IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.libera.chat (webchat)
Channel log from 27 October 2009 (all times are UTC)
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| 07:12 | <tarzeau> hello
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| 07:13 | i'm in contact with a school in zurich that wants to push ltsp for schools in switzerland
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| 07:13 | he can also produce cases and assembled computers from taiwan for cheap (we got some examples here)
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| 07:13 | that we'll use as the successor to the alix machines (www.pcengines.ch)
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| 07:14 | we use those ltsp clients with linux, windows and mac os x logins (currently with ctrl-alt-f7,f8,f9), for mac we use http://www.coderebel.com/products/irapp-terminal-server/
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| 07:15 | i just saw the "bash text menu for linux or windows, yuck for ltsp 4... not sure if i'm going to write a mouse gui chooser for all three, and maybe other stuff"
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| 07:17 | <tarzeau> panthera: would you be interested on working on software stuff like that?
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| 07:17 | i also know some other teachers around switzerland, that i have good contacts to (baetterchende, BE), plus some IT companies (SO, ZH, BS)
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| 07:18 | * tarzeau makes some photos of the new thin client... | |
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| 07:36 | <cliebow> sbalneav:uneventful trip home?
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| 07:37 | <scottmaccal> hmm. Now that I've met people in person I have learn their nicks.
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| 07:38 | That's hard because I have trouble just remembering names!
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| 07:47 | <cliebow> scottmaccal, this is chuck...booted to live cd but havnt gotten hd to mount as hfsplus or ext3
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| 07:51 | <stgraber> hey scottmaccal
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| 07:52 | <cliebow> stgraber, howdy Stephane!
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| 07:53 | <stgraber> hi cliebow
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| 07:53 | * cliebow cliebow hopes he spelled correctly | |
| 07:53 | <stgraber> you did
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| 07:53 | <cliebow> stgraber: a karmic mac install is prob a hfsplus filesystem,do you think?
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| 07:54 | fdisk shows appl_unux_svr2
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| 07:57 | <scottmaccal> hey all.
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| 07:58 | cool
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| 07:58 | that helps.
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| 07:59 | hmm. Well I'm off to get an LTSP server up and going.
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| 07:59 | <cliebow> 9~)
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| 08:00 | close enough i suppose
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| 08:07 | <IHS_Volunteer> older ATI cards work great, tridents and s3's, not so much. Intel stuff has some bugs on a few older systems, but not all. SOme of the newer ones act the worst. Most of these work fine with ubuntu running directly on the machine. :/
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| 08:07 | newer as in middle of the P4's reign.
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| 08:09 | I don't think the 233mhz Pentium MMXs would work great with ubuntu directly on the machine, though.
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| 08:14 | <Appiah> I have a strange problem, Mounting USB key/hdd. Works sometimes , sometimes it dont
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| 08:14 | what should I look for when troubleshooting this?
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| 08:16 | <IHS_Volunteer> what permissions are set for the user?
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| 08:17 | <Appiah> When I put in the USB stick, I can write to it , delete from it. eject it , insert it again and it might not pop up
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| 08:17 | this is on a thin client btw
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| 08:19 | <IHS_Volunteer> I have that on my desktop sometimes, so it may not be a ltsp specific thing. Is FUSE and access external storage devices automatically set to allowed in user privileges? (might be something else on non-ubuntu setups)
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| 08:21 | <cyberorg> Appiah, udevadm monitor on local terminal
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| 08:24 | <Appiah> hmm
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| 08:24 | never used that before
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| 08:51 | <sbalneav> Morning all
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| 08:54 | <scottmaccal> good morning.
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| 08:55 | <cliebow> sbalneav!!!!!!!
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| 08:56 | <Gadi> hey, sbalneav - did you squash those 2 bugs u were going to look at at bts?
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| 08:56 | I think one was the chown() in lbmount
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| 08:57 | and I forget the other
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| 08:57 | :)
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| 08:57 | <sbalneav> Good morning scottmaccal, cliebow. Recovered yet?
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| 08:58 | <cliebow> not yet...and i stayed away from the sauce..
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| 08:58 | <sbalneav> Gadi: I've worked on them. The 32/64 bit problem's an issue with size_t being one size on one and one on the other.
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| 08:59 | <Gadi> ah, right - that was the other one
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| 08:59 | ;)
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| 08:59 | <sbalneav> Everywhere there's use of a size_t, I need to define an ACTUAL 32 bit unsigned int, assign the size to that, and transmit that across the wire.
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| 09:00 | seeing as how the size (the way we use it) will always be <= BLKSIZE (2k), I'm not too worried about loss of precision :)
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| 09:00 | <jammcq> good morning friends
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| 09:00 | <sbalneav> so I'm grinding through the code on that.
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| 09:00 | <Gadi> Im guessing the lbmount one is as easy as adding an else() in mkdir_safe()?
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| 09:00 | <sbalneav> !j
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| 09:00 | <cliebow> scottmaccal, that g4 wouldnt mount hd after it installed just fine..even natively..trying to reunstall now..this laptop was ont that wouldnt image(which is why i have it)..so maybe it is borked..
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| 09:00 | <ltspbot> sbalneav: "j" is jammcq!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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| 09:01 | <jammcq> sbalneav: Scotty !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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| 09:01 | <Gadi> and in the else, doing the chown
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| 09:01 | <cliebow> jammcq:good trip home?
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| 09:01 | <sbalneav> Gadi: yeah, should be that simple.
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| 09:01 | <jammcq> cliebow: yep. great trip. in total, we drove almost 2400 miles
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| 09:01 | <Gadi> actually
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| 09:01 | <cliebow> Holy...
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| 09:01 | <Gadi> we could just change the mkdir(dir,750) to mkdir(dir,700)
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| 09:01 | <jammcq> cliebow: we went up into the observation deck on the bridge in Belfast
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| 09:02 | <Gadi> a single digit change
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| 09:02 | :)
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| 09:02 | <cliebow> ok cool,,in Bucksport..then
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| 09:02 | <ogra> Gadi, doesnt work
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| 09:02 | <sbalneav> I think the mount() call decides to impose it's own perms on the mount.
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| 09:02 | <scottmaccal> hi sbalneav. Were you at LTSP by the sea?
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| 09:02 | <jammcq> cliebow: yeah Bucksport
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| 09:02 | <cliebow> that old bridge looked so massive before and now looks so puny
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| 09:03 | <ogra> Gadi, lbmount is suid ... so the dir is always root owned
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| 09:03 | <jammcq> yep, especially when you are above it looking down at it
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| 09:03 | <Gadi> I see
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| 09:03 | <scottmaccal> cliebow: bummer about the mac.
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| 09:03 | <Gadi> we need the chown after the mount
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| 09:03 | <ogra> (i wonder how many times we had that discussion before :P )
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| 09:03 | <sbalneav> scottmaccal: Yeah, I was the one with the trout princess, and you were the fellow with the cute kid! :)
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| 09:03 | <jammcq> ogra: HEY
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| 09:03 | <cliebow> i had a day s worth of honeydos
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| 09:03 | <ogra> yo jammcq
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| 09:03 | <sbalneav> sbalneav = Scott Balneaves
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| 09:03 | <Gadi> ogra: and yet it remains unfixed
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| 09:03 | :P
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| 09:04 | <ogra> Gadi, its not fixable by design ...
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| 09:04 | <ogra> we would need to redesign the whole setup
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| 09:04 | <jammcq> scottmaccal: did you lose a jacket at BTS ?
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| 09:04 | <scottmaccal> jammcq: year.
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| 09:04 | yeah
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| 09:04 | <Gadi> ogra: why cant you change ownership of the directory after its mounted?
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| 09:04 | <jammcq> heh
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| 09:04 | <ogra> Gadi, once scotty gets dbus going, we can use polkit and friends
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| 09:04 | <scottmaccal> they found though. will pick it up at some point.
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| 09:04 | <jammcq> scottmaccal: it's still there. David Lloyd has it
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| 09:04 | <Gadi> thats what the workaround does
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| 09:04 | <jammcq> cool
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| 09:04 | <Gadi> we just need to do it in lbmount
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| 09:05 | <scottmaccal> I always do that.
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| 09:05 | I can't leave a hotel without leaving something.
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| 09:05 | Any place for that matter.
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| 09:06 | <scottmaccal> sbalneav: I missed the trout princess story!
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| 09:06 | <ogra> its videotaped :)
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| 09:06 | <scottmaccal> I came in after it I think.
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| 09:06 | <jammcq> scottmaccal: you can hear it again next year
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| 09:06 | <scottmaccal> orga: awesome.
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| 09:07 | cool.
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| 09:08 | <sbalneav> and the year after that, and the year after that....
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| 09:08 | <scottmaccal> heh
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| 09:08 | <sbalneav> There'll always be someone new who HASN'T heard the story before.
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| 09:09 | <scottmaccal> sbalneav: I am trouble trying to put a face to you nick?
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| 09:09 | What was your real name?
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| 09:09 | <sbalneav> Scott Balneaves
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| 09:09 | <scottmaccal> Ah. Yes.
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| 09:09 | The other Scott.
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| 09:09 | <Appiah> does a kernel update on the server affect the LTSP envoirment at all? Do I need to rebuild the client images etc?
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| 09:09 | <ogra> /whois sbalneav
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| 09:09 | <sbalneav> Big Guy, loud, mustache, Canadian :)
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| 09:09 | <ogra> ^^^ helps ;)
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| 09:09 | <scottmaccal> There was just one beside my self. Right?
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| 09:09 | <sbalneav> Yup!
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| 09:10 | <scottmaccal> Oh. Cool.
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| 09:10 | Two cute kids.
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| 09:10 | yep. got it.
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| 09:10 | <sbalneav> I'm Scott[0] on this project, and now you're Scott[1] :)
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| 09:10 | <scottmaccal> sweet!
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| 09:10 | <sbalneav> for scott in Scotts:
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| 09:10 | scott++
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| 09:11 | <scottmaccal> Yeah, I never laughed so hard as I did last night in a long time.
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| 09:11 | funny stuff.
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| 09:12 | <sbalneav> Yeah, we're an eclectic group of misfits :)
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| 09:12 | <jammcq> yeah, the "Nerdy Dozen"
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| 09:12 | <sbalneav> lol
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| 09:13 | * sbalneav listens to Steely Dan's "Gaucho" | |
| 09:15 | <cliebow> The Trout Princess alterego
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| 09:16 | cliebow is now known as squarepeg | |
| 09:16 | <squarepeg> x
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| 09:16 | <jammcq> y
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| 09:17 | <squarepeg> cliebow tries new nick..just for the hell of it
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| 09:17 | <jammcq> it's a nice one
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| 09:17 | <squarepeg> better than round hole i guess
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| 09:17 | * scottmaccal 'backing-up server so it can be blown-away for LTSP use' | |
| 09:20 | <Gadi> hmm... if(!status) { chown(path2, uidReal, "root"); } near the end of root_mounter()
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| 09:20 | sbalneav: what dya think?
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| 09:20 | er, maybe fchown
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| 09:20 | instead of chown
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| 09:20 | <jammcq> squarepeg++
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| 09:21 | <scottmaccal> should I wait until U 9.10 is released and install that or go for U 9.04?
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| 09:25 | <sbalneav> Gadi: Yeah, that's probably where I'll stick it.
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| 09:29 | <sbalneav> scottmaccal: At this point, you might as well wait the two days, and install 9.10
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| 09:29 | That way, you'll get all the latest bling
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| 09:33 | <scottmaccal> sbalneav: cool. thank you.
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| 09:34 | <johnny> i'm ready to upgrade to karmic at the store..
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| 09:34 | we're still on intrepid
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| 09:41 | <sbalneav> scottmaccal: You could just go for karmic NOW, it's pretty much frozen.
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| 09:42 | <johnny> how do you get karmic how the easiest way?
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| 09:42 | i think i might start it tonight
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| 09:43 | <scottmaccal> hmm. I think I'll go for it then.
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| 09:44 | <scottmaccal> 'off to begin LTSP install'
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| 09:45 | <sbalneav> ogra: https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ltsp/+bug/107526
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| 09:45 | The "rebooting the server screws up my thin clients" bug :)
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| 09:46 | <ogra> yeah
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| 09:46 | <sbalneav> Do the fixes to NBD for reconnect more or less "fix" this?
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| 09:46 | <ogra> any idea how to solve it ?
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| 09:46 | i doubt it
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| 09:46 | stgraber, surely knows more though
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| 09:47 | <sbalneav> Well, I was just thinking, perhaps once we get dbus "working", maybe poweroff events on the server could push out to the clients as well.
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| 09:48 | That's about the BEST you could hope for.
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| 09:48 | <Gadi> The last guy's comment seems to be ideal
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| 09:48 | we can just expand stgraber's monitor daemon
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| 09:49 | <sbalneav> Impractical.
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| 09:49 | <Gadi> (and make sure we have all of ldm_dialog's dependencies in RAM
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| 09:49 | why?
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| 09:49 | <sbalneav> What do people expect, if they're sitting at the desktop, and the SERVER goes away, that SOMEHOW, you're going to migrate elsewhere?
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| 09:50 | <Gadi> no, but maybe its intermittent
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| 09:50 | <sbalneav> your gnome-session and all programs just dies.
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| 09:50 | <Gadi> if the server goes down, it should wait for nbd to come back
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| 09:51 | <sbalneav> what about your session?
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| 09:51 | So NBD comes back, big deal.
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| 09:51 | <Gadi> your session should die naturally, and when nbd comes back, ldm should go back to login screen
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| 09:51 | <sbalneav> Or, just shut down the terminal cleanly.
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| 09:51 | <Gadi> but, at least the user knows whats going on
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| 09:51 | <sbalneav> which is what I'm suggesting.
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| 09:52 | <Gadi> if you have a lot of users, its probably best to let the user know what happened before taking action
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| 09:52 | otherwise, you generate a lot of support calls
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| 09:53 | <sbalneav> If you've got a lot of users logged into an LTSP server, and you're rebooting the server underneath them, you're going to ask them to log off ANYWAY.
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| 09:53 | <Gadi> the admin may not be actively rebooting it
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| 09:53 | maybe there was a power failure
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| 09:53 | or a power supply died
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| 09:54 | * ogra is completely in the "properly shut down" camp here | |
| 09:54 | <Gadi> proper shutdown is fine
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| 09:54 | <ogra> and for a fix on both sides
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| 09:54 | <Gadi> but, can the user be notified?
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| 09:54 | <ogra> a dbus trigger as well and monitoring on the client side
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| 09:54 | <Gadi> "Connection to server lost. Shutting down..."
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| 09:54 | <ogra> s/and/as/
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| 09:55 | <sbalneav> WHAT EXATLY is going to notify the clients in the case of the server dying unexpectedly? :)
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| 09:55 | <Gadi> also, whatever we do, it should be over-rideable
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| 09:55 | because maybe someone has a separate boot server from app server
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| 09:55 | <ogra> sbalneav, the nbd monitor
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| 09:55 | <Gadi> and maybe if one app server goes down, it is set to connect to another
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| 09:56 | we must be sure to distinguish between the case of the app server going down and the boot server
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| 09:56 | * sbalneav throws up hands. | |
| 09:56 | <Gadi> if we use nbd monitor, then it is a boot server issue
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| 09:56 | <sbalneav> Not my bug anymore
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| 09:56 | <Gadi> if we use dbus, it is an app server issue
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| 09:57 | <ogra> nbd monitor just needs a timeout addded and call "poweroff -f" if the server doesnt respond in time
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| 09:57 | <Gadi> with adjustable time
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| 09:57 | I agree
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| 09:58 | <ogra> not sure you can do anything about notification though
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| 09:58 | <Gadi> in that case, I would say thats fine
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| 09:58 | <ogra> you dont have a fs anymore, only stuff currently in ram will work
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| 09:58 | <Gadi> in the case of someone actively turning off the app server, there should be user notification prior to shutdown
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| 09:58 | <ogra> which might mean poweroff migth not work either
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| 09:59 | <Gadi> and then a dbus-initiated client shutdown
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| 09:59 | <ogra> right, though that needs deep testing
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| 09:59 | <Gadi> you can always make a call to: echo o >/proc/sysrq-trigger
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| 09:59 | <ogra> hmm, indeed
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| 09:59 | <Gadi> it doesnt need to be clean in the nbd case
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| 10:00 | only in the dbus case
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| 10:00 | <ogra> thats clear
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| 10:00 | the question is if you can actually get to the echo or something is missing in advance already
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| 10:00 | thats what i mean by "deep testing" :)
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| 10:00 | <Gadi> ah
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| 10:01 | <stgraber> monitor_nbd is started before X so it doesn't know about Xauthority and stuff like that
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| 10:01 | <Gadi> usually works for me
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| 10:01 | <PMantis> sbalneav: This looks like yours: http://www.woot.com/
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| 10:01 | <ogra> stgraber, X isnt involved
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| 10:01 | <Gadi> when I have a client whose nbd is pulled out from under it
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| 10:01 | <stgraber> also, we'd really need to make sure that's not just a boot server failure, I actually use monitor_nbd for roaming from a server to the other in case of failure (with hearbeat moving the IP address)
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| 10:02 | ogra: if we want to notify the user, then it is
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| 10:02 | <ogra> stgraber, i doubt we can if the filesystem is gone
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| 10:02 | you would have to build some static tool that gets preloaded into ram
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| 10:03 | <PMantis> nbd doesn't seems to be as resilient as nfs
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| 10:04 | nbd is faster though
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| 10:04 | <Gadi> stgraber: do you use dhcp-failover on those servers, or just heartbeat?
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| 10:04 | <stgraber> PMantis: with NFS you'd simply get stuck in I/O wait, with NBD you can still access whatever data is in your local cache
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| 10:04 | <ogra> PMantis, NFS cant properly deal with union mouting ...
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| 10:05 | so even if it is more resilent, your rottfs will likely die
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| 10:05 | *rootfs
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| 10:05 | <PMantis> Hmmm, so unionfs and tempfs over nfs doesn't work?
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| 10:05 | <sbalneav> Isn't that being fixed at some point? They've been talking about it for years...
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| 10:05 | <ogra> right
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| 10:05 | <stgraber> Gadi: we have load-balanced DHCP, then a tftp on each dhcp, then two other servers for nbd (with load-balancing and heartbeat for failover), then all of the ltsp-cluster infrastructure loadbalanced + failover
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| 10:05 | <ogra> sbalneav, it might of once the kernel gets native mount --union support instead of using a third party fs module
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| 10:06 | <PMantis> ogra: I have a client that runs multiple thin clients. Some are LTSP 4.2u2 with NFS root, and other LTSP 5 with ndb root. If we reboot the server, the ndb clients usually lock up. The NFS clients, simply re-query XDMCP and move along on its merry way.
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| 10:07 | <ogra> PMantis, yes, nfs doesnt use union mounts
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| 10:07 | <PMantis> That first "client' should likely say "customer" to be clearer.
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| 10:08 | <ogra> if you have a union mount and the readonly part of your fs goes away you are in trouble
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| 10:08 | nfs uses bind mounted dirs in a tmpfs instead of union mounts
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| 10:08 | setting that up during boot makes it so slow
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| 10:08 | <Gadi> stgraber: how do you loadbalance the nbd servers?
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| 10:08 | <ogra> an optimal solution would be nfs and union mounts
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| 10:09 | <Gadi> won't heartbeat be a one-or-the-other, if it migrates IP?
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| 10:09 | <PMantis> ogra: Yeah, jammcq said that LTSP5 on nfs was really slow...
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| 10:13 | <cyberorg> anyone exploring aoe at BTS?
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| 10:17 | <sbalneav> aoe?
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| 10:18 | <cyberorg> sbalneav, http://en.opensuse.org/LTSP/AoE
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| 10:18 | <ogra> alert on emergency ?
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| 10:18 | heh, another network block device implementation ?
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| 10:18 | isnt iscsi and nbd enough ?
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| 10:19 | <johnny> cyberorg, i think if you want that.. you're gonna have to do it by yourself..
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| 10:19 | altho perhaps dracut will sort it natively
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| 10:19 | <stgraber> Gadi: each tftp points to an nbd server, each dhcp points to a tftp and dhcp is load-balanced
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| 10:19 | <johnny> cyberorg, will suse use dracut or upstart?
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| 10:19 | <cyberorg> johnny, we are using it since almost a year now :)
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| 10:20 | <johnny> cyberorg, probably not in a distro agnostic way then..
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| 10:20 | <stgraber> cyberorg: AFAIK AOE doesn't work through routers as it's at the ethernet level
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| 10:20 | <cyberorg> johnny, it is kiwi's implementation, and kiwi is distro independent thing
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| 10:20 | stgraber, yes i think you are right there
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| 10:21 | <johnny> cyberorg, will you use dracut or upstart??
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| 10:21 | <cyberorg> johnny, dracut?
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| 10:21 | <johnny> guess not..
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| 10:21 | distro agnostic initramfs infrastructure
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| 10:21 | <sbalneav> cyberorg: Well, seeing as how no-one from OpenSUSE ever seems to feel the need to submit any patches or take active part in upstream development, I'd say no, we haven't looked at aoe.
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| 10:21 | <johnny> fedora and ubuntu use it
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| 10:21 | cyberorg, ask somebody.. i'd be interested to know
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| 10:21 | cyberorg, how about upstart init system then?
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| 10:21 | <cyberorg> sbalneav, we do not patch ltsp, all ltsp packages are as they are upstream
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| 10:22 | <Gadi> stgraber: if each tftp points to a different nbd server, why does heartbeat migrate the IP?
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| 10:22 | <Gadi> stgraber: unless it multihimes the IP?
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| 10:22 | *multihomes
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| 10:23 | <sbalneav> But you're obviously MODIFYING how you use LTSP since you "are using it for almost a year now"
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| 10:23 | <johnny> cyberorg, answer my question :)
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| 10:23 | <cyberorg> johnny, if i knew :)
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| 10:23 | http://en.opensuse.org/Boot_time
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| 10:24 | johnny, we already do a lot of optimization using preload, init script running parallel etc
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| 10:24 | <johnny> /me guesses not then
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| 10:24 | too bad
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| 10:24 | <cyberorg> every time devs start to look at other mechanism and settle for what we already have as not much improvement is seen
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| 10:25 | but who knows
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| 10:25 | <ogra> johnny, dracut or upstart ?
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| 10:25 | did you mean s/upstarts/initramfs-tools/ ?
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| 10:25 | <johnny> i asked about both..
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| 10:25 | <ogra> ah
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| 10:25 | i thought it was an or question
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| 10:25 | <johnny> cyberorg, but this mechanism is used by multiple distros already.. that is the difference
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| 10:25 | <cyberorg> http://en.opensuse.org/Ubuntu_and_Upstart
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| 10:26 | <ogra> lol
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| 10:26 | cyberorg, in 7.04 up to 9.04 upstart onbly replaced the init binary
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| 10:26 | <johnny> this is the part that is changing "Since Upstart currently just imitates SysV init, there was no performance improvement when booting Suse with Upstart instead of the SysV init. "
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| 10:26 | since ubuntu and fedora will stop doing that eventually
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| 10:27 | <ogra> using measures based on that is the biggest nonsense i have seen in a while
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| 10:27 | <cyberorg> johnny, as i told you that subject is researched before every major openSUSE release :)
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| 10:27 | <ogra> with 9.10 all the core initscripts are gone
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| 10:28 | with 10.04 everything will be upstart events
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| 10:28 | <johnny> ogra, hopefully they will revisit it after next time..
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| 10:28 | <cyberorg> http://en.opensuse.org/BrainStorming_Prague#Init_system_too_complex.2C_full_of_hacks
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| 10:28 | <ogra> johnny, it will be going on in 10.04
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| 10:28 | <johnny> ogra, i mean suse
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| 10:28 | <ogra> it was just important to do the critical steps in karmic
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| 10:28 | the task is way to big to do it in one release
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| 10:29 | <johnny> it will be amazing to have suse/mandrake/debian all using it..
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| 10:29 | and all using dracut. but probably too much to hope for
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| 10:29 | :(
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| 10:29 | <ogra> upstart is very slick
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| 10:29 | we might switch to dracut
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| 10:29 | <johnny> ogra, but you probably never looked at the gentoo init system did you
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| 10:29 | it was great
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| 10:29 | <ogra> not in lucid though
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| 10:29 | <johnny> orrather.. it is great
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| 10:29 | <ogra> lucid == LTS
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| 10:29 | <johnny> gentoo's was already way better since years
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| 10:30 | <ogra> all cool features only come from karmic for it
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| 10:30 | <johnny> so they don't have as much incentive to switch
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| 10:30 | <ogra> gentoos isnt event driven
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| 10:30 | <johnny> no.. dependency driven
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| 10:30 | but it was way faster than what you guys were using before
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| 10:30 | <ogra> i know Keybuk did a deep review of all existing solution before even starting upstart
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| 10:30 | <cyberorg> johnny, see all the things they are looking at? Readahead, sreadahead, init-ng, upstart, even finit
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| 10:31 | <ogra> and i have seen <10sec boots already
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| 10:31 | with a stock ubuntu during karmic development
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| 10:31 | <johnny> you're just not the person to ask.. i can tell
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| 10:31 | <ogra> sreadahead is buggy ...
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| 10:32 | we'll drop it in lucid and come up with something sane in ubuntu
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| 10:32 | <cyberorg> johnny, of course not, i just do some packaging and build opensuse-edu isos :)
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| 10:33 | sbalneav, btw everything we patch, even if it is small hackish thing i've always posted on ltsp-developers list
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| 10:36 | <ogra> so wheer is the patch that enables ltsp-build-client AoE images ?
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| 10:36 | so fedora can use it
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| 10:36 | <sbalneav> cyberorg: But my point is, why not just patch UPSTREAM to the code itself? If it's just a case of you're not a part of the ltsp-developers group on launchpad, we can fix that REAL quick :)
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| 10:36 | <ogra> or debian
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| 10:36 | <sbalneav> right.
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| 10:36 | * sbalneav goes to look | |
| 10:37 | <cyberorg> ogra, that is kiwi's implementation, i am just a user of that, put ltsp packages in there to get things going
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| 10:37 | <ogra> so why do you ask if we discuss implementing AoE in LTSP then ?
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| 10:38 | <cyberorg> ogra, so all distros get to use the same feature :)
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| 10:38 | <ogra> so why dont you send a patch that makes that possible and instead implement it in a forked way ?
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| 10:39 | <sbalneav> Right. Unless someone puts it on the agenda, how can we discuss it?
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| 10:39 | <cyberorg> ogra, you are asking that after over 2 years of knowing me? i can't code!! :D
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| 10:39 | <ogra> you can obviously make it work in kiwi
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| 10:40 | <sbalneav> cyberorg: So, in short, what we'd like to see is Kiwi LTSP people become less of active "users" of LTSP upstream, and more of active DEVELOPERS of ltsp upsteream :)
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| 10:40 | <ogra> ++
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| 10:40 | <sbalneav> cyberorg: In others words, surrender and become part of the borg :)
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| 10:41 | <cyberorg> sbalneav, i am ltsp and kiwi user, i have not written anything for ltsp or kiwi, both things just work when put together
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| 10:41 | <johnny> cyberorg, can't you convince the people who actually do code those patches to come here?
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| 10:41 | <cyberorg> there are tons of talented people like you writing code, someone has to put it together, thats what i do
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| 10:43 | <johnny> sure.. but you should bring those suse coders to here..
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| 10:43 | <sbalneav> cyberorg: I hope you don't think we're beating up on you :) but it would be nice if you could agitate for someone who IS doing the ltsp stuff within OpenSUSE to come forward and be part of the team .
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| 10:43 | <cyberorg> johnny, it is all in simple bash scripts and perl in here http://git.berlios.de/cgi-bin/gitweb.cgi?p=kiwi;a=summary
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| 10:43 | sbalneav, i am used to that, so i stick to what i do best and not poke anywhere that i do not understand much
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| 10:43 | <johnny> cyberorg, it's not code we need.. but cooperation
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| 10:44 | so those folks who are writing that stuff should come here
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| 10:44 | <sbalneav> One of the frustrations of #ltsp is the apparent "arms-length" that opensuse sort of keeps itself from us.
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| 10:44 | So I, personally, would like to see them be more ACTIVELY involved.
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| 10:44 | <ogra> ++
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| 10:44 | <cyberorg> sbalneav, there is no one from opensuse into ltsp other than me, and i am always here, johnny even helping some times :)
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| 10:44 | <sbalneav> We've got ogra/stgraber for ubuntu, vagrand for debeian, warren for fedora, johnny & others for gentoo.
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| 10:45 | <moldy> hi folks
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| 10:45 | <sbalneav> cyberorg: Well, who authored that AoE page, then?
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| 10:45 | SOMEONE's doing some LTSP hacking :)
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| 10:46 | <cyberorg> sbalneav, no, it is part of kiwi -> http://kiwi.berlios.de/
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| 10:46 | <ogra> still, who wrote that page ?
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| 10:46 | <cyberorg> kiwi just happen to suit what ltsp needs
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| 10:46 | <sbalneav> I thought kiwi was a OpenSuse thing?
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| 10:46 | <cyberorg> ogra, i can write wiki page :)
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| 10:46 | <johnny> kiwi is a distro builder
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| 10:47 | <sbalneav> right, but isn't it an OpenSUSE project?
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| 10:47 | <johnny> started by opensuse.. but not supposed to be an open suse specific project
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| 10:47 | <ogra> its developed by suse people
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| 10:47 | <moldy> ogra: [re: https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/373100] i don't have a karmic test environment handy -- would it be alot of effort for you to give this a quick test?
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| 10:47 | <cyberorg> sbalneav, no, "Distribution independent design" same kind of plugin system like ltsp, but it is used to create images of all kinds
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| 10:48 | http://www.opensuse-education.org/download/openSUSE-Edu-live-li-f-e-unstable.i686-11.2-RC1.iso
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| 10:48 | <ogra> moldy, the ubuntu archive is locked down since sunday
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| 10:48 | <sbalneav> So, what you're saying is, we don't need a OpenSUSe persom, we need a Kiwi person to hang out here
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| 10:48 | <cyberorg> that live DVD is also created using kiwi, so is ltsp image
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| 10:48 | <sbalneav> then opensuse just gets what kiwi uses, right?
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| 10:49 | <cyberorg> sbalneav, ltsp is just one use that i make of kiwi, it is not made just for ltsp or thin client systems
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| 10:49 | <ogra> implementing aoe is as simple as nbd ...
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| 10:50 | its afew lines for an initramfs script and another few lines to be added to ltsp-update-image
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| 10:50 | <johnny> i just don't know the benefit
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| 10:50 | <ogra> in max i guess that would be 10-20 lines for someone who very roughly knows shell
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| 10:50 | johnny, i doubt there is any
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| 10:50 | <moldy> ogra: can you test it some time after sunday? it's not really urgent, as far as i am concerned (i'm not using that package myself). it's just that i would have to setup a whole karmic ltsp environment in order to test this
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| 10:50 | <sbalneav> cyberorg: right, but since LTSP is something being BUILT USING kiwi, it would be nice to have a kiwi person here, or at least making regular contact with us, so that anything that they're doing with ltsp (like aoe) is flowing upstream.
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| 10:50 | <ogra> moldy, last sunday
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| 10:51 | <moldy> ogra: ah, ok
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| 10:51 | <ogra> moldy, in other words, karmic is done
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| 10:51 | * cyberorg is the only one using kiwi for ltsp | |
| 10:51 | <squarepeg> sc
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| 10:51 | <moldy> ogra: ahh, now i understand.
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| 10:51 | <squarepeg> scottmaccal, i got karmic on g4 after reinstall..
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| 10:51 | it looks awesome!
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| 10:51 | <moldy> ogra: so there is no way to get an update out for this issue for ubuntu users?
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| 10:52 | <cyberorg> aoe is not just for ltsp, kiwi provides boot images, aoe is one of its feature, same image(netboot) does nfs, nbd etc
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| 10:52 | <johnny> cyberorg, how come nobody else cares to do regular opensuse without kiwi for ltsp?
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| 10:53 | <cyberorg> johnny, probably because what we have works very well
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| 10:53 | <moldy> ogra: or does Luke Faraone's activity on the bug mean that he is going to handle the issue?
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| 10:53 | <johnny> i thought you just said you were the only user :)
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| 10:53 | lol
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| 10:53 | <squarepeg> stgraber:what a difference from our last horrorshow with..uhhh..intrepid on powerpc
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| 10:54 | <cyberorg> check out the latest iso ^^ you will see why, things just work out of box
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| 10:54 | <sbalneav> cyberorg: I understand that. But someone wrote that page. They did some work. Rather than have an ltsp developer have to 1) install opensuse 2) play with that sort of thing 3) figure out how to upstream it, it would be handy to have SOMEONE from the opensuse community who's OBVIOUSLY coding with/working with ltsp, to be here, have access to the code, and upstream this stuff, since they're the most familiar with it.
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| 10:55 | <johnny> sbalneav, thing is.. it comes for free with their setup it sounds like..
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| 10:55 | <cyberorg> sbalneav, i wrote that wiki page
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| 10:55 | <johnny> nothing ltsp specific
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| 10:55 | <cyberorg> johnny, now you got it
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| 10:55 | <johnny> cyberorg, i already had it..
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| 10:55 | i just don't like it
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| 10:56 | <cyberorg> when i started porting ltsp for opensuse, i read up muecow page, it said use "distro tools" so i picked kiwi, and it works very well
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| 10:56 | i dont have to patch ltsp or patch kiwi to get ltsp going
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| 10:56 | scottmaccal has quit IRC | |
| 10:56 | <johnny> or write an ltsp-build-client plugin even
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| 10:56 | <cyberorg> just have to build rpm packages
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| 10:56 | <sbalneav> cyberorg: OK, so YOU PLAYED WITH IT. You obviously sat down and modified things to get that working. The only way aoe gets discussed/implemented is if someone drives it. You've done it, since you wrote the page.
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| 10:57 | But you could write an LTSP plugin for build client to do it.
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| 10:57 | <ogra> moldy, no idea ... you can try to make the bug an SRU
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| 10:57 | <cyberorg> johnny, that is already upstream, ltsp-build-client that calls suse's tools
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| 10:57 | sbalneav, ^^
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| 10:57 | <johnny> cyberorg, nobody is maintaining that one..
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| 10:57 | <squarepeg> what repo should have ltsp-server-standalone..
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| 10:58 | <ogra> squarepeg, main in ubuntu
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| 10:58 | <cyberorg> johnny, because it works as it is, it just calls kiwi script
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| 10:58 | <ogra> cyberorg, it works for suse
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| 10:58 | not for anyone else
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| 10:58 | <squarepeg> doesnt seem any issue whether powerpc or i386 in sources.list
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| 10:59 | <cyberorg> ogra, i suppose suse plugin for ltsp upstream would work for suse only )
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| 10:59 | <ogra> cyberorg, if you had taken the effort to produce 20 lines of code for ltsp-build-client and ltsp-update image, everyone would have benefited and we wouldnt have to discuss kiwi here
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| 10:59 | i'm not talking about the suse plugin, i talk about aoe
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| 11:00 | <moldy> ogra: i'm taking it off my todo list, since i am not using the ubuntu package at the moment... if anyone else needs it fixed, he can work it out :) thank you anyway
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| 11:00 | <sbalneav> cyberorg: But that's what the plugin system is all about. Isolating the bits that each distro cares about.
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| 11:00 | scottmaccal has joined #ltsp | |
| 11:00 | <sbalneav> And the problem is, AFAIK, we have no-one maintaing the opensuse bits.
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| 11:00 | <johnny> sbalneav, but he just lets kiwi do all the ework :)
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| 11:01 | * sbalneav shrugs | |
| 11:01 | <johnny> sbalneav, there is nothing to maintain from the plugins standpoint..
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| 11:01 | * ogra goes and eats kiwi | |
| 11:01 | <cyberorg> ogra, aoe is one small feature implemented in kiwi, i am not kiwi developer or kiwi has no direct relation to ltsp, i just happen to use feature it provides to get ltsp working
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| 11:01 | <johnny> at the most.. it's a way to pass options to kiwi..
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| 11:01 | it has no other needs of maintenance
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| 11:01 | <ogra> <cyberorg> anyone exploring aoe at BTS?
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| 11:01 | <sbalneav> all I want is for every distro to have representation within LTSP, and get their voice heard, and have a way to make sure their distro gets supported adequately in upstream LTSP.
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| 11:01 | <ogra> so you obviously want it in ltsp
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| 11:01 | <cyberorg> johnny, i do not believe in reinventing the wheel, i use tools that work for me
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| 11:02 | <ogra> and you obviously know shell scripting
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| 11:02 | <sbalneav> I want this to be an INCLUSIVE process, where as distros come on board, we pick up developers.
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| 11:02 | <ogra> and you obviously looked into aore
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| 11:02 | *aoe
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| 11:02 | <johnny> sbalneav, basically he doesn't think he needs to use the plugin infrastructure and use suse's version of debian-installer/kickstart/etc
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| 11:02 | whatever that might be.. if there is one..
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| 11:02 | <cyberorg> ogra, yes, because at the moment opensuse is the only distro supporting it, it would be nice to have it on all distros if someone finds it useful or better than nbd
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| 11:02 | <johnny> sbalneav, the other option is for us all to use kiwi files ourselves.. :)
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| 11:02 | <ogra> cyberorg, there is only one reason why its not supported for everyone
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| 11:03 | <johnny> and drop all the debian-installler/kickstart/quickstart code :)
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| 11:03 | lol
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| 11:03 | <ogra> and thats because you refuse to participate properly upstream
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| 11:03 | <sbalneav> ogra: don't say it like that.
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| 11:03 | <ogra> and promote hacks with third party tools instead
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| 11:03 | <sbalneav> that's a little too harsh
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| 11:03 | garymc has quit IRC | |
| 11:03 | <johnny> on his point.. we could all just use kiwi..
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| 11:03 | to generate chroots
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| 11:03 | <cyberorg> ogra, i will repeat, i do not write code, just make use of whatever feature that is implement in kiwi and ltsp upstreams
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| 11:04 | pimpministerp has quit IRC | |
| 11:04 | <ogra> sbalneav, well, while it might sound harsh it is what is happening
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| 11:04 | primeministerp has joined #ltsp | |
| 11:04 | <johnny> cyberorg, i'm more interested in why nobody else in suse land cares about working with us
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| 11:04 | other than you
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| 11:04 | <cyberorg> it is better to do what is possible for me to do best than try to write hackish scripts
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| 11:04 | <ogra> they would be improved by others using them,
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| 11:05 | <johnny> ogra, we need somebody else who is actually a suse developer..
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| 11:05 | <Gadi> personally, I think cyberorg has been great in including experimental features fromupstream into isos for folks, so we can get feedback
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| 11:05 | <ogra> the point is if you submit a broken plugin for aoe, thats still better than nothing
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| 11:05 | <Gadi> that was great when we were first playing with localapps
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| 11:05 | <ogra> because then a fedora, debian or ubuntu dev who wants to use it will improve it
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| 11:05 | <sbalneav> Gadi++
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| 11:05 | <cyberorg> ogra, aoe is implemented in initrd, that is provided by kiwi, we do not even use opensuse's official initrd, there is no aoe patch to mkinitrd
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| 11:06 | <ogra> cyberorg, ltsp is implemented in initrd, thats provided by the distros
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| 11:06 | <johnny> ogra, hmm?
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| 11:06 | <ogra> and where its possible plugins are made common across the board
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| 11:06 | <cyberorg> ogra, yes, ltsp on opensuse does not use opensuse's initrd, but the one created by kiwi
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| 11:07 | <johnny> ogra, it's just like your initramfs-tools plugin it sounds like
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| 11:07 | <ogra> johnny, all the ltsp netbooting, be it nbd or nfs is implemented in initrd
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| 11:07 | <squarepeg> ahhh.better..servers must have been busy..
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| 11:07 | <Gadi> right - just like fedora doesn't use nbd
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| 11:07 | <johnny> ogra, i gotta wonder why nbd isn't alread in initramfs-tools upstream
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| 11:07 | <ogra> johnny, it is, debian uses it
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| 11:07 | <johnny> then why do we have what we have in ltsp-trunk?
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| 11:08 | <ogra> if you want to use debian with nbd it uses the implementation in upstream
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| 11:08 | <johnny> this discussion will never end until we all use the same thing :(
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| 11:08 | <ogra> because nobody converted it within the year or so that nbd in initramfs-tools is supported
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| 11:08 | <johnny> ah!
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| 11:09 | <ogra> and we have special additions in the ltsp one
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| 11:09 | <johnny> as most of this is already supported in dracut
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| 11:09 | <ogra> like the nbd monitor
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| 11:10 | <Gadi> well, nbd monitor is outside initramfs
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| 11:10 | <ogra> oh, did it move ?
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| 11:10 | <Gadi> its in the rootfs, I believe
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| 11:10 | <ogra> i thought its used before rootfs is mounted
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| 11:10 | <Gadi> yeah - stgraber disconnects nbd in the rootfs and reconnects
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| 11:10 | <ogra> for the reconnecting
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| 11:10 | ah
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| 11:11 | see, i'm out of ltsp coding for to long already :)
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| 11:11 | <Gadi> that way it stays in rootfs-space
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| 11:11 | :)
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| 11:11 | <ogra> i only glance over commits from time to time
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| 11:11 | <johnny> ah..
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| 11:11 | stgraber, so.. how about removing the initramfs stuff from ltsp-trunk then :)
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| 11:11 | * alkisg managed to use the "vanilla" ubuntu kernel to boot an nbd fat client - with only one minor bug fix... | |
| 11:12 | squarepeg has quit IRC | |
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| 11:12 | <ogra> anyway, cp ltsp_nbd ltsp_aoe ... 10 mins of hacking ... vi ltsp-update-image ... another ten mins of hacking ... any you have aoe support
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| 11:12 | squarepeg has joined #ltsp | |
| 11:12 | <johnny> so..how likely is it that things will work if i upgrade to karmic :)
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| 11:12 | <cliebow> x
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| 11:13 | <Gadi> right - ogra, I think cyberorg's motivation was to compare notes with other distros, but in order for him to do that, either he has to write aoe support for other distros and test it and encourage others to use it, or he can ask the devs if they are interested in exploring it
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| 11:13 | <ogra> johnny, if you rebuild your client it should all work ... modulo custom changes you made indeed
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| 11:13 | <Gadi> but, as we all know, developing stuff for distros we don't intend to use or maintain tends to be a back-burner thing
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| 11:13 | :)
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| 11:13 | <ogra> (custom changes to the desktop session etc ... which are not ltsp related)
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| 11:14 | Gadi, which is the reason i complain about kiwi from day one ... because it makes collaboration impossible
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| 11:14 | <Gadi> right
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| 11:14 | <IHS_Volunteer> What fun, Ubuntu 9.10's LTSP server isn't letting me login from the clients :/
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| 11:15 | <Gadi> but, then again, we cannot collaborate with fedora on nbd, really, either
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| 11:15 | :)
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| 11:15 | <alkisg> IHS_Volunteer: ltsp-update-sshkeys and ltsp-update-image?
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| 11:15 | <Gadi> there will just always be some pieces of LTSP that we will do differently
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| 11:15 | <ogra> no, but if fedora wanted they could quickly add some lines to make it work based on what exists
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| 11:15 | <Gadi> due to build systems and the like
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| 11:15 | <squarepeg> ahhh
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| 11:16 | <cliebow> ahhh++
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| 11:16 | <ogra> Gadi, right, but easy to adjust still
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| 11:16 | <IHS_Volunteer> alkisg, I'm running updates. I may worry about it tomorrow. 9.04 is still working fine on this server.
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| 11:16 | <ogra> Gadi, simply due to the fact that they all already use the same framework
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| 11:16 | <alkisg> IHS_Volunteer: I thought you said you couldn't login
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| 11:16 | <Gadi> ogra: true - sometimes it is not the ease of implementation, but the motivation
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| 11:16 | <ogra> indeed
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| 11:17 | johnny, upgrade -> dont forget you need to upgrade via jaunty
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| 11:17 | <IHS_Volunteer> alkisg, from the clients? no. I have 2 servers up and running, though, this server is fine, the other one running 9.10 isn't fine.
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| 11:17 | squarepeg has quit IRC | |
| 11:18 | <johnny> oh.. i have to upgrade to jaunt first..
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| 11:18 | ok.. i'll do that tonight then
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| 11:18 | <ogra> as always
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| 11:18 | <Gadi> now, if cyberorg said, hey guys, in kiwi it was easy for me to switch to AOE, and I found it to improve performance 1000%, I think you guys should check it out. I have no idea how to modify ubuntu to use it, but if you think its a simple mod, you should try it and we can talk about it
| |
| 11:18 | <johnny> i'm not used to missing distros..
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| 11:18 | <ogra> ubuntu only supports upgrades from one release to another
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| 11:18 | or LTS->LTS
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| 11:18 | <Gadi> that's probably how he would have wanted the conv to unfold
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| 11:18 | :)
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| 11:18 | <johnny> es.. lts->lts ..
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| 11:18 | that's what i was thinking..
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| 11:19 | <cyberorg> Gadi, i just said if anyone is exploring it for other distros :)
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| 11:19 | <johnny> but there wo'nt be an lts.. and i can't be 2 releases behind anymore
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| 11:19 | i don't blame cyberorg for using tools available to make something happen..
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| 11:19 | <ogra> johnny, just install hardy and wait 6 months :P
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| 11:19 | <johnny> i blame suse project for not really interacting with ltsp..
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| 11:19 | <ogra> ++
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| 11:19 | <IHS_Volunteer> johnny, the next Ubuntu LTS is 10.04
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| 11:19 | <johnny> i know
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| 11:19 | IHS_Volunteer, you don't have to tell me
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| 11:19 | <IHS_Volunteer> it will be.
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| 11:20 | <johnny> IHS_Volunteer, i've been bugging ogra for 2 years now.. i think i'm up to date :)
| |
| 11:20 | in knowing about ubuntu that is..
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| 11:20 | <cyberorg> johnny, i don't blame them either, when things are working no one wants to put real developers on it
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| 11:21 | <johnny> i guess..
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| 11:21 | :(
| |
| 11:21 | <IHS_Volunteer> I switched to ubuntu because it's what the High School chose, I was interning and had to support them. Now I'm volunteering, and supporting them Dx
| |
| 11:21 | * scottmaccal 'finishing up upgrade before taking LTSP plunge' | |
| 11:21 | <chrisinajar> !devo++
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| 11:21 | <alkisg> cyberorg: how *faster* is aoe from e.g. nbd or other methods? I see some speed reports in the site, but no speed *comparison*...
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| 11:21 | <johnny> ok.. i'm gonna upgrade to jaunty tonight then..
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| 11:21 | <cyberorg> johnny, see warren for example, he came it for just the amount of time it took to get it working on fedora
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| 11:22 | <johnny> he still comes back :)
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| 11:22 | <cyberorg> alkisg, hardly noticable
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| 11:22 | <johnny> and works with us over mailing list
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| 11:22 | <cyberorg> johnny, yes, so i am always here :)
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| 11:22 | <alkisg> So, are there any real benefits in using AoE?
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| 11:23 | <ogra> alkisg, as many as from iscsi
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| 11:23 | <chrisinajar> I can't help but read that as "area of effect"
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| 11:23 | <ogra> or from nbd
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| 11:23 | <cyberorg> alkisg, no tcp/ip overheads
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| 11:23 | <ogra> chrisinajar, not "Age of Empires" ?
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| 11:23 | :)
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| 11:23 | <alkisg> but if there's no noticable speed improvement, why not keep the overhead and keep the ability to work on different subnets, over wan etc?
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| 11:24 | <chrisinajar> ogra: that's what i thought of second, but from all the mmo's and rpgs and stuff... area of effect spells are so broken when a good tank build...
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| 11:24 | <johnny> especially if you just confuse people with all the options
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| 11:24 | * chrisinajar 's flyFF AoE character was so broken | |
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| 11:24 | <ogra> hah
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| 11:24 | <cyberorg> alkisg, yes, so requirement will decide if nfs, nbd or aoe is most efficient
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| 11:24 | alkisg, we use aoe if we want to serve multiple images of different kinds
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| 11:25 | <_UsUrPeR__> hey all. I am having a problem with the resolv.conf fix for localapps in Karmic 9.10 Beta.
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| 11:25 | specifically firefox
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| 11:25 | PMantis has left #ltsp | |
| 11:25 | <_UsUrPeR__> I have forwarding turned on, and have created a script to allow writing to resolv.conf on the ltsp image, but I don't seem to be forwarding properly
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| 11:26 | <ogra> why did you add a script ?
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| 11:26 | <IHS_Volunteer> I decided to go and update the ssh keys and update the image..still not working.
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| 11:27 | <_UsUrPeR__> ogra: is resolv.conf writable by default now? I'll admit: I did not check before adding the script to the chroot
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| 11:27 | <ogra> yes
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| 11:27 | <_UsUrPeR__> oh, wonderful!
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| 11:27 | ok, well I'll go about removing that
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| 11:27 | <ogra> its a bug stgraber fixed early during karmic development
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| 11:27 | <IHS_Volunteer> first, I noticed the NIC wasn't enabled in the GUI, after I enabled it, the system pxebooted. I tried to login, but the server didn't answer, apparently. :/
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| 11:27 | <_UsUrPeR__> mad props to the grabermeister
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| 11:27 | <ogra> :)
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| 11:28 | <_UsUrPeR__> ogra: ok, so I am still having a forwarding issue with the server. I was following along with my notes for 9.04 in order to allow forwarding
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| 11:28 | is there a change in there I am not aware of?
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| 11:28 | <ogra> no idea
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| 11:28 | but i dont think so
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| 11:29 | should still be one entry in sysctl.conf (or sysctl.d/<youname it>.conf
| |
| 11:29 | )
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| 11:29 | and one iptables rule or ufw setting
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| 11:30 | <IHS_Volunteer> how does one change the network interface LTSP is using? incase I want to put this hard drive in a more powerful computer with different NICs.
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| 11:30 | <ogra> in /etc/network/interfaces
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| 11:31 | <alkisg> IHS_Volunteer: I think the easiest way is to edit /etc/udev/rules.d/70-persistent-net.rules ...
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| 11:31 | <ogra> and probably /etc/udev/rules.d/70-persistent-net.rules if you move your install disk around
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| 11:31 | <_UsUrPeR__> IHS_Volunteer: in /etc/default/dhcp3-server you can specify a specific NIC
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| 11:31 | <ogra> _UsUrPeR_, DOMT !
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| 11:31 | *DONT even
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| 11:31 | <_UsUrPeR__> ?!?
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| 11:32 | <ogra> never ever edit /etc/default/dhcp3-server
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| 11:32 | that switches off the selfftests
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| 11:32 | <_UsUrPeR_> ogra: :O
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| 11:32 | <ogra> make sure your IP in /etc/network/interfaces matches the subnet declaration in the dhcp.conf
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| 11:32 | thats all that's needed
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| 11:33 | if you switch HW and want something else to be eth0 you edit /etc/udev/rules.d/70-persistent-net.rules (and only then)
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| 11:34 | <ogra> if you are sure you dont care about dhcpd checking your config for errors you set a NIC in /etc/default/dhcp3-server (and only then)
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| 11:35 | <IHS_Volunteer> I'm considering going from a socket 939 AMD Athlon 64 X2 @ 2.2ghz to a socket 755 Core 2 Duo 1.8ghz. From my understanding the C2D is going to perform a lot better.
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| 11:41 | <ogra> look ! ubuntu in the bbc news ! http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/default.stm
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| 11:41 | <lonchiton> alguien que me pueda ayudar?
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| 11:44 | o que me pueda orientar?
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| 11:44 | <stgraber> Gadi: heartbeat migrates the IP when one of the server is unreachable so no thin clients loose access to nbd
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| 11:47 | <lonchiton> can anyone help me?
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| 11:47 | <alkisg> !ask
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| 11:47 | <ltspbot> alkisg: "ask" is Don't ask to ask a question, simply ask it, and if someone knows the answer, they'll respond. Please hang around for at least 15 minutes after asking a question, as not everybody constantly monitors the channel.
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| 11:47 | <Gadi> right, but migrate it to be multihomed?
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| 11:47 | <alkisg> lonchiton: ^^
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| 11:47 | <Gadi> because you have some tftp servers pointing to 1 IP and some pointing to another
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| 11:52 | <lonchiton> i need to know how the thin client start from the usb?
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| 11:52 | <alkisg> lonchiton: it doesn't support "boot from lan" and you need to start it from the usb stick?
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| 11:54 | lonchiton: go there and download the "usb keychain disk image": http://rom-o-matic.net/gpxe/gpxe-0.9.9/contrib/rom-o-matic/
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| 11:58 | <lonchiton> which one nic type i choose?
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| 12:02 | <alkisg> gpxe:all-drivers
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| 12:02 | <lonchiton> can i burn this image on windows or linux?
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| 12:03 | <alkisg> burn? you mean copy to the usb?
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| 12:03 | <lonchiton> yes
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| 12:04 | this image it's bootable?
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| 12:05 | <alkisg> Yes, it's bootable
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| 12:05 | No os; it just boots from the network
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| 12:05 | But are you sure that this is what you need? I.e. your pc doesn't boot from the network, but it boots from a usb stick?
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| 12:12 | <lonchiton> to boot from a lan, i need a special network card?
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| 12:13 | <johnny> err
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| 12:27 | <johnny> hmm.. update-manager doesn't seem to have an option to download packages only
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| 12:35 | <ogra> you could use apt-get for that
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| 12:35 | and only run u-m later
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| 12:35 | i think apt-get -d dist-upgrade works (look at the manpage, not 100% sure though)
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| 12:36 | FoolsRun has joined #ltsp | |
| 12:37 | <FoolsRun> Hi, I just built a for-fun test environment LTSP on Ubuntu. I'm wondering if there's a way to disable sound for clients, especially at login.
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| 12:39 | <FoolsRun> anyone know?
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| 12:41 | <johnny> SOUND=F in /var/lib/tftpboot/ltsp/i386/lts.conf
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| 12:41 | create teh file with this
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| 12:41 | [default]
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| 12:41 | SOUND=F
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| 12:42 | <FoolsRun> do I rebuild the client after that?
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| 12:42 | <sbalneav_> Urk.
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| 12:42 | Back
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| 12:45 | sbalneav has joined #ltsp | |
| 12:45 | <sbalneav> THATS better
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| 12:46 | <johnny> no
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| 12:46 | <johnny> FoolsRun, that's why it's a seperate file.. so you don't have to rebuild the client when changing parameters
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| 12:48 | <FoolsRun> johnny: cool, thanks. I'm just getting a handle on how this all works so I wasn't sure if that was somehow compiled in
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| 12:48 | Currently running LTSP on an Acer Aspire One netbook :)
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| 12:49 | the server, that is.
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| 12:49 | <johnny> read
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| 12:49 | !docs
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| 12:49 | <ltspbot> johnny: "docs" is For the most current documentation, see http://wiki.ltsp.org/twiki/bin/view/Ltsp/LtspDocumentationUpstream
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| 12:49 | <johnny> you will learn lots
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| 12:49 | <FoolsRun> great, thanks!
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| 12:51 | <jammcq> sbalneav: ping
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| 12:52 | <sbalneav> jammcq: pong
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| 12:52 | <jammcq> prepare to leave around 2:15
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| 12:52 | <sbalneav> ok, so about 20 minutes.
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| 12:52 | got it.
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| 12:52 | <FoolsRun> Hmmm. With SOUND=N or SOUND=F (your suggestion and what the docs say) sound is still enabled at GDM
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| 12:52 | <jammcq> yep
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| 12:54 | <sbalneav> SOUND= only enables/disables sound on the thin client.
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| 12:54 | it doesn't touch GDM's config.
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| 12:54 | <FoolsRun> sbalneav: yeah, on the client I still have sound at the login screen
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| 12:54 | <sbalneav> Hmm, shouldn't
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| 12:54 | <FoolsRun> Or rather, really loud speaker hum which, along with the super loud login sound, I'm trying to get rid of
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| 12:55 | so that I don't have other cubes coming to figure out why I'm blasting jungle noises across the office ;)
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| 12:55 | <sbalneav> Speaker hum's a hardware issue.
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| 12:56 | You might try manipulating the _VOLUME parameters.
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| 12:56 | <FoolsRun> sbalneav: when I login and turn off sound the hum goes away
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| 12:56 | <sbalneav> So, you'vve got cheap speakers :)
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| 12:56 | <FoolsRun> is that in the same file? _VOLUME=0 ?
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| 12:57 | <sbalneav> where are you putting the parameters? in /var/lib/tftpboot/ltsp/i386?
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| 12:57 | <FoolsRun> yes
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| 12:57 | <sbalneav> can you paste your lts.conf file to the pastebot?
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| 12:58 | !pastebot
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| 12:58 | <ltspbot> sbalneav: "pastebot" is The LTSP pastebot is at http://pastebot.ltsp.org. Please paste all text longer than a line or two to the pastebot, as it helps to reduce traffic in the channel. A link to the content will be pasted in the channel.
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| 12:58 | <FoolsRun> I'd have to retype it --the LTSP server machine is on its own network right now
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| 12:58 | Hang on
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| 12:58 | <sbalneav> I want the original. Retypes don't help :)
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| 12:59 | <FoolsRun> there are only two lines :)
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| 12:59 | <sbalneav> I still want to see the original
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| 12:59 | <FoolsRun> SOUND=N and VOLUME=0
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| 12:59 | But VOLUME=0 just made the hiss go away
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| 12:59 | So I'm probably good
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| 12:59 | fasthans has joined #ltsp | |
| 12:59 | <sbalneav> only those two lines?
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| 12:59 | <FoolsRun> yup
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| 12:59 | well and [default]
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| 12:59 | <sbalneav> ok, so the file's wrong
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| 13:00 | ok, so now three lines
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| 13:00 | can YOU JUST PASTE THE FILE :)
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| 13:00 | <FoolsRun> I can't --it doesn't have internet and it would be a lot of config to give it internet right now. But it's working properly so I'm good.
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| 13:00 | the volume parameter fixed the problem
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| 13:01 | <sbalneav> Well, if you'e sitting on the thin client, it should be right there.
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| 13:01 | <FoolsRun> I'm not
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| 13:01 | I'm on another PC
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| 13:01 | different network
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| 13:01 | <sbalneav> ok
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| 13:01 | so it's fixed
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| 13:02 | <FoolsRun> yes
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| 13:02 | thanks :)
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| 13:12 | <sbalneav> heading to the airport
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| 13:12 | be on tonight.
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| 13:13 | <CAN-o-SPAM> sbalneav: still in MI?
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| 13:14 | <ogra> sbalneav, safe flight
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| 13:24 | <johnny> ogra, how can you only download packages?
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| 13:24 | for update-manager usagae that is..
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| 13:25 | <ogra> u-m uses the same apt cache dir
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| 13:25 | use apt :)
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| 13:25 | <ogra> apt-get -d
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| 13:25 | thats enforcing download only mode
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| 13:25 | <johnny> sure.. but how do i get all the packages i need for jaunty upgrade
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| 13:26 | <ogra> change your sources.list manually
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| 13:26 | "apt-get update && apt-get -d upgrade"
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| 13:26 | that should get you the majority of püackages
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| 13:26 | then change your sources.list back
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| 13:26 | <johnny> and then run update-manager
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| 13:26 | <ogra> run u-m and it will do its work
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| 13:26 | <johnny> ok.. sweet
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| 13:27 | i thought the ui used to have an option to only download packages.. but it must have been something else..
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| 13:28 | <ogra> i think thats synaptic
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| 13:36 | <scottmaccal> I did a Google search but no luck. I'm looking for the LTSP repository.
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| 13:36 | <johnny> it's in launchpad
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| 13:36 | launchpad.net
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| 13:36 | look for ltsp-trunk
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| 13:36 | <scottmaccal> ahh
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| 13:36 | OK
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| 13:36 | thank you.
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| 14:10 | <coordinador> hi, i havent fuse running on server and i cannot make it run
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| 14:23 | <coordinador> somebody?
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| 14:51 | <coordinador> i have a problem, when i put a usbdrive it appears in root session only
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| 14:52 | <coordinador> (it happen if i connect it in any terminal, always appeared on the terminal where root is logged in only)
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| 14:55 | <Lns> coordinador: sounds like your fstab file has that drive being mounted as root only..? just a guess though.
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| 14:57 | <coordinador> Lns, how can i check it?
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| 14:57 | in chroot or in server filesystem?
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| 14:57 | <Lns> cat /etc/fstab?
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| 14:58 | <coordinador> Lns, of course, but in chroot or in server filesystem?
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| 14:58 | ill try both
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| 15:00 | <Lns> coordinador: it'd be on the server..but if you haven't touched it, that's probably not the issue
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| 15:10 | <Gadi> guys - anyone have a link that talks about gdm dropping xdmcp support?
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| 15:15 | <jammcq> hey all
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| 15:15 | * vagrantc_ waves | |
| 15:16 | <jammcq> vagrantc_: how's it going?
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| 15:17 | * vagrantc_ entered into the world of laptops that aren't laughable | |
| 15:18 | <jammcq> something with some horsepower?
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| 15:18 | !seen sbalneav
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| 15:18 | <ltspbot> jammcq: sbalneav was last seen in #ltsp 2 hours, 6 minutes, and 2 seconds ago: <sbalneav> be on tonight.
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| 15:19 | coordinador has joined #ltsp | |
| 15:20 | Selveste1__ has quit IRC | |
| 15:21 | <Lns> Gadi: gdm is dropping xdmcp support?!
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| 15:25 | <Gadi> so I hear
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| 15:26 | from the guys in here
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| 15:26 | <coordinador> hi i have a problem, when i plug an usbdrive in any terminal, the icon appears in the terminal where root are logged only
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| 15:27 | <Gadi> never log in as root
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| 15:27 | Kicer86 has joined #ltsp | |
| 15:27 | <Gadi> that's a.
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| 15:27 | b. make sure the users are in the "fuse" group
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| 15:28 | (if you are on ubuntu)
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| 15:28 | <coordinador> well, yes, there is a root logged in. And all users are in fuse group
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| 15:29 | i had a similar problem where fuse was not loaded, but i forgot how to check this
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| 15:29 | <Gadi> grep fuse /proc/filesystems
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| 15:29 | <johnny> fuse is alwasy loaded.. it's built into the kernel on ubuntu
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| 15:29 | <coordinador> ok
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| 15:30 | <Gadi> depends what version he's running
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| 15:30 | <coordinador> then i will logout root
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| 15:30 | <johnny> but do what gadi says anyways..
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| 15:30 | Gadi, which version did it change?
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| 15:30 | woudl be good for me too know too :)
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| 15:30 | <coordinador> .. so i will back in a minute xD
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| 15:30 | coordinador has quit IRC | |
| 15:30 | <Gadi> not sure - but I think hardy was still a module
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| 15:30 | these are the trivia that ogra's good for
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| 15:30 | ;)
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| 15:31 | coordinador has joined #ltsp | |
| 15:31 | <coordinador> i am back
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| 15:31 | ok, ill check now
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| 15:32 | ok, still happen
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| 15:32 | <Gadi> grep fuse /proc/filesystems
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| 15:33 | <coordinador> Gadi, "nodev fuse"
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| 15:33 | <Gadi> are you logged in as a user right now?
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| 15:33 | <coordinador> Gadi, yes
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| 15:34 | <Gadi> with a USB drive inserted?
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| 15:34 | <coordinador> Gadi, no
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| 15:34 | <Gadi> insert the USB drive
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| 15:34 | <coordinador> ok
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| 15:34 | <Gadi> then, ls /media/$USER
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| 15:35 | <coordinador> oh god it appear there...
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| 15:35 | o...
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| 15:35 | ok...
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| 15:35 | ok... sorry for your time...
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| 15:35 | ok...
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| 15:36 | i disabled watch drives with gconf-editor so the users couldnt watch the server hds
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| 15:36 | ok....
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| 15:39 | ok, yes it was that
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| 15:39 | how to make that only usb local drives appear in desktop of users?
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| 15:42 | <Gadi> you can use LOCALDEV_DENY variables
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| 15:42 | Ill give you an example....
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| 15:43 | <johnny> Gadi, huh?
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| 15:43 | what does localdev deny have to do with devices plugged in on the server
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| 15:43 | must be magic :)
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| 15:44 | <Gadi> I thought he meant devices plugged in on the client
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| 15:44 | <johnny> read the commentes before
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| 15:44 | how to allow only usb local drives :)
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| 15:44 | <Gadi> oh, I read that to mean only *usb* and not other types
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| 15:44 | as opposed to only *local* and not server
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| 15:45 | <johnny> so.. is there a way?
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| 15:45 | 2 releases ago.. nobody could give me an answer..
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| 15:45 | <coordinador> yes, only local, so the users wont see the server drives
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| 15:45 | <johnny> i wanted the same thing
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| 15:45 | <Gadi> hmm...
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| 15:45 | well, if you don't want users to see the cdrom/floppy on the server, youcan take them out of the appropriate groups
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| 15:45 | I believe
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| 15:45 | <johnny> as i used the same machine for ltsp as the POS machine that was also used for web browsing, etc
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| 15:46 | Gadi, is that the same in intrepid? my users aren't even in those groups anymore
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| 15:46 | i thought more stuff happened through policykit instead of through groups..
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| 15:47 | <Gadi> hmm... I thought if the user is not in the cdrom group, then they would only see a cdrom icon if someone mounted it
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| 15:47 | in other words, if one person mounts it on the server, with perms for everyone, they all will see it
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| 15:48 | <coordinador> i have partitions in server, no cdrom neither floppy icon appeared but partitions does, is there a way to make that the partition icons doesnt appear in desktop of users?
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| 15:48 | <Gadi> but, if the permissions are such that the users cannot see it, gnome won't present it
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| 15:48 | <coordinador> humm
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| 15:48 | <johnny> i don't think that is possible coordinador .. if you can't see the partition you can't run em
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| 15:48 | but why should they appear on the desktop
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| 15:49 | perhaps there is an option not to show them on desktop
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| 15:50 | <coordinador> johnny, in gconf-editor ->apps->nautilus->desktop there is an option called "show volumes" or some, but it makes that the usblocal devices doesnt appear neither (that was my problem 5 minutes ago)
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| 15:50 | <johnny> ah.. then i dont' think there is anything you can do
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| 15:50 | unless you write code
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| 15:50 | <Gadi> another workaround to all of this is to turn off "show volumes" and use the mounter.d/ dir in ltspfs to create icons
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| 15:50 | <johnny> so i think you're just going to have to deal with it
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| 15:50 | ah..
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| 15:50 | that's total hack
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| 15:50 | <Gadi> my specialty
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| 15:51 | bieb has left #ltsp | |
| 15:51 | <Gadi> :)
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| 15:51 | <johnny> Gadi, sometimes you should just tell people no
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| 15:51 | vvinet has quit IRC | |
| 15:51 | <Gadi> its a personal failing
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| 15:51 | :)
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| 15:51 | <coordinador> johnny, what about if i make an link to /home/user/Drives ... and show the folder content..
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| 15:51 | hummm
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| 15:51 | <johnny> coordinador, i don't think your users will are that much.. nor does it cause much of a problem
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| 15:51 | <Gadi> thats another way to do it
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| 15:51 | <johnny> or any problem even :)
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| 15:52 | stuff like that will get you into trouble as the underlying environment changes
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| 15:52 | <coordinador> maybe if i change the icon of the server drives to a transparent pdf..
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| 15:52 | *png
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| 15:52 | lol
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| 15:52 | <johnny> don't do it.. :(
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| 15:52 | you'll still get text
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| 15:53 | just ignore the issue and move on
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| 15:53 | <coordinador> with a very little label like a dot
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| 15:53 | <Gadi> lol
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| 15:53 | <johnny> just don't
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| 15:54 | <Gadi> johnny: maybe he doesnt have the luxury of saying no
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| 15:54 | <johnny> you always do..
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| 15:54 | <coordinador> ok, may be... if i use a wallpaper with a very intrincated thing at one of it corner and put the icons there
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| 15:54 | <johnny> until you can beg fo money
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| 15:54 | to learn how to code it yourself and patch it out
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| 15:55 | <coordinador> i will do a wallpaper with a square or rectangle where it appeared all useful icons, and the rest of wallpaper will be a intrincated design where the server driver icons will be camuflated
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| 15:55 | <Gadi> maybe he says no, he loses the contract, without the contract, he can't feed his family, they need to move into a shelter and live off the gvmt cheese - and all because he didn't implement one little hack
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| 15:55 | do you want that on ur conscience?
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| 15:55 | :)
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| 15:56 | <coordinador> haah it could happen
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| 15:56 | <Gadi> see?
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| 15:56 | <johnny> some people are working too high above their paygrade..
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| 15:56 | that is what it sounds like to me
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| 15:56 | <Gadi> we have directories like mounter.d/ for just such an emergency
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| 15:57 | kinda sucks to buy into this whole open source idea and then not be able to hack it to do what you want
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| 15:58 | if only to keep our wives happy ;)
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| 15:59 | coordinador: here's a link to a different script using mounter.d/: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/LocaldevCommonGroupWorkaround
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| 16:00 | hack away, my friend
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| 16:01 | oh, and don't forget to file a bug somewhere someplace somehow describing your disgust that neither the gnome devs nor the ltsp devs have addressed this issue yet
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| 16:01 | :)
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| 16:01 | <johnny> Gadi, i think it can be more easily addressed via policykit
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| 16:01 | theoretically at least..
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| 16:01 | <Gadi> that and a second mortgage will get you on the subway in NY ;)
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| 16:02 | * Gadi loves all the new "platforms" and the theoretical utopia they bring | |
| 16:02 | <Gadi> :)
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| 16:02 | shawnp0wers has joined #ltsp | |
| 16:03 | <Gadi> meanwhile, I think policykit has actually decreased my remote desktop functionality in the short term
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| 16:03 | :)
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| 16:03 | can't wait to see how its going to help me this time around
| |
| 16:05 | ...and I still think "lucid" makes it sound like Ubuntu's waking up from a seriously long and bad hangover
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| 16:05 | where's sbalneav? I need a venting partner
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| 16:05 | :)
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| 16:06 | <jammcq> sbalneav is sitting on a plane, getting ready to take off from Detroit
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| 16:06 | <Gadi> so, what, he can't vent from the plane?
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| 16:07 | <jammcq> well... once he gets above 10,000 ft, he can pop open his lappy and vent
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| 16:07 | <Gadi> he better!
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| 16:07 | or don't get me started on that sbalneav guy...
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| 16:07 | ;)
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| 16:08 | so, with xdmcp going away, are we it?
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| 16:08 | are we Linux's answer to remote desktops?
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| 16:09 | if so, I think somebody should be sending us the memo
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| 16:09 | <jammcq> umm, yep
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| 16:09 | * Gadi nominates jammcq for some press time | |
| 16:09 | <Gadi> they should be sending you flowers
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| 16:11 | <jammcq> I'd rather have chocolate
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| 16:11 | <Gadi> the one, fundamental, instrumental feature of Linux, and its being stripped away with nary a mention
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| 16:11 | * Gadi shakes his head | |
| 16:11 | <jammcq> there's always KDM and XDM
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| 16:12 | and who needs xdmcp anyway? with passwords flying through the air without any encryption?
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| 16:12 | fotanus1 has quit IRC | |
| 16:12 | <Gadi> thats not the point
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| 16:12 | * jammcq wonders what is | |
| 16:12 | <Gadi> for sure, it should die a horrible death
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| 16:12 | but with not even a mention or a thought as to a replacement?
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| 16:13 | <jammcq> well...
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| 16:13 | <Gadi> shoved aside
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| 16:13 | to make room for what? prettier greeters?
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| 16:13 | <jammcq> do we know for sure that xdmcp is being dropped from gdm?
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| 16:13 | <Gadi> (no, but I like venting)
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| 16:13 | :)
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| 16:14 | <jammcq> besides, we all know that the 2 most important features of a linux distribution (ubuntu... cough cough) are boot speed and pretty greeter
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| 16:14 | <Gadi> oh yeah
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| 16:14 | we need LTSP to stand for Linux Terminal Server Protocol
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| 16:15 | and do it right
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| 16:15 | <johnny> uhm..
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| 16:15 | <Gadi> if we're *it*, then we could get it adopted
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| 16:15 | <CAN-o-SPAM> do "what" right?
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| 16:15 | <johnny> ssh -X ..
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| 16:15 | that's the replacement
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| 16:15 | just like we do..
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| 16:15 | <Gadi> exactly
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| 16:15 | but, how crappy is that?
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| 16:15 | <johnny> but that feature existed before ltsp
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| 16:15 | hmm?
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| 16:15 | isn't it better
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| 16:16 | <Gadi> the ssh guys wont even work with us to handle password expiry
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| 16:16 | <johnny> works over the internet in a sane way
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| 16:16 | <Gadi> and we're talking about writing a whole pam stack to work around it
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| 16:16 | <johnny> well.. that's a totally different problem..
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| 16:16 | why not just expect on the output?
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| 16:16 | i don't get what the big problem is
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| 16:16 | <jammcq> johnny: if there were a gui ssh client and it handled password aging, then yeah, that would be a suitable replacement for a greeter with xdmcp
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| 16:16 | <Gadi> the point is, a terminal services protocol, if it needs to be redone, would not be done with ssh -X
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| 16:16 | pmatulis has joined #ltsp | |
| 16:16 | <jammcq> cuz that's really pretty much all LDM is (or wants to be)
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| 16:17 | <Gadi> a proper protocol would handle the entire multimedia stream
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| 16:17 | and have a channel for client/server communications
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| 16:17 | all flowing through the same pipe
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| 16:17 | that was well controlled
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| 16:17 | ssh -X is convenient for us
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| 16:18 | but, even the ssh guys don't think it is a proper way to push a desktop
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| 16:18 | quick poll: how many people set LDM_DIRECTX?
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| 16:18 | ;)
| |
| 16:18 | why? because ssh -X kinda sucks
| |
| 16:19 | <johnny> well.. actually it is great
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| 16:19 | <Gadi> why? because it ain't designed to push out a desktop
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| 16:19 | <johnny> too great.. cuz of all the wrapping of encryption ,etc..
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| 16:19 | <coordinador> oh god i made a mistake
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| 16:19 | i did chmod 555 to /
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| 16:19 | <vmlintu> Gadi: me! ;)
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| 16:19 | <coordinador> unintentionally of course
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| 16:19 | <Gadi> coordinador: yeah, dont do that
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| 16:19 | ;)
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| 16:20 | <coordinador> haha i was typing another thing .. but i pressed enter accidentally
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| 16:20 | <Gadi> was it recursive?
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| 16:20 | <coordinador> Gadi could you please tell me which are the permissions (fortunately werent recursively)
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| 16:20 | <Gadi> try 755
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| 16:20 | <coordinador> *wasnt (my english sucks)
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| 16:20 | <Gadi> you should be all good
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| 16:21 | <coordinador> ok... ill try that
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| 16:21 | <Gadi> back to my rant...
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| 16:21 | <coordinador> the 5 is r-x right?
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| 16:21 | <Gadi> yeah
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| 16:21 | in binary
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| 16:21 | <coordinador> ok everything seems to be fine :)
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| 16:22 | thank you
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| 16:22 | pmatulis has quit IRC | |
| 16:22 | pmatulis has joined #ltsp | |
| 16:22 | CAN-o-SPAM has quit IRC | |
| 16:22 | <Gadi> johnny: I thought above everyone, you would appreciate the extent to which ssh -X is a hack
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| 16:22 | it is the ultimate hack
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| 16:22 | it is a hack for lack of a proper solution
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| 16:23 | <johnny> yep..
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| 16:23 | but i know i can't design such a solution
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| 16:23 | above my paygrade
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| 16:23 | <Gadi> hehe
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| 16:23 | we demand more from little ssh than I think any other user of it
| |
| 16:24 | and it still doesn't get us where we need to go
| |
| 16:24 | so, we hack it a bit more
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| 16:24 | I dunno
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| 16:25 | it is just sad to me, that the best multi-user OS in the world is stripping away all the multi-user functionality
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| 16:25 | and is leaving it to third parties to solve
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| 16:25 | in favor of competing as a desktop OS
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| 16:26 | or, I should say, a PC OS
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| 16:27 | <vmlintu> is there something else going away besides xdmcp from gdm?
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| 16:27 | <Gadi> probably - they're probably going to run it in the kernel :P
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| 16:28 | <vmlintu> uh
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| 16:28 | Kicer86 has quit IRC | |
| 16:28 | <jammcq> vmlintu: gadi was joking
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| 16:28 | <Gadi> I hope the logins are animated
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| 16:28 | <vmlintu> modprobe gdm
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| 16:28 | <Gadi> that would rock!
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| 16:29 | actually, I think we should focus on "mood logins"
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| 16:29 | mine would be dark at the moment
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| 16:29 | <vmlintu> I have to admit that I don't miss the xdmcp days from ltsp 4.2..
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| 16:29 | <Gadi> unless policysit tells it that dark mood logins are not permitted after 5PM EST
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| 16:30 | <vmlintu> But then again I was running xdmcp over ipsec to gdm to get it encrypted..
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| 16:30 | <sepski> Gadi, ldm_directx +1 (or else the weak cpu'd clients lag a lot) yes even with blowfish orand arcfour
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| 16:30 | coordinador has quit IRC | |
| 16:31 | <Gadi> frankly, if not for the LDM_DIRECTX hack, I think LTSP5 would have all of 3 users - and we would still be relying on xdmcp
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| 16:31 | <sepski> unfortunatly.. true
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| 16:32 | <Gadi> and it saddens me that we are so heavily reliant on ssh - as we have no control over it, nor do we have the ability to optimize it for our needs
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| 16:33 | <sepski> i wish for ssh -NX where it uses some hopefully in the future open and cleaned up nxlibs without the whole freenx nomachineNX on top
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| 16:33 | for my own intermittant remote desktop needs, not ltsp :)
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| 16:33 | <Gadi> a step in the right direction, but even then, video would suck
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| 16:34 | <Gadi> there's potential in ssh
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| 16:34 | for excellent hackage
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| 16:34 | and perhaps we will find good layers to add on top of it to achieve what we need
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| 16:35 | <vmlintu> What are the most pressing needs for ssh? Besides the password aging..
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| 16:35 | <Gadi> but, one thing XDMCP had that ssh doesn't, is a consistent framework for pushing out a remote desktop
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| 16:35 | otavio_ has quit IRC | |
| 16:35 | <Gadi> well, if you use ssh -X , the proxy degrades the video
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| 16:35 | so, an accelerated Xproxy would be nice
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| 16:36 | also, it makes it difficult for video players to sync audio and video
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| 16:36 | as the audio is not proxied
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| 16:36 | (another reason why videos perform better with directx)
| |
| 16:36 | so, really
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| 16:37 | aside from the communications channel that ssh offers
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| 16:37 | the tunneling of video and audio kinda stink
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| 16:37 | and we dont even tunnel audio atm
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| 16:37 | :)
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| 16:37 | next, we can talk about compression
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| 16:37 | Ahmuck has joined #ltsp | |
| 16:37 | <Gadi> thats where NX comes in
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| 16:37 | <vmlintu> How many users there are that require encryption of X?
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| 16:38 | <Gadi> NX has done a lot of good hacks on top of ssh
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| 16:38 | <sepski> wonder if someone with awsome math skills could conjure up a ssh cipher, optimized for remote desktops. and what difference it would make
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| 16:38 | <Gadi> encrypted X is a distro requirement
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| 16:38 | no distro would ship a product that is knowingly insecure
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| 16:38 | by design
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| 16:38 | <vmlintu> From previous experience I can say that using ipsec for X encryption works way better than ssh -X
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| 16:39 | <Gadi> as well it should
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| 16:39 | <vmlintu> but ipsec is pain in the ass for normal users..
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| 16:39 | <Gadi> it is not on the application layer
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| 16:39 | <vmlintu> Why should the encryption be on the application layer?
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| 16:39 | Ahmuck is now known as Ahmuck-Sr | |
| 16:39 | <Gadi> it shouldnt
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| 16:39 | <sepski> vmlintu, it should not. but it's what we have
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| 16:39 | <Gadi> its better if it isnt
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| 16:39 | thats why ipsec is better than ssh
| |
| 16:40 | but, as you say, ssh is set up by default
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| 16:40 | ipsec requires a bit more management
| |
| 16:40 | but nothing that couldn't be automated
| |
| 16:41 | but, so lets say you do that
| |
| 16:41 | what are you left with?
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| 16:41 | using ssh for just a communications tunnel
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| 16:41 | and not for tunneling traffic
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| 16:41 | so, that's where we're at with LDM_DIRECTX
| |
| 16:42 | but, Linux Terminal Services should be analogous to Citrix or Microsoft RDS
| |
| 16:42 | and should be better
| |
| 16:42 | because Linux has a longer legacy of being multi-user
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| 16:43 | but, the best we have is to use a protocol that was not designed to deliver a remote desktop
| |
| 16:43 | <vmlintu> any there any pressing problems with ssh as a communication tunnel?
| |
| 16:43 | <sepski> with cludges on top
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| 16:43 | <Gadi> and in order to achieve adequate performance, has to be bypassed!
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| 16:44 | jammcq has quit IRC | |
| 16:44 | <vmlintu> any=are
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| 16:44 | <Gadi> sure - by bypassing it, I cannot bring up a remote desktop unless it is in the same subnet
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| 16:45 | thats kind of a weak terminal services protocol, no?
| |
| 16:45 | otherwise, I need bi-directional routing everywhere in my LAN
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| 16:45 | and forget about going over the WAN
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| 16:45 | <vmlintu> true
| |
| 16:45 | <Gadi> is that the best we can do?
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| 16:46 | oh, but there's NX!
| |
| 16:46 | hello?
| |
| 16:46 | Linux needs a Linux solution
| |
| 16:46 | a standard Linux solution
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| 16:46 | with a focus
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| 16:47 | so, I can use the same protocol to connect to any flavor of Linux the same way
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| 16:47 | Sarten-X has quit IRC | |
| 16:47 | <Gadi> and that protocol is optimized to deliver the best remote desktop experience possible
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| 16:48 | and thats where we need to get to
| |
| 16:48 | maybe we can do that on top of ssh
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| 16:48 | <vmlintu> I'm waiting for the mosix-as-a-standard-solution that transfers my localapps between ubuntu and opensuse thin client..
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| 16:48 | <Gadi> or maybe we use ssh as just the communications tunnel
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| 16:48 | and create a separate protocol to tunnel through the good stuff
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| 16:49 | coordinador has joined #ltsp | |
| 16:49 | <Gadi> yeah, keep waiting
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| 16:49 | :)
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| 16:49 | <coordinador> hi, everything is fine :) but.... the scanner only works as root
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| 16:49 | <Gadi> if it doesn't happen here
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| 16:49 | in this room
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| 16:49 | it's not going to happen
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| 16:50 | or at least not in a standard way
| |
| 16:50 | thats why LTSP's mission to work across distros is so important
| |
| 16:50 | and why it is important to keep gathering members from all of these projects
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| 16:53 | <vmlintu> Is someone familiar how sunray does session transfers between the thin clients?
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| 16:54 | <coordinador> only root can scan, the scanner is plugged in the server
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| 16:55 | <Gadi> sunrays run the Xserver on the server
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| 16:55 | yms has joined #ltsp | |
| 16:55 | <Gadi> it uses a virtual video driver to drive the client's videocard
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| 16:56 | tunneled through - guess what - their own protocol
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| 16:57 | personally, I am disappointed in X.org
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| 16:57 | <yms> client cannot initiate internet
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| 16:57 | <Gadi> I think they totally dropped the ball on this one
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| 16:58 | <sepski> coordinador, are there not a sane group you need to be a member of ?
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| 16:58 | <yms> what do you mean?
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| 16:59 | <Gadi> yms: I was going to ask you the same question
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| 17:00 | <yms> initiating internet connection?
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| 17:00 | <Gadi> no - what do you mean?
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| 17:00 | is your server connected to the internet?
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| 17:01 | lucascoala has quit IRC | |
| 17:01 | <yms> is connected if l physically logged on
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| 17:02 | <coordinador> coordinador, the users belongs to saned group
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| 17:02 | sepski, , the users belongs to saned group
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| 17:02 | <Gadi> yms: I dont understand
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| 17:02 | you can log into the server, and not be able to get on the internet
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| 17:02 | <sepski> and have re login'd ofcourse. well check permisions on your device.
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| 17:03 | <coordinador> sepski, yes i relogged and cant scan
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| 17:03 | ill check the permissions
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| 17:03 | of device
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| 17:03 | <yms> logged from client and no internet unless logged at the server
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| 17:04 | <coordinador> sepski, which would be the route to device?
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| 17:04 | <Gadi> yms: using a standard LTSP setup?
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| 17:04 | <yms> yes
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| 17:04 | <sepski> coordinador, check your scanner software ?
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| 17:04 | <Gadi> so, you launch firefox from a thin client session, and you cannot go to google.com?
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| 17:04 | <coordinador> ok, ill check there
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| 17:05 | <Gadi> is that how you are checking it?
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| 17:05 | <yms> exactly
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| 17:05 | <Gadi> open a terminal window
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| 17:05 | and see if you can ping google.com
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| 17:05 | also, make sure you are not logged in at the server and the client at the same time as the same user
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| 17:06 | <yms> if i cannot ping google.com?
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| 17:07 | <Gadi> does it complain about unkown hostname?
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| 17:07 | or does the ping timeout?
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| 17:07 | <coordinador> sepski, i use xsane, when i go to information i get : /usb/PSC_1600...
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| 17:08 | <yms> thanks...i will try his another time...bye
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| 17:09 | yms has quit IRC | |
| 17:09 | <coordinador> sepski, i did ls -l /dev/bus/usb/001 and i get crw-rw-r-- 1 root lp 189, 2 2009-10-27 19:03 003
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| 17:10 | <vmlintu> I wonder if there would be any other way intercepting the X packets between client and server besides Xproxy..
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| 17:10 | <coordinador> it could be the scanner i think
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| 17:11 | <sepski> are your users member of the lp group as well ?
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| 17:11 | <- gone
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| 18:01 | <dtrask> Hey all....I need help....this is somewhat related to edubuntu as it is for Open1to1.org and the image that I create for school netbooks....
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| 18:01 | I have had schools complaining that students are creating "ad hoc" networks via network-manager and thus wreaking havoc on the school wireless network
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| 18:01 | does anyone know of a way (clean or hack...I'm desperate here) of disabling the ability to create...and/or connect to an ad-hoc wireless network?
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| 18:06 | <alkisg> Don't give users access to the network manager settings?
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| 18:06 | (I think that's the group "netdev")
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| 18:09 | <dtrask> alkisg: but do you think they'd still be able to join networks ok?
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| 18:10 | <alkisg> dtrask: I'm not sure I understand your network setup
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| 18:10 | Are you talking about netbooks?
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| 18:10 | <dtrask> alkisg: high school kids with netbooks
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| 18:10 | yes
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| 18:10 | <alkisg> Ah
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| 18:10 | <dtrask> open1to1.org
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| 18:10 | <alkisg> I don't know what that is
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| 18:10 | Do *they* have root access to their netbooks?
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| 18:11 | <dtrask> no
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| 18:11 | <alkisg> Do you have lots of different connections? Or could you just create some networkmanager system connections for them, and only let them choose between them?
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| 18:11 | <dtrask> ubuntu netbook remix....3 users....admin user....teacher....student.
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| 18:11 | alkisg: this is an image for users all over the world
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| 18:12 | I'm trying to disable it in the image for the student user account
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| 18:12 | <alkisg> Ah, so they're *supposed* to be able to join networks...
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| 18:13 | So you want to let them create new connections, just not ad-hoc ones?
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| 18:13 | Or would the teacher/admin be responsible for allowing the student to join a network?
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| 18:14 | <dtrask> kids should be able to join
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| 18:14 | most of the time SSID's would not be hidden
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| 18:27 | * alkisg can only think of an if-up.d script that would check the wireless nic mode, and if it's ad-hoc it would put it back to managed mode... | |
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| 20:40 | jammcq has joined #ltsp | |
| 20:40 | <jammcq> hello friends
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| 20:40 | !seen sbalneav
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| 20:40 | <ltspbot> jammcq: sbalneav was last seen in #ltsp 7 hours, 27 minutes, and 33 seconds ago: <sbalneav> be on tonight.
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| 21:32 | * vagrantc finally got to read gadi's rants earlier in the day | |
| 21:33 | <jammcq> yeah, gadi was in an "interesting" mode today
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| 21:33 | <vagrantc> it's *good*
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| 21:34 | though i apparently missed anything after 2:37 pacific time
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| 21:34 | <jammcq> hmm, that's about when I logged out.
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| 22:23 | <sbalneav> Evening all
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| 22:23 | <jammcq> Scotty !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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| 22:25 | <sbalneav> What was the substance of the rant?
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| 22:26 | Someone thumbnail it for me?
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| 22:26 | <jammcq> he was talking about GDM removing XDMCP
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| 22:26 | and there's no real replacement
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| 22:28 | and he thinks LTSP should have a protocol for delivering a remote desktop, including the multimedia part
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| 22:30 | <sbalneav> Umm, I thought we DO have a protocol for a remote desktop?
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| 22:31 | Unless I'm missing something, isn't that what we do?
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| 22:39 | <Ryan52> ssh is cheating.
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| 22:42 | <sbalneav> How is ssh'ing into a server and launching a remote desktop "cheating"?
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| 22:42 | I'm interested.
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| 22:45 | <jammcq> ssh doesn't replace GDM
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| 22:45 | there's really no good gui remote desktop solution
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| 22:46 | <sbalneav> wha?
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| 22:46 | <Ryan52> sbalneav: read Gadi's rant :P
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| 22:46 | <jammcq> sbalneav: wha wha?
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| 22:47 | <sbalneav> We replaced gdm with ldm.
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| 22:47 | <jammcq> he's saying that a "real" remote desktop protocol should handle auth,display,audio,video,devices, etc
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| 22:48 | ldm isn't perfect yet.
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| 22:49 | * sbalneav shakes head. | |
| 22:49 | <jammcq> I don't think he's entirely wrong
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| 22:50 | <sbalneav> yeah, ok
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| 22:50 | <jammcq> as for xdmcp, it was due to die a horrible death
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| 22:52 | <evon> I am a serious networking and server newb and a linux novice. Here's what I would like to do: at my workplace I am able to use my office computer to access a remote desktop at the head office. I can also access this desktop from any computer i choose. I would like to set up a similar system at my church but i am exploring the possibility of doing this with a linux-based server.
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| 22:52 | is this possible?
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| 22:53 | <sbalneav> Sure. You could do that with something like VNC or NX
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| 22:54 | <evon> sbalneav: what does vnc and NX stand for?
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| 22:54 | sbalneav: i am a serious newb sorry
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| 22:54 | <jammcq> vnc is horrible for actually trying to do any real work.
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| 22:54 | vnc == virtual network console
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| 22:54 | or virtual network computer
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| 22:54 | something like that
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| 22:55 | <evon> jammcq: ya the IT guy at work had no luck getting VNC working either and they have windows servers
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| 22:55 | jammcq: so what is NX?
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| 22:55 | <sbalneav> same thing as vnc
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| 22:56 | just a bit more efficient.
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| 22:56 | <jammcq> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NX_technology
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| 22:56 | <evon> jammcq: also does using a linux server for what i want to do make things too complicated? Am i just better off going strait windows?
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| 22:57 | <jammcq> I have no idea what you are trying to do, so I can't comment on whether Linux is a good choice
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| 22:57 | <evon> I am a serious networking and server newb and a linux novice. Here's what I would like to do: at my workplace I am able to use my office computer to access a remote desktop at the head office. I can also access this desktop from any computer i choose. I would like to set up a similar system at my church but i am exploring the possibility of doing this with a linux-based server.
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| 22:57 | that's what i want to do ;-)
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| 22:58 | <jammcq> nx might be a good solution for you
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| 22:58 | <foxbuntu> evon, I suggest going into detail about what applications or use cases the need for the Terminal Server would be
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| 22:58 | :)
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| 22:59 | <evon> foxubuntu: i need to be able to print to remote printers, MS office, Outlook, Explorer etc
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| 23:00 | <Ryan52> evon: "MS office, Outlook, Explorer etc" don't run on linux.
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| 23:00 | so..
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| 23:00 | you're trying to connect from linux computers?
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| 23:01 | <evon> no windows computers
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| 23:01 | <Ryan52> okay..
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| 23:01 | I'm confused how linux is relevant here?
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| 23:01 | you mean using a linux computer in the middle of the two windows computers? so you connect from a windows to a linux to a windows?
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| 23:01 | if so, leave out the linux computer and go directly, there's no reason.
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| 23:02 | <evon> ryan25: i would like the benefits of having the security and stability of a linux server but everyone in my church only uses windows. I was wondering if there is some way to allow the 2 to work together
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| 23:03 | Ryan52: i want people to be able to access a remote desktop from their home computers that have the aforementioned programs on it. in addition to being able to share files
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| 23:03 | <Ryan52> ah.
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| 23:03 | <foxbuntu> evon, I would highly suggest for that use case to just setup a Windows Terminal Server
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| 23:04 | evon, while I highly advocate the use of Linux, doing so just because its "Linux" is not always a good thing
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| 23:05 | <evon> foxubuntu: ok that's what I thought. However, if i just wanted a file server, linux would be a better option?
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| 23:06 | foxubuntu: people would be able to easily access these files remotely?
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| 23:07 | <foxbuntu> evon, what do you mean by remote?
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| 23:08 | <evon> foxubuntuL: remote = being able to access files on the server from my home, office or on the street as long as i have an internet connection
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| 23:08 | <foxbuntu> evon, managing a Linux server takes the skills of managing a Linux server if you get my drift, now don't get me wrong if you want to learn and take the time to do it, there are tons of people including myself that will gladly help answer your questions
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| 23:09 | evon, that is a very complicated issue
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| 23:09 | evon, there are many ways of doing it, but again, it will take time and work
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| 23:10 | evon, I do not want you to feel discouraged from using Linux to accomplish these things, but I do want to be clear that its not a simple task
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| 23:10 | <evon> foxubuntu: so you're saying i would would have to learn a lot to take on a task like that? right now I'm just trying to figure out if it's worth it
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| 23:12 | <foxbuntu> evon, yes, you will need to learn allot, so if you are willing to put in the time and learn, I say go for it, but if you are looking for a simple 'Plug-n-Play' type solution, Linux or Windows aside, there isnt one
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| 23:12 | er...
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| 23:13 | I shouldn't say there isn't one...
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| 23:13 | <evon> foxubuntu: well considering the people who will be using the workstations haven't even heard of linux and my lack of experience with servers and networking, i may have to go the windows route
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| 23:13 | <foxbuntu> I don't know enough about the requirements and restrictions to make that assumption
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| 23:14 | evon, thats likely the safe way of going about it
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| 23:14 | <evon> foxubuntu. well that sux. i was hoping to save my church some money
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| 23:14 | <foxbuntu> evon, however usually in those situations, Windows is nearly as big of an unknown as anything else
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| 23:15 | evon, join #foxmediasystems
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| 23:15 | <evon> foxubuntu: what is that?
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| 23:15 | <foxbuntu> its a channel I use for my business
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| 23:15 | <evon> foxubuntu: what will i find there?
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| 23:16 | <foxbuntu> I might be able to help
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| 23:16 | outside the topic of this channel
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| 23:16 | <evon> ok i've joined
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| 23:19 | <johnny22> test
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| 23:19 | anybody here using stgraber ppa?
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| 23:19 | coordinador has joined #ltsp | |
| 23:19 | <johnny22> it failed on finding the ubuntu ldm theme
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| 23:19 | <coordinador> hi
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| 23:21 | <johnny22> ah.. looks like it was missing an s, trying again
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| 23:23 | <coordinador> johnny22, you are the johnny22 from the afternoon, maybe around 18:00 ?
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| 23:23 | *are you
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| 23:23 | <johnny22> i was never johnny22
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| 23:23 | only johnny
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| 23:26 | roundcube == great webmail client
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| 23:47 | <coordinador> johnny22, ok johnny, did you finally resolve the issue with server drives in desktop of users?
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| 23:48 | <johnny22> no.. .. i just ignored it
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| 23:48 | i don't really care
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| 23:48 | i think it's no big deal
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| 23:48 | i noticed it.. spent 10 minutes trying to fix it.. realized it was not worth spending more time on. and moved on
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| 23:48 | then i got an ltsp only server.. where i hope they see all drives :)
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| 23:50 | <coordinador> i did put a screensaver with some intrincated parts, and then i made very little the icons and i finally put there in that intrincated part so icons are camuflated now
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| 23:50 | as you see, my english isnt my main language
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| 23:52 | <johnny22> well.. i didn't think the issue was worth that much effort
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| 23:53 | <coordinador> the situation is that the users are total newbies so the icon must be maintained to minimum
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| 23:53 | maybe 2 or 3 (open office, browser, home)
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| 23:54 | its like a cybercafe for digital alphabetization
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| 23:54 | for low resources people
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