IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.libera.chat (webchat)
Channel log from 30 July 2015 (all times are UTC)
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| 04:50 | -kornbluth.freenode.net- [freenode-info] channel trolls and no channel staff around to help? please check with freenode support: http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#gettinghelp | |
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| 06:22 | <gehidore> nope, cause you didn't stick around
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| 06:24 | <muppis> No wonder why this world is in this shape with that patience. :D
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| 06:25 | <gehidore> muppis: yarr it's a plague everywhere, I myself am effected from time to time
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| 06:26 | <muppis> I confess as well. :D
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| 06:29 | <gehidore> I really need to get back to working on what I need from ltsp but this financial crap has shut down all progress on all my projects :S
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| 14:49 | <championofcyrodi> any tips on ensuring my user's Thunderbird "INBOX" cache doenst grow over 2GB?
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| 14:49 | some are like 10GB or more, plus archivals.
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| 14:49 | their using IMAP
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| 15:59 | <alkisg> championofcyrodi: try #thunderbird in irc.mozilla.org
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| 16:01 | <championofcyrodi> lol, thanks.
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| 16:01 | i got it
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| 16:02 | disable local mail sync on the clients is all.
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| 16:02 | under account settings
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| 16:05 | <geekgirl> I have a simple question. I have fat clients. When I update the chroot, should I be running ltsp-update-sskkeys as well? How often is that needed or when should I be using it?
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| 16:06 | * vagrantc finally has a new real-world LTSP lab in the works | |
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| 16:07 | <alkisg> geekgirl: you don't need to run it unless you change your server's hostname or ssh keys
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| 16:07 | It used to be necessary when you changed your server's ip, not anymore
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| 16:07 | vagrantc: cool! how many clients?
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| 16:07 | And, distro/version/DE?
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| 16:07 | <vagrantc> alkisg: i think it'll be about 60 when all is said and done
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| 16:08 | <alkisg> So, fats + gigabit, I assume...
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| 16:08 | <vagrantc> Debian Jessie with gnome-flashback
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| 16:08 | <alkisg> Nice, my main problem there is locks with sshfs, and the keyboard indicator icon
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| 16:08 | <geekgirl> ok thank you
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| 16:08 | <vagrantc> kind of between a fatclient and a kiosk... trying to get the lightdm guest login feature working
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| 16:09 | <alkisg> https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=730587
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| 16:09 | <vagrantc> currently only configured as autologin
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| 16:09 | alkisg: no sshfs at all, just using a locally generated user
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| 16:09 | <alkisg> That should be more stable :)
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| 16:09 | <vagrantc> hopefully.
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| 16:10 | <vagrantc> the clients are dual-core 64-bit atoms with 2-4GB of ram ...
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| 16:10 | i think most just have two
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| 16:10 | <alkisg> About kiosks etc, why don't we just create a session in /usr/share/xsessions that autolaunches the browser?
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| 16:10 | Then we can have autologin as usual, and ldm_session, and it would work with both thins and fats
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| 16:10 | <vagrantc> alkisg: i think the reasoning was running a whole display manager was a waste of resources for that use-case... but maybe that's a way to go.
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| 16:11 | <alkisg> LDM_AUTOLOGIN doesn't display the DM, afaik
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| 16:11 | *the greeter
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| 16:11 | OK it does run the DM backend
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| 16:11 | * vagrantc isn't using LDM at all | |
| 16:12 | <vagrantc> just lightdm
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| 16:12 | but the guest login feature is perplexing me....
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| 16:12 | <alkisg> I think ltsp has better means to create and manage guest logins than lightdm
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| 16:12 | <geekgirl> On occasion & randomly, maybe 2 reboots out of 15... a fat client will get just a black screen. I have looked in auth.log and syslog but I dont see anything odd-ball. Do you know where else I could look for clues?
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| 16:12 | <vagrantc> i looked over the scripts that it uses on ubuntu and copied them, but they're just not even executed
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| 16:13 | <alkisg> E.g. you can create /home/username on an nbd encrypted partition, created dynamically, so that the ram isn't an issue
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| 16:13 | <vagrantc> alkisg: we don't want persistent home dirs
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| 16:13 | alkisg: want it to be thrown away on login/logout
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| 16:13 | <alkisg> Not persistent, just to save RAM
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| 16:14 | E.g. suppose a user works for 10 hours, and his home dir grows to 2 GB
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| 16:14 | <vagrantc> why NBD ?
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| 16:14 | <alkisg> That all would go to tmpfs, crashing the client
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| 16:14 | If you used nbd instead, the RAM would be free for actual programs to run in
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| 16:14 | Not for /home/guest...
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| 16:14 | It's quite easy to implement it
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| 16:14 | <vagrantc> it already does encrypted swap by default
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| 16:15 | just create a bigger swap partition
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| 16:15 | then tmpfs will swap out whatever it's not using
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| 16:15 | <alkisg> I think tmpfs is half the physical ram, isn't it?
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| 16:15 | It won't use from the available swap...
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| 16:15 | <vagrantc> by default, it's configurable though
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| 16:15 | yes it will
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| 16:15 | <alkisg> So you have have e.g. 10 GB swap, 1 GB RAM, and 5 GB tmpfs working fine?
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| 16:16 | <vagrantc> i used to do it all the time on my laptop
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| 16:16 | <alkisg> Cool, I think I tried it once with the ltsp defaults and it didn't work that way
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| 16:16 | <vagrantc> probably the tmpfs was too small
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| 16:17 | * vagrantc now has more ram for the laptop, but used to do package builds in tmpfs 5 times the size of ram | |
| 16:17 | <alkisg> geekgirl: at that point, run `ps aux` to see what's not running when it should. Also, syslog and dmesg
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| 16:25 | vagrantc: about this: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ltsp/+bug/1352038
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| 16:25 | In aufs, you bind-mount all the mount points over the cow dir, right?
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| 16:25 | So, if the cleanup phase makes changes, they're done in the real dirs, not in the cow overlay...
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| 16:25 | Right?
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| 16:26 | so e.g. if someone had /etc in a different partition, cleanup.d would permanately remove all the users... :(
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| 16:27 | I didn't find any other way to do it though, so maybe we could do those bind-mounts, but then also remount the bind-mounts as read-only
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| 16:27 | <vagrantc> alkisg: i don't think so
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| 16:27 | alkisg: i make a separate aufs filesystem for each mount, writeable in tmpfs
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| 16:28 | <geekgirl> @alkisg I have one now in the black screen state. I can ping it. it looks exactly the same as all the others in those logs. I did find this in .xsession-errors Xsession: X session started for smain13 at Thu Jul 30 11:58:57 EDT 2015 localuser:smain13 being added to access control list Script for ibus started at run_im. Script for auto started at run_im. Script for default started at run_im. init: at-spi2-registryd main process ended, r
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| 16:28 | <vagrantc> alkisg: i've never seen --cleanup remove all my users, for example
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| 16:28 | <alkisg> Do you have /etc/ in a different partition?
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| 16:28 | <vagrantc> ah.
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| 16:28 | i have tested it with a split /home and split /boot
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| 16:29 | <geekgirl> OOOPS sorry. it didnt paste all that. the last 2 lines say:init: at-spi2-registryd main process ended, respawning init: at-spi2-registryd respawning too fast, stopped
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| 16:29 | <alkisg> mkdir -p "$cu_cow${point%/}"
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| 16:29 | mark_mount -t "$union_type" -o "dirs=$cu_cow${point%/}=rw:$cu_rofs${point%/}=ro" "$union_type" "$cu_chroot${point%/}"
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| 16:29 | That's above the tmpfs, isn't it?
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| 16:29 | * vagrantc hasn't looked at the code in a while | |
| 16:29 | <alkisg> geekgirl: which distro/version/de?
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| 16:29 | Desktop Environment?
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| 16:30 | <geekgirl> Unity - ubuntu 14.04
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| 16:30 | <alkisg> geekgirl: and that happens on login? I.e. you see ldm normally, the user types username/password, and then gets a blank screen?
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| 16:31 | <geekgirl> I have the clients auto-logon through lts.conf..
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| 16:32 | <alkisg> Do you have any remote access method to it?
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| 16:32 | screen_02=shell, epoptes-client, ssh...?
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| 16:32 | <geekgirl> epoptes... it shows black screen too
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| 16:32 | <alkisg> Right click and open terminal, and run ps aux
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| 16:33 | ls /home/username, things like that
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| 16:34 | <geekgirl> I never even seen that! ---root remotely? or user locally?
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| 16:34 | * vagrantc wonders how hard it would be to generate homedirs in LDM like lightdm's guest-account feature | |
| 16:35 | <vagrantc> though i really want to move away from LDM ...
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| 16:41 | <brianr_> geekgirl, are you getting an all black screen after you login?
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| 16:43 | if that is the case , that happens to us when a user manually sets their resolution, and then logs into another thin client which doesn't support that resolution. not sure if thats the case with you ...
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| 16:43 | <geekgirl> @alkisg no. Its just randomly across the clients this happens on a reboot. There are 31 other clients running fine on it. If I reboot this one it will be fine...I was trying to catch the problem in the act.
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| 16:44 | <alkisg> geekgirl: yes, epoptes allows you to debug the problem in the act
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| 16:45 | <geekgirl> they reboot often. Its for a library system. I reboot in between people using them. I have a script that copies over the home directory and im hoping it doesnt bomb on occasion... but the home directory looks fine!
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| 16:45 | <alkisg> You can get a shell there and see which thing is not running, what failed etc
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| 16:45 | <geekgirl> i got one and I am trying to compare a good one to a black screen one now
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| 16:46 | <alkisg> vagrantc: lightdm generates them on /tmp so that it doesn't pollute /home, but with ltsp clients, do you need that?
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| 16:46 | What's wrong with a plain `adduser guest`?
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| 16:47 | ...and a `find . -delete; rsync -a /etc/skel` on login...
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| 16:47 | (or del/readd user...)
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| 16:48 | <geekgirl> OK strange I notice that the black screen client, when I do a ps aux.... everything is owned by the user... on the working one there are some things owned by root.
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| 16:49 | <ogra_> does the black screen user by chance have a ~/.config/monitors.xml ? (that would try to redefine the resolution after login if teh user played with it)
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| 16:50 | <vagrantc> alkisg: i guess that would work...
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| 16:52 | alkisg: i currently add the guest user in an init-ltsp.d hook ... but haven't figured out where to put the account cleanup scripts
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| 16:52 | <geekgirl> hmmmm nope...
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| 16:53 | <vagrantc> alkisg: also, it's a chrootless install, so some of the configuration is on the server-side, although i suppose i could just do everything with init-ltsp.d hooks instead.
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| 16:53 | <geekgirl> @vagrant how about in chroot -->/usr/share/ldm/rc.d/S00-guest-sessions
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| 16:53 | <vagrantc> geekgirl: not using LDM
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| 16:54 | <geekgirl> ohhh ok. :)
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| 16:54 | <vagrantc> don't want to strip the ssh parts out of LDM...
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| 16:54 | but in theory it would be possible.
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| 16:55 | * vagrantc wonders what to call it if we implemented it in LDM | |
| 16:55 | <alkisg> !guest
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| 16:55 | <ltsp> I do not know about 'guest', but I do know about these similar topics: 'greek'
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| 16:55 | <vagrantc> since "guest login" in LDM already means something, and "guest login" in lightdm means something else
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| 16:56 | alkisg: i've heard greeks treat their guests well
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| 16:56 | <alkisg> :D
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| 16:56 | The guest login in ldm is misleading, we should rename it
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| 16:57 | I think the guest cleanup script I mentioned in the ML was there: http://sourceforge.net/p/ltsp/mailman/message/25064076/
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| 16:57 | ...but sf seems down
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| 16:58 | Whoops, nope, not that one...
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| 16:58 | http://sourceforge.net/p/ltsp/mailman/message/27814821/
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| 16:58 | That one
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| 16:58 | <ogra_> vagrantc, "test login" or "temporary login"
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| 16:58 | <vagrantc> transient login
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| 16:58 | <ogra_> yeah
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| 16:59 | <vagrantc> guest login in LDM predates guest login in lightdm
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| 16:59 | <ogra_> or "trial login"
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| 16:59 | (we will charge you after 10 min of usage)
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| 16:59 | :PP
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| 16:59 | <alkisg> LDM's guest login is not a guest though
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| 16:59 | It's a real user
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| 17:00 | So that's the one that should be renamed...
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| 17:01 | <vagrantc> fair enough
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| 17:02 | yeah, i've used such cleanup scripts before ... but they still require ssh access to the server
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| 17:04 | which, for ephemeral logins seems silly
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| 17:04 | oh no, maybe i'm going to do more LDM coding...
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| 17:04 | * vagrantc can sense a TODO overload coming on | |
| 17:05 | <geekgirl> AHA! The resolution on the one with a black screen is different...
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| 17:05 | <vagrantc> honestly, if i can just get lightdm's guest login feature working, that solves my problems perfectly.
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| 17:06 | <geekgirl> something must be up with my display settings. I would be surprised if users are trying to change resolution.
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| 17:09 | In order to have a decent resolution I have this in my lts.conf XRANDR_COMMAND_0="xrandr --newmode 1368x768 85.25 1368 1440 1576 1784 768 771 781 798 -hsync +vsync" XRANDR_COMMAND_1="xrandr --addmode VGA-0 1368x768" XRANDR_COMMAND_2="xrandr --addmode DVI-1 1368x768" XRANDR_COMMAND_3="xrandr --output VGA-0 --mode 1368x768" XRANDR_COMMAND_4="xrandr --output DVI-1 --mode 1368x768"
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| 17:10 | cause oddly.... Ubuntu counts the DVI-VGA adapter as a whole different monitor attached.
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| 17:10 | <ogra_> geekgirl, well, if users try to change it via system-settings then there should be a ~/.config/monitors.xml ...
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| 17:10 | system-settings creates that (and hands it to xranrd on login)
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| 17:11 | (thats why i asked above if that file exists)
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| 17:12 | <geekgirl> and there is not a .config/monitors.xml... so I am guessing my lts.conf doesn't apply itself every time?? I wonder why so random.
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| 17:12 | <vagrantc> ogra_: so, debconf is in germany this year...
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| 17:12 | <ogra_> vagrantc, yeah, i'll try to come :)
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| 17:13 | sadly my new job is called "community liaison" which means i need to do spontaneous travel if required
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| 17:13 | so i cant confirm 100%
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| 17:13 | but to 90 at least :)
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| 17:13 | alkisg is now known as work_alkisg | |
| 17:14 | <work_alkisg> ogra_, do you know if 15.10 is supposed to have both upstart and systemd, or just systemd?
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| 17:14 | ...and same question for 16.04?
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| 17:14 | <vagrantc> ogra_: seems like a significant community be will be there!
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| 17:15 | <ogra_> work_alkisg, the phones still use upstart ... and the desktop still uses upstart sessions, so it will still be around
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| 17:15 | <work_alkisg> thanks :)
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| 17:15 | <ogra_> not sure how well supported switching back and forth for init will be though
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| 17:15 | <work_alkisg> init will be systemd, right?
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| 17:15 | <ogra_> (and for 16.04 nobody can say anything concrete yet :) )
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| 17:15 | yeah, systemd is default since 15.04
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| 17:16 | * work_alkisg just tries to see which things will need to be checked for ltsp in 16.04 | |
| 17:16 | <work_alkisg> Cool... /me waves
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| 17:16 | <ogra_> vagrantc, well, depends how big the interest in snappy is in that community :)
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| 17:16 | <brianr_> alkisg, i still cannot get nbd to work without ipappend =3
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| 17:16 | Negotiation failed/8a: Requested export not found
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| 17:16 | <vagrantc> i'd like to explore native systemd hooks for ltsp; currently relying on sysvinit compatibility at the moment
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| 17:17 | brianr_: you'll need either ipappend=3 or to specify the NBD server on the boot prompt
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| 17:17 | <ogra_> (i *could* claim i'm going because i want to calm the debian community that .deb wont go away in ubuntu, despite of snappy though)
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| 17:17 | :)
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| 17:18 | <brianr_> the boot prompt? like can i put it in the lts.conf?
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| 17:18 | <vagrantc> ogra_: oh, switching packaging systems? yeah, that would stir some muck.
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| 17:19 | brianr_: not in lts.conf ... it's a bit more involved
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| 17:19 | <ogra_> well, snappy is more like "meta project packages" than an actual packaging system
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| 17:19 | <vagrantc> brianr_: same file where you would add ipappend=3
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| 17:19 | <ogra_> and you can use debs inside snaps
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| 17:19 | or rather binary content from debs
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| 17:19 | <vagrantc> brianr_: and honestly, ipappend=3 is the simpler way to do it.
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| 17:23 | <brianr_> well, it seems my problem was that ipappend 2 got added to pxelinux.cfg/default somewhere
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| 17:23 | commenting that out fixed my issue
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| 17:40 | <vagrantc> brianr_: where did you comment it out? it may get overwritten on next update
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| 17:41 | <brianr_> i commented it in the pxelinux.cfg/default to test
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| 17:43 | it isn't set in /etc/ltsp/update-kernels.conf
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| 17:43 | is there a downside to using NFS over NBD ?
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| 17:48 | <vagrantc> NFS is a bit slower
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| 17:48 | but updates go live instantly
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| 17:48 | so no need to run ltsp-update-image
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| 17:48 | NFS also seems more resilient in cases of temporary network failure
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| 17:52 | <gehidore> I keep looking at the infected windows 7 machine in the corner office and thinking.... MMMMM LTSP
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| 17:54 | <elias_a> gehidore: Which floor? Do not jump! :P
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| 17:55 | <gehidore> hahah elias_a, 2nd floor of a 2 story building
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| 17:55 | but I have full control of what they use and dont use I just haven't perfected my ltsp servering skills yet
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| 17:55 | I guess that's redundant...
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| 17:55 | s/ltsp servering/ltsp/
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| 17:55 | :D
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| 17:56 | <elias_a> gehidore: One hint: even you would "have" to use windows, set the computers up so that in case of HDD failure or the like the PC will boot to LTSP.
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| 17:57 | <gehidore> heheh
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| 17:57 | the folks here don't need windows
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| 17:57 | I'm working on assembling the ltsp image served to them to be a simple lightweight DE with Firefox Thunderchicken and libreoffice
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| 17:57 | cause that's all they need
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| 17:58 | <elias_a> "What is my Ubuntu password?" -> Ok, it is a HDD failure so you say "Use your ordinary login and continue working."
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| 17:58 | <gehidore> and these machines are all 64bit p4's with < 1G ram
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| 17:58 | I know a couple have 4G so I'm going to pull them all at once and try to get each machine at least 2G
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| 19:22 | <geekgirl> UPDATE: fat clients with black screen are showing "screen 0: 320 x 200, current 2734 x 768, 8192 x 8192" with the xandr command. That middle resolution is incorrect but only shows up randomly and results in a black screen. I reran my xandr commands in lts.conf with no change to teh black screen. Only reboot fixes.
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| 20:39 | <alkisg> 64bit p4's? That doesn't sound likely...
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| 20:39 | <gehidore> alkisg: you've never seen the 64bit p4's?!
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| 20:39 | <vagrantc> they definitely existed...
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| 20:39 | <alkisg> Nope
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| 20:40 | And never with 4GB RAM
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| 20:40 | <maldridge> they existed they just cost a fortune when they came out
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| 20:40 | <gehidore> hahah
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| 20:40 | alkisg: you must have been sheltered
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| 20:41 | they where the ones that they hired the blueman group to do the commercial for
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| 20:41 | <alkisg> Maybe schools here went for the cheap ones :)
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| 20:41 | <gehidore> pulling up the infos on these exact machines
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| 20:43 | and I'm certain they never *came* with 4g
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| 20:43 | <maldridge> in my experience primary and secondary schools go for cheap machines, but universities pay for the nice ones. No idea why
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| 20:43 | <gehidore> doesn't mean I didn't upgrade a couple :P
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| 20:43 | and this is far from being at a school
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| 20:43 | <alkisg> Wikipedia says Prescott (2004) and Cedar Mill (2006) came with 64bit... I haven't seen any of those, the newest P4's here are 3 GHz
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| 20:43 | ...the oldest ones 1.7 GHz
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| 20:44 | And all of them with just 256 RAM, we're upgrading them to 1 GB to become fat clients
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| 20:45 | * quinox once bought 16MB and was ectatic about his RAM doubling in size | |
| 20:45 | * maldridge is quite happy with his lab that has 16GB of ram as minimum | |
| 20:46 | <gehidore> http://ark.intel.com/products/77775/Intel-Pentium-Processor-G3420-3M-Cache-3_20-GHz
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| 20:46 | <alkisg> quinox: haha, the first PCs in schools here only had 2 MB RAM, and they were diskless, booting with Novel
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| 20:47 | i386, with the token ring network etc
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| 20:47 | gehidore: that's definately not P4 :)
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| 20:47 | It's 10 years younger...
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| 20:48 | <gehidore> oh I linked to the wrong one, my bad
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| 20:48 | too many tabs open
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| 20:50 | second
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| 20:54 | <gehidore> http://ark.intel.com/products/27480/Intel-Pentium-4-Processor-640-supporting-HT-Technology-2M-Cache-3_20-GHz-800-MHz-FSB there it is
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| 20:55 | 64 bit p4 :P
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| 21:00 | alkisg: ^^
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| 21:11 | <alkisg> Yup, never saw these here...
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| 21:14 | No p4 with 775 in cpubenchmark... http://www.cpubenchmark.net/socketType.html#id5
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| 21:14 | Only pentium D's, we did have those here as well
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| 21:15 | So I'm guessing about 300 score... barely functional as a fat client...
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| 21:28 | <gehidore> pretty damn functional as a fully installed box with XFCE4 on archlinux
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| 21:28 | I was shocked this stupid little machine was usable
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| 21:29 | the test box was the p4 1G ram and an 80G sata2 drive because it's what I had on hand
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| 21:29 | unfortunately we have zero budget to upgrade and the girls here if left to windows destroy them in a matter of days
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| 21:30 | and the one guy we've got kills them in hours
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| 22:21 | <maldridge> I've been continually impressed iwth low power machines. I've got a toughbook that only has 512mb on a centrino platform and it works fine
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| 22:32 | <gehidore> aye if you don't slam them with eye candy they tend to be quite efficient
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| 22:32 | my e430 thinkpad is way overkill for how I have it configured but I still manage to saturate the full 16G of ram and touch over to swap quite often
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| 22:33 | since my thin/fat clients wont be running virtual machines or doing my sort of work it wont matter to them, they essentially need a chromebook but due to HIPPA I can't authorize that
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| 22:37 | <maldridge> a HIPPA/FERPA safe chromebook would make a mint for whoever owned the rights
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| 22:48 | <gehidore> +1
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