IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.libera.chat (webchat)
Channel log from 30 October 2019 (all times are UTC)
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| 00:52 | <dgroos> Hello again! I haven't got screen broadcasting on epoptes to work on ltsp19. I can log out, shutdown and WOL the clients w/epoptes, though.
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| 05:18 | <alkisg> dgroos, in case you see irclogs, this means that the *system* epoptes-client isn't running, while the *session* epoptes-client is running
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| 06:03 | <alkisg> Aaaah sorry, or it means you're using wayland :)
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| 06:04 | VNC won't work in Wayland
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| 08:34 | <meo> I am still undecided if wayland is a good idea
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| 08:35 | <alkisg> I think it's necessary, to reflect all the hardware changes
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| 08:36 | It went from "draw an arc and a rectangle to display a window", to bitmaps, to opengl, to 3d only rendering and compositors... not sure that xorg codebase can be kept clean after all those changes
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| 08:43 | <meo> no I understand the necessity to replace xorg, I am just not sure wayland is an adequate solution for that
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| 08:59 | <fiesh> hmm a possibly dumb question: ltsp-chroot doesn't mount the distfiles for me (that's where gentoo saves the package sources in)
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| 08:59 | where can I add that so -c / -m mount them automatically?
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| 09:01 | <alkisg> Ouch LTSP5 :D
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| 09:01 | * alkisg refuses to re-read the ltsp5 code base :D | |
| 09:02 | <fiesh> heh ok
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| 09:02 | I haven't seen any updated version in the gentoo portage tree... :-P
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| 09:02 | (not that there's any version in there to begin with)
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| 09:07 | <alkisg> If I recall correctly, you should provide a -vendor-functions override, and from there, override the mount_package_cache function (or a similar name)
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| 09:10 | <fiesh> ah thanks, there's a /usr/share/ltsp/ltsp-chroot-functions that was altered
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| 09:10 | I mean adapted to gentoo
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| 11:52 | <dgroos> alkisg: Thanks for the reply. I'm not using wayland so I guess it's the system vs session epoptes issue. I don't really understand what that means so not able to generate possible troubleshooting procedures. What do you suggest?
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| 11:58 | <alkisg> dgroos: I'll be back in 10-15 minutes if you're around then we can vnc
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| 12:00 | <dgroos> alkisg: I'm not at school now but will be there in about 20-30 minutes, thanks!
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| 12:45 | <eu^205215175117> ping alkisg
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| 12:49 | <alkisg> eu^205215175117: in 10 mins now :)
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| 12:50 | <eu^205215175117> :-)
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| 12:54 | <alkisg> !vnc-edide
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| 12:54 | <ltsp> vnc-edide: To share your screen with me, open Epoptes → Help menu → Remote support → Host: srv1-dide.ioa.sch.gr, and click the Connect button
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| 12:54 | <alkisg> eu^205215175117:
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| 12:55 | eu^205215175117: anyway leave it open there and I'll have a look when I come back again
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| 12:55 | I'm not at the office atm so I'm only available intermittently
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| 12:57 | <alkisg> dgroos: login to a client
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| 12:58 | <dgroos> k!
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| 12:58 | moment...
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| 12:59 | <dgroos> and oops, just another moment
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| 12:59 | <gp> What is the best way to use network home folders? Network mount on LTSP server and leave client home drive as is?
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| 13:02 | <uumas> gp: I'm currently doing that and it works fine. I'll be switching to mounting directly on clients though because I have no reason really to have the ltsp server in the middle. Just a bit more work to setup.
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| 13:04 | <gp> uumas: ty
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| 13:05 | <dgroos> alkisg: done
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| 13:30 | <alkisg> gp,should be just one FSTAB line in lts.conf
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| 13:33 | dgroos: vnc disconnected for some reason
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| 13:33 | I think your issue is related to tigervnc
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| 13:33 | Try installing xvnc4viewer instead, and uninstalling tigervnc
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| 13:34 | <dgroos> will do, thanks!
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| 13:40 | <douglas_br> hello
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| 13:40 | Is it possible to do ltsp client with Raspberry PI?
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| 13:54 | <alkisg> douglas_br: yes, but it's hard
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| 13:55 | It requires terminal commands
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| 13:55 | E.g. the ability to maintain chroots or netboot over nfs rw
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| 13:55 | It needs better documentation before it becomes very easy
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| 13:57 | <douglas_br> right I am seeing PINET, but I do not know
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| 13:58 | <alkisg> !raspberrypi
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| 13:58 | <ltsp> raspberrypi: (#1) Ubuntu/LTSP on Pi 2: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/RaspberryPi, or (#2) Debian/LTSP (with raspbian chroot) on Pi: http://cascadia.debian.net/trenza/Documentation/raspberrypi-ltsp-howto/, or (#3) unofficial Ubuntu/LTSP (with raspbian chroot) on Pi: http://pinet.org.uk/
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| 13:58 | <alkisg> Those methods used to work
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| 13:58 | Then they became unmaintained
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| 13:59 | <alkisg> I tested rpi with ltsp19 and it works fine, but it needs documentation
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| 13:59 | <douglas_br> what do you recommend for schools for low price and confortable experience
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| 13:59 | <alkisg> I booted rpi2, rpi3 and rpi4 with it
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| 13:59 | !cheap-client
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| 13:59 | <ltsp> cheap-client: https://www.gearbest.com/tv-box-c_11262/?attr=2081-1279
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| 14:00 | <alkisg> Stay away from raspberries :)
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| 14:00 | (unless you only want to do python classes without surfing at all)
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| 14:04 | <douglas_br> right
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| 16:20 | <alkisg> vagrantc or any other native English speaker, could you comment on this? https://github.com/ltsp/ltsp/issues/57#issuecomment-547989903
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| 16:20 | I.e. HOSTNAME_BASE/EXTRA, or HOSTNAME_PREFIX/SUFFIX ?
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| 16:25 | <uumas> (Not native, but I'll give my opinion anyway)
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| 16:25 | Prefix and suffix are definitely clearer than base and extra. You could probably keep the old ones working for backwards compatibility, but document the new ones.
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| 16:25 | <vagrantc> no backwards compatibility!
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| 16:25 | :)
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| 16:25 | <alkisg> +1!!!!! :D
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| 16:25 | <vagrantc> alkisg: yeah, prefix/suffix makes more sense
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| 16:25 | <alkisg> Thank you uumas; but I didn't like the fact that there's no "middle" part
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| 16:26 | prefix/suffix is supposed to have a "body"
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| 16:26 | <vagrantc> presuming prefix is always at the beginning and suffix is always at the end
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| 16:26 | <alkisg> Yes, but there's no parameter for "middle", it's only prefix and suffix
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| 16:26 | <vagrantc> HOSTNAME_BASE/PREFIX/SUFFIX ?
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| 16:26 | <uumas> Well, the body is the automatically generated part
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| 16:26 | <alkisg> No
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| 16:27 | prefix is the "ltsp" part
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| 16:27 | and suffix is the ip or the mac
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| 16:27 | There are only 2 parts, not 3
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| 16:28 | HOSTNAME_SUFFIX=“ip|mac”
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| 16:28 | <uumas> Ah, okay
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| 16:29 | <vagrantc> it's a little linguistically odd to have a prefix+suffix without a middle ... but not tragically :)
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| 16:30 | <alkisg> OK so I keep the documentation and change the code, to use prefix/suffix :)
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| 16:31 | Ty!
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| 16:31 | (the documentation says prefix/suffix while the code says base/extra :P)
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| 16:32 | <vagrantc> even better, it's fixing a bug in the code!
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| 16:38 | <vagrantc> alkisg: fwiw, i really prefer longer descriptive variable names to shorter ones that need to be deciphered ... seems like you've been leaning the other way
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| 16:40 | <alkisg> vagrantc: for example?
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| 16:41 | <vagrantc> alkisg: kind of distracted right now, but i'll follow up
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| 16:41 | <alkisg> https://ltsp.github.io/man/ltsp.conf/
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| 16:41 | Sure
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| 16:43 | <vagrantc> whoah, you support SDDM :)
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| 16:44 | ah, this is what made me think of it: PWMERGE_SUR=, PWMERGE_SGR=, PWMERGE_DGR=, PWMERGE_DUR=
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| 16:45 | granted, those would get really long to unpack ... but it's pretty opaque at first glance
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| 16:53 | <vagrantc> alkisg: there might have been some other internal variables, though those aren't quite as big a deal
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| 16:56 | <alkisg> vagrantc: those are the parameters of pwmerge, which is a tool that might be useful outside of ltsp too
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| 16:56 | It's pwmerge --sur etc
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| 16:56 | And at that context, when you only have sur/sur/sgr/dgr etc, expanding them doesn't make much sense... too long
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| 16:56 | <vagrantc> a tool external to ltsp?
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| 16:56 | <alkisg> E.g. pwmerge can be used to migrate the users of an old installation to a new one
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| 16:57 | I tried to make pwmerge and pamltsp as standalone as possible
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| 16:57 | So that people that need them can use them without ltsp
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| 16:58 | <vagrantc> alkisg: so then my question about variable names translates into commandline options :)
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| 16:59 | <alkisg> True; I'd be glad to have better names for pwmerge parameters, but I couldn't find any
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| 16:59 | And --source-user-regex was just too large
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| 17:00 | (considering that all 4 of them were regexes)
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| 17:00 | <vagrantc> not with tab completion :P
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| 17:00 | <alkisg> If you're willing to implement tab completion, sure
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| 17:00 | I don't have the time for it
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| 17:00 | I'm about to stop working in ltsp until the summer, to finish my phd :)
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| 17:00 | <vagrantc> sure
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| 17:00 | <alkisg> So I want to wrap things up; and continue in august to prepare 20.04 for schools
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| 17:01 | Large parameters also make code calls unreadable; it would need 3 lines instead of 1, to call pwmerge
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| 17:02 | OK ok like stan lee used to say, 'nuff said :)
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| 17:03 | So far I have 3 bug fixes to do tomorrow, and hopefully that'll be all for now
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| 17:03 | <vagrantc> looks like i'll need to fix the download unverified binaries from the internet bug before pushing to unstable
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| 17:03 | <alkisg> That'd be most welcome
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| 17:04 | Personally I feel that bug reports to have them included in debian packages might be better; and I"m not worried about https security so much, as it's not directly runnable code, it goes to the clients via tftp and then the kernel is loaded and removes everything
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| 17:05 | <vagrantc> there are more people between the attack on the internet than on the local network, even though the local network attack is easier
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| 17:05 | <alkisg> It's hard to make an "ipxe malware"
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| 17:06 | <vagrantc> i don't follow; ipxe loads your kernel, initrd, etc. ... trivial to implement a very low-level exploit
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| 17:07 | "here, have this not-at-all-shady-kernel instead"
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| 17:07 | <alkisg> I think people would notice if they started downloading kernels from the internet; it needs 5 minutes to load them
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| 17:08 | And if they already have a man in the middle of https traffic, I'm not sure the other connections can be trusted either
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| 17:09 | It's already "s", secure; we have other areas much more in need of security
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| 17:09 | But if you wanna do it, of course I'd welcome it
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| 17:10 | <vagrantc> yeah, i don't feel comfortable moving it into an actual release without something more secure
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| 17:10 | given that, well, i've seen enough script kiddy attacks on https
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| 17:11 | debian release, that is ...
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| 17:11 | fine for experimental
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| 17:12 | <||cw> re command line options: the general practice is to have long names be however long they need to be, then have short names that are a single letter when possible
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| 17:15 | if they are all regex, then having that in the param name is redundant. --source-user would be plenty, and not that long to have a var name
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| 17:16 | <vagrantc> ||cw: yeah
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| 17:17 | <||cw> for https, as long as you're verifying the certs, that's plenty secure enough. you have to take over the client's cert authority first to spoof that
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| 17:18 | <vagrantc> bah.
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| 17:18 | there are plenty of shady certificate authorities that are "trusted"
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| 17:18 | <||cw> I assume it's a lot easier to spoof tftp
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| 17:19 | <vagrantc> agreed, but the number of potential attackers on the local network is presumably much smaller than on the internet
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| 17:20 | <||cw> the issue I see with it is that ltsp installs tend to be adhoc initially, for testing, and you'd likely only have self-signed, so either you need a cert authority on the server too that the clients can use, or you're left to checking them
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| 17:20 | <douglas_br> people! please: celeron J 1800 can be good choice to ltsp client? My first experience with ltsp is being in this year. We have some schools that have and old info lab. I am trying to use the old pcs, some of them have a poor MB and too old celeron processor that we did change for pentium. so, now stay good experience. for new labs, we are searching
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| 17:20 | low price configuration.
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| 17:21 | <vagrantc> ||cw: or you implement independent verification, and just use https for transport
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| 17:22 | definitely getting the packages fixed in debian (and all the other distros) would be preferable ... but that coudl take quite some time
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| 17:22 | <||cw> douglas_br: depends what you want to do on it. in most cases, it's the ram that's the bottleneck these days
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| 17:23 | * vagrantc mind boggles at thinking of a pentium as anything other than an i586 | |
| 17:26 | <||cw> pentium 1 was i586. pentium 2 was i686. from then on it became a brand only, and not an architecture. intel just invested too much into it as a brand.
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| 17:26 | <vagrantc> yes, i know the history :)
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| 17:27 | 5ium i686 was silly then too
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| 17:27 | <douglas_br> ||cw at the first time, only for labs schools - education - games - youtube
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| 17:27 | <||cw> huh. somehow I never made that connections.
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| 17:29 | <alkisg> --source-user would be plenty, and not that long to have a var name => but it means a different thing, now it's a user, not a regex
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| 17:29 | <||cw> douglas_br: if you want a quick test, boot up a libe-usb and try those things. ltsp should do a little better than that if you have gigabit lan, or a really slow USB drive
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| 17:29 | it's a user specification, which can be a regex.
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| 17:30 | <alkisg> (07:18:39 PM) vagrantc: there are plenty of shady certificate authorities that are "trusted" => I'm not sure what an exploit would involve. Someone being your internet provider? Having the ltsp server connect via wifi? Even so, can someone pretent to be github.com?
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| 17:31 | <||cw> common example: find's -name. it can take a name literal or a pattern. the parameter's name doesn't need to reflect this.
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| 17:32 | <alkisg> ||cw: sure, but the context matters too. pwmerge is about merging users and groups; shouldn't names be more precise there?
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| 17:33 | <||cw> a single specific name is also a valid regex...
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| 17:33 | <alkisg> *parameter names
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| 17:33 | <||cw> but yes, distinguishing users and group would be important
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| 17:33 | <alkisg> douglas_br: for my schools here, I bought i3's, so that they can last for years
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| 17:33 | <||cw> so --source would be too short.
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| 17:33 | <alkisg> A celeron would browse the web today, but what about tomorrow?
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| 17:34 | Usage: pwmerge [--sur=] [--sgr=] [--dur=] [--dgr=] [-l] [-q] sdir ddir mdir
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| 17:34 | Short names for all these wouldn't really make sense
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| 17:34 | *short options
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| 17:35 | -l --ltsp, and -q --quiet, sure, make sense
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| 17:35 | mdir is "merge dir"
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| 17:36 | <||cw> -s -g -S -G ? not as clear, but this is a common practice
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| 17:38 | that's all I mean, there's common practice for this
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| 17:38 | <douglas_br> alkisg you right
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| 17:39 | <||cw> heh, there's even an IEEE document for it https://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799/basedefs/V1_chap12.html
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| 17:39 | <alkisg> ||cw: oh sure, all the ltsp applets support both short and long options; it just was hard for this specific tool
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| 17:56 | <dgroos> Hi @alkisg do I need to --purge or just remove tigervnc-viewer? I have x11vnc already installed, what was the other to install?
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| 17:58 | <||cw> --purge just removes any system config files
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| 17:59 | <alkisg> dgroos: install xvnc4viewer first, purge tigervnc after that
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| 17:59 | <dgroos> thanks!
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| 17:59 | <alkisg> Otherwise removing the package would also remove epoptes
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| 18:10 | <dgroos> OK, and rebuilding the client image now...
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| 18:21 | Just test booted a client, broadcast screen not working.
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| 18:22 | [be back in 55 min, another class starts in 12 seconds...
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| 18:22 | <alkisg> OK
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| 18:22 | If you want to leave it open
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| 18:22 | I can have a look in 10'... or then
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| 18:22 | (with vnc)
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| 18:34 | <douglas_br> hello! I have 2 NIC in server. Sometimes it "lost" DNS on dnsmasq, if I reset server, come back normal
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| 18:43 | <alkisg> douglas_br: are you sure it loses dns and not e.g. nat?
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| 18:44 | What are the symptoms?
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| 18:49 | <douglas_br> hummmmm]
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| 18:52 | sometimes status dnsmasq does not show ip dns, only internal. After reboot status dnsmasq show 20x.xxx.xxx
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| 19:02 | <alkisg> douglas_br: do you mean this command? systemd-resolve --status
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| 19:04 | Are you using network manager? Is your network connection "For all users"?
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| 19:06 | Do you mean this? systemctl status dnsmasq
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| 19:14 | <douglas_br> alkisg you using network manager? Is your network connection "For all users"?
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| 19:15 | yes
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| 19:15 | alkisgDo you mean this? systemctl status dnsmasq
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| 19:15 | yes, exactlly
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| 19:18 | wait
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| 19:34 | <alkisg> douglas_br: dnsmasq isn't supposed to be updating its dns; it only happens once, when it starts
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| 19:35 | <dgroos> alkisg: just signed on to server, be back in a bit. Thanks for offering...
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| 19:42 | <alkisg> dgroos, if you see irclogs; your clients are using wayland
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| 19:42 | GDM3_CONF="WaylandEnable=false"
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| 19:42 | This in ltsp.conf disables it
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| 19:46 | <alkisg> dgroos, if you see irclogs; your clients are using wayland (09:42:49 PM) alkisg: GDM3_CONF="WaylandEnable=false" (09:42:53 PM) alkisg: This in ltsp.conf disables it
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| 19:46 | <dgroos> Oh! didn't know that they were.
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| 19:46 | <alkisg> And your server too
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| 19:46 | Let me just fix your server as well
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| 19:47 | <dgroos> double oops!
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| 19:48 | <alkisg> dgroos: so: log out, select "ubuntu" in login screen
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| 19:48 | Then log back in, and everything should now work
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| 19:48 | <dgroos> Will do, thought I had.
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| 19:49 | Awesome and Thanks! I'll check it out
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| 19:54 | * alkisg thought that ubuntu 18.04 still defaulted to xorg, no idea what caused your wayland sessions... | |
| 20:01 | <dgroos> Rebooted and when I selected the gear icon, "Ubuntu" was already selected. I re-selected it and booted.
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| 20:01 | Ran commands: env | grep XDG and
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| 20:02 | cat /etc/X11/default-display-manager and they both indicate gdm (GNOME)
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| 20:03 | booted clients and same result as before.
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| 20:04 | <dgroos> could it be that my computer is hooked up to display both a monitor and a promethean board?
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| 20:06 | reconnected w/sudo -i ready.
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| 20:59 | <dgroos> Ah! when I tested broadcast on an un-logged-in client it didn't work, but it does work on a client that's logged in!
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| 21:00 | And see that while broadcast to an client not logged in doesn't work, I can view/assist them via vnc.
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| 21:12 | <alkisg> dgroos: back
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| 21:12 | Do you still have any issues?
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| 21:15 | To see if wayland is running, I do `ps aux|grep -i wayland`
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| 21:15 | If there's Xwayland etc, then it's a wayland session
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| 21:16 | Both xorg and wayland use gdm, so checking /etc/X11/default-display-manager isn't appropriate
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| 21:16 | <dgroos> Thanks for that info!
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| 21:17 | The issue I'm trying to solve is that the clients can't ping 8.8.8.8 yet.
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| 21:17 | <alkisg> I'm about to head for bed; if you still have issues let's solve them quickly
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| 21:17 | That sounds related to NAT
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| 21:17 | Do you have NAT=1 in ltsp.conf?
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| 21:17 | <dgroos> I'll check!
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| 21:19 | it's commented out...
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| 21:19 | <alkisg> OK enable it and run `sudo systemctl restart ltsp`
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| 21:19 | <dgroos> :-) will do!
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| 21:20 | And thanks again :-D
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| 21:23 | And it works :-) G'night!
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| 21:23 | <alkisg> np; good night all
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