IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.libera.chat (webchat)
Channel log from 25 March 2016 (all times are UTC)
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| 01:17 | <neo_> hello
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| 11:18 | <alkisg> OK new highscore: [ 5.546362] block nbd9: queue cleared
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| 11:19 | ...boot to LDM in 5.5 seconds :D
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| 11:22 | <sebd> alkisg: hi, can you share your specs ? when do you count from ?
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| 11:23 | 5.5 seconds from power on ?
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| 11:23 | <alkisg> Hi sebd, this is a virtualbox thin vm under my core i5 system, booting in bridged gigabit networking, counting the dmesg time at ldm
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| 11:23 | So it's after the kernel and initrd are loaded via tftp
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| 11:23 | <sebd> ok
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| 11:23 | still good
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| 11:24 | <alkisg> A really ancient pentium 3 that used to boot in 1 minute when I was testing ltsp in 2008, now boots in 30 secs
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| 11:25 | <sebd> let's check my average PCs' dmesg
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| 11:26 | <alkisg> The nbd9 message is when ldm checks for a newer chroot, so it's the last dmesg entry for me when a client boots up
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| 11:26 | I'm using that one because it's the easiest way to see it without counting externally
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| 11:36 | <sebd> ok so in my real world, switched-on clients score between 10 and 38 seconds. Most of them are not gigabit, that is why.
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| 11:38 | a lot of them start in around 15 seconds.
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| 11:39 | <alkisg> I've been doing a lot of optimizations in the ltsp code
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| 11:39 | So if you want to test if it improved your boot time, you'd have to use the greek schools proposed ppa...
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| 11:40 | Which distro/version?
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| 11:40 | <gvy> alkisg, my ancient PIII-500 hosts back in 2006 booted way faster using ALTSP (and didn't end up booting Edubuntu's LTSP5 due to 64M RAM)... nice timing tho :)
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| 11:41 | <sebd> alkisg: debian 8 jessie
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| 11:42 | <alkisg> sebd, can you upload one of the fast dmesg of your clients?
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| 11:42 | in pastebin or so...
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| 11:42 | or mail if you don't want it public
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| 11:44 | <sebd> alkisg: ATM the fastest is 9.something, I am looking for a better one (I administer 4 real LTSP networks)
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| 11:44 | <alkisg> No need; I just want to see if it has any big delays there
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| 11:44 | Using debian, you were spared the 10 second delay in Ubuntu that got me started with all this
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| 11:44 | <sebd> ok
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| 11:44 | <alkisg> But there were some others that I optimized, and I wanted to see if you have them there
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| 11:45 | Any dmesg under 15-20 seconds is fine
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| 12:11 | sebd: thanks! You were not affected by any of the 3 major timeouts, so you'll only see a small benefit from the recent changes
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| 12:12 | You *would* be affected by 2 of them if you upgraded to stretch, but they've been solved now
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| 12:12 | So you're lucky, you will never even see them :)
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| 12:16 | <sebd> :)
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| 12:36 | <alkisg> gvy: ubuntu 12.04 with ltsp-trunk boots in 27 seconds in a pentium 3 with 64mb ram here
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| 12:36 | <gvy> :)
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| 12:37 | <alkisg> 16.04 would boot in around 30, if not for some drm issues with its ancient graphics card
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| 12:38 | (but not with 64 ram anymore)
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| 15:18 | <alkisg> !client-list
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| 15:18 | <ltsp> client-list: to get a list of all nbd-clients (which sometimes is the same as ltsp clients), run: netstat -tn | sed -n 's/.*:10809 *\([0-9.]*\):.*/\1/p' | sort -Vu
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| 18:46 | <vagrantc> alkisg: ltsp seems fine for the most part, but the new epoptes failed to start... haven't dug in much yet
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| 18:47 | <alkisg> vagrantc: the server side?
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| 18:47 | Like, in service epoptes (re)start?
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| 18:48 | Or the GUI? Or the client?
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| 18:48 | <vagrantc> alkisg: server-side
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| 18:49 | <alkisg> sudo service epoptes restart, put syslog+stdout to pastebin?
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| 18:50 | <vagrantc> +stdout ?
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| 18:50 | <alkisg> stderr
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| 18:52 | <vagrantc> from service? there's absoletely no output there.
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| 18:53 | should i have to do anything beyond installing epoptes?
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| 18:54 | <alkisg> sudo apt-get install epoptes
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| 18:54 | add yourself to the epoptes group
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| 18:54 | logout/login _or_ use newgrp epoptes
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| 18:54 | and then you should be able to run the UI
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| 18:54 | Do you want me to have a quick look via vnc?
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| 18:54 | !vnc-dide
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| 18:54 | <ltsp> vnc-dide: To share your screen with me, run this: sudo apt-get --yes install x11vnc; x11vnc -connect srv1-dide.ioa.sch.gr - this is a reverse connection, it doesn't need port forwarding etc.
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| 18:54 | <vagrantc> http://paste.debian.net/418764/
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| 18:54 | there should be an epoptes process running, yes?
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| 18:57 | <alkisg> http://paste.debian.net/418765/
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| 18:57 | <vagrantc> no such luck here
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| 18:58 | running /etc/init.d/epoptes from an xterminal breaks my session, for good measure
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| 18:59 | <alkisg> Wow
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| 18:59 | <vagrantc> hrm. not anymore
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| 18:59 | <alkisg> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~epoptes/epoptes/trunk/changes?filter_file_id=epoptes.init-20111017094800-yrt7sme6ru9g1gzu-1
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| 18:59 | <vagrantc> so, it seems to fail due to /etc/lts.conf not being present?
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| 18:59 | <alkisg> Last change in 2012
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| 19:00 | ...I don't see anything in the code reading lts.conf in the daemon...
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| 19:00 | <vagrantc> hrm.
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| 19:01 | <alkisg> # strace -e trace=file service epoptes start 2>&1 | grep lts
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| 19:01 | stat64("/opt/ltsp/images", {st_mode=S_IFDIR|0755, st_size=4096, ...}) = 0
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| 19:01 | <vagrantc> you know, this was a system i experimented with libpam-sshauth+lightdm+lightdm-webkit-greeter ...
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| 19:01 | <alkisg> I didn't read lts.conf for me
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| 19:01 | *it
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| 19:02 | <vagrantc> maybe this is just a borked system
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| 19:02 | <alkisg> could be, I don't think the epoptes code reads lts.conf
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| 19:02 | <vagrantc> maybe the initramfs-tools hooks without the prereqs ran and mangled some things
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| 19:28 | <alkisg> egrep -qs 'ltsp|nfs|nbd' /proc/cmdline ==> this isn't matching anything, is it?
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| 19:29 | <vagrantc> oh yes.
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| 19:29 | root on lvm, with ltsp in the volume name
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| 19:30 | BOOT_IMAGE=/vmlinuz-4.4.0-1-amd64 root=/dev/mapper/sltsp-root ro quiet
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| 19:31 | that's ... not great.
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| 19:31 | alkisg_away is now known as alkisg | |
| 19:31 | <alkisg> vagrantc: sorry, the check for ltsp clients isn't very good then
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| 19:32 | The logic is "if it's an ltsp client, allow the EPOPTES lts.conf directive to specify if we want to run epoptes on the client or not"
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| 19:33 | vagrantc: can you change that so that it greps for init=/sbin/init-ltsp?
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| 19:33 | <vagrantc> yeah, that egrep never really seemed to be a problem to me ... but i guess my last build i did with lvm ...
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| 19:33 | nfs and nbd also seem a bit overly zealous, thinking about it now
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| 19:33 | <alkisg> grep -qs init=/sbin/init-ltsp /proc/cmdline
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| 19:34 | We don't care if it's nbd, nfs or aoe
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| 19:34 | or even local loopback etc
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| 19:34 | Want me to push it?
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| 19:35 | if grep -qs init=/sbin/init-ltsp /proc/cmdline && [ -x /usr/bin/getltscfg ]; then
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| 19:35 | <vagrantc> alkisg: that seems much safer, sure.
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| 19:35 | alkisg: though i think not all distros have exactly that in the boot commadline ...
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| 19:35 | <alkisg> See, your weird setups do have their uses :D
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| 19:35 | Uncovering bugs
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| 19:36 | <vagrantc> seem to recall gentoo having a slightly different commandline
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| 19:36 | <alkisg> We're already using it in epoptes, in ./debian/epoptes-client.init
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| 19:36 | So if Gentoo ever gets epoptes, we'll patch both of them then
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| 19:36 | * vagrantc never expected lvm to be classified as "weird setup" | |
| 19:37 | <vagrantc> yup
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| 19:37 | <alkisg> ./server/Redhat/configs/pxe-default.conf: APPEND rw initrd=initrd.ltsp init=/sbin/init-ltsp selinux=0 root=dhcp rhgb video=LVDS-1:d rdshell
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| 19:38 | Redhat is ok, can't find gentoo
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| 19:38 | later!
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| 19:38 | alkisg is now known as alkisg_away | |
| 19:39 | * vagrantc will push if alkisg_away didn't already | |
| 19:39 | <vagrantc> appears to be code for that all over the place
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| 19:40 | well, three files, four lines...
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| 19:53 | <lee> MilkDrop & Geiss Kreygasm
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| 19:53 | erp
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| 19:53 | well, that was the wrong window :D
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| 19:54 | <vagrantc> just for that, you've been sentenced to fix at least one LTSP bug :)
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| 19:55 | alkisg_away: seems to be working better now
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| 19:55 | <lee> I'm far more likely to be responsible for creating (or maybe finding) than fixing
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| 19:55 | we're on a, ubuntu 12.04 network at the moment, I'm waiting for the 16.04 release before playing with a new LTSP version
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| 19:56 | <vagrantc> you might want to find those bugs *before* it releases :)
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| 19:56 | given that it's only a month or so away
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| 19:56 | much easier to fix at this point than later
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| 20:03 | <lee> I just don't use it enough tbh
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| 20:03 | I set up some fat clients and that's pretty much it
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| 20:03 | or at least, that's it for now
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| 20:04 | <vagrantc> alkisg_away: working much better with that patch ... should the similar client-side code be patched as well?
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| 20:10 | looks like it was already updated in at least one place
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| 20:40 | <Wellholt> Hope to find answers to how to set up a 9 Minecraft clients through ltsp server.
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| 20:41 | <maldridge> Wellholt: greetings, what you're trying to do shouldn't be any real issues
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| 20:41 | you'll want to run your clients as "fat" clients if you can so that you get better performance since Minecraft is highly graphical
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| 20:42 | <Wellholt> Ltsp looks simple but how about the 3D acceleration
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| 20:43 | <maldridge> that is entirely dependant on what your hardware can do. I should point out that unless you have some extra software installed, minecraft expects the renderer to be capable of running on CPU only without GPU assistance
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| 20:43 | Wellholt: do you have hardware to test with?
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| 20:43 | <Wellholt> Ok I have to stop thinking about thin clients then.
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| 20:44 | Yes I will set up my test rig next week
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| 20:44 | <vagrantc> Wellholt: you can run LTSP fat clients if the machines are capable of running whatever application you want
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| 20:44 | Wellholt: but graphics over the network are going to be a limitation if you want to do genuinely thin clients.
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| 20:46 | <Wellholt> Ok and Eave iI use 10Gb nic IT want change
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| 20:49 | <vagrantc> 3D graphics over the network is generally very poorly supported, no matter how much bandwidth you have. not that it's impossible, but it would probably involve significant software development.
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| 20:50 | hence, LTSP fat clients. you still get the advantage of centralized administration, but you can take advantage of local hardware capabilities, such as 3D graphics.
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| 20:51 | <Wellholt> I like to set up an environment at my kids school for educatinal use and IF They could play Minecraft on the same thin client IT would be a pluss
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| 20:52 | <vagrantc> in general, i wouldn't recommend thin clients except in very specific circumstances. most LTSP deployments i know of are fat clients these days.
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| 20:52 | <Wellholt> Ok I will use a mixed client environment
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| 20:52 | <vagrantc> it's simpler, more efficient, and performs better
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| 20:53 | <Wellholt> Do u know Userful
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| 20:55 | <vagrantc> not off the top of my head
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| 20:55 | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Userful ?
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| 20:55 | <Wellholt> I have seen an Implementation of Userful using one graphic Cars for each terminal from a singel server
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| 20:56 | Cool thank a lot
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| 20:56 | <maldridge> Wellholt: if you have a mixed environment, look into pnp
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| 20:56 | <Wellholt> Yes
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| 20:58 | <vagrantc> i'm guessing userful is not using off-the shelf free software to accomplish that
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| 20:58 | <Wellholt> Nope
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| 20:58 | No
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| 20:59 | Really expesive
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| 20:59 | <maldridge> definitly not, my site has one of those and it is a magic black box that we hope never breaks
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| 21:00 | <Wellholt> Huh
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| 21:00 | I look
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| 21:02 | In that case you could Go for nvidia cuda viritulized GPU infrysta but so teribly expensive
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| 21:03 | what IF you like to split a CPU and GPU into 2 clients
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| 21:08 | thank for your help ;-)
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| 22:08 | <vagrantc> alkisg_away: well, uploaded ltsp 5.5.7-1 to debian, might see it in the archives in ~6 hours.
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| 22:08 | alkisg_away: if you need/want/can sync it to ubuntu yet.
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