IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.libera.chat (webchat)
Channel log from 13 April 2011 (all times are UTC)
| 00:05 | <muppis> Could ntpdate forked to let initscripts to continue?
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| 00:05 | +be
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| 00:06 | <alkisg> That was the problem, that it was forked
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| 00:06 | Now that it's not longer forked, it works fine. But it just delays the boot process.
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| 00:07 | <muppis> Odd.
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| 00:08 | How much it delays? Few seconds?
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| 00:10 | <alkisg> Yeah just 2 secs
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| 00:12 | <muppis> Make me think is that really that big problem?
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| 00:15 | <alkisg> To waste 2 secs in the boot process? Not really
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| 00:16 | But to understand what's happening, and if it's a bug to fix it, would prevent it from happening on other places too
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| 00:16 | <muppis> That's true.
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| 01:38 | <alkisg> I reported the bug here: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/upstart/+bug/759568
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| 01:39 | Don't know if it's specific to upstart, but it should get the discussion going at least
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| 04:08 | Nick change: zz_evil_root -> evil_root | |
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| 04:10 | Nick change: zz_evil_root -> evil_root | |
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| 05:00 | <muppis> alkisg, thanks for the rdesktop. I'm stuck with microphones and webcams. :)
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| 05:00 | <elias_a> muppis: What is your project with mics and webcams?
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| 05:01 | <muppis> elias_a, I think there somekind of videoconference need to be.
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| 05:01 | <elias_a> muppis: Interesting!
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| 05:02 | muppis: Have you chosen the software yet?
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| 05:03 | <muppis> elias_a, looks like it webbased.
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| 05:04 | I'm hearing it first time.
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| 05:08 | <elias_a> muppis: Which one are we talking about?
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| 05:08 | Adobe Connect?
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| 05:08 | Openmeetings?
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| 05:12 | <muppis> www.isoverstas.fi
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| 05:15 | <elias_a> muppis: Do you have specs for their sw implementation?
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| 05:23 | <elias_a> muppis: Odd network. Really old school.
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| 06:11 | <_UsUrPeR_> morning all
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| 06:11 | <evil_root> morning
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| 06:18 | <elias_a> Good afternoon all you who walketh in a funny angle!
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| 06:23 | <_UsUrPeR_> hey all. Quick question about 11.04 LTSP and sound: I am not able to get any of my clients to output sound
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| 06:23 | has anybody had any luck with that?
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| 06:32 | <muppis> elias_a, uses Flash of video, but v4l2 is not supported by Flash.
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| 06:36 | <elias_a> muppis: Thanks. Could you tell me what the name of the service is?
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| 06:36 | muppis: I will ask for the contracts.
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| 06:36 | muppis: And check the details.
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| 06:37 | <muppis> elias_a, actually I don't know more than what is on that page.
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| 06:37 | I was checking does webcam work on that page, but it issue in Fals.. Flash.
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| 06:37 | <elias_a> muppis: Tell someone to call me. Already contacted National Board of Education on the subject.
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| 06:37 | <evil_root> sorry i am just now clueing in, but what kind of video conferencing are you looking for elias_a, if you dont mind me asking
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| 06:38 | <elias_a> evil_root: No prob.
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| 06:38 | We have 2 issues here...
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| 06:38 | '
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| 06:38 | 1) untechies who do not understand what compatibility means
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| 06:39 | and 2) the fact that there is this odd publicly funded program in Finland that keeps hidden stuff that is done with public funding.
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| 06:40 | I am going to kick their ass.
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| 06:40 | Bad.
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| 06:40 | They shall not forget it.
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| 06:40 | <evil_root> sorry to hear that man
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| 06:41 | over here in america we too have our own corruption, but thankfully our government changes every 4 years
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| 06:46 | <elias_a> Here as well...
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| 06:46 | <evil_root> i only with politics were open source
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| 06:46 | <elias_a> But I am a sort of expert in this country to know this stuff...
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| 06:47 | evil_root: We are going that way w the Finnish Green League
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| 06:47 | <evil_root> nice
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| 06:47 | good luck
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| 07:35 | <_UsUrPeR_> ok, so after further investigation, sound DOES work
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| 07:35 | however, it only works in the headphone jacks on our clients
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| 07:36 | some of our clients have a tiny speaker in them, and those speakers are not operational in 11.04 Beta
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| 07:36 | is there a kernel module or something that I need to add in order to get this working properly?
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| 07:41 | <evil_root> that probably depends on the client, but not too sure i have yet to play with 11.04, does it run better with the desktop update to the kernel?
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| 07:52 | <_UsUrPeR_> evil_root: not really.
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| 07:52 | none of the clients we have support the new desktop module
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| 07:52 | so it looks just like 10.04 did
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| 07:52 | at least, it's not supported in Beta
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| 07:52 | I expect to see some interesting stuff later on once it's in production
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| 07:53 | <evil_root> cool
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| 07:54 | sadly is my production ltsp environments stability is valued above anything, so once I build something and it works, we disable updates and well... never touch the images for years
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| 07:55 | so i dont get to play around much with beta
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| 07:55 | well at least when it comes to ubuntu
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| 07:55 | gentoo is a whole different story :)
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| 07:59 | <NeonLicht> I have two client environments, one for production and one for testing. I set which one each client should boot on lts.conf. But both are very stable since I use Debian, of course :)
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| 08:01 | <_UsUrPeR_> We try to test all our clients in beta in ordfer to ensure they are working
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| 08:01 | <evil_root> dont get me wrong, i have test environments and root and app servers and thin/fat clients dedicated to just testing, but the powers at be remember what it was like before ltsp5 and dispite me being able to show it working in a test environment, they see something work and they make me keep it that way
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| 08:02 | <_UsUrPeR_> that makes sense to me
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| 08:02 | good ole "if it ain't broke don't fix it"
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| 08:02 | <evil_root> exactly
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| 08:03 | I also want to take this moment to express how thankfull I am to the guys who developed ltsp5, it is amazing compared to the way ltsp used to be
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| 08:04 | <highvoltage> some people find it hard to see that :)
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| 08:04 | <Roasted_> I can't compare to how LTSP "used" to be as I just recently began using it, but I certainly concur with evil_root
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| 08:04 | We had a meeting yesterday to talk about issues with LTSP, as I believe it was expected to have problems like our previous 2 Windows based thin client vendors.
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| 08:04 | It was a short meeting, as I had nothing to say besides "the damn thing just plain works."
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| 08:07 | <dberkholz> the issues will be when your users can't find the Internet Explorer icon
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| 08:07 | <Roasted_> That is the unfortunate reality of that.
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| 08:08 | The "E" or the start button.
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| 08:08 | <dberkholz> thankfully most people have heard of firefox by now
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| 08:08 | <Roasted_> hahah, I would hope so.
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| 08:08 | At least in our environment we moved to Firefox 2 years ago as default.
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| 08:08 | Mostly because IE was incompatible with a lot of educational sites we use.
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| 10:13 | <Roasted_> Is there a way to unmount USB devices? I get an error on the clients saying they are not root.
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| 10:14 | <vagrantc> for thin clients? just wait 3 seconds and unplug them
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| 10:14 | they automatically unmount after inactivity
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| 10:16 | <Roasted_> I'm just an eject junkie so I always unmount things in nautilus the "proper" way.
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| 10:17 | when students do that they get the unable to unmount, you are not root error
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| 10:17 | I was just unplugging them on the fly as long as they were not transferring data at the time.
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| 10:17 | but a teacher asked me and I thought ehh let's see if there's an official answer.
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| 10:18 | <vagrantc> that's the official answer
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| 10:19 | <Roasted_> you the man :)
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| 10:19 | vagrantc, did you hear anything more in regard to the time thing you helped me with? Alkisg and I were talking last night and he seemed to get pretty deep into it, as if there was more to it than what was first thought.
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| 10:23 | <vagrantc> dunno
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| 10:23 | <Roasted_> I was just curious if you were filled in. It just seemed like there was much more to it and it was being worked on.
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| 11:31 | <stgraber> sorry for the new LTSP release ... I realize it's just a 6 chars diff from the previous one but it's pretty critical for Ubuntu and probably Debian (install would fail on != i386 without that fix)
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| 11:33 | <vagrantc> huh?
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| 11:33 | <stgraber> chmod -f doesn't always return 0
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| 11:33 | and I'm chmoding kernel + initrd + nbi
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| 11:33 | nbi only exists on i386
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| 11:33 | so as ltsp-update-kernels uses set -e, it'd fail and crash ltsp-build-client completely
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| 11:34 | the fix is just || true added to that line (only delta from 5.2.7 to 5.2.8)
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| 11:34 | <vagrantc> stgraber: speaking of kernel related things ... debian has dropped support for vmlinuz/initrd.img symlinks
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| 11:34 | <stgraber> vagrantc: ouch, I guess we should update LTSP to create these symlinks in /var/lib/tftpboot then ?
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| 11:34 | <vagrantc> don't know if ubuntu is planning on something similar ... but it basically will require revamping the pxelinux.cfg code
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| 11:35 | <vagrantc> which needs a considerable revamp
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| 11:35 | <stgraber> I'm not sure we want to generate a new pxelinux.cfg/default file everytime as people may like to modify them (or add other mac-specific config)
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| 11:35 | would probably be better to generate the symlinks ourselves
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| 11:36 | <vagrantc> well, people shouldn't modify them directly
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| 11:36 | because we already will overwrite their changes
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| 11:36 | any time a kernel update is run
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| 11:36 | <stgraber> AFAIK we don't overwrite a mac specific file
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| 11:37 | pxelinux.cfg/<mac address>
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| 11:37 | <vagrantc> ah, mac-specific, no.
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| 11:37 | <stgraber> and I'm guessing it's quite common to use that
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| 11:37 | so I'd rather generate the symlink when missing than have pxelinux.cfg point to the specific kernel image
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| 11:37 | <vagrantc> though i've got use-cases for needed vmlinuz-pae, vmlinuz-486, vmlinuz-686, vmlinuz-amd64
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| 11:38 | so i need something more flexible than we have anyways
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| 11:38 | <alkisg> pxe menus ftw! :D
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| 11:39 | <vagrantc> i can see a need for menus and the likes, here ...
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| 11:39 | i would like to keep a sane "default" symlink though.
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| 11:40 | <alkisg> Would that be the newest kernel? Or the last installed one?
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| 11:40 | <vagrantc> stgraber: essentially, the debian kernel team will provide a "linux-version" script which should sort versions properly.
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| 11:40 | alkisg: what i need is the newest kernel with certain features ... i.e. 486, 686, amd64, pae, etc.
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| 11:41 | alkisg: it's basically like dpkg --compare-versions, but with kernel versions.
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| 11:41 | well, you can give it a list of versions, and it sorts them.
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| 11:41 | <alkisg> I see. Well if it's a kernel script, can't we just bundle it to ltsp-common-functions or somewhere until it's widely available?
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| 11:41 | *shell script
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| 11:42 | <vagrantc> i haven't really put a lot of time into what to actually do.
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| 11:42 | but i do like the ability to support multiple kernel versions ... really useful for easy testing.
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| 11:42 | <alkisg> Support, how? If it's just "one default" symlink?
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| 11:43 | What could a user want from that default?
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| 11:43 | "select me the latest pae kernel"?
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| 11:43 | He can't even do that in grub...
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| 11:45 | <alkisg> Roasted: about that time sync thing, it appears that all processes spawned by initscripts get forcibly killed if they delay too much
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| 11:46 | I filed a bug against upstart for it, not sure if that's what causing the problem, but some ubuntu devs suggested I'd file it there
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| 11:46 | https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/upstart/+bug/759568
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| 11:46 | vagrantc: have you seen that time-sync problem in Debian?
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| 11:55 | <vagrantc> alkisg: if our scripts could generate a pxelinux sub-menu with all available versions, is what i was thinking
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| 11:55 | alkisg: haven't seen the time-sync problem directly, no
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| 11:55 | <alkisg> vagrantc: I believe it's not very hard to write such a script. But shouldn't that infrastructure be part of the syslinux package? (or at least some addon package)
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| 11:56 | The time-sync problem might be caused by upstart, then
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| 11:58 | <vagrantc> alkisg: but i've also only really run LTSP on fairly slow systems
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| 11:59 | <alkisg> Ah. I do have a debian chroot handy, I'll try it tomorrow there
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| 11:59 | <vagrantc> alkisg: yeah, we could try and get syslinux to incorporate a menu-generation script
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| 11:59 | <alkisg> Sounds good
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| 12:00 | <vagrantc> i looked at the extlinux code and it doesn't really look very reuseable
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| 12:00 | we would really need a generic script capable of doing some fairly stupid things.
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| 12:01 | i.e. different path in the tftp dir from the installed dir ... i.e. /var/lib/tftpboot vs. /srv/tftp vs. /opt/ltsp/i386/boot
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| 12:01 | <alkisg> AFAIK pxelinux supports sourcing configuration files with relative paths
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| 12:02 | So e.g. /opt/ltsp/default, which would source all the subdir snippets
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| 12:03 | Erm, tftp/ltsp/default, not opt
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| 12:04 | We need multiple kernels and multiple chroots. Do we need interoperability with other packages?
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| 12:04 | <vagrantc> gets to be an adventure
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| 12:05 | <vagrantc> alkisg: i do like to add things like memtest and there's some really useful tools shipped with syslinux these days
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| 12:05 | <alkisg> Is there a better design for this than the lame grub.d?
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| 12:06 | <vagrantc> it would be interesting if it were written well enough to specify your own .d directory
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| 12:06 | <alkisg> Multiple .d directories? Where does that help, compared to a single .d directory?
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| 12:07 | A package can still drop multiple files there...
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| 12:07 | <vagrantc> i guess an /etc/pxelinux.cfg.d would be interesting
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| 12:07 | alkisg: currently, /etc/grub.d assumes a lot of things, like you've got a hard disk, for example.
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| 12:08 | alkisg: so we'd want the ability to specify an alternate .d directory and not make those assumptions
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| 12:08 | <alkisg> Agreed (for the pxelinux.cfg.d). But it would have to allow scripts too, not just configuration directives, I don't think directives would fit any need
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| 12:09 | <vagrantc> and it's hard to figure out how to handle cross-chroot things ... and who would "win" the war of defaults
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| 12:10 | but i really like the /etc/grub.d style of things, in some ways ... mainly that a package can drop in it's configuration file and it "just works"
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| 12:10 | <alkisg> Also simplicity is some times preferred to flexibility :)
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| 12:12 | <vagrantc> the main problem with /etc/grub.d, which sabotaged the ability to have network-bootable grub, is that several of the scripts that get dropped in there assume that you have a disk and break the whole thing.
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| 12:12 | so you're left with generating your own grub.cfg
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| 12:12 | and update-grub fails every time.
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| 12:13 | <alkisg> What would be an "equivalent problem" in pxelinux.cfg.d ?
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| 12:14 | <vagrantc> alkisg: well, if stupid scripts end up getting dropped in there, we'd have problems... but i guess our assumption could be network-based, since it's pxelinux.cfg.d
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| 12:14 | but then most scripts aren't going to knwo about it
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| 12:14 | so they won't drop snippets in there
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| 12:14 | at least, not for a while
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| 12:15 | also, i'm not sure where it should live ... in each individual chroot, where you'd want to specify chroot-specific settings, or on the server, where it controls all the chroots
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| 12:16 | i worked to move as much configuration into the chroot as possible, so you could build your chroot, move it to another server, run ltsp-update-sshkeys and be done.
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| 12:16 | <alkisg> Well, in the other server, that port might be in use
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| 12:16 | <vagrantc> but that has complexities with multi-chroot environments
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| 12:16 | alkisg: bah. that was before the NBD insanity :)
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| 12:16 | <alkisg> Hehe
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| 12:16 | It'll be fixed again in the future with the IANA assigned port
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| 12:16 | <vagrantc> yes!
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| 12:18 | <alkisg> The server will surely need some configuration, at least to be able to find those chroots
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| 12:19 | So it's either "just server" or "both server + chroots"
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| 12:19 | And it doesn't always have to be chroots
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| 12:20 | I may want to just drop an nbd image + a kernel somewhere, with no chroot
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| 12:20 | <vagrantc> crazy talk
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| 12:20 | although that's really just a chroot that happens to be inside a file
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| 12:21 | <alkisg> Yes, but the "get the etc directory from the chroot" doesn't apply there
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| 12:21 | i.e. run_parts $CHROOT/etc/pxelinux.cfg/d/*
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| 12:22 | <vagrantc> sure
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| 12:22 | well, it could.
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| 12:22 | <alkisg> If it's going to be generic enough, it should e.g. allow me to netboot an extracted live cd
| |
| 12:22 | It's still just a squashfs image, but I don't have control over its etc there
| |
| 12:26 | * alkisg can't think of anything better than grub.d, currently | |
| 12:29 | <Gadi> are you guys suggesting presenting the user with a menu to choose what kernel they want?
| |
| 12:30 | for real?
| |
| 12:30 | <vagrantc> Gadi: it could be a hidden menu, but yes.
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| 12:31 | ideally set sane defaults as much as possible, but some things are impossible to detect.
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| 12:32 | <knipwim> can't this already be done with pxelinux?
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| 12:32 | <Gadi> so, you are gonna tell a user that if the boot fails, they should expose the hidden menu and choose the option for their architecture?
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| 12:32 | for real?
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| 12:32 | <vagrantc> Gadi: no.
| |
| 12:32 | * Gadi checks to see if today is April 1 | |
| 12:33 | <vagrantc> i am saying we need to have flexibility to run debian-installer, ubuntu-installer, debian LTSP, ubuntu LTSP, memtest, etc. and set up a generic tool to configure menus for all that.
| |
| 12:34 | because there are some environments that do all that.
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| 12:34 | <vagrantc> Gadi: obviously autodetection should work for a lot of things, but some things are not auto-detectable.
| |
| 12:35 | * Gadi wonders what environments you have where you want to expose users to an option to run debian-installer | |
| 12:35 | <Gadi> but, I understand ur motivation
| |
| 12:35 | :)
| |
| 12:35 | <vagrantc> well, if i wasn't out sick, i'd be walking people through it all day today
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| 12:36 | <Gadi> ur sick?
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| 12:36 | * vagrantc nods | |
| 12:36 | <Gadi> a refuah shleimah
| |
| 12:36 | :)
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| 12:36 | <vagrantc> a nice relaxing time here in #ltsp to get me well.
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| 12:38 | <Gadi> seems to me a .d structure for what you want would be a bit annoying, tho
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| 12:38 | you would have to delete/move files whenever you want to disable an option
| |
| 12:38 | as opposed to commenting it out
| |
| 12:39 | actually, if I were you, I'd want a .d directory and then a file with a manifest
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| 12:39 | so I could quickly comment out pointers to files
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| 12:39 | <vagrantc> hmmm..
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| 12:40 | <Gadi> or simply a config file with an include directive
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| 12:40 | where you can specify multiple includes
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| 12:41 | and it simply sources the included file or directory of files
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| 12:44 | <alkisg> Wouldn't it be "one file per package", mostly?
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| 12:44 | I.e. one for ltsp, that detects ltsp chroots + applies whatever config (BOOTPROMPT_OPTIONS etc) the user wants
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| 12:44 | One for memtest, one the user put there to netboot an .iso, etc etc
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| 12:45 | <vagrantc> alkisg: that sounds like one goal i'd have
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| 12:45 | <alkisg> And some /etc/default/pxelinuxsomething (like grub) for easily editable user defined options
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| 12:45 | Timeout, default entry etc etc
| |
| 12:45 | Show the menu or not..
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| 12:45 | * vagrantc wonders how likely it'd be accepted cross-distro | |
| 12:46 | <alkisg> If not, can't the other distros bundle it as part of their ltsp packages?
| |
| 12:46 | <vagrantc> suppose so
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| 12:48 | <alkisg> Btw, we also have a configuration problem with ltsp... a person would need to declare ARCH in update-kernels.conf, in ltsp-update-image.conf, in ltsp-build-client.conf etc etc...
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| 12:51 | <vagrantc> yeah
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| 12:51 | at one point i proposed an ltsp-common.conf or something like that
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| 12:53 | <Gadi> I wouldnt worry about that
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| 12:54 | l-u-k does all chroots and doesnt take an arch
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| 12:54 | l-b-c should be passed the arch of what you want to build anyway
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| 12:54 | <alkisg> Why?
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| 12:54 | Suppose one has amd64 server, and a single i386 chroot
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| 12:55 | Also there's ltsp-chroot, we'd need another configuration file for that too :D
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| 12:55 | (not sure if we're sourcing one or not)
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| 12:55 | <Gadi> imho you can *optionally* fix it in a file
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| 12:56 | <vagrantc> alkisg: didn't you update ltsp-chroot to pick the first if the default isn't available?
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| 12:56 | <Gadi> so you never have to bother typing it
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| 12:56 | <alkisg> vagrantc: yup, but that fix didn't propagate to the other tools like ltsp-update-image
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| 12:56 | I think some refactoring would be nice
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| 12:56 | <vagrantc> sure would
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| 12:56 | <Gadi> but, maybe they should be interactive otherwise (if there's more than 1)
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| 12:56 | <alkisg> To extract common code + configuration options
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| 13:10 | <vagrantc> stgraber, alkisg : for reference, the announcement to drop the symlink stuff is in: http://lists.debian.org/debian-kernel/2011/04/threads.html on the topic "Dropping unversioned kernel links/copies; adding linux-version command Ben Hutchings"
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| 18:29 | <matthewd_> Getting "Error: failed to connect to NBD server" with Ubuntu 10.10
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| 18:29 | It loads the Ubuntu logo, looks like everythings good, but never fully loads. Just sits at the logo
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| 18:31 | nbd-server is installed on my server
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| 18:35 | Got this error while trying to restart nbd-server: ** (process:15954): WARNING **: Could not parse config file: Could not open config file /etc/nbd-server/config. ** Message: Nothing to do! Bye!
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| 20:18 | <alkisg> matthewd_: you're not supposed to restart nbd-server, as it runs from inetd
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| 20:18 | For the same reason, it's normal to have that message about "could not parse config file", since it's not used
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| 20:50 | <afz0r> Hello there, so I'm using LTSP-3... I know I should be using LTSP-5, however that is not an option, I'm setting LTSP up in my workplace and the order to use version 3 "comes from above", and the guy in charge of the project won't change his mind about it.
| |
| 20:50 | With that in mind, could I still get some help here?
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| 20:51 | <alkisg> 3? Not even 4?
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| 20:51 | <afz0r> alkisg, indeed
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| 20:51 | <alkisg> You can of course ask, but most people here probably never seen that version
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| 20:53 | <afz0r> Alright then, well, currently I'm stuck with PXELINUX. It doesn't seem to find any init files at pxelinux.cfg. and it just dumps me to a boot prompt
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| 20:53 | Maybe I should switch to Etherboot or something? I will if it's simpler
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| 20:57 | <alkisg> pxelinux searches for a file named pxelinux.cfg/default, check if you have one in your tftp
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| 20:57 | Or, enable tftp logging on the server to see which file it asks for
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| 20:58 | <afz0r> yes, I have that file, I also made symlinks to files named after my subnet
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| 20:59 | I'll pastebin it
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| 21:01 | <alkisg> Which tftp server are you using? tftpd-hpa? If so, put --verbose in its command line, so that you see the files that pxelinux asks for
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| 21:02 | E.g. it might be searching at a different path
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| 21:05 | <afz0r> Lookie http://pastebin.com/8DezFKLk
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| 21:06 | tftp-hpa 0.49
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| 21:08 | <alkisg> I'd suggest you ask this in the #syslinux channel, maybe there's a syntax error in your file and if falls back to the default "linux" kernel
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| 21:09 | Try renaming your label from "linux" to "ltsp"
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| 21:09 | <afz0r> I'll do that! Thanks, I'm also checking the TFTPD logs now.
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| 21:15 | btw, unrelated to this, does anybody here know what might be wrong if dhcpd seems to work in a very hit-and-miss manner? Sometimes it does appear to lease ips to clients, other times they don't actually catch an ip and default to 0.0.0.0, even though the logs clearly state dhcpd did infact lease an ip normally
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| 21:18 | <alkisg> <joke mode on>Which dhcp3-server version? 0.1? Maybe it had bug which were solved in the meantime?</joke mode off>
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| 21:19 | Btw, why tftpd-hpa 0.49? The current version is 5.something...
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| 21:19 | Is the server required to have old software too?
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| 21:20 | <afz0r> haha, isc-dhcpd-V3.0.5-RedHat, server is virtual
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| 21:20 | the hardware on the host computer isn't very old
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| 21:22 | <afz0r> btw, I'm checking out some pxelinux boot-time screencaps, and there might be a problem with the netmask clients are getting
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| 21:23 | clients are getting a 0.0.0.0 netmask, always. The server's netmask is 255.255.255.0
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| 21:23 | could that be an issue?
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| 21:24 | <alkisg> It sure needs fixing
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| 21:24 | You can easily verify it with an ipxe/gpxe/etherboot cd / floppy / usb stick
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| 21:24 | Boot the client with it, press ctrl+b to get a command prompt, and write "dhcp net0" and "config" to see the list of what dhcpd sent to the client
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| 21:25 | <afz0r> okay!
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| 22:34 | <elias_a> muppis: Please ask about the v4l2 problem on Educoss-list. I remember at least that Asmo and I have been fighting with same problem.
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| 22:39 | <muppis> elias_a, I know the problem and I know how to get it fixed. Fix just didn't work yesterday as it little pain in ... to get it wworking.
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| 00:00 | --- Thu Apr 14 2011 | |