IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.libera.chat (webchat)
Channel log from 26 April 2008 (all times are UTC)
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| 07:39 | <ace_suares> !seen ogra
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| 07:39 | <ltspbot> ace_suares: ogra was last seen in #ltsp 20 hours, 25 minutes, and 28 seconds ago: <ogra> thats why we do LTS :)
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| 07:42 | <ogra> ace_suares, what a wonderful bug :)
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| 07:42 | * ogra forwards a hug from the whole ubuntu disro team | |
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| 07:50 | <ace_suares> hi ogra thx
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| 07:50 | this is the upgrade to fast bug :-) ?
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| 07:50 | <ogra> yeah
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| 07:50 | the whole team loves it
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| 07:50 | <ace_suares> it is already decided... 'won't fix ' :-)))))
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| 07:50 | <ogra> hehe
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| 07:50 | <ace_suares> :-)))
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| 07:51 | I'ts really amazing tough.
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| 07:51 | <Q-FUNK> ogra: sober again? :)
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| 07:51 | <ace_suares> Did you see a new bug ? Less wonderfull
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| 07:51 | btw CONGRATULATIONS !
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| 07:51 | very happy that you made another release.
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| 07:52 | ogra: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/222513
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| 07:53 | <ace_suares> hmmm ltsp-update-image wants a 64bit /opt/ltsp....
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| 07:53 | Error: chroot /opt/ltsp/amd64 doesn't exist.
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| 07:53 | altough I Installed 32-bit clients
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| 07:54 | <ogra> it defaults to the host arch, use -a with it
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| 07:54 | <Q-FUNK> on a 64-bit server?
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| 07:54 | <ogra> -a i386 should do
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| 07:54 | <Q-FUNK> right
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| 07:54 | good to know
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| 07:54 | <ace_suares> that's not in the man page :-P
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| 07:54 | <Q-FUNK> bug the man page on LP :)
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| 07:55 | <ogra> yeah
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| 07:55 | its in the help output
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| 07:55 | seems the manpages are behind
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| 07:55 | can be fixed for 8.04.1
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| 07:56 | <ace_suares> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/222524
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| 07:58 | ogra: I did ltsp-update-image but won't help.
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| 07:58 | On the thin client, rofs can not be mounted, /root/etc can not me mounted (no such dir),...
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| 07:58 | <ogra> did you recreate the client chroot as usualy on upgrades ?
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| 07:59 | *usual
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| 07:59 | * leio idly notes that everything broke with that on his work machine | |
| 07:59 | <leio> btw, what fast bug. Linkie? :)
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| 07:59 | <ogra> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/221918
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| 08:05 | * ogra watches debian dropping ltsp | |
| 08:05 | <Q-FUNK> ?!
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| 08:05 | <yanu> ace_suares: did this happend for real? or is it just a joke? (i guess a joke)
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| 08:05 | <ace_suares> wtf !?
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| 08:05 | <laga> ogra: ?
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| 08:05 | <ogra> ace_suares, only temporary :)
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| 08:05 | <ace_suares> yanu: well, the Tim use case is of course fake :-)
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| 08:05 | ogra: phew...
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| 08:06 | <ogra> apparently you cant change the arches a package is built for in debian unless you remove the package completely first
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| 08:06 | <ace_suares> yanu: but it is kind of hard to get work with linux system adminsitration since there is nothng to do
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| 08:06 | <ogra> just dont tell your customers :P
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| 08:06 | <ace_suares> Just installng single computer with wixp takes 6 hrs or so, with ubuntu, maybe an hour and a half tops
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| 08:07 | So yeah, that's not good for those who earn money with system adminsitration...
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| 08:07 | ogra: oh, that makes sense.
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| 08:08 | ogra: how can I log bootup thin client :? I am tryin g to make a screen shot with my phone now, doesn't work either
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| 08:09 | <ogra> ace_suares, suso mv /opt/ltsp/i386 /opt/ltsp/i386.gutsy && sudo ltsp-build-client --arch i386
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| 08:10 | that doesnt work ?
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| 08:10 | *sudo
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| 08:10 | <Q-FUNK> ogra: is whoever that filed this bug for real?
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| 08:10 | * ace_suares filed that bug :-) | |
| 08:11 | <ogra> Q-FUNK, yes, i'm talking to him, his LP name is not much different from his nick
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| 08:11 | ;)
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| 08:12 | <Q-FUNK> ace_suares: you filed the bug against the wrong distro. it should have been filed against CIO Bogux.
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| 08:12 | <ace_suares> ogra: hey I attached a screen shot. Gotta go now, if you have a sec, look at it. This happened after standard upgrade, and ltsp-update-image didn't do anythinh either...
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| 08:12 | CIO Bogux ? Linkplease :-)
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| 08:13 | <Q-FUNK> no, really. let the guy do his upgrade in 2 hours and play tetris for the rest of the week.
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| 08:13 | it's not a bug, it's a feature. filing bugs likes these is abusing LP.
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| 08:13 | <laga> oh noes! someone made a joke and now the launchpads are exploding!
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| 08:14 | (warning: headache-induced sarcasm ;))
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| 08:15 | <Q-FUNK> or filing it agaist sillyx linux might have been a good choice.
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| 08:24 | <ace_suares> I proposed a set of solutions, but the distro that has all those solutions built in is not on launchpad :-(
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| 08:27 | <ogra> ace_suares, ltsp-update-image will only compress a new image
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| 08:27 | did you rebuild the chroot with ltsp-build-client before ?
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| 08:36 | <ace_suares> yeah before the upgrade i did that. I *had* too, because it installed 64bit clients, remember :-P
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| 08:36 | * ace_suares hands aspirin to laga | |
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| 08:39 | <ace_suares> shall I just rebuilt opt/ltsp? Let's try that.
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| 08:40 | <Nubae> hey, what's the best way to transfer users from one install to another, just copy relevant shadow, group, passwd?
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| 08:40 | <ogra> ace_suares, thats what i'm talking about since 40min :)
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| 08:41 | <ace_suares> awww... missed that
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| 08:41 | o see it now
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| 08:41 | o=i
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| 08:41 | <ogra> <ogra> ace_suares, sudo mv /opt/ltsp/i386 /opt/ltsp/i386.gutsy && sudo ltsp-build-client --arch i386
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| 08:41 | :)
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| 08:42 | <ace_suares> ah did a rm -r /opt/ltsp already :-)
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| 08:43 | Have you not had any problems after the upgrade ?
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| 08:43 | <leio> doesn't work at all for me. I'm probably just an odd case there though.
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| 08:43 | <ogra> not with the recomended method, no
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| 08:44 | <ace_suares> ehhhh what is the recommended method... isn't that update-manager ?
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| 08:44 | <ogra> leio, see above, did you run ltsp-build-client ?
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| 08:44 | <leio> yes.
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| 08:44 | <ogra> ace_suares, for ltsp ? no ... "sudo mv /opt/ltsp/i386 /opt/ltsp/i386.gutsy && sudo ltsp-build-client --arch i386"
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| 08:44 | <leio> after that I have an image that boots till something, and then I end up with consoles where I can only enter stuff with no feedback. No login, no terminal, no X, no nothing.
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| 08:44 | <ogra> ltsp was never integrated with update-manager (yet)
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| 08:45 | leio, and it worked in gutsy ?
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| 08:45 | <ace_suares> ogra: hmmmm that bugs me tough
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| 08:45 | ogra: oooooh
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| 08:45 | <leio> well, yes. I did it on hardy 5 days before gold though
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| 08:45 | <ace_suares> ogra: good to know. These things are 'weirdness'...
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| 08:46 | <ogra> leio, where exactly does the boot stop ? do you get a login prompt ? or does it drop you to a busybox shell ?
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| 08:46 | <leio> i get absolutely no prompt of any kind
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| 08:46 | as said above
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| 08:47 | <ogra> you said you see consoles
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| 08:47 | so you end up with a black screen and flashing cursor on the top left ?
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| 08:48 | <leio> something like that, yes
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| 08:48 | <ace_suares> ogra: works perfectly now.
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| 08:48 | <ogra> do you get to a login prompt hittin alt+f1 ?
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| 08:48 | ace_suares, good
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| 08:48 | <ace_suares> ogra: I think canonical should find a way to let me know when i do an upgrade, the I need to do something
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| 08:48 | <ogra> i will try some u-m integration with intrepid
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| 08:49 | <ace_suares> manually too...
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| 08:49 | <ogra> the prob with the chroot is that there are to many things set at build time
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| 08:49 | <ace_suares> ogra: inthese cases i am sorry I can not find the time nor have the skills to do such integration for you
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| 08:49 | ogra: and the only thing i can do is just bug you for it :-(
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| 08:49 | ogra: thx for being here !!!
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| 08:50 | <ogra> upgrading these things would become a huge messy upgrade.sh script or so would be hard to maintain, but i can probably hook something into u-m that forces the new build of the chroot
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| 08:50 | or at least notifies the user to do so manually
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| 08:52 | leio, do you get to a login prompt hitting alt+f1 ?
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| 08:52 | on a booted client
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| 08:52 | * ogra suspects the client boots fine but has an issue with the X driver or setup | |
| 08:53 | <leio> ogra: no.
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| 08:53 | <ogra> thats a standard ubuntu hardy ?
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| 08:54 | <leio> that was an upgrade to hardy from gutsy about a week before official release
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| 08:54 | <ogra> hmm
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| 08:54 | what kind of clients do you have attached there ?
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| 08:55 | <leio> hmm, 1.5 weeks prior I guess, as it was Thursday or Friday, but not last week, so yeah.
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| 08:55 | Was just one ThinCan DBE61 or DBE62
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| 08:55 | <laga> ogra: maybe my 'oversight' in the mythbuntu plugin caused this? (i haven't been following the conversation)
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| 08:55 | <ogra> oh
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| 08:55 | <ace_suares> ogra: notification woudl be best
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| 08:55 | <ogra> laga, hmm, that might be, right, i totally forgot about that one and it only existed for one day
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| 08:56 | <ace_suares> ogra: rebuild the chroot, is good but please take care of arch issues and local mirrors (!)
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| 08:56 | <ogra> laga, but thin can also means likely broken X driver, since it has issues with the geode/amd driver
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| 08:56 | <ace_suares> ogra: I closed the bug. https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/222513
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| 08:56 | <ogra> leio, ^^^
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| 08:56 | <laga> ogra: right, i rememeber the discussion here
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| 08:56 | <ace_suares> thanx bye ogra !
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| 08:56 | <ogra> leio, Q-FUNK knows what to do with these thingies
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| 08:57 | <Nubae> leio: I had a similar problem to yours, being dropped to busy box without any reason... the answer was my gateway was plugged directly into the hub, and even though dhcp server is turned off in it, conflicted with ubuntu's dhcp
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| 08:57 | <ogra> ace_suares, thanks for pointing to it, i'll put up an upgrade wikipage
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| 08:57 | Nubae, he isnt dropped to busybox
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| 08:57 | <leio> ogra: I disable X server in lts.conf.
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| 08:57 | <Nubae> ah
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| 08:57 | <ogra> and there are known issues with the thin can graphics cards
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| 08:57 | <leio> Nubae: I don't see any busybox, I could have debugged something successfully if I would
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| 08:57 | <Q-FUNK> hm?
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| 08:58 | <ogra> Q-FUNK, thin can on hardy ?
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| 08:58 | <Q-FUNK> yeah, what about it?
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| 08:58 | <ogra> ThinCan DBE61 or DBE62, seems leio doesnt get his to work
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| 08:58 | <Q-FUNK> needs an xorg.conf with the Device declared, then it works
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| 08:59 | X core itself doesn't appear to know anything about our driver
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| 08:59 | <leio> I didn't get any login shell when lts.conf had the xserver VT configured to shell
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| 08:59 | <ogra> hmm, probably usplash gets in the way here
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| 08:59 | <Q-FUNK> right and that I'm not sure why, since LTSP uses Xorg -configure to generate xorg.conf and that correctly produces an xorg.conf that uses "geode"
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| 08:59 | * ogra cant remember having usplash added in the nbi images though | |
| 09:00 | <Nubae> hmmm, so these thin cans, seem quite nice thin clients, are they expensive?
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| 09:00 | <leio> anyhow, I would need to upgrade host to hardy final and build the image again and see. Not exactly a priority anymore, as the reason I did all this was to ensure things work before Hardy is out. Now Hardy is out and Q-FUNK got things tested at home and nothing we can do about anything anyhow before 8.04.1 really
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| 09:00 | <Q-FUNK> Nubae: the prices appear at the bottom of thincan.com's product info
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| 09:00 | <ogra> Nubae, they are cheap and good, but sadly use the wrong graphics chipset
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| 09:00 | <Nubae> damn, they are really cheap
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| 09:01 | <Q-FUNK> leio: we can still produce patches to fix whatever issue is remaining and have ogra upload them to proposed-updates
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| 09:01 | <leio> That is, LTSP not working on my edubuntu at office after upgrade to Hardy and fresh ltsp image build had nothing to do with xorg-server
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| 09:01 | <ogra> leio, well, getting 8.04.1 tested :) so it surely works :)
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| 09:01 | <Q-FUNK> ogra: I reall wonder why -amd successfully autodetects our hardware inside an LTSP chroot, but -geode doesn't
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| 09:02 | <leio> ogra: wrong graphics chipset....?
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| 09:02 | <ogra> leio, oh, what was wrong
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| 09:02 | <leio> ogra: huh? ;p
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| 09:02 | <ogra> leio, well, upstreams support for the driver isnt very good
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| 09:02 | <ace_suares> Q-Funk: cool products ! I've resaerch thin clients for 4 years and never came along this products.
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| 09:02 | <Q-FUNK> thanks :)
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| 09:02 | <ogra> leio, i mean with the setup that didnt have graphics issues
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| 09:02 | <Q-FUNK> something for every budget, mainly
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| 09:03 | <Nubae> the gigabit thin terminals look great
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| 09:03 | <ogra> i'm still sad you dropped the beautiful can lookalike case
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| 09:03 | <Q-FUNK> ogra: you mean before the rename, when -amd pretty much worked like magic on anything except ION 603?
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| 09:03 | <ace_suares> yeah, that was a neat design.
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| 09:04 | <Q-FUNK> the round can costed too much to produce, unfortunately
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| 09:04 | <leio> ogra: Q-FUNK took over testing after I gave up on LTSP on my edubuntu due to it taking too much time and continued with other work tasks. Then I just helped with ideas what could be wrong and a backported libddc patch
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| 09:04 | <ogra> Q-FUNK, no i mean that it was necessary that gadi hired someone to take care of the issues instead of having proper upstrea support for it
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| 09:04 | <leio> what issues and what someone?
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| 09:04 | <ogra> leio, ah
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| 09:05 | <Q-FUNK> leio: we'd need to setup an actual LTSP server on the intranet and have it serve boot payloads to hosts whose MAC address fits the Artec namespace.
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| 09:05 | ogra: ah yes, those mysterious BIOS issues.
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| 09:05 | leio: the driver locking the hardware dead on some BIOS
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| 09:06 | <leio> the upstream is the BIOS vendor there, not us.
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| 09:06 | <Q-FUNK> no
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| 09:06 | GSW and Award are the problem
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| 09:07 | that and X core "upgrading" from vm86 (which always worked flawlessly) to x86emu (which seems to be a reall load of crap that broke many drivers)
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| 09:07 | <leio> remember that Hardy ship with 1.4.0.90 with patches, that still uses vm86.
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| 09:07 | afaik.
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| 09:07 | <ogra> leio, issues --> well, usually i doesnt happen that X core chnges stuff without te drivers being fixed alongside ... that didnt happen for -amd in gutsy and caused todays stuation ... nothing anyone can predict but from a distributor POV its hard to handle
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| 09:07 | <Q-FUNK> no
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| 09:07 | not just for amd
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| 09:08 | until bartman's patches were applied, X also was messy on my old thinkpad's siliconmotion chip, for instance
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| 09:08 | <ogra> leio, someone -> symbiont (gadis company) hired an X developer to look after the -amd driver issues that showed up in gutsy
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| 09:08 | <leio> oh ok, missed the gadi and symbiont connection, sorry
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| 09:08 | <ogra> since upstream was dead/uninterested in fixing it
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| 09:09 | in that view thin can uses the wrong graphics chipset (which is indeed not thin cans fault)
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| 09:10 | <Q-FUNK> ogra: mind you, those were all X core issues. the same driver works rock-solid on older X
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| 09:10 | <ogra> indeed
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| 09:11 | <Q-FUNK> the culprit really is the X core team. too many bold redesigns and leaving non-mainstream drivers in the dust
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| 09:11 | <leio> hmm, why did I see vm86 symbols in backtraces in gentoo 1.4.0.90, but apparently things use x86emu on ubuntu, having caused these freezes until patches were applied. Does that mean ubuntu is grabbing x86emu patches?
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| 09:11 | <ogra> and it could have happened to vias *chrome chips as well ... with the difference that there upstream is apparently more active
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| 09:11 | <leio> *chrome upstream did not fix these xorg issues...
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| 09:12 | <ogra> well, my unichrome and openchrome boards dont have any issues
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| 09:12 | <Q-FUNK> leio: debian and ubuntu switched to x86emu by default, because they want x86-32 code to run on x86-64 as needed
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| 09:12 | <leio> then you didn't hit the problematic path between xorg-server and BIOS communication I guess
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| 09:13 | <ogra> (apart from the fact that i have to use different drivers for them that mutually exclude each other)
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| 09:13 | .oO(oh why is X such a mess)
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| 09:13 | <leio> Q-FUNK: eh? ;p I run x86-32 X using code just fine on x86-64
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| 09:14 | with vm86
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| 09:14 | <Q-FUNK> beats me
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| 09:15 | that's the reason that was claimed to me to justify the switch
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| 09:16 | ogra: I sort-of understand Jordan keeping his "not my department" attitude. the geode driver was never at fault. all of bartman's patches were to fix a bad x86 emulator running in the X core.
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| 09:16 | even worse is how the coreboot team repeatedly offered to comaintain x86emu. apparently, X core never took them on their offer.
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| 09:17 | "not made here" attitude.
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| 09:17 | <ogra> Q-FUNK, well, there is a known issue with a known fix and obviously many distros wont allow new upstream but a .1 release ... refusing .1 just hurts your users
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| 09:17 | <Q-FUNK> for this one, indeed, I agree with you.
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| 09:18 | you'll notice that when I was in charge of releases, we have manhy small incremental releases, whose changes were easy to track.
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| 09:18 | to me, this is the same bullshit as sabdfl's idea that every piece of free software in the universe should release on the same date. BAD idea!
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| 09:19 | <laga> ack
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| 09:19 | <ogra> when did he say that ?
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| 09:19 | <laga> i was under the impression he implied that distros should release on the same date and ship identical versions of software, too
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| 09:20 | <Q-FUNK> right now, we can track changes to one or two pieces of software and notice regressions caused by those two.
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| 09:20 | can you imagine having to track regressions over a dozen of major software, because they all released on the same week, and figure out whether bug X is caused by the new gtk2 or by some crap in e.g. firefox or OOo?
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| 09:20 | <laga> ogra: planet.ubuntu.com today or yesterday
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| 09:20 | <ogra> well, kde switched to 6 month cycles, fedora did
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| 09:20 | <Q-FUNK> ogra: read the planet. sabdfl said many time that he'd like the main software (kde, gnome, ooo, kernel, X) to release accoridng to the exact same chedule.
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| 09:20 | <ogra> cant be that wrong if so many follow us
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| 09:21 | its enough if every upstram tracks its own issues
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| 09:21 | <leio> that'd be some major drag and pain to distributions that don't lag behind 6 months at a time in stable tree
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| 09:21 | <ogra> well, you dont have to as a distro
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| 09:22 | <laga> 6 months isn't long enough, IMHO. (but with that attitude, i should probably go use debian stable)
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| 09:22 | <ogra> but it would make life easier for everyone if upstreams had predictable release schedules
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| 09:22 | <Q-FUNK> in theory, nice that everyone upgrades to the latest and greatest at the same time. in practice, nightmare to track regressions when a zillion of libraries all update on the same day.
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| 09:22 | <ogra> and most helpful indeed if everyone lined up
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| 09:22 | <Q-FUNK> they do. they have schedules, but those schedules don't match ubuntu cycles.
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| 09:23 | <laga> when do these projects actually release? two weeks before the ubuntu release or earlier? is that helpful to get all the bugs ironed out?
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| 09:23 | <Q-FUNK> the only 2 pieces of software that should have joint release cycles are kde and gnome. then, no desktop user can say that it was left out because distro X bases its releases around DE X schedule.
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| 09:24 | currently, yes. gnoem tends to release during the freeze of ubuntu+1
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| 09:24 | <laga> hum. i guess that works because there are pre-release snapshots of gnome in testing
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| 09:24 | <Q-FUNK> the real answer is not for the world to accomodate sabdfl. the answer is sabdfl shifting the ubuntu release schedule by 3 months, so that releases have the time to stabilize.
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| 09:25 | * ogra pats poor vagrantc on the back ... no ltsp in debian right now ... | |
| 09:26 | <Q-FUNK> but for gnome, kde and xfce to have similar calendars would indeed help.
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| 09:26 | <leio> GNOME has a roughly 7 months preannounced ~6 months cycles, I knew that Ubuntu bases things off of that
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| 09:27 | just recently things were shifted a bit earlier with a week or two shorter or longer cycle for GNOME to accommodate GUADEC happening at the right point of the GNOME cycle
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| 09:27 | <Q-FUNK> then kernel and X could have a joitn shcedule too (they are all drivers), but with a 3-motnh offset to the shcedule for DE
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| 09:28 | <Nubae> what is the adm group?
| |
| 09:28 | <Q-FUNK> so, kernel+X release at cycle + 2 months, desktops at cycle + 4 months. that leaves 2 months to stabilize everything to hit a 6 months release cycle.
| |
| 09:30 | <leio> Maybe things could get stable early enough if some contribution to upstream would happen...
| |
| 09:31 | * ogra now dug to the whole sabdfl blog without finding him anywhere talk about the above | |
| 09:31 | <laga> or if more testing happened. (testing is always good, especially mythbuntu could have used more ;))
| |
| 09:31 | ogra: let me get you the url
| |
| 09:31 | <Nubae> ah, is there a list somewhere that says what ubuntu user group is what? looking for a while on the net now and can't find anything
| |
| 09:31 | * leio found a link to theregister interview from someone elses post were this supposedly was brought up | |
| 09:32 | <vagrantc> ogra: no ltsp in debian?
| |
| 09:32 | <ogra> ah, an interview
| |
| 09:32 | vagrantc, well, the removal bug was processed
| |
| 09:32 | <laga> ogra: http://useopensource.blogspot.com/2008/04/synching-open-source-release-schedule.html
| |
| 09:32 | <vagrantc> ogra: did they accidentally remove amd64 i386 and powerpc ?
| |
| 09:32 | <laga> i was referring to this posting. not by the sabdfl himself, but there's a link
| |
| 09:33 | ogra: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/04/22/shuttleworth_hardy_heron/
| |
| 09:33 | <ogra> yup, i read that one, funny that i didnt keep that part in mind at all
| |
| 09:37 | <vagrantc> looks like they just removed: alpha, arm, armel, hppa, ia64, mips, mipsel, s390, sparc and m68k
| |
| 09:48 | <Nubae> I'm unsure what the dip and adm groups are, can someone tell me?
| |
| 09:48 | tux_440volt has joined #ltsp | |
| 09:50 | <Nubae> and should users be in plugdev and video for any particular reason?
| |
| 09:50 | as in users with home directories
| |
| 09:50 | tux_440volt has quit IRC | |
| 09:50 | <leio> plugdev in some distributions at least allow automounting and such things work for the given user
| |
| 09:51 | <Nubae> yeah for ubuntu that's fuse, but should I leave all users in plugdev too?
| |
| 09:53 | <leio> err, fuse?
| |
| 09:53 | mccann has joined #ltsp | |
| 09:53 | <leio> that technology in relation to GNOME gives a ~/.gvfs for remote mounts to use for legacy apps. fuse and automounting don't really go together in principle
| |
| 09:53 | <Nubae> yeah must be in the fuse group to mount usb sticks, cdroms, etc
| |
| 09:54 | <leio> weird
| |
| 09:54 | (I'm not an Ubuntu user, I'm just trying to help as I can with the knowledge I have regarding GNOME and packaging conventions as no-one else is answering right now)
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| 09:56 | <Nubae> :-) thanks
| |
| 09:56 | K_O-Gnom has quit IRC | |
| 09:57 | <leio> don't you have some descriptions of the groups in users-admin btw?
| |
| 09:58 | I remember a bunch of checkboxes saying things like "Allow user to automount", "Allow user to administer the system", etc
| |
| 09:58 | could observe what those change in the set of groups that user belongs to
| |
| 10:01 | <Q-FUNK> ogra: start in the planet, where many people are already discussing the implications that such a decision would have
| |
| 10:01 | <Nubae> users-admin no longer allows editting by default
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| 10:05 | <ogra> Q-FUNK, i only see the one post from tristan that laga pointed out in the beginning
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| 10:07 | <Q-FUNK> ace_suares: ah. antilles
| |
| 10:07 | * ogra goes back to clean the garden furniture | |
| 10:08 | <Q-FUNK> ace_suares: are your guys using european power sockets or amercian ones?
| |
| 10:12 | alekibango has quit IRC | |
| 10:16 | <ace_suares> Q-Funk: we have adapters so we can work with both. But stadard we use 110V/50Hz American socket,.
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| 10:16 | <Q-FUNK> ace_suares: ok. the thing is that we only stock on european power supplies.
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| 10:16 | <ace_suares> no problem we are used to deal with products both from the US (60 hz/110V) and from
| |
| 10:16 | Europe: 220V/50Hz
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| 10:17 | <Q-FUNK> öö... amercan is at 60Hz, isn'it?
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| 10:17 | yup
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| 10:17 | <ace_suares> Q-funk: yes, they are, we are not.
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| 10:17 | We have the worst of both wordls :-)
| |
| 10:17 | <Q-FUNK> yikes!
| |
| 10:17 | us voltage and european frequency?
| |
| 10:17 | <yanu> where is that?
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| 10:17 | <ace_suares> yep
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| 10:18 | <Q-FUNK> go dutch!
| |
| 10:18 | yanu: dutch antilles
| |
| 10:18 | <yanu> where is that
| |
| 10:18 | <ace_suares> www.curacao.com
| |
| 10:19 | <Q-FUNK> :)
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| 10:19 | <ace_suares> Goodplace to hold an LTSP meeting
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| 10:20 | <Q-FUNK> if anyone asks me, the international standard should become 220V/60Hz, but well...
| |
| 10:20 | <ace_suares> .ee ? estonia ?
| |
| 10:20 | <yanu> do they speak dutch out there? hartelijk welkom
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| 10:20 | <Q-FUNK> yup
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| 10:20 | <ace_suares> cool
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| 10:21 | <Q-FUNK> ace_suares: depends. are you guys within the open skies agreement?
| |
| 10:21 | <ace_suares> alomsot had a project there. was in the lower balkans, romanai, albania,, bulgaria
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| 10:22 | Q-Funk: some open skies, yes not all I giess.
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| 10:22 | <Q-FUNK> balkans is quite far from here
| |
| 10:22 | <ace_suares> then got offerend a project in the georgia/lit/est
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| 10:22 | but went to curacao ... cold vs warm, my choice is clear :-)
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| 10:22 | alomsot = almost
| |
| 10:23 | <Q-FUNK> ace_suares: I generally avoid flying to countries that are participating in the US-lead war on peaceful travelers.
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| 10:23 | <ace_suares> I generally avoid flying period
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| 10:23 | <Q-FUNK> that's why i had to ask
| |
| 10:23 | <ace_suares> ecxept that the nearest island is 70 clicks away and you NEED to fly (bonaire).
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| 10:24 | I worked for EYFA and ASEED, more then ten years ago.
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| 10:25 | a bit OT :-)
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| 10:25 | <Q-FUNK> :)
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| 11:00 | <Nubae> damnit, after an upgrade, my squid no longer accepts ssl requests
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| 11:03 | artista_frustrad has quit IRC | |
| 11:04 | <Nubae> ah no, its webmin of course...
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| 11:16 | hey, what kernel do I need to use on i386 to use more than 4 gigs of ram and it be visible?
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| 11:16 | <vagrantc> depends on your linux distro
| |
| 11:17 | <Nubae> ubuntu
| |
| 11:18 | I was told generic should do it, but it doesnt
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| 11:22 | do I have to recompile my kernel, or is there one I can just download?
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| 11:25 | Q-FUNK has quit IRC | |
| 11:29 | <lns> Nubae, i know the linux-image-server kernel uses PAE to get more than 4GB
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| 11:29 | but I thought the others did as well
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| 11:31 | <Nubae> I'm getting mixed answers... in #ubuntu they say u must use a 64 bit OS
| |
| 11:31 | but on the web, there are some indications that you can recompile the kernel to support up to 64 gigs
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| 11:31 | but I thought there was a kernel package available so I can just to apt-get install
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| 11:33 | <laga> Nubae: -server kernel AFAIK
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| 11:33 | <lns> Nubae, PAE extensions in the i386 kernel will give you more
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| 11:33 | I'm using that on 5 servers currently
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| 11:33 | but the amd64 distro definitely has native support (no PAE, which gives a big performance hit)
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| 11:34 | <Nubae> so which package?
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| 11:34 | <lns> Nubae, linux-image-server
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| 11:35 | <Nubae> I've been running 64 bit for a long time, but I'm trying i386 now for the flash and java issues
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| 11:35 | <lns> Nubae, ;) I was in your same shoes ~7months ago
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| 11:35 | <Nubae> and since I have quite a few workstations running low fat, thing the server can take the heat now
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| 11:35 | <lns> for java you can use icedtea java
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| 11:36 | <Nubae> yeah, everything is now running perfectly, except the extra memory issue
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| 11:36 | <lns> flash you can use nspluginwrapper (although i don't think anyone's gotten sound to work on thin clients over that)
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| 11:36 | <Nubae> I used gnash
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| 11:36 | <lns> good for you ;) did it work ok?
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| 11:36 | <Nubae> worked ok, but not as good as flash
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| 11:36 | <lns> yea
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| 11:37 | it would be very nice when gnash is more mature...time will tell
| |
| 11:37 | <Nubae> problem is when entire classes are using flash based educational programs
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| 11:37 | server starts slowing and processor usage goes up to 80%
| |
| 11:37 | <lns> Nubae, what kind of setup/student count do you have? you sound like you're in a very similar situation to me
| |
| 11:38 | Nubae, that will happen with adobe flash too
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| 11:38 | just not as bad
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| 11:38 | <Nubae> well, thats why I've installed low fat clients in the mutlimedia lab
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| 11:38 | <lns> low fat?
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| 11:38 | <Nubae> run their own processor and ram
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| 11:39 | local apps
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| 11:39 | <lns> ah
| |
| 11:39 | how's that workign for you
| |
| 11:39 | <Nubae> very well
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| 11:39 | * laga waits for wholemeal clients | |
| 11:39 | <lns> laga, =p
| |
| 11:39 | <Nubae> except can't always see what's happening on them so well
| |
| 11:39 | <lns> i'm using 2% myself
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| 11:40 | <Nubae> from a management perspective thin client is still better, but this takes the stress off the server
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| 11:41 | at least, in a real world situation, ie, actual school with lots of students and teachers, you see what the real issues are
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| 11:41 | <lns> Nubae, currently i'm running 5 schools with ~200 student accounts each, with a max of around 30-50 students online at the same time
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| 11:42 | <Nubae> sounds like my one school
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| 11:42 | :-)
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| 11:42 | <lns> =)
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| 11:42 | <Nubae> 5 schools, wow, so u must sit in front of the 5 servers continuasly, or u got help?
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| 11:42 | <lns> Nubae, i have remote access to them but no, no help yet
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| 11:43 | looking for it
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| 11:43 | <Nubae> well, I'm going to help with OLPC in July, so if you wanted to take control of yet another school, I've got another one for you here ;-)
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| 14:09 | <lns> Anyone wanna give a report about FF3b5 in Hardy LTSP? Anyone experiencing crashes?
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| 14:16 | <johnny> lns, you should worry about crashes even outside of ltsp before being concerned about how it performs in ltsp
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| 14:17 | i am using beta3 on there atm, til i do the hardy upgrade
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| 14:17 | and i havent heard much of crashes
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| 14:17 | <lns> johnny, that's good
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| 14:18 | I don't plan on upgrading servers to hardy for another month
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| 14:18 | is ff3b5 backported to gutsy?
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| 14:18 | <johnny> i doubt it
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| 14:18 | it's prolly better if they don't
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| 14:18 | <lns> you did a src install?
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| 14:18 | <johnny> uhmm.. just got the binary tarball
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| 14:18 | <lns> ah
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| 14:18 | * lns hasn't done a src install of firefox in a looong time | |
| 14:18 | <johnny> didn't see a need to do a real package when i know the real package is coming
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| 14:19 | i just unpacked it in /usr/local/firefox
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| 14:19 | <lns> did you do that because of crashes in ff2?
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| 14:19 | <johnny> no.. because of slowness of firefox 2
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| 14:19 | i only have 4 machines
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| 14:19 | worst problem with firefox 2..
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| 14:19 | was the fact it wouldn't remembre it was dead
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| 14:20 | and then wouldn't open again
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| 14:20 | <lns> oh yeah, the famous "firefox is already running" thing
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| 14:20 | <johnny> yes..
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| 14:20 | <lns> i got that from a teacher yesterday
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| 14:20 | i hope hardy is better at cleaning up dbus proc stuff
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| 14:20 | <johnny> install gnome-watchdog
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| 14:21 | that's one idea i've heard
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| 14:21 | <lns> ah, you just reminded me about that
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| 14:21 | cool
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| 14:21 | <johnny> i haven't done it yet
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| 14:21 | i just run the equivalent of
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| 14:21 | pkill -u $user
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| 14:21 | <lns> i still have 3 other school labs to install
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| 14:21 | <johnny> at the end of the night
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| 14:22 | the extra proces that stick around don't tend to do any damage
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| 14:22 | altho nautilus can make me sad on that
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| 14:22 | <lns> yeah
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| 14:22 | i'm just used to looking at a clean ps list
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| 14:23 | i haven't had nautilus cpu issues since that upgrade a while back
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| 14:23 | <johnny> not cpu issues
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| 14:23 | <lns> that's real nice not having to deal with that anymore, that was a daily thing for me
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| 14:23 | <johnny> sometimes it just won't redraw
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| 14:23 | the desktop will be black
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| 14:23 | could be cuz i'm using sabayon tho
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| 14:23 | <lns> whenever the desktop would be black for me i would notice nautilus was taking 100% cpu
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| 14:23 | <johnny> i need to get some time to work on that again
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| 14:24 | <lns> i kinda gave up on sabayon a while back.. didn't seem to work at all in feisty/gutsy
| |
| 14:24 | <johnny> truly it didn't
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| 14:24 | that's why i went to work on it
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| 14:24 | there's still one really annoying bug
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| 14:24 | <lns> do you enjoy working on software like that?
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| 14:24 | <johnny> the maintainer is federico mena quintero
| |
| 14:24 | what do you mean?
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| 14:24 | <lns> ah
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| 14:24 | <johnny> but he didn't have time to really work on it
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| 14:25 | so i'd just fix what i could fix
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| 14:25 | and tell him to do things for me
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| 14:25 | <lns> that's cool
| |
| 14:25 | <johnny> almost all the bugs fixed during 2.22 were mine
| |
| 14:25 | <lns> i wish i could hire a programmer to work on ltsp stuff like guis for common tasks and such
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| 14:25 | <johnny> some he committed, but i did the work of figuring them out
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| 14:26 | and then he made them fit the coding style
| |
| 14:26 | or rather.. the sabayon design style
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| 14:26 | sepski has joined #ltsp | |
| 14:26 | <johnny> of what should be done where
| |
| 14:27 | i'm still learning python tho
| |
| 14:27 | atually i'm currently evaluating python web frameworks .. in a bid to learn python more
| |
| 14:35 | <lns> that's great
| |
| 14:35 | if you're interested in ltsp and want to make more tools for it later on let me know
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| 16:03 | <RockTheHouse> Hi
| |
| 16:03 | Cool nick!
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| 16:13 | <xachen> Hi, I'm using Xubuntu and when I click shutdown from the client, it kills the whole server.
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| 16:13 | Does anybody know if there is a way to prevent this?
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| 16:33 | <lns> xachen, not sure about xubuntu/ltsp, did you google for it?
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| 16:34 | <xachen> yeah
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| 16:34 | its because its executing shutdown right on the server
| |
| 16:34 | I guess my best bet is to make it only root executable
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| 16:34 | <lns> there ya go
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| 16:34 | or just take it out of the menu all together and replace with a logoff cmd
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| 16:34 | <xachen> Well
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| 16:34 | <laga> to make what root only executable? :)
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| 16:34 | it should be possible to lock shutdown using hal
| |
| 16:35 | <xachen> I'm doing that, but in case some support agent inds a hack and finds it funny to shutdown our server
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| 16:35 | <laga> "should" as in "it'd make sense"
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| 16:35 | <lns> xachen, yeah - shutdown of the server is only root/admin executable anyway
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| 16:35 | <laga> lns: says who?
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| 16:36 | <lns> laga, says logic? ;)
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| 16:36 | <xachen> lns: when I click shutdown as an unpriv'd user it completes the shutdown command
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| 16:36 | <laga> lns:
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| 16:36 | dbus-send --system --print-reply --dest=org.freedesktop.Hal /org/freedesktop/Hal/devices/computer org.freedesktop.Hal.Device.SystemPowerManagement.Shutdown
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| 16:36 | ^^ that should shut down your box
| |
| 16:36 | (don't try it)
| |
| 16:37 | or you can try it, but don't complain if your computer turns off
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| 16:37 | <lns> well if that is the case with xubuntu i'm very surprised because that's kind of bad in an ltsp env
| |
| 16:37 | especially if the menu option appears for everyone heh
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| 16:37 | <laga> lns: i haven't tried it in an xubuntu ltsp environment, but i guess that's what happens.
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| 16:38 | lns: on my kde box, i can't run that command if another user is logged in
| |
| 16:38 | hal blocks shutdown then
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| 16:38 | (it's still possible to force it from the menu)
| |
| 16:38 | <lns> laga, still - no unprivilidged user in a network/ltsp env should be able to shutdown the system, that's just bad defaults (real bad)
| |
| 16:38 | <laga> yeah.
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| 16:39 | <lns> or any linux system really, unless it's a standalone workstation
| |
| 16:39 | <xachen> i'm curious is this a default for every ltsp setup?
| |
| 16:39 | <laga> xachen: maybe you can try the command i posted above to check if it's really dbus/hal shutting down the box and not gdm or whatever. of course, it might turn your computer off :)
| |
| 16:40 | <lns> xachen, not to my knowledge - in ubuntu ltsp, from the client if you do 'shutdown' it shuts down the terminal
| |
| 16:40 | but i usually take all those cmds out besides logoff anyway through gconf
| |
| 16:41 | <xachen> aah so its xubuntu specific
| |
| 16:41 | gee ok
| |
| 16:41 | <laga> xachen: wait for ogra, he knows everything. he'll around tomorrow i guess
| |
| 16:43 | <xachen> hm ok :)
| |
| 16:43 | <laga> +be*
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| 16:45 | <xachen> also ltsp runs based on SSH. I'm having issue where if power dies on client and they relogin their old processes are still running and creating conflicts
| |
| 16:45 | so if I adjust ssh timeout settings that should fix that I'm assuming
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| 16:46 | <lns> xachen, try googling gnome-watchdog
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| 17:19 | <xachen> yeah its related to HAL permissions
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| 21:00 | <warren> Hmm, youtube video over the network on ONE client is using 40% of the server's CPU and 20mbit/sec of network traffic
| |
| 21:00 | <rjune> yes
| |
| 21:00 | <warren> how is this usable at all?
| |
| 21:01 | <rjune> warren, I've covered that long ago
| |
| 21:01 | <warren> ?
| |
| 21:01 | <rjune> hold on a sec
| |
| 21:01 | http://www.bravegnuworld.com/~rjune/ltsp/
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| 21:02 | go in to glx/benchmarks.html
| |
| 21:02 | <warren> what is this?
| |
| 21:02 | <rjune> basically if you dont' have GLX or xdamage, you get crap
| |
| 21:02 | that's when I started looking into video apps in LTSP
| |
| 21:02 | <warren> ah
| |
| 21:03 | doesn't that describe pretty much all clients?
| |
| 21:03 | <rjune> bandwidth is Xres * Yres * colour depth * fps
| |
| 21:03 | it's worse on a term
| |
| 21:03 | <warren> term?
| |
| 21:03 | <rjune> terminal
| |
| 21:04 | so 320 * 240 * 16 * 24 ==
| |
| 21:04 | <warren> it uses like 12mbit/sec even with the video paused
| |
| 21:04 | <rjune> flash still refreshes
| |
| 21:04 | the above video should use around 28mbps to play
| |
| 21:05 | <warren> what video?
| |
| 21:05 | <rjune> xdamage alleviates that I believe
| |
| 21:05 | the hypothetical 320x240 video at 16bit colour and 24 fps
| |
| 21:05 | <warren> ah
| |
| 21:06 | * warren tests it with my other laptop that has a real video card | |
| 21:06 | <rjune> yeah, if you wanna do multimedia, you want local apps
| |
| 21:06 | <warren> yeah
| |
| 21:07 | <rjune> as I understand it, GLX does an end run around that by issuing commands, for the other side to draw
| |
| 21:07 | <warren> still, you want localapps
| |
| 21:08 | <rjune> yup
| |
| 21:09 | <warren> is any of the localapp stuff working in ltsp upstream?
| |
| 21:09 | <rjune> Not sure, I'm not familiar with the newer LTSP stuff.
| |
| 21:09 | I suspect it probably works a treat
| |
| 21:10 | assuming you mount /usr via nfs
| |
| 21:10 | <warren> eh?
| |
| 21:10 | I thought the point of LTSP5 was to install localapps into the client chroot
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| 21:10 | <rjune> I thought LTSP5 did root as a ramdisk, then you mount /usr as nfs.
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| 21:11 | we used to do nfsroot to a client chroot on the server
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| 21:11 | <warren> no
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| 21:11 | <rjune> ogra, jammcq, you around?
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| 21:11 | no which?
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| 21:11 | <warren> LTSP5 is entire chroot installed from OS packages instead of built from sources
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| 21:11 | you mount that over the network via nbd or nfs
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| 21:11 | to boot it
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| 21:12 | <rjune> ahh, I didn't know that.
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| 21:12 | <warren> only thing that really changed from LTSP-4.2 is how it builds the chroot
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| 21:12 | <rjune> gotcha
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| 21:13 | ok then, so you have to install whatever apps you need.
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| 21:14 | at one point I poked into a bunch of different areas of ltsp. I stopped doing it a while ago.
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| 21:14 | <warren> hmm
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| 21:14 | <rjune> Started building routers again, got working too much.
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| 21:14 | <warren> playing youtube on a decent laptop, same bandwidth usage
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| 21:14 | * rjune shrugs | |
| 21:14 | <rjune> yup.
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| 21:14 | I believe we predicted that.
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| 21:15 | <warren> and paused is still 12mbit/sec
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| 21:15 | <rjune> flash seems to update every pixel, not just what has changed.
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| 21:15 | nor does it do any sort of compression
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| 21:15 | which isn't too noticeable locally, but over a network, licks the sweat off a dead mans balls.
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| 21:15 | <warren> actually, the latest flash can use opengl to render
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| 21:16 | which makes it possible to play h264 fullscreen with hardware acceleration, locally at least
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| 21:16 | <rjune> that might make a difference.
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| 21:16 | <warren> it doesn't work in nspluginwrapper
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| 21:16 | <rjune> is konq a priority for you? or does something else use it?
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| 21:17 | <warren> I don't use konq
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| 21:17 | and nspluginwrapper doesn't work for konq at all
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| 21:17 | <rjune> so what else uses nsplugin wrapper?
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| 21:17 | <warren> nspluginwrapper is used by default in firefox since Fedora 8
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| 21:17 | even on i386
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| 21:17 | <rjune> I'm currently drapped in windows, or I would contradict that statement.
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| 21:17 | s/drapp/trapp
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| 21:17 | <warren> it isolates the plugins to a separate process so crashes don't take down the entire browser
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| 21:18 | <rjune> a wise decision
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| 21:18 | <warren> (Fedora's browser almost never crashes a result)
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| 21:18 | <rjune> that would explain why konq does so well for me.
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| 21:18 | <warren> konqueror has something with a similar name that does something similar
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| 21:18 | <rjune> ubuntu uses nspluginwrapper
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| 21:18 | <warren> but it is even more broken than nspluginwrapper
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| 21:18 | <rjune> LOL
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| 21:18 | when are you guys looking to switch to gnash?
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| 21:18 | <warren> Ubuntu doesn't wrap i386 plugins in firefox
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| 21:19 | <rjune> no it doesn't
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| 21:19 | <warren> we tried shipping it by default but decided against it
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| 21:19 | <rjune> not useful yet?
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| 21:19 | * rjune hasn't looked at it | |
| 21:19 | <warren> because even if you buy all the gstreamer codec plugins from fluendo, it is unusable
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| 21:19 | oh wait, there's gnash and swfdec
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| 21:19 | two competing projects
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| 21:19 | <rjune> yup
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| 21:19 | <warren> they're both unusable
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| 21:19 | <rjune> neither work yet
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| 21:20 | <warren> here's the problem
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| 21:20 | lots of the stuff in flash has well known patents
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| 21:20 | <rjune> figures.
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| 21:20 | <warren> and they're trying to implement a moving target
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| 21:21 | <rjune> yeah
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| 21:22 | <warren> I'm amused by compiz working on the thin client
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| 21:22 | too bad there aren't any real thin clients sold with a decent video card
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| 21:22 | <rjune> heh
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| 21:22 | <warren> I can drag around my window with spinning cube and wobble
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| 21:22 | over the network
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| 21:22 | <rjune> the eye candy is great, until somebody says, why doesn't youtube play?
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| 21:23 | <warren> it doens't?
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| 21:23 | <rjune> sure, what, three streams?
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| 21:23 | <warren> youtube is working with compiz here
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| 21:24 | <rjune> what kind of bandwidth and usage?
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| 21:24 | <warren> wow, it lowered my CPU usage on the server
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| 21:24 | but bandwidth is double!
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| 21:24 | <rjune> compiz did?
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| 21:24 | LOL
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| 21:24 | <warren> yeah, compiz lowered the CPU usage on the server
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| 21:24 | it makes sense, direct rendering
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| 21:24 | I mean
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| 21:24 | indirect rendering
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| 21:25 | rjune: Fedora 9 has experimental DRI2... indirect direct rendering
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| 21:25 | rjune: opengl rendering on the side of a spinning cube
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| 21:26 | <rjune> cool
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| 21:27 | <warren> rjune: constnatly spinning the cube to the thin client, < 5% CPU usage on one core of server, about 400KB/sec bandwidth
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| 21:27 | <rjune> that's not bad at all
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| 21:27 | <warren> yeah
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| 21:27 | <rjune> brb\
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| 21:27 | <warren> compiz actually IMPROVES performance of the thin client
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| 21:27 | due to indirect rendering
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| 21:29 | <rjune> that's a good thing
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| 21:29 | it cost more bandwidth?
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| 21:29 | <warren> less
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| 21:30 | ah, compiz + youtube had no effect on bandwidth
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| 21:30 | I was looking at a different youtube video
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| 21:30 | it seems to be # of pixels
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| 21:31 | <rjune> 'k
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| 23:27 | <johnny_> hardy dread
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| 23:27 | i knew the upgrade would break one of my systems
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