IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.libera.chat (webchat)
Channel log from 3 March 2009 (all times are UTC)
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| 00:10 | <alkisg> Yeeeeeah!!! `ethtool -A eth0 autoneg off rx off` actually works, I now have 600Mbps overall bandwidth with seven 100Mbps clients! :) This is life-saving, someone should put it on the wiki.
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| 02:06 | <asmok1> Hello, ogra?
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| 02:10 | <asmok> Hello again, ogra?
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| 02:12 | I have Jaunty Alpha 5 online and ready do some more testing if you/somebody want so
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| 02:12 | <asmok> Bug is this one: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ltsp/+bug/335767
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| 02:14 | Yes I know it is early morning in here Finland...
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| 02:31 | <asmok> I'll be back later in afternoon, bye.
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| 03:17 | <JosefAssad> moin
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| 03:23 | I was wondering, does the LTSP community consider any particular study to be recommended to someone who is interested in cost advantages of LTSP over, say, Linux fat clients or a Windows-based network?
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| 03:23 | I'm guessing the cost advantage issue arises frequently wrt LTSP...
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| 04:01 | <Appiah> JosefAssad: that would be very intressting
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| 04:02 | haven't seen one =/
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| 04:02 | <JosefAssad> Really?
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| 04:03 | Hm. Well I'll tell you what. If I can talk this client into an LTSP architecture, I'll see if they will release a TCO estimation. They're pretty open.
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| 04:04 | <ogra> you want a TCO overview for thin client setups ?
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| 04:04 | <Appiah> In the future I hope I can do the same
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| 04:04 | <ogra> there are many
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| 04:04 | <Appiah> ogra: for just LTSP? or thin client setups in general?
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| 04:05 | <ogra> http://www.ubuntu.com/products/whatisubuntu/serveredition/technologies/ltsp
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| 04:05 | click the "recent studies" link
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| 04:05 | thats about the best thing out there imhp
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| 04:05 | *imho
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| 04:06 | shows mainly the "green" factors though, there should be 100s of TCO studies wrt maintenance ...
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| 04:06 | (google is your friend ;) )
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| 04:06 | <Appiah> "wrt" ?
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| 04:07 | <ogra> with regard to (an abbreviation you use to type less :P )
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| 04:07 | <Appiah> ah ;)
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| 04:08 | well green factors is big factor these days
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| 04:09 | <ogra> right, thats why i focused on it in the ubuntu page when i wrote that stuff with our marketing guys ...
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| 04:10 | <Appiah> ogra : have you seen the [Ltsp-discuss] "Beware Ethernet Flow Control" ?
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| 04:10 | <ogra> only with half an eye
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| 04:10 | i dont do much ltsp work anymore, stgraber took over most of my duties
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| 04:11 | <Appiah> ah oki
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| 04:11 | well I'm gonna try to look into to that more ...
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| 04:11 | <ogra> but its known that managed switches can cause bad probs :)
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| 04:12 | <Appiah> ye but the thing here seams to be on the servers NIC
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| 04:12 | <ogra> that didnt change since the very first ltsp implementation
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| 04:12 | * ogra will look at the thread if he finds time later | |
| 04:13 | <ogra> i thought i read someone who ran managed cisco switches ....
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| 04:13 | <Appiah> it's really intresting if it REALLY improves the network ~10 times
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| 04:13 | but ye , I'll look into it myself later on
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| 04:14 | <ogra> "Turning off Flow Control (using the web interface on our Netgear smart
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| 04:14 | switches) made it so one terminal's network traffic doesn't affect the
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| 04:14 | rest of the terminals."
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| 04:33 | <JosefAssad> ogra: very useful, thank you
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| 04:33 | I tend to think the whole green thing gets overplayed wrt IT...
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| 04:33 | I do a lot of enterprise IT and it usually boils down to consolidation/virtualisation
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| 04:34 | don't see a lot of Intel Atoms in the data center yet :)
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| 04:36 | and yes, there's a chance I should be shot for using expressions like "enterprise IT"... :/
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| 05:22 | <alkisg> I've just created an ubuntu wiki page for the ethernet-flow-control problem, suggestions (e.g. for where to put the `ethtool -A` command) are greatly appreciated: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/FlowControl
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| 05:29 | <sep> are there any methods for avoiding sabotage ? eg one user makes himeself with copy paste a 170000 pages openoffice document and crawls the server
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| 05:30 | i was thinking different cpu schedulers or similar. but any other methods ?
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| 05:31 | <alkisg> sep, with ulimit?
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| 05:32 | <sep> for each and every user ?
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| 05:32 | could probably be done
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| 05:33 | <alkisg> I think if you put a CPU limit per shell, it affects all users
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| 05:33 | But I've never done anything like that, just read about it, so I can't help! :)
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| 05:37 | sep, in Ubuntu it's in /etc/security/limits.conf
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| 06:11 | <muttley> how use a normal ubuntu desktop installation as ltsp client
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| 06:11 | ?
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| 06:12 | <Appiah> hmm
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| 06:12 | on gdm you can select login to server
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| 06:12 | after enabling it
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| 06:13 | it will use xdmcp then
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| 06:13 | you might need to enable it on the server
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| 06:13 | <muttley> i try the command: X -query host
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| 06:14 | but i see only the cursor
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| 06:14 | <Appiah> ?
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| 06:15 | <muttley> how does ltsp client work if xdcmp disabled?
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| 06:16 | <Appiah> http://www.yolinux.com/TUTORIALS/images/gdmsetup_XDMCP.gif try that
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| 06:17 | <muttley> thank you...
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| 06:17 | but i don't understand how ltsp server work without xdmcp disabled?
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| 06:17 | <Appiah> on the client
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| 06:18 | <muttley> xdmcp is disabled on ltsp server by default?
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| 06:19 | <Appiah> no idea
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| 06:20 | <muttley> thank you anyway
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| 06:23 | <alkisg> muttley: xdmcp is disabled by default, and ltsp doesn't use xdmcp
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| 06:23 | (disabled = at least on my ubuntu...)
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| 06:24 | <muttley> ok, and what procol use ltsp
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| 06:24 | <alkisg> muttley: ssh -X, or ssh -Y if LDM_DIRECTX=true
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| 06:25 | And also pulse for sound, ltspfs, ldm and some other things
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| 06:25 | <cyberorg> Appiah, muttley we use X over ssh, so xdmcp is not required
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| 06:25 | <muttley> i would connect with a "fat client" on my lstp server
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| 06:25 | now understand
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| 06:26 | <Appiah> either you launch each application with ssh -X
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| 06:26 | or you setup your gdm to login to that server
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| 06:26 | (xdmcp)
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| 06:26 | <ojsat22> can anybody point me to afaq/tutorial on how to connect freenx/no machine to ltsp? is it possible?
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| 06:27 | <alkisg> Can ltsp-client be installed in fat clients? (in the supported distros) ?
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| 06:27 | It would be nice if it could...
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| 06:28 | <Appiah> in ubuntu there's a ltsp-client package if im not mistaken
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| 06:28 | <alkisg> Yes, but I think it also involves nbd stuff, so I don't think it would work for fat clients... :(
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| 06:28 | <Appiah> hmm
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| 06:30 | <muttley> i need only remote interface and audio if possible
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| 06:31 | * Appiah just got an crazy idea | |
| 06:31 | <Appiah> launch a second x-server , have it use gdm with xdmcp to connect to the ltsp-server
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| 06:32 | <devilbues> Hi can anybody help me? I have this thin-client geode graphics based driver and it freezes after a while when using USB mouse
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| 06:32 | with ps/2 mouse works fine
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| 06:32 | <Appiah> so you can switch between local comp and ltsp-session with alt+f7 / alt+f8 or whatever
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| 06:32 | devilbues: does it stop once and never works again , or does it freeze/unfreeze ?
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| 06:33 | <devilbues> never works again, I have to reboot the thin client. Usually this happens after screensaver kicks in
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| 06:34 | <muttley> (i try...)
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| 06:34 | <Appiah> did you try to go to console and check dmesg when the mouse stopped working devilbues ?
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| 06:35 | <devilbues> Appiah, nopes
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| 06:35 | <Appiah> you might find something
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| 06:35 | <devilbues> I'll try that
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| 06:47 | <muttley> but in run-level of ltsp client what is the command for start remote login manager?
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| 08:01 | <wigwam> hello
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| 08:02 | after changing ip address of my ltsp server, thin clients booting fails... tftp timeout
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| 08:02 | plz what have to be changed after changing IP?
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| 08:05 | <mushroomblue> wigwam: I usually had to update ssh keys
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| 08:05 | and update image
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| 08:08 | Yesterday, I learned that Virtualbox 2.1 and LTSP don't play nice together
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| 08:09 | PXE boots awesome
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| 08:10 | <mushroomblue> but once it gets into the OS part, it dies dishonorably
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| 08:37 | <alkisg> Is there any way to run gdm remotely, without using `X -query server` (i.e., without the need to enable XDMCP in the server)? I tried `ssh -X server` and then `gdm`, but it didn't work...
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| 08:39 | <ogra> alkisg, gdm has an ssh mode ... but you need to run it locally
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| 08:41 | <alkisg> ogra, you saw all this LTSP-lite discussion in the mailing list? I thought it'd be easy to at least get a gdm and sound in non-ltsp distros... But running gdm locally would need lots of RAM :(
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| 08:41 | <ogra> right, not much less than ldm
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| 08:42 | <ogra> that lite discussion is moot ...
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| 08:42 | <alkisg> (and also the users's list would have to be transferred etc)
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| 08:42 | It would be nice though if ltsp-client was an addon for standard PCs
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| 08:42 | <ogra> you either go back to ltsp 4.x completely (which seems to be the attempt in that thread) or you put some effort into making the distros lighter
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| 08:42 | <alkisg> E.g. something that a user could run from a gnome menu to connect to an ltsp server...
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| 08:43 | <ogra> tsclient ?
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| 08:43 | <mushroomblue> anyone know why I would get "permission denied" upon logging into X with a user?
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| 08:44 | apparently, the password is being authenticated correctly.
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| 08:44 | <alkisg> Well, ssh -Y and setting PULSE environment variable could be done from a simple script, but usb devices would need root permissions, right?
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| 08:45 | <ogra> alkisg, yeah, you can go back 4years :P
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| 08:45 | ldm used to be a simple script
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| 08:45 | alkisg, neither ldm nor X are the probs
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| 08:45 | yu need a lightweight kernel
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| 08:46 | <cyberorg> how do i specify ldm to start X with -br ?
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| 08:46 | <ogra> in the wrapper script somewhere iirc
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| 08:47 | and i'm pretty sure it does that by default
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| 08:47 | <cyberorg> intel 845 hangs if X is not started with -br
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| 08:48 | <ogra> ogra@osiris:~/Devel/ltsp/ldm-trunk$ grep "xinit " screen.d/ldm
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| 08:48 | xinit $xinitrc /usr/sbin/ldm -- ${DISPLAY} vt${TTY} -auth ${XAUTHORITY} ${X_ARGS} -br >/dev/null 2>&1
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| 08:48 | its the default ... (since two years at least)
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| 08:48 | <cyberorg> yes saw that too :)
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| 08:49 | <alkisg> ogra, a different thought: couldn't ldm be completely avoided? E.g. `ssh -l gdm_special_user -X server` and then run gdm remotely? This would make LTSP both easier to maintain and to port to different distros... (or I'm probably saying stupid things... :P)
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| 08:49 | <cyberorg> so probably X -configure does not create proper xorg.conf for those clients, locally installed system work fine
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| 08:49 | will investigate more
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| 08:49 | <ogra> alkisg, sure, put some years of work into redesigning everything :)
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| 08:50 | <alkisg> Yeah, you got a point there...
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| 08:50 | <ogra> alkisg, as i said ldm, X and the like are not your prob
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| 08:50 | distros use a mostly generic kernel that requires a lot of ram
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| 08:50 | make the distros build a thin client specific kernel and you can easily work with 32M
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| 08:51 | <alkisg> Even with new (2.6) kernels?
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| 08:51 | <ogra> in fact ubuntu clients can boot and run ldm/X with 32M
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| 08:51 | i tried that out when i implemented compcache in the ubuntu kernel
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| 08:51 | you cant use any additional features though
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| 08:52 | and with jaunty it might not work anymore simply because dbus and hal are a hard requirement now
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| 08:52 | but i had it working in intrepid
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| 08:52 | <alkisg> I see... thanks a lot, ogra!
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| 08:52 | <sbalneav> Morning all
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| 08:53 | <ogra> !s
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| 08:53 | <ltspbot> ogra: "s" is Scotty!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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| 08:54 | <mushroomblue> hah. I'm having difficulty getting intrepid-based ltsp to authenticate users.
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| 09:00 | <alkisg> Where's a good place to insert this command? `sudo ethtool -A eth0 autoneg off rx off` ? In an "up" section of /etc/network/interfaces ?
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| 09:01 | <ogra> no, in the initramfs
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| 09:02 | <alkisg> ogra, to be ran on the server...
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| 09:02 | <ogra> oh, yeah, if-up.d
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| 09:02 | <alkisg> k, ty
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| 09:03 | (That's probably the most important command for mixed-speed 100/1000 networks :))
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| 09:04 | <ogra> /etc/network/if-up.d/openssh-server seems a good script to start from
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| 09:04 | <alkisg> Ah, yeap, that looks fine.
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| 09:08 | <asmok> Hello, if I can help to test this bug (https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ltsp/+bug/335767) here I am. Jaunty Alpha 5 is updated&upgraded
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| 09:09 | <asmok> This time my thin client is HP Mini, works fine with Jaunty (sound and screen 1024x600)
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| 09:19 | <asmok> And here is usb stick:
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| 09:19 | root@ltsp202:~# fdisk -l /dev/sdb
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| 09:19 | Disk /dev/sdb: 8213 MB, 8213305856 bytes
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| 09:19 | 255 heads, 63 sectors/track, 998 cylinders
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| 09:19 | Units = cylinders of 16065 * 512 = 8225280 bytes
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| 09:19 | Disk identifier: 0x00074fa0
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| 09:19 | Device Boot Start End Blocks Id System
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| 09:19 | /dev/sdb1 1 998 8016403+ b W95 FAT32
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| 09:19 | root@ltsp202:~#
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| 09:20 | No pop up icon...
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| 09:20 | <mushroomblue> I think PAM hates me
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| 09:20 | I try to add a user to the image via chroot
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| 09:21 | when I try to boot my thin client, it gets to a full GDM login, and fails on "Permission Denied"
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| 09:23 | <mushroomblue> anyone have a clue?
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| 09:25 | <NeonLicht> mushroomblue, does your user have permission to ssh the server?
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| 09:26 | <mushroomblue> that's a good question. lemme check.
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| 09:26 | <jammcq> good morning #ltsp
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| 09:26 | <mushroomblue> NeonLicht: as in, they should be added to the ssh group?
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| 09:32 | * mushroomblue buys NeonLicht a beer | |
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| 09:41 | <NeonLicht> mushroomblue, I'm more of a wine type XDD
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| 09:42 | mushroomblue, as in "should be able to log in to the server by ssh" :-)
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| 09:43 | mushroomblue, I, for instance, authorize it via /etc/ssh/sshd_config
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| 11:06 | <chrisjrob> anyone know what "rpc failed: 2" means on client boot? this is a new debian lenny install. can't seem to get passed this error and google has not been my friend!
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| 11:25 | <sbalneav> Probably something NFS related, I'd expect.
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| 11:26 | Is the chroot exported? Check your /etc/exports, and that the nfs server is running
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| 11:32 | <chrisjrob> apologies for the re-post - i was disconnected. anyone know what "rpc failed: 2" means on client boot?
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| 11:33 | it gets passed the loading initrd.img stage, says booting kernel, then waits for a few minutes, then
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| 11:34 | after confirming all the correct ip config it fails with the rpc failed: 2 message
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| 11:34 | <knipwim> the original reply to your question:
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| 11:34 | 18:12 < sbalneav> Probably something NFS related, I'd expect.
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| 11:34 | 18:13 < sbalneav> Is the chroot exported? Check your /etc/exports, and that the nfs server is running
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| 11:35 | <chrisjrob> thanks knipwim appreciated...
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| 11:36 | the /etc/exports says "/opt/ltsp *(ro,no_root_squash,async,no_subtree_check)"
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| 11:37 | and nfsd is running.
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| 12:09 | <the> i need some clarity on ltsp5(ubuntu) about how weak clients can be.
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| 12:10 | <_UsUrPeR_> the: go ahead
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| 12:11 | <the> I have an ltsp5 setup that works fine with a compaqEN SFF box and 128MB ram but not with an old HP Vectra that has 64MB ram.
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| 12:12 | <_UsUrPeR_> the: what happens when you try to boot the HPs?
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| 12:13 | <the> the HPs use a boot floppy. I get the string of dots and then "DONE" and it freezes.
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| 12:13 | tailing syslog shows it's trying to send the client a 151MB image file.
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| 12:13 | choke...
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| 12:14 | the clients have no disk.
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| 12:16 | <ogra> if the clients use the ubuntu kernel they should work with 64M
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| 12:17 | <the> ogra: where does that 151MB image go on a client with 64MB of ram?
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| 12:17 | <ogra> though if you say you see dots that sounds like its uncompressing its own kernel from floppy, try a rom-o-matic floppy image instead, that way they will get the ubuntu kernel which uses compcache to compress parts of the ram
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| 12:17 | its not transferred if it uses the right technique ... its mounted
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| 12:17 | <the> it is a rom-o-matic image, but not a new one. I'll try that next.
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| 12:17 | <ogra> the 151 image is the readonly image carrying your filesystem
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| 12:18 | <the> admittedly, i harbor a little baggage with ubuntu's uber-automated ltsp.
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| 12:18 | <ogra> on boot a tmpfs gets created in ram, the tmpfs and readonly image get merged to a writable rootfs
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| 12:19 | <the> that rootfs runs on the server then, correct?
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| 12:19 | <ogra> so you only use the amount of ram the network block device client actually needs plus some overhead for the aufs merge
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| 12:20 | no, it runs in ram on the client, in the tmpfs
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| 12:20 | <the> OK
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| 12:20 | <ogra> but only using the parts of ram you actually need to write system files during boot
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| 12:21 | make sure to enable PXE emulation when creating your rom-o-matic image, its easier to handle than etherboot if you want to make changes
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| 12:22 | <the> I dont think the vectras are PXE capable. the nics have an empty slot.
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| 12:22 | s/slot/socket/g
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| 12:22 | <ogra> rom-o-matic has a PXE emulation mode
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| 12:23 | just check the box, it will use PXE
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| 12:23 | <the> I'll do that now.
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| 12:23 | Done here. thanks for the help.
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| 13:31 | <johnny> ogra, http://www.osnews.com/story/21075/Want_Touch_Book
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| 13:31 | * johnny attacks ogra with an arm chip | |
| 13:31 | <johnny> take that!
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| 13:31 | hehe
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| 15:01 | <mushroomblue> anyone know why tftp would be complaing about client not accepting options?
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| 15:01 | it seems to boot fine on another box, but this HP thin client is making me want to cry
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| 15:01 | and that seems to be the only real difference between the two booting, at least according to syslog
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| 15:04 | seems like it boots
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| 15:04 | I get an xauth message
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| 15:04 | then a blinking cursor on a blank screen
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| 15:38 | <vagrantc> mushroomblue: i've never seen the tftp client options related error stop something from booting
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| 15:45 | <mushroomblue> vagrantc: it appears you're correct.
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| 15:47 | it seems to boot into linux without issue. X just isn't starting.
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| 15:50 | it takes 3 times as long for the t5540 to connect to my dhcp server as the other box.
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| 15:51 | which was the first weird thing.
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| 15:51 | second weirdness being X, I think.
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| 16:01 | anyone know if Via OpenChrome9 is supported in Intrepid?
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| 16:22 | * mushroomblue sets his thin clients on fire | |
| 16:22 | <sbalneav> mushroomblue: Which tftpd server are you using?
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| 16:26 | <mushroomblue> sbalneav: tftpd-hpa
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| 16:27 | sbalneav: should I use atftpd or something?
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| 16:27 | <sbalneav> No tftpd-hpa is what you should use
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| 16:28 | This a PXE client or an etherboot client?
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| 16:28 | <mushroomblue> PXE
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| 16:29 | it seems to be getting the kernel without issue
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| 16:29 | <sbalneav> I'm sorry, I'm assuming you're still having problems with the tftp side of things. Is that correct? Or are you having an X problem.
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| 16:29 | <mushroomblue> I think it might be an X problem now
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| 16:29 | due to the thin client using Via OpenChrome 9 HC3
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| 16:29 | which I dunno if it's supported in Intrepid
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| 16:30 | <mushroomblue> downloading an iso of jaunty to try out on the system. hopefully, it has updated drivers.
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| 16:30 | <sbalneav> Simplest way to test would be to stick a USB cdrom drive on the thin client, and get it to boot an intrepid liveCD with it.
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| 16:30 | Then you could test and see if it's using openchrome, or just the vesa driver.
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| 16:30 | <mushroomblue> sadly, my intrepid liveCD is alternate install.
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| 16:30 | yeah. I'm gonna test vesa
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| 16:31 | and vga, for that matter.
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| 16:31 | <sbalneav> Test vesa, that should shed some light.
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| 16:31 | I'm off home for the day, I'll be on later tonight.
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| 16:31 | Cheers.
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| 16:32 | <mushroomblue> thanks. :)
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| 17:14 | <nicros> can anyone here point me in the right direction in setting up Fat Clients using LTSP and openSUSE 11.1?
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| 17:15 | the only thing i can find out there is for Ubuntu
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| 17:22 | <Lns> nicros: OpenSuSE has kiwi, might want to try #kiwi-ltsp
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| 17:27 | <nicros> i don't think kiwi is what i want though.
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| 17:29 | guess i'll work on getting ltsp working first
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| 17:29 | <Lns> nicros: afaik suse has their own way of doing things that's not really 100% ltsp-compatible
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| 17:29 | kiwi is their "imaging technology" that behaves similar to fat clients
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| 17:30 | <nicros> but from what i can tell it still runs on the server, is that correct?
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| 17:30 | <Lns> i don't think so, but seriously you'll want to talk to the suse folk about it
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| 17:31 | <nicros> i'm using pxelinux and nfsroot to boot diskless clients right now. they are no longer supporting nfsroot in opensuse 11.1 so i need to migrate to something else and do the same thing.
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| 17:31 | the folks on #suse don't know anything about kiwi or ltsp
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| 17:33 | <Lns> nicros: #kiwi-ltsp
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| 17:33 | ^^^
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| 17:37 | <nicros> Thanks, i'll try back later
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| 17:58 | <Gadi> mushroomblue: did you say you have chrome9 hardware?
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| 19:25 | <sbalneav> win 8
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| 21:06 | <markstos> I have a meeting with the school system IT director in the morning to discuss introducing Linux thin clients into the local school system. They currently plan to speed $800/station for 2,000 leased computers. (That's $1.6 million dollars). Any suggestions for framing the conversation are welcome.
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| 21:13 | <sbalneav> Have you had any experience deploying LTSP?
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| 21:21 | <markstos> I have set up demo labs, with 1 to 3 clients.
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| 21:21 | There is a school 30 minutes away that has a 20 seat lab.
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| 21:23 | <sbalneav> What's their rationale for wanting to spend that amount of money?
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| 21:24 | <markstos> I'll find out. I know the cost was presented as leasing the stations for $160/station/year.
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| 21:25 | <sbalneav> The best way to approach it, IMHO, would be to target the amount of money, the *realistic* dollar savings they may accrue in a thin client scenario, and the better way the money could be apportioned to actually improving the education quality of the students, as opposed to simply leasing a bunch of hardware they won't own. Do they have hardware now that could be re-targetted as thin clients?
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| 21:28 | <markstos> Yes, I would say of the 2,000 new systems they intend to purchase, they are nearly all replacements, so are candidates to use as thin-clients.
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| 21:28 | I'm not sure how standardized that hardware is, or if it has netbooting built-in.
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| 21:29 | <markstos> I think I will recommend something like thinstation.org.... starting with a Linux-based thin-client OS that can connect to either Windows or Linux terminal servers, so that they can continue to use some Windows based programs they depend on for the short term.
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