IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.libera.chat (webchat)
Channel log from 23 May 2014 (all times are UTC)
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| 07:50 | <bucko> anybody here to help? :)
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| 08:06 | <monkwitdafunk> Hi bucko
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| 14:11 | <dowobeha> Hi, I'm new here. I'm considering setting up a new classroom of 30-40 seats with LTSP. I was wondering if there might be any good resources for helping me estimate the server needs for that size classroom.
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| 14:11 | <alkisg> dowobeha: first question is, thin or fat clients?
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| 14:11 | I.e. what cpu/ram on the clients?
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| 14:11 | !fatclients
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| 14:11 | <ltsp> fatclients: You may find some info about the Ubuntu/LTSP implementation of fat clients at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/FatClients
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| 14:11 | <alkisg> !ltsp-pnp
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| 14:11 | <ltsp> ltsp-pnp: ltsp-pnp is an alternative (upstream) method to maintain LTSP installations for thin and fat clients that doesn't involve chroots: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/ltsp-pnp
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| 14:11 | <dowobeha> I haven't purchased the clients yet
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| 14:12 | But I was looking at the LTSP Term 1620 or LTSP Term 1720 terminals
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| 14:13 | <||cw> dowobeha: you don't currently have PCs?
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| 14:13 | <dowobeha> correct. this is for a brand new classroom
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| 14:13 | I could simply purchase new PCs for each seat. I'm investigating the feasability of LTSP as an alternative to that.
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| 14:14 | <||cw> what's the workload? LTSP Term's should be able to handle most fat client worlkloads
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| 14:15 | <dowobeha> This will be a classroom for computational linguistics. So mostly programming assignments.
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| 14:15 | <alkisg> dowobeha: if you buy new PCs or thin clients, that are good enough to run linux locally, then your server can be very modest
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| 14:15 | <||cw> also consider off-lease refurb desktops, you should be able to get core duo, or even core2's, with no-os install, for about $100
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| 14:16 | <alkisg> You don't need local disks, you netboot them, and the benefit is central management
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| 14:16 | <||cw> and they would be great fat clients
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| 14:16 | <alkisg> Centralized disk, authentication etc
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| 14:16 | <dowobeha> So what sort of server specs would be needed to support 40 LTSP Terms?
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| 14:17 | <alkisg> Fat clients or thin clients?
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| 14:17 | For fat clients, any modern pc with gigabit networking will do
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| 14:17 | <||cw> as fat clients, just fast disks, especially if you'll be doing program compiling
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| 14:17 | <dowobeha> ||cw: you mean, just make sure that the server has fast disks?
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| 14:18 | <alkisg> No need for fast disk, just gigabit networking
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| 14:18 | <||cw> yes, because fat client's won't have disks
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| 14:18 | <dowobeha> what about for thin clients?
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| 14:18 | <||cw> alkisg: even if the clients are compiling programs?
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| 14:18 | <alkisg> ||cw: the whole nbd image is cached on the server
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| 14:18 | <||cw> dowobeha: depends on the workload.
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| 14:18 | alkisg: ok, but compiling...
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| 14:18 | <alkisg> So the fast/slow disk only matters for /home, not for root
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| 14:18 | <||cw> creating lots of new files...
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| 14:19 | right, I mean for /home
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| 14:19 | <alkisg> Classroom workloads don't have such file patterns...
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| 14:19 | Any recent disk is ok for 40 fat clients
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| 14:19 | <||cw> I think we're defining "classroom" differently
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| 14:20 | and maybe I'm misunderstanding that's needed for the class
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| 14:20 | <alkisg> A server for 40 (true) thin clients, would need 2-3 gigabit network cards bonded, and 4-8 cores...
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| 14:20 | <dowobeha> So in terms of spec'ing out the server, does the bottleneck tend to be memory? CPU?
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| 14:20 | <alkisg> Here they mostly need office, internet and multimedia
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| 14:20 | dowobeha: server for thin or fat clients? It makes a huge difference...
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| 14:20 | <||cw> alkisg: right, but this is "computational linguistics. So mostly programming assignments"
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| 14:21 | <alkisg> ||cw: running eclipse and compiling "my-first-program.java" is the same as any other app.. :)
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| 14:21 | <||cw> dowobeha: it also depends on the class's usage patterns. if everyone is going to be compiling at the same time or not
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| 14:21 | <alkisg> But sure yeah it depends on the usage
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| 14:21 | <dowobeha> Let's assume thin clients (or whatever would require the most server capabilities). I'm trying to get a feel for worst-case scenario in terms of server requirements
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| 14:21 | <alkisg> !flash
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| 14:21 | <ltsp> flash: Yes, flash sucks. An HD full screen 30 fps video needs 2.5 Gbps bandwidth (1920×1080×4×30)! Make sure you have LDM_DIRECTX=True in your lts.conf file, or if it's just youtube you're after, try some flash replacing plugin like http://linterna-magica.nongnu.org
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| 14:21 | <alkisg> The worst case scenario, is 100 gbps server speed
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| 14:21 | <||cw> alkisg: yeah, but 30 people on thin clients compiling at once...
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| 14:22 | <alkisg> I.e. you can never fully satisfy 40 thin clients
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| 14:22 | But you can easily satisfy 40 fat clients...
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| 14:22 | ||cw: compiling firstprogram.java doesn't require much disk access on the server
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| 14:23 | Headers are in the squashfs image
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| 14:23 | <dowobeha> alkisg: And the difference is that on a fat client, most or all programs execute on the client instead of the server?
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| 14:23 | <alkisg> Right. Both are diskless.
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| 14:23 | <||cw> I'm not familiar without how java compiles
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| 14:23 | I am familiar with C++, and it makes a load of object files
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| 14:26 | <dowobeha> So if each client is just running a terminal and running commands on the terminal (compiling and running code) is there any difference in terms of server load compared with a scenario where everybody has a stand-alone PC and has ssh'd in to the server and is doing the same task there?
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| 14:27 | <alkisg> Yes, graphical terminal output needs CPU
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| 14:27 | Thin clients need CPU to have the screens over the network
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| 14:27 | !directx
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| 14:27 | <ltsp> directx: If you want to turn off encryption to the workstation, which will speed up performance at the cost of security, you need to specify LDM_DIRECTX=True in your lts.conf file. Type !docs in IRC to get a link to the current documentation
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| 14:28 | <alkisg> If you turn off directx, then ok it's about similar to what you described
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| 14:28 | *turn on
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| 14:28 | <dowobeha> OK
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| 14:29 | So the reason that 40 thin clients isn't practical is what? Lack of CPU? Lack of memory? Lack of network bandwidth?
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| 14:29 | <alkisg> Usually, lack of network bandwidth AND cpu
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| 14:30 | <dowobeha> OK
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| 14:30 | So it seems that running programs locally on the client would alleviate the CPU issue
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| 14:30 | <alkisg> And the network bandwidth issue
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| 14:30 | <dowobeha> How does it alleviate bandwidth issues?
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| 14:31 | <alkisg> E.g. youtube needs 2 Gbps on thin clients, 2 Mbps on fat
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| 14:31 | 1000 times less
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| 14:31 | Only disk is accessed over the network, screens aren't...
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| 14:32 | <dowobeha> I don't follow why youtube needs less bandwidth on the fat client. The same amount of content needs to be streamed over the network
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| 14:32 | <alkisg> No
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| 14:32 | For fat clients, you get compressed video, like if it was read from a file
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| 14:32 | E.g. 1 hour of video = 500 MB, a divx or mp4 file
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| 14:33 | For thin clients, the uncompressed screens of the video go through the network
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| 14:33 | <dowobeha> ooh
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| 14:33 | <alkisg> It's like a .dv file from a camera, and actually worse
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| 14:33 | <dowobeha> I see
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| 14:33 | <alkisg> So, 1 hour of video, 500 GB or so...
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| 14:34 | <dowobeha> Got it
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| 14:36 | <alkisg> So in that classroom, the students will use shell and vi and compile programs via the console?
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| 14:36 | Or they'll use graphical applications and multimedia, and compile things from e.g. eclipse?
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| 14:36 | <dowobeha> Not sure yet. Either is possible
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| 14:37 | I'm thinking about both scenarios
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| 14:37 | <alkisg> You can switch that very easily, LTSP_FATCLIENT=True/False in lts.conf
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| 14:38 | <dowobeha> so in either case, if the programs are run on the client, then when files are accessed, how are the served to the clients? NFS?
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| 14:38 | <alkisg> For thin clients, the programs run on the server
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| 14:38 | <||cw> nfs or nbd (network block device)
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| 14:38 | <alkisg> ^ for root (/), and sshfs or nfs for /home
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| 14:39 | <dowobeha> what is ^
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| 14:39 | <alkisg> What ||cw said above :)
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| 14:39 | ^ = above
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| 14:39 | <dowobeha> thanks
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| 14:39 | <alkisg> Buy i3 with 4 gb ram for clients
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| 14:39 | Then make one of them the "server"
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| 14:40 | <dowobeha> oh
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| 14:40 | <alkisg> Run that for 1 year, and if you think you still need a server, buy one
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| 14:40 | * alkisg is guessing you won't need one :) | |
| 14:40 | <dowobeha> I was expecting the need for a multicore with 32-128 GB of RAM for the server
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| 14:40 | <||cw> I'd still be worried about compiling, but nfs with async would probably do OK
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| 14:40 | <alkisg> That ^ above with fat clients will work much better than the server you say, with thin clients
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| 14:41 | <||cw> dowobeha: have you profiled the software they will use yet?
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| 14:42 | <dowobeha> ||cw: No, I haven't had the chance to do that yet.
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| 14:42 | <||cw> and just to be clear, it does run in lunux right?
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| 14:42 | linux
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| 14:42 | <dowobeha> ||cw: yes
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| 14:43 | alkisg: Do you have a recommendation for client hardware? As I said, so far all I've looked at are the LTSP terms
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| 14:43 | <alkisg> dowobeha: we're buying desktop pcs here, but diskless
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| 14:44 | Any recent i3 is more than enough for whatever we throw at it
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| 14:44 | And we usually buy i5's for the servers, and if they have enough money, i7 with ssd for /home
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| 14:44 | For 40 clients I'd also use 2 gigabit nics on the server, bonded
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| 14:44 | But it's not strictly necessary, I have schools with 50 fat clients and 1 nic
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| 14:45 | <dowobeha> alksig: Are you talking i5/i7 for the server or the clients?
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| 14:45 | <alkisg> i3 = clients, i5/i7 = server
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| 14:46 | <||cw> alkisg: have you used an intel NUC yet?
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| 14:46 | <alkisg> ||cw: I'd love to, but they're a bit more expensive
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| 14:46 | <||cw> they have a dual core celeron for about $140 USD
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| 14:47 | N2820 cpu
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| 14:47 | <alkisg> I'm using cpubenchmark.net to compare cpus
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| 14:47 | http://www.cpubenchmark.net/cpu.php?cpu=Intel+Celeron+N2820+%40+2.13GHz
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| 14:47 | 1046 mark
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| 14:48 | http://www.cpubenchmark.net/cpu.php?cpu=Intel+Core+i3-3220+@+3.30GHz
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| 14:48 | 4228
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| 14:48 | 4 times faster...
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| 14:48 | <||cw> yeah, 7W tdp limits it a lot
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| 14:48 | <alkisg> For clients, 1000 is ok for today's needs. Can handle browsing with a couple of ads.
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| 14:48 | I think in 2 years it won't be enough
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| 14:48 | <dowobeha> Do either of you have any specific recommendations for client machines?
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| 14:49 | <alkisg> 4000 mark => one can run a lot of tabs, a couple of VMs etc, and still feel snappy
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| 14:49 | dowobeha: i3 with intel or ati graphics, that's about it
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| 14:49 | No need to be more specific...
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| 14:51 | <dowobeha> alkisg: Sure. As I said, I'm a newbie in this area. I was just asking in case you knew offhand any particular manufacturer that would make a system like that.
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| 14:52 | <alkisg> dowobeha: if you're looking for desktop pcs, you can walk into any store and 80% of the PCs you see there will be i*
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| 14:52 | For small factor... dunno, check ZOTAC ZBOX ID88, it ships with i3
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| 14:54 | It even has dual nic, making it fine for server too :D
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| 14:54 | Of course it costs twice as much as the respective desktop pc...
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| 14:55 | This also ships with i3: INTEL NUC (NEXT UNIT OF COMPUTING) KIT DC3217IYE
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| 14:55 | 250€ here
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| 14:56 | <alkisg> 2302 cpubenchmark mark
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| 14:57 | While the zotac with i3-3220T has 3728 mark
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| 14:59 | <dowobeha> OK. So it sounds like you'd recommend something more powerful than the LTSP Terms I had been looking at
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| 15:01 | http://www.cpubenchmark.net/cpu.php?cpu=Intel+Atom+N270+%40+1.60GHz&id=614
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| 15:01 | 282 cpubenchmank
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| 15:01 | <championofcyrodi> I'm using the Intel NUC D34010WYK, and it's amazing as a thick client.
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| 15:01 | <championofcyrodi> I hardly ever have to wait for anything to load. (1Gbps Ether of course)
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| 15:02 | <alkisg> dowobeha: 300 cpubenchmark is the same as 4-year old netbooks
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| 15:02 | I.e. they cannot play youtube without dropped frames
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| 15:03 | <dowobeha> championofcyrodi: Thanks for the data point
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| 15:03 | <alkisg> I wouldn't recomment anything with less than 1000 mark for a fat or standalone client
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| 15:04 | <dowobeha> ok
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| 15:04 | Looks like the Intel NUCs are kits that don't come with any RAM, if I'm reading newegg correctly...
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| 15:04 | <alkisg> The NUC that championofcyrodi mentioned has 2508 mark
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| 15:04 | <||cw> yeah, barebones
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| 15:04 | <championofcyrodi> dowobeha: Currently I have 7 NUCs being used by developers running chrome w/ ~20 tabs, intelliJ, thunderbird, terminal, pidgin, maven, ant, ... doing builds.. etc.
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| 15:05 | with the NUC, make sure you get the Low Voltage RAM (DDR3L, 3.5v)
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| 15:05 | <ogra_> now you just need the matching server http://www.zdnet.com/canonicals-cloud-in-a-box-the-ubuntu-orange-box-7000029575/
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| 15:05 | ;)
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| 15:05 | <championofcyrodi> thats 3.5 volts
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| 15:06 | <||cw> the hell is that thing
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| 15:06 | <||cw> looks like a jobsite radio
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| 15:06 | * ogra_ would love only the case for a power amp in the living room | |
| 15:07 | <||cw> ok that thing is kinda hilarious. I seen lugable clusters before, but not as a finished commercial product
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| 15:08 | <championofcyrodi> ogra_: Our biggest issue right now with LTSP thick clients, are that the developer IDE trying to sync Home folder files which are network mounted. IntelliJ cannot 'watch' the files. I've been given direction to look into using VMs with intelliJ and all developer tools with NX client/server for remote desktop.
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| 15:09 | so the NUCs will be used for pandora, browsing, research, etc... while the VM will be used for actual development
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| 15:09 | <||cw> championofcyrodi: sshfs or nfs?
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| 15:09 | <championofcyrodi> sshfs
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| 15:09 | <||cw> tried nfs?
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| 15:09 | <ogra_> just because of missing inotify ?
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| 15:10 | yeah, try nfs instead
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| 15:10 | <championofcyrodi> Some of the senior engineers around here said NFS has the same issue.
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| 15:10 | Maven repositories get quite large and have a lot of small jar files.
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| 15:11 | apparently it get slow over time. Which is why my initial testing was 'OK', but feedback from people who used network mounted home folders for developer tools was poor.
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| 15:12 | <||cw> is it that another user is changing the files?
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| 15:12 | linux nfs is kinda weak unless you use async, especially for small files ad high IOPS
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| 15:12 | <championofcyrodi> http://www.jayway.com/2011/09/26/intellij-idea-performance-improvement/ <-nutshell
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| 15:13 | (First quote) "In some environments user’s home directory is located on the mapped network drive which in unacceptable for IntelliJ IDEA. You’ll notice the huge performance degradation."
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| 15:13 | <alkisg> If really needed, you can use block devices for /home/username
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| 15:13 | <||cw> other options would be a cluster filesystem
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| 15:13 | <alkisg> E.g. one nbd block device per user...
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| 15:14 | Mount on login, unmount on logout
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| 15:16 | <championofcyrodi> I'm still new to LTSP, so I'll have to do some reading and investigating before tackling that.
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| 15:18 | and unfortunately, like everything else... they want all the bells and whistles yesterday
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| 18:17 | <Tony> Does anybody know of a similar project for vmware horizon view?
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| 18:17 | <vagrantc> what does it do?
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| 18:18 | <Tony> i want to repurpose hardware for vmware view
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| 18:19 | <vagrantc> i don't know anything about vmware view, but if you described the features you want, maybe i know of something similar...
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| 18:19 | or someone else...
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| 18:35 | <championofcyrodi> just looked at a promo video for vmware view (was curious)
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| 18:35 | sounds a lot like citrix, nomachineNX, etc...
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| 18:35 | VMs with remote desktop that doesnt lag
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| 18:36 | we're using KVM (centos) with opennx
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| 18:36 | and opennx client on the LTSP thick client image.
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| 18:37 | correction... freenx on the VMs with KVM, opennx on the ltsp images.
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| 18:37 | so i can watch youtube videos on the VMs OS with sound and no lag
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| 18:37 | (not that i normally would, but as a test)
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| 18:59 | <||cw> championofcyrodi: the difference is that the target isn't a shared terminal server, but a virtual machine, one for each user
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| 18:59 | and it can dynamically spool up and down VMs from templates as user load needs
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| 18:59 | and all the vmware HA and DRS stuff is available too
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| 19:04 | <championofcyrodi> IIcw: right. Thats what we are using for developers (because of the sshfs/nfs home folder issue earlier)
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| 19:05 | each developer has a client PC (thick/actual desktop), and their own VM they connect with via NX
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| 19:05 | I'm trying to replace all the actual desktops with LTSP Thick Clients
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| 19:05 | to reduce cost and power consumption
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| 19:08 | ||cw: i'm familiar with the HA features... but not DRS
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| 19:09 | ahh... like the fair share scheduler in solaris zones. (resource pools)
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| 19:09 | well.. the fair share scheduler is specific to CPU... but i get the idea
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| 19:16 | <||cw> yeah, makes sure a host doens't get overloaded
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| 20:17 | <bennabiy> alkisg, vagrantc: I am about halfway done with a test version involving a hash, but did not have as much time this week as I thought. We are building a Hempcrete house and needed to spend a few days working on that.
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| 20:17 | I will be back after the weekend and probably have something for you next week
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| 20:26 | <vagrantc> bennabiy: it's a better offer than anyone else has made :)
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