the ones that download scripts to try and penetrate remote systems?
08:16	<cyberorg> so how do we find paths, use if $VENDOR ?
08:16	<ogra> the script needs to take the different paths used by the different distros into account
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08:16	<cyberorg> or just create a variable BROWSER_PLUGIN_PATH in lts.conf?
08:16	<ogra> nah
08:16	$VERNDOR sounds good
08:17	and a case statement (case is faster than if)
08:17	<cyberorg> i know how to use case :)
08:17	<ogra> i like the general idea btw :)
08:18	i'm not sure how that influences user installed plugins though i.e. stuff in ~/.mozilla/firefox/$profile/plugins
08:18	<cyberorg> i'll try and work out detection of archs for server as well as client, and case for all distro plugin paths
08:18	<ogra> that should be tested
08:19	<cyberorg> .mozilla is always preferred
08:19	<ogra> right, but make sure we dont break it by applying a remote mounted plugin path ... you never know if firefox has a bug ;)
08:19	so testing it once is always good
08:20	<cyberorg> ok, will test that
08:23	<Nubae> so under customizing thin client behaviour... we could add a link to easy-ltsp right?
08:23	* ogra would like to se proper distro packages first
08:24	<ogra> *see
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08:25	<cyberorg> ogra, please take a look at test packages: https://build.opensuse.org/package/show?package=Easy-LTSP&project=home%3Ajapa83
08:25	<prpplague> jammcq: hey buf
08:25	bud
08:25	jammcq: you alive today?
08:26	<ogra> cyberorg, please dont
08:26	cyberorg, a proper tar.gz without debian dir and contacting #ubuntu-motu is the right way
08:27	<cyberorg> ok
08:28	<Nubae> ogra: do think easy ltsp will be included in intrepid?
08:29	<ogra> Nubae, feature freeze is over but exceptions are possible ... firststep would be to contact MOTU, file a "please package ... " bug and probably upload a version to http://revu.ubuntuwire.com
08:30	please dont link to third party packages from official documentation ... mention that the tool exists though
08:31	<Nubae> yeah I figured that would be a no no
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08:32	<cyberorg> ogra, who should jan contact in #ubuntu-motu for this?
08:32	<loca\|host> i've installed the kiosk plugin on an Ubuntu 8.04 ltsp server and now have to do some firefox adjustments like: Starting in fullscreen mode and modify the startpage, anyone did it ?
08:33	<ogra> cyberorg, anyone will be fine there ... https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment/NewPackages has a short description about the process for a new package
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08:35	<cyberorg> ok, sent mail to jan
08:37	<ogra> cyberorg, note that many of the MOTU devs are also taking care to get their packages into debian
08:37	<Nubae> under customising thin client behaviour there area whole bunch of options on how to address individual machine, shouldn't we just uncomplicate that and do just [mac address] and/or [default]?
08:37	<ogra> so you can easily get both in one go
08:38	loca\|host, kiosk "plugin" ?
08:38	loca\|host, there is only a --kiosk mode for ltsp-build-client
08:38	and that does everyhing for you by default
08:40	<Nubae> so... just one identifier instead of multiple options, whacha think?
08:40	<ogra> Nubae, btw are you doing your changes to the ltsp-documentation branch ?
08:40	<loca\|host> ogra, ltsp-build-client --kiosk
08:41	i did that
08:41	<Nubae> Im doing everything local right now... cause I couldnt figure out where to do stuff online yet...
08:41	<ogra> Nubae, https://code.launchpad.net/~ltsp-docwriters/ltsp/ltsp-docs-trunk
08:41	<Nubae> launchpad seems a bit of a mess
08:41	<ogra> it has instructions how to check out
08:41	<loca\|host> ogra, as i read here : https://wiki.edubuntu.org/HowtoWriteLTSP5Plugins , that's called a plugin :)
08:41	<Nubae> ko cool
08:41	<ogra> i can make you a committer if you like so you can directly push your changes (though please coordinate with btil)
08:42	loca\|host, i know, i wrote it :)
08:42	loca\|host, but that predates the proper inclusion of the plugin as a default option ... whats not working with that ?
08:43	<Nubae> yeah I guess... I've almost rewritten all of the documention to be non edubuntu specific and as recent as possible
08:43	but ltsp5 documentation seems like the right place to put it
08:43	as well as ltsp.org
08:43	<ogra> we'll likely start building nd ltsp-docs package from that branch in the future
08:44	<loca\|host> ogra, i need to do some firefox adjustments like: Starting in fullscreen mode and modify the startpage
08:44	<ogra> loca\|host, is it not starting in fullscreen ? the devilspie setup should enforce that
08:45	if you didnt tweak the plugin but just used --kiosk thats clearly a bug
08:45	<loca\|host> i havent tweak it, how can i do it ?
08:45	<ogra> what ubuntu release is that ? hardy ?
08:45	(8.04)
08:46	<Nubae> so... from what I can see, nothing has been done to documentation since gutsy... so It was ok to kinda rip apart and redo right?
08:46	I'd like to able to push with out having to change anything
08:46	<ogra> you cant push without having done changes in a VCS
08:47	<loca\|host> ogra, yes 8.04
08:47	<ogra> just bzr pull or branch the tree
08:47	<loca\|host> and in addition to that, i have a strange behaviour, i have created a new file in /opt/ltsp/i386/usr/share/firefox/browserconfig.properties and then did a ltsp-update-image, after that, my thin pxe client wont load, after successfull negociation at boot it tells me Error: Server closed connection and then fails mounting its filesystems
08:47	<Nubae> ok ill branch
08:47	<ogra> loca\|host, hmm, then your FF should start in fullscreen by default
08:47	<Nubae> can u add me, Dvanassche
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08:48	<ogra> Nubae, done
08:49	<Nubae> thanks
08:49	<ogra> Nubae, https://code.launchpad.net/~ltsp-docwriters/ltsp/ltsp-docs-trunk should have changed for you now and tell your how to push
08:49	*you
08:50	loca\|host, did fullscreen work before you did your change ?
08:50	<loca\|host> ogra, no
08:50	ogra, virgin install doesnt go fullscreen
08:52	<Nubae> hmmm... u want it in xml format?
08:52	<ogra> loca\|host, can you file a bug https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ltsp/+filebug so i can fix that for 8.04.2 ?
08:52	Nubae, its all in docbook atm, yes, that way we can include it in the gnome and kde help systems and as well generate PDFs easily for ltsp.org
08:52	<loca\|host> ogra, i'll do it, jsut a matter of time
08:53	<Nubae> ok, I'll look at an easy way to export from open office :-)
08:53	<ogra> that makes it easy to have ltsp-docs in all distros with the same content
08:54	<Nubae> so is it ok, to simplify some things.... like the identifiers... just [default] and [mac address]
08:54	think will make life easier
08:55	unless there is some reason to have multiple formats that I haven't thought about
08:56	<loca\|host> ogra, wich file may i use to configure the start page of firefox ?
08:57	<ogra> loca\|host, i'd add the proper value from about:config to /etc/firefox-3.0/pref/firefox.js
08:57	(in the chroot)
08:58	Nubae, would be fine with me
08:59	<loca\|host> ogra, why chroot ? can i do it directly in /opt/ltsp/i386/etc/....
08:59	<ogra> yes
08:59	* ogra points out that /opt/ltsp/i386 is the chroot :)
09:00	<ogra> beyond there being a chroot command the directory one changes into with this command is called the chroot :)
09:00	<loca\|host> i need to update the image after ?
09:00	<ogra> yes
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09:03	<sbalneav> Morning all
09:03	<ogra> !s
09:03	<ltspbot> ogra: "s" is Scotty!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
09:04	<sbalneav> Morning ogra!
09:04	hrmph. Password expiry's broken for me in hardy. Think I'll just grab the latest ldm, and install it in my chroot.
09:06	<ogra> sbalneav, meh, sorry to hear that ... i must admit i havet tested it (but it would qualify for an SRU for 8.04.2)
09:07	(if there was a patch)
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09:11	<sbalneav> OK, maybe I'll look into what's failing, and make a patch.
09:11	<ogra> that would be cool !
09:11	<Nubae> theres no ifconfig by default in fedora
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09:12	<Nubae> so people check their mac addresses with dmesg\|grep eth or look in /etc/sysconfig/network-scripts/ifcfg-eth0?
09:13	<ogra> no idea, ask warren
09:14	<Nubae> well checking less /etc/sysconfig/network-scripts/ifcfg-eth0 works
09:14	guess they should work with the tools they have upon startup and not make them install extras
09:15	<ogra> its a bit tricky since you want that info for the client
09:15	<Nubae> oh wait... right...
09:16	theres no subsystem installed yet, doh
09:16	<sbalneav> Easy way to tell is to boot the workstation, look at the IP address down in the corner...
09:17	<Q-FUNK> !s
09:17	<ltspbot> Q-FUNK: "s" is Scotty!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
09:17	<sbalneav> then do an "arp -an" on the server.
09:18	<Nubae> arp not installed by default on fedora either
09:18	<ogra> silly
09:18	<Nubae> indeed
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09:22	<sbalneav> Well, then maybe check the /var/lib/dhcp3/dhcpd.leases file
09:22	<warren> Nubae: we do have ifconfig by default
09:22	<Nubae> not my virtual box image of fedora 9 doesnt
09:23	<sbalneav> find the ip address of the terminal, and the mac's in the same stanza
09:23	<warren> you mean the /opt/ltsp/i386?
09:24	<Nubae> no, when checking for mac address on client for lts.conf
09:24	<warren> I don't understand what you mean
09:24	and yes, ifconfig is in by default on both server and client
09:26	* ogra would go with the arp approach ... that will give you the actual MAC
09:26	<Nubae> well, what can I say... my virtualbox image of a plain fedora 9 doesnt seem to have installed by default... not ltsp admittedly
09:26	<ogra> but if fedora doesnt have arp thats a blocker indeed
09:26	<jammcq> Scotty !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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09:29	<Nubae> warren: does ltsp fedora have arp as default?
09:29	<warren> what does this mean?
09:29	<ogra> /usr/sbin/arp
09:29	<warren> the arp command?
09:31	<Nubae> yeah
09:31	<warren> /sbin/arp is by default
09:31	from the package net-tools
09:31	<Nubae> ok....
09:31	<ogra> right, here as well
09:31	* Nubae obviously cannot trust his virtualbox F9 image
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09:41	<loca\|host> ogra, i've updated my /etc/firefox-3.0/pref/firefox.js then updated my image, my pxe client got the habitual Error: Server closed connection
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09:49	<Blinny> Is the linux-headers package needed in the chroot on Ubuntu 8.04?
09:49	<ogra> no
09:49	its not needed anywhere
09:50	unless you compile drivers
09:50	<Blinny> Thanks ogra
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09:52	<Skarmeth> warren, just to check, I installed a new kernel on a F9 LTSP filesystem, run ltsp-update-kernels on the server and it generated a wrong symlink (because yum upgrade don't updated the symlink at client filesystem?) and don't set up correct permissions on initrd-* files....
09:52	<Blinny> linux-image-generic is a metapackage, correct? So that I could remove it in order to downgrade a kernel?
09:53	<Skarmeth> it created the files as 0600 (root,root) and this way, tftpd can't read this files when asked by the PXE client.
09:53	<ogra> Blinny, right
09:53	<Blinny> Thanks ogra
09:54	<warren> Skarmeth: what version of ltsp-client is in the chroot?
09:55	<Skarmeth> I updated it today
09:55	<warren> Skarmeth: newest ltsp-client will setup everything properly in the chroot
09:55	Skarmeth: and a new kernel must be installed after ltsp-client
09:55	<Blinny> ltsp-update-kernels doesn't remove the files in /var/lib/tftpboot/ltsp/i386, it just points to new kernel locations
09:55	<Skarmeth> 5.1.15-1.fc9
09:55	<Q-FUNK> warren: was the bug you see on geode 2.10.1 under 1.4.99 like a square blotch around the mouse pointe,r when you initially launch X?
09:56	<Blinny> bbl - testing downgrade
09:56	<Skarmeth> Blinny, as yum upgrade remove old kernels, it should do the same
09:56	<Blinny> Skarmeth: Thanks - using ubuntu
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09:57	<ogra> Skarmeth, he is using the released stable version, not the devlopment stuff :)
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10:05	<warren> Skarmeth: that isn't the latest
10:06	Skarmeth: http://togami.com/~k12linux-temporary/fedora/9/ grab from here for now
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10:13	<cilkay> Hi. I was discussing the pros and cons of deploying ltsp with Nubae and cyberorg in an environment where I have powerful desktop machines, often with 2G of RAM or more. We were discussing local app support. One thing that I don't understand is that if I am going to run local apps, how do they get installed in the first place?
10:14	<cyberorg> cilkay, you install them in your client chroot image
10:14	<Q-FUNK> warren: ?
10:14	<warren> Q-FUNK: I recall seeing the square blotch around the pointer back in F8 but I haven't see it in a while
10:15	<cilkay> cyberorg: If they're installed on the client chroot image, how is it that they're local apps? They're still on the server.
10:16	I have plenty of disk available on the clients, by the way.
10:16	<cyberorg> cilkay, they use CPU/RAM resources available on the client, just disk is not used
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10:18	<cilkay> I'm not seeing the difference between installing "local" apps in the chroot environment and installing apps any other way. I suspect there isn't any difference in how they're installed. I suspect there is a difference in how they're invoked.
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10:21	<cyberorg> cilkay, initial idea here https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ltsp-localapps
10:22	<cilkay> looking
10:23	<cyberorg> launcher part is relevant
10:24	<cilkay> As I suspected, "xrexecd foo" is the "secret sauce".
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10:25	<ogra> cilkay, local meaning they are executed locally on the client vs being executed on the server and only displaying on the client
10:26	<cilkay> not meaning they're installed locally
10:26	on the client, that is
10:26	<ogra> no matter where they are installed
10:26	thats what localapps defines
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10:28	<ogra> you can mount /usr from a local disk .... afaik thats what mythbuntu offers as option for their diskless mediaserver/client solution
10:28	<laga> no, we use aufs to merge the squashfs with an nfs share
10:29	<ogra> ah, well, but oyu could easily use your configure_fstab() override patch to have an fstab that uses a local HD
10:29	<laga> yeah
10:30	<ogra> and mount /usr with that
10:30	<laga> i've seen reports that the override doesnt work, i need to investigate
10:30	<ogra> which is all you want for application binaries
10:31	<cyberorg> ogra, if we moved all ltsp related stuff to /opt in the TC we can easily use /usr mounted from elsewhere
10:31	<laga> or use aufs ;)
10:31	<ogra> yeah
10:31	use aufs :)
10:32	<cilkay> So what stands in the way of running most, if not all, apps locally on clients with sufficient resources? At the moment, local app support seems to be limited to a few apps.
10:32	<ogra> its not
10:32	<cyberorg> laga, does it merge two things from two different places with both files available?
10:32	<ogra> there is only an infrastructuer anyway yet
10:32	but it can be used with any X app you like
10:33	<cyberorg> ogra, any app :) use xterm
10:33	<cilkay> I had the impression that Firefox ran fine but others were experimental.
10:33	<ogra> whats wrong with xterm ?
10:33	cilkay, all are experimental
10:34	that feature is far from being done
10:34	<cyberorg> ogra, use xterm to use non-X local apps
10:34	<ogra> cyberorg, ah :)
10:34	cyberorg, i thought you were saying xterm doesnt work
10:34	<cyberorg> so for controlling volume on the TC launch xterm and run alsamixer :)
10:35	<cilkay> Is this stable enough to deploy in a classroom environment where there is going to be some resistance from the teachers because we're replacing their spyware infested Windows desktops?
10:35	<ogra> cilkay, but it seesm what you want is a workstation with central user management (AD, ldap, whatever)
10:35	cilkay, i personally wouldnt deploy it in a production env yet
10:35	<loca\|host> ogra, am about to rebuilt my --kiosk client from scratch, how to put the config i want as parameters to ltsp-build-client ?
10:36	<ogra> loca\|host, --kiosk should be all you need
10:36	<cilkay> AD only is an issue if we can't get replace Windows completely.
10:36	<Nubae> cilkay: thought u wanted to make an rdp connection to windows clients
10:36	<loca\|host> because i dont succeed in modifying /opt/ltsp/i386 ,i get the Error Server closed connection each time i touch a file in /opt/ltsp/i386 :(
10:37	<cilkay> Here's the thing. We have hard dependencies on MS Office in the curriculum. Sad, but true. MS Office is the easiest app to replace of all.
10:37	<loca\|host> ogra, i need to change the startpage
10:37	<ogra> loca\|host, if you used --kiosk the chroot would be /opt/ltsp/kiosk iirc
10:37	<Nubae> well wine 1.0 or crossover 7 run even 2007 pretty perfectly
10:37	<ogra> well, for the startpage you need to change the firefox settings after you built the chroot
10:38	<cilkay> The RDP connection to Terminal Server is really just a migration strategy. I hope to wean them off Windows completely this year.
10:38	<ogra> as i mentioned above
10:38	<loca\|host> ogra, no, --kiosk get me a i386 in /opt/ltsp and my thinclient loads the kiosk successfully till i decide to modify a config file in it
10:38	<ogra> weird
10:38	<cilkay> I tried installing MS Office XP on Wine on Hardy. The installer crashed.
10:38	<ogra> loca\|host, does ls /opt/ltsp/images show a kiosk.img ?
10:39	<Nubae> huh? weird... which version of wine? Works fine for me, though uses 10 times the cpu time and ram than open office
10:39	<loca\|host> ogra, i386.img
10:39	<ogra> hmm
10:40	<loca\|host> ii ltsp-server 5.0.40~bzr20080212-0ubuntu7
10:40	ii ltsp-server-standalone 5.0.40~bzr20080212-0ubuntu7
10:41	<cilkay> Nubae: wine 1.0.0 on Hardy LTS
10:41	1.0.0-1, actually
10:41	<loca\|host> ogra, is there a logfile or something else to check to debug that Error: Server closed connection ?
10:42	<ogra> loca\|host, syslog might have info ...
10:42	<Nubae> http://appdb.winehq.org/appview.php?iVersionId=3514&iTestingId=1050
10:42	was given platinum on hardy
10:42	<ogra> but generally inetd spawns nbdrootd
10:42	<Nubae> that means it should run ultra-perfect
10:42	u must be doing something wrong...
10:43	<cilkay> Not much to do wrong. I popped in the CD and started the wizard. It eventually crashed. I can try again.
10:43	<Nubae> actually if u choose access and outlook u might have problems
10:43	<ogra> loca\|host, right, i just checked, i dropped the reanming for --kiosk, its alright with i386
10:43	*renaming
10:43	<Nubae> although access should work now too
10:43	only outlook is a bit dodgy... try installing without outlook
10:44	<cilkay> Nubae: Aha. I did have both. And we need Access because that's what they use to "teach" databases. No one uses Outlook in pedagogy at the school.
10:44	BTW, this is on Kubuntu so that's listed as "Silver". Wonder why.
10:45	<ogra> kubuntu ?
10:45	which one ?
10:45	<Nubae> that was a previous version
10:45	<cilkay> 8.04.1
10:45	<Nubae> rc2, not actual 1.0
10:45	<cilkay> Yes, I noticed.
10:45	... after I typed the above
10:45	<Nubae> Im sure the very latst version will be fine
10:45	without outllook
10:45	<ogra> cilkay, no i mean which kubuntu ? there were two versions with hardy ... one with kde4 one with 3.5
10:46	<cilkay> KDE3
10:46	<ogra> the kde4 one should definately now be used yet
10:46	ah
10:46	<cilkay> KDE4 is nice but too many issues for now
10:46	<ogra> *not
10:46	<Nubae> cilkay: I've been where you've been, and found it far better to move the teaching lessons to open office... where are u located? what country?
10:46	<cilkay> Toronto, Ontario, Canada
10:47	<Nubae> aha, we're teaching British standards... and the government has said that must be OS independent
10:47	which gives us the green light to use open office instead
10:47	what can I say.... lobby ;-)
10:47	<ogra> so teach access os independent :P
10:47	<cilkay> Nubae: I wish we could stop "teaching" Office period. The kids don't really learn anything of value the way its taught.
10:47	<Nubae> cilkay: right. Open Office is a much better teaching tool too
10:48	<cilkay> By the time they hit high school, they still have no idea how to add two numbers in Excel.
10:48	LaserJock has joined #ltsp
10:48	<cilkay> ... despite having spent two years previously "learning" MS Office.
10:49	One thing at a time. I have to first get the infrastructure to where it needs to be and then I can start concentrating on curriculum changes.
10:49	<Nubae> yeah unfortunately the 2 kinda go together
10:50	ever hear of the INGOTS?
10:50	<cilkay> no
10:50	What is it?
10:50	<Nubae> http://www.theingots.org/
10:50	<cilkay> I'm a parent volunteer at the school, btw.
10:51	Though I filled in for one of the computer studies teachers who was away on maternity leave from last November to end of June.
10:51	<Nubae> open technologies inernational grades... great open source tools and the diplomas have been accredited, at least in the UK and SA totally
10:51	<cilkay> That's a great resource. Thank you.
10:52	I'll tag it with "teaching resources" on my Magnolia account.
10:53	Q-FUNK has joined #ltsp
10:53	<Nubae> our pilot school just became accredited... as a ingot examiner too... its great
10:53	<cilkay> I took over a Grade 11 class that was supposed to be an "Intro to Programming" class. They were using VB.NET and thus far, had installed it, configured it, whatever that means, and created a "Hello world" app from September to late Nov.
10:54	I chucked it all and started them on Python using the on-line "How to Think Like a Computer
10:54	<Nubae> super!
10:54	I stuck a python lesson in my moodle install
10:54	<cilkay> Scientist" site and Gauld's excellent book "Learn to Program Using Python"
10:54	<Nubae> they loved it
10:55	<cilkay> Oh, and I installed Moodle the first week I started, though I was the only teacher to use it. I aim to change that this year.
10:55	<Nubae> right..... that's the best python resource for kids I found
10:55	tell them Open University uses it... that should give it some credibility
10:55	<cilkay> It's a great programming resource, period. Python is just so approachable.
10:56	I had them install Python on their Windows boxes and then got frustrated by the lack of proper tools in Windows.
10:57	I wanted to install ipython and had to install some dependencies, which reminded me how bad Windows is at dependency management.
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10:57	* ogra vanishes
10:58	<cilkay> Before the following class, I installed Mandriva and created a dual-boot system. After that, the class used Mandriva for the course and had no complaints or problems.
11:01	This fall, the incoming Grade 11 is back to VB.NET because the regular teacher is back.
11:04	Nubae: What do you think of using Google Apps instead of Moodle? GA might be an easier sell to teachers since we're going to be using it for staff anyway.
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11:11	<Nubae> think they asre different products
11:11	moodle for courses... google apps instead of office yeah
11:13	<cilkay> I was thinking of GA for collaboration for courses. I might not have used Moodle effectively but the only thing I did with it was create assignments, have a Q&A forum for the class, have the kids attach their submissions to assignments, put feedback and grades attached to the submission. I think I could have done all that with GA too.
11:14	<Nubae> dunno... think moodle excels at that... been working with both for a while, I dont see any similarities
11:15	prison break is back! yes
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11:18	<cyberorg> johnny, where is gentoo's browser plugin folder?
11:18	anyone know where alt and fedora keeps them?
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11:20	<Blinny> Any reason why my PS2 mice would suddenly stop working?
11:20	_all_ my PS2 mice?
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11:36	<Blinny> Apparently has to do with nbi.img and initrd.img pointing to different versions .../tftpboot/ltsp/i386
11:36	Odd.
11:38	If ltsp-update-kernels just copies files in the chroot's /boot into /var/lib/.../{ARCH} then what makes those vmlinuz and initrd.img symbolic links?
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11:39	<ogra> Blinny, downgrading isnt actually supported ... ltsp-update-kernels will always point to the latest kernel ...
11:39	that might be solved through the work warren is currently doing
11:40	<warren> in fedora's case ltsp-update-kernels will do whatever the latest kernel installed was, not latest
11:40	<ogra> (i havent been able to test that on ubuntu yet though)
11:40	but that might be moot anyway since by default ubuntu will only have one kernel installed by default from intrepid on
11:41	(which i havent tested either yet in current ubuntu)
11:41	<Blinny> Yeah I know it's not supported. We're seeing some serious gvfs problems with the newest 24-19 kernel and I had to downgrade by hand. I'm just curious where those symbolic links are created.
11:43	PS2s started working again when I manually linked the initrd.img and vmlinuz files to the -18 versions.
11:45	<warren> playstation 2?
11:45	=)
11:45	<Blinny> heh
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11:47	<Blinny> Oh well. BBL.
11:50	<cyberorg> The_Code, hi :)
11:50	<The_Code> hi cyberorg
11:51	<cyberorg> got my mail? we might just get easy-ltsp included in next ubuntu release, find someone to package it :)
11:51	The_Code, and saw the video?
11:52	<The_Code> i saw the mail
11:52	didn't see the video yet
11:52	just finished my second work day
11:52	<cyberorg> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NCDfnImh67E
11:53	cool, how did it go?
11:53	<The_Code> quite good, nice people
11:53	interesting field to work on
11:53	<cyberorg> of course :)
11:54	<The_Code> only problem is the redhat linux on my workstation ;)
11:55	<cyberorg> that would be a big problem indeed
11:55	<The_Code> i think i can find a suse one somewhere
11:56	i will make a new commit today or tomorrow with some fixes
11:57	<cyberorg> ok, i fixed the new artwork thing
11:57	<The_Code> good
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11:57	<The_Code> i think wie should move to #opensuse-edu for the meeting
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12:35	<_UsUrPeR_> has anyone had luck installing the via chrome drivers? Running vinstall gives a lot of errors
12:36	<cilkay> cyberorg: I'm getting a 403 on http://dev.beryl-project.org/~cyberorg/
12:36	<warren> _UsUrPeR_: it is really rough, it seems that Harald is seeing if an existing project will merge it
12:36	_UsUrPeR_: like unichrome or something
12:36	<cyberorg> cilkay, where did you get that, its dead for long time :)
12:37	<warren> _UsUrPeR_: I would really wait
12:37	<cilkay> I was looking at it last night.
12:37	<Blinny> ogra: ping
12:37	<cilkay> cyberorg: I got to it from the openSuse LTSP pages.
12:37	And there was stuff there about LTSP, which I wanted to read today.
12:40	<cyberorg> cilkay, link?
12:41	<_UsUrPeR_> warren: thanks
12:41	<cyberorg> cilkay, this is the proper one http://dev.compiz-fusion.org/~cyberorg/
12:41	<cilkay> Aha, thanks.
12:42	That's the site. Wonder why the other one was in my browser history.
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12:45	<cyberorg> cilkay, give me the link from where you got the old blog, i'll change there
12:46	<cilkay> I'm sorry, I don't know it right now. If I find it, I'll point it out.
12:47	<cyberorg> ok :)
12:47	<cilkay> Actually, there is a way to query backlinks to a site on Google.
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13:09	<johnny> cyberorg, usually you can guess it whatever upstream uses
13:09	but for any binaries, we tend to use /opt
13:09	ie: not open source
13:09	or free software
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13:11	<cyberorg> johnny, browser plugin folder is not ltsp upstream, all distros have their own place :)
13:11	<johnny> looks like in this case we have flash in /opt/netscape/plugins symlinked to /usr/lib/netscape/
13:12	err
13:12	/usr/lib/nbrowser/plugins
13:13	<cyberorg> johnny, see the attached script on the ML
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13:18	<johnny> warren, you about?
13:19	Gad1 has joined #ltsp
13:19	<warren> trying to focus on something very important
13:19	i'll be back later.
13:19	e-mail the list
13:19	warren has left #ltsp
13:20	<johnny> well go away then :)
13:20	hehe
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13:20	<johnny> ogra, how about you?
13:20	and no vagrant..
13:21	c'mon.. gimme some lovin
13:21	cyberorg, you already know about my problem :)
13:21	<cyberorg> johnny, the tftp thing?
13:22	Gad1 has joined #ltsp
13:22	<johnny> i think only warren can help me with that
13:22	no. the ESPEAKER thing
13:22	or the pulse one
13:22	<cyberorg> ah local sound
13:22	Gad1 has quit IRC
13:23	<johnny> hmm.. is there a reason why the sound and localdev configure sections happen AFTER the screen scripts?
13:23	Gad1 has joined #ltsp
13:23	<Blinny> Hey cool it's Gad1
13:24	<cyberorg> johnny, see the order in your init script, after discussions with you i have slimmed down our init script and now use upstream's init-common one
13:24	<johnny> maybe
13:25	the order in mine is the same as upstream
13:25	relatively..
13:25	quique has joined #ltsp
13:25	<johnny> it's 95% the same
13:25	just slimmed down for gentoo mostly, dropping stuff we dont support
13:25	or removing excess code for stuff that gentoo already does
13:26	<quique> hello
13:26	<cyberorg> johnny, this is the order i have http://pastebin.com/d43dfcac
13:26	<jammcq> hey, Gadi is back
13:26	<johnny> what i can't see.. is how warren is writing on top of a write only nfs share?
13:26	err read only
13:26	<cyberorg> most of those come from /usr/share/ltsp/ltsp-init-common
13:26	<quique> i was wondering if someone would be open to helping me
13:26	<Gad1> grr
13:27	hi all
13:27	<johnny> quique, maybe if you ask your question
13:27	<Gad1> ltns
13:27	<jammcq> Gad1: nice vacation?
13:27	<Gad1> awesome
13:27	<cyberorg> johnny, we use ro nfsroot + aufs to do that magic
13:27	<johnny> jammcq, looks like i can probably make it ..
13:27	cyberorg, we're using bind mounts
13:27	still
13:27	<jammcq> johnny: ah, fantastic
13:27	<cyberorg> johnny, vagrant uses bind mounts
13:27	<Gad1> and I didn't even need to resort to my EEEPC+phone-as-modem
13:27	:)
13:28	<johnny> jammcq, especially since my code is all merged..and generally working
13:28	<Gad1> of course, now some Brazillian guy has my nick
13:28	grr....
13:28	<johnny> trying to make sound and localdev
13:28	<jammcq> oh?
13:28	how'd that happen?
13:28	<johnny> Gad1, did you reg that nick?
13:28	<Gad1> yup
13:28	<johnny> you can ghost it
13:28	<quique> i'm getting this error on the client side (pxe):PXE-E32: TFTP open timeout
13:28	<johnny> some irc clients might even be able to auto ghost..
13:29	<Gad1> well, I show up here as Gad1, right?
13:29	<johnny> yes
13:29	<jammcq> yes
13:29	<quique> i tried using a tftp client to get the image
13:29	<Gad1> I tried ghosting, recovering, releasing
13:29	Gad1 is now known as Gadi
13:29	<Gadi> ah
13:29	<johnny> if you ghost.. you have a few seconds before they get kicked
13:29	<Gadi> there we go
13:29	<jammcq> ah, much better
13:29	<Gadi> :)
13:29	<johnny> and then a few seconds before they get it back
13:29	<jammcq> hey, Gadi is here :)
13:29	<johnny> or rather.. can get it back
13:29	<Gadi> p-i-t-a
13:29	<quique> I can connect but not sure where the image should be
13:29	I'm using hardy
13:29	<johnny> quique, your distro puts it where it should go
13:29	<Gadi> I thought a password protected my nick
13:30	guess not
13:30	<johnny> yes.. it puts it in the right place
13:30	doesn't matter with irc gadi
13:30	<jammcq> quique: an 'open timeout' is not because it can't find the file
13:30	<johnny> anybody can take it.. until you ghost
13:30	<jammcq> it actually isn't connecting
13:30	GodFather has quit IRC
13:30	<quique> ok what does it mean?
13:30	<johnny> Gadi, nickserv actually has the feature for autokill, but it is disabled
13:30	<Gadi> honestly... isn't there only room for one Gadi in the world?
13:30	<jammcq> umm, could be you don't have tftp listening on the server
13:31	<quique> i can connect with a tftp client
13:31	<Gadi> been seeing some good stuff on -developer
13:31	<johnny> quique, i think it might be started by /etc/inetd.conf on ubuntu
13:31	<jammcq> quique: on the same machine or on a different machine?
13:31	<quique> dif machine
13:31	<jammcq> hmm
13:31	<quique> i connected but can't download the file
13:32	but the entry for tftp in inetd.conf is not there
13:32	<johnny> there's ltsp-server and ltsp-server-standalone on ubuntu
13:32	<quique> but doesn't ltsp use ssh
13:32	<johnny> standalone gives you all the server components
13:32	<jammcq> it uses alot of things, including SSH and TFTP
13:33	<quique> i uninstalled standalone and installed reg server
13:33	<Gadi> quique: what kind of switch?
13:33	<johnny> well you should put tftp on the same server
13:33	<quique> cause i didn't what another dhcp server running
13:33	<johnny> it simplieis the setup
13:33	<jammcq> if you removed standalone, then you probably removed tftpd too
13:33	<johnny> otherwise you have to copy the files elsewhere
13:33	<quique> linksys
13:33	why?
13:33	<johnny> because ltsp manages the kernel and initrd symlinks
13:33	they can't do that on another machine :)
13:33	<Gadi> managed switches sometimes drop certain packets unless told not to
13:33	you're fine
13:34	<johnny> i have it all on the same machine.. but with dnsmasq..
13:34	now if only i could figure out why i get no tftp prefix
13:34	any of you smarty pants can figure that one out?
13:34	<quique> so I just need to install tftpd?
13:34	i'll check if it's installed
13:35	<jammcq> johnny: do you have '-s /tftpboot' or some such on your tftpd line in inetd.conf ?
13:35	<johnny> yes
13:35	/var/lib/tftpboot
13:35	atm at least
13:35	and then i have ltsp/x86/ where all my stuff is
13:35	<Gadi> you need a leading slash
13:35	<johnny> i have that leading slash in the boot parameter
13:36	<Gadi> you mean filename
13:36	right?
13:36	<johnny> dhcp-boot="ltsp/x86/pxelinux.0,beep,192.168.2.4
13:36	oh wait.. i lost it oops
13:36	FuriousGeorge has left #ltsp
13:36	<johnny> how does that other clint boot?
13:36	* Gadi scratches head
13:37	<johnny> yeah.. i removed that / for testing at some point
13:37	same error
13:37	TFTP Prefix:
13:37	on both dell laptops
13:38	and TFTP Prefix: /ltsp/x86/ on my virtualbox vm
13:40	cyberorg, where is this get_files_from_tftp ? that's not in ltsp-init-common
13:40	<cyberorg> johnny, no, that is a hack for usb and CD clients on our setup
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13:41	<johnny> files?
13:41	we need a get_file_from_tftp :)
13:41	since we don't get it from the initramfs
13:41	same as fedora
13:41	<cyberorg> johnny, remember i suggested we should have arbitrary list of files that can be pushed from server long time back?
13:42	LaserJock has joined #ltsp
13:42	<johnny> cyberorg, is that necessary?
13:42	LaserJock has left #ltsp
13:42	<johnny> the only reason to have tftp, is because pxe uses it
13:42	at least most pxe implementations do
13:42	lemme use http :)
13:43	skip tftp altogether..
13:43	<cyberorg> johnny, https://forgesvn1.novell.com/viewsvn/kiwi-ltsp/trunk/suse-ltsp-client/etc/init.d/ltsp-client.init?revision=283&view=markup
13:43	<johnny> rom-o-matic roms can use http..
13:43	cyberorg, tell em to get a real cert
13:43	they c an afford it :)
13:44	cyberorg, yeah.. i would personally like to keep tftp for the boot files.. and use other technologies elsewhere
13:44	<cyberorg> http://pastebin.com/d1dfe5447 this is because CD and USB images can be used with any server
13:45	currently only lts.conf and ssh keys are sent, but it can push any other config file
13:45	<quique> tftpd-hpa has an "i A" by it when I do aptitude search tftpd
13:46	<cyberorg> johnny, this is something that is quite useful for us :)
13:46	<quique> i means it's installed it think. I don't know what "A" means
13:46	active?
13:50	my dhcp setup is:
13:50	next-server 192.168.0.15;
13:51	<johnny> so.. WTF... is there a specific dhcp option for tftp prefix? or are these pxe's broken ?
13:51	<quique> option root-path "/var/lib/tftpboot";
13:51	if substring( option vendor-class-identifier, 0, 9 ) = "PXEClient" {
13:51	filename "/ltsp/i386/pxelinux.0";
13:51	} else {
13:51	filename "/ltsp/i386/nbi.img";
13:51	}
13:51	option subnet-mask 255.255.0.0;
13:51	option broadcast-address 192.168.0.255;
13:51	option routers 192.168.0.1;
13:51	}
13:52	<johnny> so.. your tftp setup is? :)
13:52	try reinstalling tftp-hpa and look in /etc/inetd.conf
13:52	<quique> ok
13:54	<cyberorg> option root-path "/var/lib/tftpboot"; looks wrong to me
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13:55	<quique> should be option root-path "/opt/ltsp/i386";
13:55	GodFather has joined #ltsp
13:55	<quique> yeah I changed that playing around with some things
13:56	i'll change it back and try but it wasn't working
13:56	<Guaraldo> cyberorg: LTSP5 is /var/lib/tftpboot
13:56	cyberorg: but not the root path...
13:56	<johnny> that's set by the tftp server
13:57	<quique> i reinstalled tftpd-hpa
13:57	<cyberorg> Guaraldo, that would be tftproot path
13:57	root-path is where nfsroot is
13:57	<Gadi> quique: make sure you do not have xinetd installed, also
13:57	that will interfere with things
13:57	<johnny> why does ubuntu use openbsd-inetd ?
13:58	<quique> /etc/inetd.conf is: #:OTHER: Other services
13:58	9571 stream tcp nowait nobody /usr/sbin/tcpd /usr/sbin/ldminfod
13:58	9572 stream tcp nowait nobody /usr/sbin/tcpd /usr/sbin/nbdswapd
13:58	2000 stream tcp nowait nobody /usr/sbin/tcpd /usr/sbin/nbdrootd /opt/ltsp/images/i386.img
13:58	<johnny> vs xinetd ?
13:58	<quique> i never installed it
13:58	but I'll check
13:58	<Gadi> johnny: licensing, I believe
13:58	<quique> nope not installed
13:59	<johnny> the way xinetd works is much nicer tho .. with the different files.. . easy to drop stuff in.. without editing
13:59	<Gadi> tftp dgram udp wait root /usr/sbin/in.tftpd /usr/sbin/in.tftpd -s /var/lib/tftpboot
13:59	add that line to inetd.conf
13:59	<quique> so there is no line for tftp in /etc/inetd.conf but that is how it installs by default in hardy
13:59	<Gadi> and restart inetd
14:00	<quique> ok I'll try
14:01	how do I restart inetd it's not in /etc/init.d
14:01	<johnny> openbsd-inetd
14:01	it is in there
14:02	<Blinny> Hey Gadi! Do you have a link for your latest-n-greatest process-killing login script?
14:02	<quique> yep thanks I was looking for inetd
14:03	<johnny> uggh.. why can't i get this file from tftp :( :( :(
14:05	i wonder if it is a dnsmasq thing..
14:05	<quique> great thanks Gadi it works!
14:05	why doesn't it put that line in by default when you install ltsp-server
14:05	<johnny> it does if you do -standalone
14:05	<quique> i remember having to do that for a ltsp in debian
14:05	<johnny> or at least it used to
14:05	<quique> but reg server asumes that you have an external tftp server?
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14:05	<johnny> or that you manage it seperately
14:06	<Gadi> 1 sec - ph call
14:06	<quique> ok thanks johnny thanks Gadi
14:07	<johnny> hmm.. i wonder if i should just ignore this.. and change my tftp code to just get it from the root :(
14:09	<jammcq> johnny: you have the source code for tftpd, it's not terribly complex. I'd just poke around there and see what is needed to prepend the pathname
14:10	it might be an option you aren't setting or something
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14:22	<johnny> it's the dreaded " tftp: client does not accept options"
14:22	<vagrantc> i've never seen that actually stop it from downloading
14:23	<Gadi> Blinny: I have it, if you want it as a bandaid - over hackfest and since we have been working on technoques to make it largely unnecessary
14:23	<Q-FUNK> clients want all-included packages. they cannot make their mind about the options.
14:23	<jammcq> johnny: that's referring to option negotiation between the tftp server and client for things like blksize
14:23	<johnny> yeah
14:24	that's all i saw in syslog
14:24	<jammcq> it prolly only uses the default 512 byte blksize, which really isn't all that bad
14:24	<johnny> between one client and the other
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14:25	<johnny> imma try atftp
14:25	maybe that spits more useful messages
14:27	* vagrantc always liked atftpd better
14:28	* vagrantc once was accused for advocating for bloatware when advocating atftp over plain ol' tftp
14:28	<johnny> hmm.. didn't work either
14:28	but at least it says this
14:29	Sep 2 15:29:25 beep atftpd[28455]: Serving /ltsp/x86/pxelinux.0 to 192.168.2.100:2070
14:29	Sep 2 15:29:25 beep atftpd[28455]: Serving /ltsp/x86/pxelinux.0 to 192.168.2.100:2071
14:29	so.. it does try to serve it to the failed one
14:29	<Blinny> Gadi: I'm seeing nasty things with gvfs and I'm hoping that your script has already seen & accounted for them...?
14:29	Gadi: (are these hackfest techniques going into Hardy? I'm stuck on Ubuntu LTS)
14:29	<johnny> good to know.. not sure why it fails
14:29	still
14:30	vagrantc, the problem here.. is that it works great on one client either tftp-hap or atftp
14:30	but not at all on the other
14:30	<vagrantc> ugh.
14:30	<johnny> excuse me..
14:30	it works great my virtualbox vm
14:30	but not at all on these two dell laptops i was planning on testing sound/localdev on
14:31	both have broadcom pxe implementations..
14:31	<ltsppbot> "Gadi" pasted "S15userLoginCheck.20080721" (80 lines) at http://pastebot.ltsp.org/56
14:31	<johnny> i have a thinkpad here that my gf has from school...
14:31	but the damn thing has a password set
14:31	can't get it to netboot
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14:31	<Gadi> Blinny: as for hardy, not sure unless people request a backport - but heck, what do I know from ubuntu packaging
14:31	<Blinny> Gracias
14:31	<Gadi> :)
14:31	<Blinny> heh
14:32	<Gadi> brb
14:32	<Blinny> Cheers.
14:32	<johnny> so.. does anybody here had any problems with dell laptops or broadcom pxe implementations ?
14:34	oh.. questions while you guys are here
14:34	do you guys set PULSE_SERVER or ESPEAKER vars in your default env vars ?
14:35	and.. should i be able to play sounds on the local console with mpg123 -o pulse ?
14:35	i get permission denied errors if i don't prefix it with PULSE_SERVER, so figured you guys had that in your env vars
14:36	<Blinny> Gadi: And I just need a 'LTSP_LIMIT_ONE_SESSION = true' in lts.conf, right?
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14:38	<johnny> ok.. i'll play with wireshark later
14:39	i also have a similair error on a client at my ubuntu deployment
14:39	one of my machines won't bootup without a floppy.. the other 3 are fine
14:39	<Blinny> johnny: I don't have espeaker or pulse_server env var on my thin client
14:40	<johnny> even when i do set em.. i get no sound anyways .. but at least it doesn't failout
14:40	real life time.. yay..
14:40	lol
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14:45	<Gadi> vagrantc: hey, where did you leave the whole ssh -O stuff?
14:46	are we still at it being an ssh version diff?
14:46	Blinny: yeah
14:47	johnny: those vars are set by ldm upon login if SOUND=True
14:47	<vagrantc> Gadi: for me, changing openssh version fixes it, for warren, it doesn't seem to.
14:47	<Gadi> you must have something that resets your environment
14:47	<vagrantc> Gadi: so my guess is warren has some other issue with a similar symptom...
14:48	<Gadi> vagrantc: I was thinking over vacation - do you think: pkill -P ${PPID} would be as effective as kill -1 ${PPID}
14:48	?
14:48	because the former might be gentler enough to allow an ssh -O call
14:49	<vagrantc> Gadi: don't know the difference
14:49	<Gadi> the former kills all children with parent proc ID of PPID
14:49	the latter kills the proces PPID
14:49	<vagrantc> Gadi: but if it kills the sshd, then it's going to break "ssh -O exit"
14:49	<Gadi> right
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14:49	<Gadi> and I think it wont
14:49	it should keep sshd (which is $PPID)
14:50	<laga> duh, i just switched to this tab and read "the former kills all children" and thought "oh my god, that's horrible"
14:50	<Gadi> and just kill its kids
14:50	<vagrantc> Gadi: it'll kill the children of the initial SENTINEL establishing ssh connection
14:50	Gadi: so i think it'd be just as bad
14:51	<Gadi> hmm...
14:51	<vagrantc> maybe slightly cleaner...
14:51	the whole issue is an annoying mess.
14:51	<Gadi> I am wondering, tho, if the parent would do an ssh_end_session call to PAM
14:51	since its children died
14:52	as opposed to the parent-killing way
14:54	<vagrantc> something for the mad scientist lab
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14:59	<Gadi> bwahahaha
15:06	interesting... preliminary tests seem positive... bwahahaha
15:06	I need food...
15:08	<vagrantc> Gadi: all this stuff would be easier to test if we ever implemented ldm's init.d idea ... although would could probably just use rc.d with a different prefix ... i.e. S for ... Login ... K for end session ... P for ... pre-login ?
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15:11	<vagrantc> maybe it would be best to have an init.d thingy
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15:20	<Gadi> vagrantc: yeah, I coded a bit of that in my first failed attempt to split out X from ldm
15:20	:)
15:20	simple cut/paste job
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15:21	<Gadi> I need to get a better idea from ogra as to how he tests and whether intrepid works yet
15:21	(I know the answer is: of course it works - it has worked since Breezy! ;) )
15:21	I just need the idiot's guide
15:21	<vagrantc> heh
15:29	<quique> i downloaded from rom - o - matic a rom for my client's nic. The info I got from lspci is: Davicom semiconductor 21x4x DEC-Tulip compatilbe 10/100 ethernet (rev 10)
15:29	the rom works but i see devicom poll
15:30	got one
15:30	scrolling down the screen constantly
15:30	until the login screen come up
15:30	why does it do that?
15:30	and is there a way to not have it do that?
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15:34	<quique> anyone have an idea on the poll thing?
15:38	<johnny> scroll down?
15:38	it does that
15:39	if you mean a bunch of ........
15:40	then no, you can't stop it
15:40	<quique> if just keeps printing
15:40	davicom_poll
15:40	<johnny> oh
15:40	well.. i doubt it
15:40	<quique> then davicom_poll got one
15:40	<johnny> unless you customize your rom-o-matic config
15:40	<quique> for like 3 min
15:40	<johnny> sounds broken
15:40	nothing on the linux side tho
15:40	<quique> i looked at the customize options
15:40	<johnny> unless it is after the .....
15:40	<quique> but I don't know what would stop that?
15:40	<johnny> well.. does it happen before linux loads?
15:40	<quique> it is after the crtl-b deal
15:40	<johnny> ctrl +b ?
15:40	the managed boot agent?
15:40	<quique> until linux loads (like the ubuntu loading bar)
15:41	when the rom loads it loads bits
15:41	then tells you about the managed boot agent crtl b
15:41	and then the davicom_poll starts
15:41	<johnny> well.. usually that means you don't need rom-o-matic floppy/cd
15:41	unless your network card isn't the one in the original machine
15:42	<quique> really?
15:42	it is
15:42	but it's rpl novell
15:42	not pxe
15:42	<johnny> aha..
15:42	i figured such things support both
15:42	that sounds old
15:42	<quique> yup it's pII
15:43	i have about 20 clients PII and PIII
15:43	and they all have rpl novell
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15:43	<quique> i'm trying to figure out how to configure a rpl server that will chain load
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15:44	<quique> but haven't gotten to that point yet
15:44	<johnny> well.. it sounds like your nic might be broken
15:44	<quique> just trying to get them to boot with floppies right now
15:44	really? but it does eventual boot up
15:44	and works fine after that
15:44	<johnny> sure.. but it shouldn't take 3 minutes to get to the linux part
15:45	<quique> what could it be?
15:45	oh also
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15:45	<quique> it's one of those nics that have a plate in the back
15:45	and plug into the motherboard
15:45	you know what I mean?
15:46	<johnny> never seen one in RL
15:46	<quique> rl?
15:46	<johnny> real life
15:47	try plugging in another nic
15:47	or go to a different machine
15:47	<quique> ok
15:49	another question: the ltsp that's in the repos for etch. Is that ltsp 5?
15:49	or 4.2?
15:49	<johnny> i don't know
15:49	don't use debian for ltsp
15:50	<quique> why bad idea?
15:50	or do you mean YOU don't use debian for ltsp?
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16:06	<johnny> i mean i don't
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16:10	<quique> johnny what distro do you use?
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16:11	<johnny> i have 1 ubuntu ltsp deployment
16:11	currently working on gentoo's ltsp
16:12	<quique> i like ubuntu, but I have some customers that are hardcore debian heads
16:12	I like debian, don't get me wrong, but for ltsp ubuntu seem to have more support
16:13	<cilkay> Is there any love being shown to ltsp by the Mandriva folks?
16:13	<quique> no idea
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16:15	<johnny> actually not cilkay
16:16	good question
16:16	i have yet to see a person ask for it
16:16	<vagrantc> quique: in what way does ubuntu have more support than debian?
16:16	<johnny> i bet fedora's stuff would work without too much effort, unless i missed huge changes in the way mandriva works
16:16	ubuntu has more docs with their name on it vagrantc .. :)
16:16	<vagrantc> true enough
16:16	<johnny> even if the instructions are generic
16:16	well nubae is working on that for you :)
16:17	and for us
16:17	<vagrantc> there's some significant differences that would actually be annoying, too... like NFS vs. NBD and such
16:17	<cilkay> That's a shame because Mandriva is a very polished distro, a bit underappreciated I think.
16:18	<vagrantc> cilkay: it's simply a matter of mandriva folks expressing interest and doing the work.
16:18	<johnny> yeah. that's on them
16:18	we're more than willing to help
16:18	like slackware
16:18	cilkay, i've heard more about ltsp on slackware than mandriva
16:18	which is really sad
16:18	<vagrantc> ltsp is probably one of the most interesting cross-distro projects
16:19	<johnny> vagrantc, i gotta come out to see you again :)
16:19	<vagrantc> as it is essentially maintained by a group of representatives from each distro
16:19	<johnny> btw.. i'm mentioning you on my travelogue on the discuss.amtraktrains.com forums
16:19	or rather.. my introduction to the forums
16:20	<vagrantc> heh
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16:55	<cilkay> I see a couple of drak tools in the repos, drakpxelinux and draktermserv, which look interesting. I'll install and see what they're about.
16:57	<vagrantc> looking likely debian lenny will release with sshfs-fuse 2.1 :)
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17:32	<warren> btw
17:32	where is that URL where somebody tested the badnwidth that flash uses over a network?
17:35	<Lns> Anyone having issues with logging off of TCs? I'm seeing the same issues as a long time ago where it delays for +30 seconds before it shows a logoff dialog.
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17:41	<warren> nm
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18:14	<gbolte> hmm that would be interesting to know
18:14	flash BW
18:14	<cilkay> johnny: The reason why you're not hearing much from Mandriva about LTSP is that they seem to be doing their own thing.
18:15	I'm looking at a GUI tool called draktermserv for setting up terminal services for thin clients.
18:16	There's another one called drakpxelinux for setting up PXE.
18:16	<gbolte> hmm
18:18	<cilkay> All sorts of fascinating drak tools, e.g. drakinvictus for setting up a load-balancing firewall.
18:18	That is, with two WAN connections that are seen as one by clients on the network.
18:18	on the LAN
18:18	<gbolte> oh thats cool kinda like CARP on BSD
18:18	<cilkay> I have to document this and put it up on my blog. It's very, very cool.
18:18	Mandriva does such a poor job of marketing.
18:19	<gbolte> lol
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20:15	<quique_> on my client i'm geting: Loading aborted
20:16	then it gives me a bunch of crazy characters and "boot:"
20:17	i hit enter and it loads vmlinuz and initrd
20:17	then says issuing reset
20:17	the ubuntu loading bar appears for a few seconds and then disappears
20:17	any clues?
20:19	it never gets to the login screen on that client
20:19	another client boots up fine
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22:51	<johnny> hmm..
22:52	is there a benefit to setting the hostname of the ltsp client to ltsp vs localhost?
22:58	<warren> johnny: look at how fedora does it. a bit of an ugly hack, but clients print a unique hostname in LDM
22:59	I suppose I could improve it: If DHCP didn't give me a unique hostname (not localhost), then assign a fake hostname like I currently do.
22:59	I think I give it a fake hostname lke client-$IPADDRESS
23:04	If you work on LTSP for your Linux distribution, please see my post on ltsp-developer.
23:04	ogra: johnny: dberkholz: cyberorg: ping
23:06	<johnny> which post?
23:06	perhaps donnie is busy with new baby
23:06	<warren> oh new baby
23:07	johnny: it might not have hit the list yet because sourceforge sucks.
23:07	johnny: also posted here: https://www.redhat.com/archives/k12osn/2008-September/msg00014.html
23:08	<johnny> see it
23:08	well he actually would be the person on the gentoo side for this
23:08	since he is actually involved in the gentoo organization already
23:09	warren, so.. you've played with mms.cfg before?
23:09	<warren> johnny: yes, I've not found any options to be useful
23:09	johnny: although if we get this option, it would be extremely useful
23:10	<johnny> there is actually one option that is supposed to help
23:10	<cilkay> Well that was a few more hours wasted chasing wild geese. Apparently, Mandriva's draktermserv is broken and unloved.
23:10	<johnny> turning off hardware acceleration
23:10	BUT...... YOU CAN"T SET IT IN mms.cfg!
23:10	<warren> johnny: it actually improves bandwidth usage? I don't see how.
23:10	<cilkay> should have known better and just stuck with Ubuntu, which is installing as I write.
23:10	<warren> johnny: what does it improve?
23:11	* cilkay has a soft spot in his head for Mandriva
23:11	<johnny> i was told it improves performance..
23:11	<warren> in what way?
23:11	<johnny> i was trying to test it
23:11	but as i said.. you can't set it in mms.cfg.. only through the gui
23:11	<warren> well, I can ask for that in mms.cfg
23:11	<johnny> on the distributed flashplayer for linux, you can't even set defaults for the mic/camera vars in mms.cfg
23:11	<warren> what does it flip in the user's homedir if you check it though?
23:11	<johnny> it doesn't!
23:12	it's like those camera and mic settings
23:12	<warren> where the heck is it stored then?
23:12	how does the option survive ?
23:12	<johnny> uhmm.. i have no idea actually.. been trying to figure it out
23:13	i only see an asset cache locally
23:14	how do the mic and camera settings survive? :)
23:15	hmm.. maybe it's in the browser..?
23:16	<warren> I dunno, but if you can figure it out
23:16	I can ask for the right thing
23:16	<johnny> i personally have no idea about whether turning off the hardware acceleration is valuable, but it did lead me on an interesting goose chase
23:17	<warren> ok, I just confirmed that Disabling Hardware Acceleration makes no difference in bandwidth
23:17	64mbit/sec for the awesome video of pretty girl playing ukulele in both cases
23:18	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1RXfiRPE74
23:20	<johnny> here you go warren
23:20	The Settings Manager is a special control panel that runs on your local computer but is displayed within and accessed from the Adobe website. Adobe does not have access to the settings that you see in the Settings Manager or to personal information on your computer.
23:20	isn't that weird
23:21	<warren> johnny: the part about "displayed witihn and accessed from Adobe website" part might be misleading
23:22	johnny: I noticed that they can embed parts of the config in pages that appear to be on their website
23:22	johnny: but that might just be a weird UI
23:22	johnny: it still has to store those options somewhere
23:23	johnny: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=444552 btw, do you folks see this problem?
23:24	<johnny> sure, it loads that from their site
23:24	<warren> johnny: OTOH, I don't see how that option helps anything. I don't see any difference in CPU usage on the server, or bandwidth between the client and server.
23:24	johnny: the option is actually stored on adobe's server!?
23:25	<johnny> warren, good to know,
23:25	well perhaps the option really isn't persistant?
23:25	only the other ones are
23:25	was just rereading the flash player admin guide
23:25	<warren> no, the option is persistent
23:25	I closed the browser entirely and opened it
23:25	<johnny> sadly it is in pdf format
23:25	<warren> you can't read PDF?
23:25	evince handles it fine
23:26	johnny: what exactly does it enable/disable?
23:26	<johnny> i am reading pdf
23:26	i just like html versions better
23:26	i hate reading pdfs online
23:27	you can link directly to certain pieces with html
23:27	as i said, i don't know what good it was.. i just heard somebody suggest it
23:27	figured it was worth a shot
23:28	<warren> from this perspective of testing it, it seems like placebo
23:34	<johnny> hmm
23:34	now.. if only i could figure out why these two dells won't find my tftp prefix
23:36	<warren> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HeP1Klmk0ng&NR=1 wow, this girl isn't bad
23:37	entertaining, and you can tell she's trying to avoid cracking up
23:53	<kwak> anyone using rdesktop and centos based ltsp?