IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.libera.chat (webchat)
Channel log from 30 December 2009 (all times are UTC)
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| 01:20 | <pizzapaul> hello..........
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| 01:21 | <Appiah> hello
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| 01:21 | <pizzapaul> are you awake..........
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| 01:21 | <Appiah> 08:22 here
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| 01:21 | <pizzapaul> im in texas...............
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| 01:21 | <Appiah> :)
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| 01:21 | <pizzapaul> what you running.....??
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| 01:21 | <Appiah> what?
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| 01:22 | <pizzapaul> i hit or miss these room...... but i have a linux box.......
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| 01:22 | kubuntu ubuntu opensuse......
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| 01:22 | kde gnome
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| 01:23 | opera,seamonkey,epephony,firefox, konkeror,chrome........
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| 01:23 | <Appiah> pleas
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| 01:23 | please*
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| 01:23 | stop doing so many dots
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| 01:23 | <pizzapaul> i have all of those running one 3 hard drives and a terabyte drive...........
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| 01:23 | <Appiah> Do you have a questions or something related to ltsp?
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| 01:24 | <pizzapaul> what is ltsp?
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| 01:24 | thats what i was asking what you runnin.?/
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| 01:25 | seems most linux run the same.........
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| 01:25 | <Appiah> I'm running LTSP on Ubuntu if that's what your asking
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| 01:26 | ltsp = Linux terminal server project
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| 01:27 | <pizzapaul> nice ive run very little ubuntu but i hear its nice i ordered a new disk a while back installed it but havent gone through all the install in yast yet
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| 01:27 | oh nice does it run high volume..........
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| 01:27 | sorry dots
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| 01:27 | chat haabbit
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| 01:28 | sometimes i studder keys too
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| 01:28 | my ubuntu didnt like video feeds
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| 01:28 | <Appiah> what do you mean with high volume?
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| 01:29 | <pizzapaul> you tube, chat rooms, porn
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| 01:29 | high volume feed like live video server with a lot of traffic...
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| 01:30 | can it run a chat room with 200 people?
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| 01:30 | <Appiah> I dont see what this has to do with LTSP
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| 01:30 | what are you trying to do?
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| 01:30 | <pizzapaul> get in a zen state with my linuz ..
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| 01:31 | linux*
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| 01:31 | <Appiah> I have no idea what a "zen state with linux" means
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| 01:31 | <pizzapaul> you said server i assumed you meant for many users.
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| 01:31 | <Appiah> yes terminal users
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| 01:31 | have you read anything on ltsp.org ?
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| 01:32 | or any ltsp documentation for that matter
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| 01:32 | <pizzapaul> nope i just found myself in this chat room just hanging out.
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| 01:32 | have a bunck of linux installed though...
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| 01:33 | kind of a frankinstien kernal..
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| 01:33 | total mutt..
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| 01:33 | <Appiah> I get the feeling you're not intressted in terminal solutions
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| 01:33 | <pizzapaul> so where you from.?
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| 01:33 | <Appiah> well I'm not here to "chat"
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| 01:34 | <pizzapaul> more interested in chatting linux..
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| 01:34 | i thought it was a chat room.
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| 01:34 | <Appiah> then try #linux or #ubuntu-chat
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| 01:34 | or #opensuse
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| 01:34 | or whatever dist you run
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| 01:34 | <pizzapaul> well im not an idiot..
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| 01:35 | <Appiah> sure you can hang around here and "chat" about linux . but I think most people here tend to stay on topic and talk and discuss LTSP
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| 01:37 | <pizzapaul> i like my kubuntu 9.8 kde4.3 opera10
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| 01:37 | have you tried opera?
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| 01:37 | shes sweet.
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| 01:38 | file compression zip on auto
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| 01:38 | major filter for speed
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| 08:41 | <sbalneav> Morning all
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| 09:21 | <zamba> when upgrading the ltsp server to karmic.. what do i have to do about the chroot?
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| 09:21 | build a new one?
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| 09:29 | <alkisg> zamba: yes
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| 09:29 | <zamba> alkisg: ok
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| 09:29 | <sbalneav> zamba: yeah, that's the best course of action.
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| 09:31 | <zamba> I: Base system installed successfully.
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| 09:31 | error: LTSP client installation ended abnormally
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| 09:31 | err..?
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| 09:31 | very informative
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| 09:31 | <alkisg> zamba: did you mv the old chroot ?
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| 09:31 | (or rm..)
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| 09:31 | <zamba> used --purge-chroot
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| 09:31 | # ltsp-build-client --dist karmic --arch i386 --purge-chroot --prompt-rootpass
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| 09:31 | that's the command i used
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| 09:32 | <alkisg> sudo
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| 09:32 | <zamba> indeed i have
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| 09:32 | running as root
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| 09:32 | <alkisg> Ah right
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| 09:32 | Why don't you skip the --dist, and do a normal rm, and skip --purge-chroot as well?
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| 09:33 | <zamba> nevermind.. i think i found the error
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| 09:33 | i included --locale in the previous run
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| 09:33 | there should be lists of valid options or at least references to where you can find that list
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| 09:33 | (see http://somethingsomething/ for list of valid locales)
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| 09:33 | for instance
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| 09:34 | i tried UTF-8, but that evidently yielded that error
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| 09:34 | <alkisg> locale -a?
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| 09:35 | <zamba> yeah, but still.. that should be included in --extra-help
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| 09:35 | that one can do 'locale -a' to find the list
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| 09:35 | <alkisg> What, the locale list?
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| 09:35 | <zamba> yeah
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| 09:35 | <alkisg> Nah...
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| 10:02 | <zamba> looks like the pulseaudio problem has been fixed in karmic
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| 10:02 | that's good
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| 14:42 | <K_Wolf> Hi people, happy new year to you all.
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| 14:45 | <sbalneav> Thanks
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| 14:45 | <K_Wolf> So, I having some troubles while booting ltsp client under k12Linux (Fedora 11). The client starts to load (appear the blue progress bar on dock) and after that there's no LDM. Lust black screen with "_" on left top.
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| 14:46 | <sbalneav> Sounds like a video problem.
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| 14:52 | <K_Wolf> sbalneav: I tried to declare the vesa on lts.conf. Using XSERVER = vesa.
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| 14:53 | The driver is the openchrome driver
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| 14:57 | <K_Wolf> Oh yeah, and i've tried using SCREEN_01 = shell, same problem. But in other hardwares i've no problem with other machines. Bad for me, coz I've payed for 10 PCs with same configuration.
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| 15:01 | <alkisg> K_Wolf: my hp thin client works fine in ubuntu with the openchrome driver, out of the box... so I guess you can also make it work on fedora.
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| 15:03 | <K_Wolf> Let me try it too.
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| 15:03 | <alkisg> vagrantc: got some time to help in solving a dependencies problem? (pulseaudio vs libsdl1.2debian-alsa vs libsdl1.2debian-pulseaudio...)
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| 15:20 | <vagrantc> alkisg: still need a hand with the depedency problems?
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| 15:20 | <alkisg> vagrantc: very!
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| 15:21 | <vagrantc> alkisg: tell me more about your problems...
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| 15:21 | <alkisg> It's like this: pulseaudio is installed by default in ubuntu, but not in kubuntu/xubuntu.
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| 15:21 | Now, libsdl1.2debian depends on libsdl1.2debian-alsa | libsdl1.2debian-pulseaudio
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| 15:22 | Finally, when a person tries to install tuxpaint, this depends on libsdl1.2debian, and this pulls the -alsa flavor
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| 15:22 | This breaks tuxpaint, sound doesn't work and it even hangs. It also happens with other 380 apps that use sdl :(
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| 15:22 | * Lns can confirm that | |
| 15:23 | <vagrantc> alkisg: at what level are you trying to fix it? in the packages?
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| 15:23 | <alkisg> Yup
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| 15:23 | <vagrantc> workarounds?
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| 15:23 | <alkisg> So I thought of putting "conflicts: libsdl1.2debian-alsa" on pulseaudio
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| 15:23 | <vagrantc> alkisg: that's not ideal, but it could work.
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| 15:24 | <alkisg> This way, whenever pulseaudio was installed, if the user tried to install e.g. tuxpaint, it would prefer the -pulse flavor
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| 15:24 | Unfortunately, I either did something wrong, or it just doesn't work. apt-get complains that it can't install tuxpaint. But aptitude finds the correct solution, with score=50.
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| 15:24 | <vagrantc> alkisg: that will make it incompatible with [kx]ubunutu
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| 15:24 | no?
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| 15:24 | <alkisg> No, it wouldn't... (if it worked)
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| 15:25 | As [kx]ubuntu do not use pulseaudio
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| 15:25 | <vagrantc> alkisg: but wouldn't they need libsdl1.2debian-alsa?
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| 15:26 | <alkisg> Yes, and it would be pulled in normally, wouldn't it?
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| 15:26 | <vagrantc> not if they're trying to install the package that conflicts with it
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| 15:26 | <alkisg> tuxpaint depends on libsdl1.2debian which depends on libsdl1.2debian-alsa
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| 15:26 | I'd only change pulseaudio, which is never used in k/xubuntu
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| 15:26 | <vagrantc> alkisg: you trying to adjust the dependencies of tuxpaint?
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| 15:26 | <alkisg> Nope, I was *only* trying to modify the pulseaudio package
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| 15:27 | I added a single conflicts line there
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| 15:27 | So x/kubuntu wouldn't be affected at all, as they don't have pulseaudio
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| 15:27 | <vagrantc> alkisg: i would try to change the tuxpaint dependencies to prefer libsdl1.2debian-pulse | libsdl1.2debian
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| 15:27 | <alkisg> That would break x/kubuntu
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| 15:27 | <vagrantc> alkisg: unless they install something that would need pulseaudio...
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| 15:28 | <alkisg> vagrantc: also, there are 380+ packages out there that depend on libsdl1.2debian, we couldn't change them all..
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| 15:28 | <vagrantc> alkisg: but maybe there's just a difference in philosophy in Debian/Ubuntu ...
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| 15:28 | <alkisg> Does debian use pulseaudio by default?
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| 15:29 | <vagrantc> it's not about defaults, it's about proper relationships ... just because you use pulseaudio doesn't mean you shouldn't be able to use packages from some other sound system, and vice-versa.
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| 15:30 | <alkisg> That's not about packaging, it's a pulseaudio problem
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| 15:30 | <vagrantc> it might be harder to install and get configured properly, but putting in a conflict that doesn't technically conlict seems wrong.
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| 15:30 | <alkisg> Pulse wants the card by itself, without sharing it or something like that...
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| 15:30 | So you can't have an app access the sound card with pulse, and another one with alsa
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| 15:30 | <vagrantc> there's simple alsa -> pulse compatibility layers
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| 15:31 | <alkisg> Well if it was to be solved in a source code level, I guess the libsdl people should do that, but that's the same situation in both debian + ubuntu...
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| 15:32 | But I thought a solution could also be found at the packaging level
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| 15:32 | I.e., when pulseaudio is installed, prefer libsdl1.2debian-pulse over libsdl1.2debian-alsa as a dependency
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| 15:33 | <vagrantc> i think for newer versions, it woudl be more appropirate to use "Breaks" instead of "Conflicts" ...
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| 15:33 | <alkisg> Hmmm I can try that...
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| 15:33 | <vagrantc> but it's still the same issue ... there should be no hard conflicts.
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| 15:33 | alkisg: what about having pulseaudio recommend libsdl1.2debian-pulse
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| 15:34 | <alkisg> They don't want that, as not all people use sdl
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| 15:34 | <vagrantc> it's not a hard dependency, but *should* be installed together.
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| 15:34 | <alkisg> So the default ubuntu installation uses pulseaudio but no sdl at all
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| 15:34 | The problem arises when someone tries to install any sdl app
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| 15:35 | <alkisg> In "Depends: A | B", is it always A that gets installed? Or could "Suggests" or something make apt prefer B?
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| 15:36 | <vagrantc> alkisg: one use case would be someone running xubuntu/kubuntu as an LTSP server ... would they be able to use the pulseaudio layers from a thin client?
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| 15:36 | alkisg: A is installed if B is not already installed.
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| 15:37 | though with some versions of apt/aptitude/synaptic/?? the logic gets a bit messed up and they attempt to always install A even if B is installed... but that's a bug.
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| 15:37 | <alkisg> It would go like this: 1) default kubuntu installation, no pulse, no sdl. 2) install tuxpaint => libsdl-alsa. 3) install pulse => would (hopefully) remove libsdl-alsa and install libsdl-pulse. So hopefully, it should work in all cases.
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| 15:37 | And that's what aptitude does. But apt-get just complains :(
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| 15:38 | <vagrantc> gotta love that different package managers handle this differently :)
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| 15:38 | <alkisg> Yeah sure it's a bless for teachers trying to solve their "sound not working" problems... :D
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| 15:39 | * alkisg started to love aptitude in the last few hours, though! | |
| 15:40 | <vagrantc> aptitude definitely had/has some nice features over apt ... but supporting two implementations of what should be exactly the same is ugly.
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| 15:40 | the "try alternate paths to install foo" stuff is really useful.
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| 15:41 | <alkisg> I wonder why apt-get complains, thought. It's a big "depends A|B|C|D|E|F" line, and also a big "conflicts A|B|C|D|E" line, but shouldn't it be able to see that "F" solves the problem?
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| 15:42 | (with commas in conflicts)
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| 15:43 | <vagrantc> the default behavior is to not remove any packages that are installed, i think...
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| 15:44 | <alkisg> OK, but none was installed when I tried it...
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| 15:45 | * alkisg tries again, with "Breaks" this time | |
| 15:45 | <vagrantc> what version of apt? maybe ubuntu sync'ed it with some unresolved bugs...
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| 15:47 | <alkisg> 0.7.25ubuntu2
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| 15:48 | <vagrantc> 0.7.25 in debian... so only 0-2 ubuntu improvements, theoretically
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| 15:50 | <alkisg> "Normally a Breaks entry will have an "earlier than" version clause;" vs "A Conflicts entry should almost never have an "earlier than" version clause"
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| 15:50 | <vagrantc> gives rooms for exceptions
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| 15:51 | <alkisg> OK, leaving it withought "earlier than" clause... ty Vagrant
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| 16:43 | <alkisg> @#&^ I must be doing something wrong, but the packaging systems also must be doing something wrong...
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| 16:43 | Aptitude is willing to install the package, but it says that "The following packages are BROKEN: pulseaudio", and then it segfaults :(
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| 16:45 | <Ryan52> Breaks doesn't really do anything different than Conflicts...
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| 16:45 | (except that they're opposites)
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| 16:46 | <Ryan52> alkisg: your approach seems wrong to me...just because you have pulseaudio installed doesn't mean that you're using it.
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| 16:47 | <alkisg> Ryan52: any suggestions?
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| 16:49 | <Ryan52> document somewhere that people need to install the pulse package if that's what they're using.
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| 16:50 | or fix sdl to dynamically figure out which to use.
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| 16:50 | but I'm guessing that's a difficult task ;)
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| 16:51 | <alkisg> I wouldn't like to leave the dependencies problem to documentation... :-/
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| 16:51 | <Ryan52> it's not a dependency thing tho.
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| 16:51 | there's no way that apt can know whether the user is using pulse or not.
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| 16:51 | <alkisg> Well, it's a default ubuntu installation, isn't it?
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| 16:52 | If the user doent's change any defaults, why would he need to read some documentation to know that "sudo apt-get install tuxpaint" doesn't work?
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| 16:52 | <Ryan52> if so, then perhaps ubuntu should switch the dependencies so that pulse is the default sdl variant to use.
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| 16:52 | <alkisg> That's what I'm trying to do.
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| 16:52 | Exactly.
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| 16:52 | <Ryan52> okay, so switch the alternative dependencies around.
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| 16:52 | change A|B to B|A
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| 16:53 | <alkisg> I can't, because kubuntu and xubuntu use the same repository
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| 16:53 | <Ryan52> hm.
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| 16:53 | <alkisg> Nice, isn't it? :(
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| 16:53 | <vagrantc> alkisg: because it's broken on ubuntu, you can't break kubuntu or xubuntu?
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| 16:53 | <Ryan52> what about making pulse "Recommend: libsdl-pulse-whatever-its-called"
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| 16:54 | <alkisg> vagrantc: that's what they tell me... I also insisted on having the "official flavor" working *first*, but they didn't like it :(
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| 16:54 | * vagrantc notes that this is remarkably similar to the earlier conversation | |
| 16:54 | <alkisg> Ryan52: they don't like that either, because by default nothing sdl related is installed. Pulse is installed, though.
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| 16:55 | <Ryan52> alkisg: then lets fix sdl :)
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| 16:55 | <alkisg> Ugh, if it comes to that, I'll take the documentation route :D
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| 16:55 | <Ryan52> I do wonder how difficult it would be to do that.
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| 16:56 | <alkisg> Well a user may have both alsa and pulse installed, what would sdl use?
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| 16:56 | <Ryan52> it would check the environment to determine whether or not they're using
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| 16:56 | <alkisg> It would end up in a configuration file, that would need to be different in [k/x]ubuntu etc
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| 16:56 | <Ryan52> pulseaudio
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| 16:56 | no.
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| 16:57 | I'm pretty sure there's a way to tell whether pulseaudio is being used.
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| 16:57 | <alkisg> That would have to be true for all of the alternatives, oss, nas etc
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| 16:57 | <Ryan52> alkisg: I thought it was just pulseaudio and alsa?
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| 16:58 | <alkisg> No, in reality it is: libsdl1.2debian-alsa | libsdl1.2debian-all | libsdl1.2debian-esd | libsdl1.2debian-oss | libsdl1.2debian-nas | libsdl1.2debian-pulseaudio
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| 16:59 | (that's the libsdl1.2debian Depends line)
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| 16:59 | So I tried to have pulseaudio conflict with all of those except for -pulse, but that doesn't work, apt isn't smart enough to automatically find a solution there.
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| 17:00 | <Ryan52> oh jebus.
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| 17:01 | alkisg: that's not correct anyway. I may have pulseaudio installed but be using esd anyway.
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| 17:01 | <alkisg> Well it would still work on the default cases, whereas now it doesn't
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| 17:01 | <Ryan52> this can't be handled by apt, unless all of the sound daemons conflict with each other. which there's no reason to.
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| 17:02 | it would work in the default cases, but it would break the corner cases. where it does work now.
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| 17:02 | <alkisg> They do
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| 17:02 | E.g. libsdl1.2debian-pulseaudio conflicts with the others
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| 17:02 | <Ryan52> alkisg: the sound daemons themselves.
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| 17:02 | not the sdl libraries.
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| 17:02 | but the pulseaudio package would have to conflict with esd, oss, etc.
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| 17:02 | it works everywhere now, as long as the user installs the correct sdl package.
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| 17:03 | <alkisg> Well OK, but the problem is in the sdl libraries. You can have as many sound daemons you want, but only 1 sdl lirabry
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| 17:03 | <Ryan52> alkisg: how does libsdl1.2debian-all work?
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| 17:03 | <alkisg> Good question :)
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| 17:04 | I see some weird conflicts, replaces etc, I can't make out what it says
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| 17:04 | try it: apt-cache depends libsdl1.2debian-all
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| 17:04 | <Ryan52> yes, I know.
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| 17:05 | I'm asking, does it work correctly out of the box for ubuntu?
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| 17:05 | I see the conflicts and replaces, all of the libsdl1.2debian-foo packages have that...
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| 17:05 | <alkisg> You mean if all ubuntu variants used that, instead of the other specific libraries?
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| 17:06 | <Ryan52> yes.
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| 17:06 | <alkisg> (i.e. first in the depends line?)
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| 17:06 | <Ryan52> yes.
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| 17:06 | <alkisg> Hmm that doesn't sound bad... we'd need to test this in all the ubuntu variants
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| 17:06 | <Ryan52> does it actually work tho?
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| 17:07 | <alkisg> I need to test this, I don't remember
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| 17:07 | <Ryan52> alkisg: let me know what you end up doing so that I can fix it in Debian too. I think I can upload SDL without getting people mad at me..
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| 17:07 | :P
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| 17:07 | <alkisg> OK, I'll see if it works and I'll tell you. Thanks for the idea!
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| 17:09 | <alkisg> Ryan52: nope, it doesn't work :(
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| 17:09 | It tried to use alsa, and hanged.
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| 17:11 | <Ryan52> alkisg: so maybe it's just buggy? fix the bug. :)
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| 17:11 | <alkisg> No that's a general problem, pulse wants the card all by itself I think (or something similar)
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| 17:14 | <Ryan52> heh, let crimsun handle it.
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| 17:15 | if he thinks he knows how..
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| 17:41 | <alkisg> Ryan52: well if pulse and alsa are fixed so that both can be used simultaneously, then the end user wouldn't care whatever tuxpaint used...
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| 17:41 | So in that case, it would become an LTSP-specific problem, because LTSP (only) would required libsdl to use pulse. If it comes to that, maybe we could put it as a dependency of LTSP :P :D
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| 17:44 | * vagrantc stays out of it | |
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| 18:06 | <Lns> This is where it'd be cool to have a definitive "something" that says "Hi, I'm an LTSP server, that's all I do" so stuff like this can be handled automatically..maybe...
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| 18:11 | <vagrantc> that's the theory behind the ltsp-server-standalone package.
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| 18:11 | well, sort off.
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| 18:11 | of
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| 18:12 | also why i pushed for an ldm-server package ... i try to include in the depends/recommends all the relevent bits.
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| 18:18 | <Lns> ah
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| 18:18 | yeah...guess a recommend wouldn't be an adequate workaround
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