IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.libera.chat (webchat)

Request log from specific day:

Channel log from 30 April 2007 (all times are UTC)

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00:08	<Bhaskar1> i have k12ltsp in Fedora core 5 , i have USB printer Canon LBP 2900 , the printer is not printing, how can it configure, Anybody can help me ??
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01:34	<aaaa> hello
01:35	any body for lts
01:36	* vagrantc wonders why people don't read the topic
01:37	<aaaa> ltsp sound problem for last one week
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05:38	<cliebow> milosz, lost rtack of time 8~)
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06:37	* kaminski-ltsp-br is back
06:37	<kaminski-ltsp-br> hi all
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08:23	<jammcq> g'morning
08:26	<ogra> hey hey
08:41	<kaminski-ltsp-br> buenos
08:43	<jsgotangco> hey jammcq
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08:46	<mhterres> morning/afternoon
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08:51	<sbalneav> Morning all
08:52	<ogra> !s
08:52	<ltspbot> ogra: "s" is Scotty!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
08:52	* Lumiere wonders how hard it is to type Scotty!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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08:56	<jammcq> !s
08:56	<ltspbot> jammcq: "s" is Scotty!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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08:57	<ogra> Lumiere, hard enough ;)
08:57	<sbalneav> It's #ltsp's inside joke.
08:57	kind of like !monkeys
08:57	!monkeys
08:57	<ltspbot> sbalneav: "monkeys" is SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS
08:58	<Lumiere> lol
08:58	sbalneav: I know
08:58	<jammcq> sbalneav: so, you ready to take a trip?
08:58	<sbalneav> I am!
08:59	We still haven't gotten the info from Gatwick to Seville though.
08:59	We'll have to figure that one out on the fiy
08:59	As it were
08:59	<jammcq> sbalneav: I have that info :)
08:59	<sbalneav> You da man
08:59	<jammcq> yeah, I emailed Dionne on friday, and she sent me what we need
09:00	<sbalneav> Dionne Warwick?
09:00	<jammcq> yeah, that's the one
09:00	<sbalneav> Music, travel, she does it all.
09:00	<jammcq> btw, I've seen DW live, in concert :)
09:00	<sbalneav> Isn't she the one who's into psycics?
09:00	<jammcq> yeah
09:01	I saw her before she went nutty
09:01	<sbalneav> What was the name of her band? 4 pips?
09:01	<jammcq> noooo
09:01	that's a different motown band
09:01	that was Dianna Ross and the Pipps, I think
09:02	then there's the 'Four Tops'
09:02	completely different
09:02	<sbalneav> Ah, ok, motown's not my area of expertise :)
09:02	heh
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09:02	<jammcq> heh, Motown is like my backyard
09:03	<sbalneav> which makes it sound as if I HAVE an area of expertise :)
09:03	yeah, this should be like mothers milk to you :)
09:04	<jammcq> the Pipps, Tops, Temptations, Miracles.... not to mention the Jackson Five
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09:05	<cliebow_> Melodians..Heptones..Ras Michael
09:07	<jammcq> sbalneav: Just sent you an email
09:07	sbalneav: also, check your priv msgs
09:08	Heptones.... :)
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09:22	<ogra> sbalneav, jammcq, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LtspBootPerformance
09:22	feel free to add stuff
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09:24	<jammcq> ogra: looks nice
09:24	<ogra> if you have any additional ideas ...
09:24	<Lumiere> ogra: the link to the spec
09:24	seems broken
09:25	<ogra> its not existent yet :)
09:25	i'm just working on it
09:25	<jammcq> sbalneav: hey, did you get the email reminder from Colin Watson to register in Launchpad for UDS ?
09:25	<Lumiere> ogra: then that's a perfectly good reason
09:25	<sbalneav> No, but I'll do that.
09:25	<Lumiere> for it not to exist
09:27	<Guaraldo> Good morning for who is before noon, good afternoon for who is fater noon, grood evening for who is after 18:00!
09:27	<ogra> grin
09:27	<Lumiere> lol
09:27	<Guaraldo> %s/fater/after
09:28	<Lumiere> Guaraldo: close enough ^^
09:29	<Guaraldo> Well, this chat have people all over the world... Its good tho grin correctly, doesn't???
09:38	<ogra> sbalneav, jammcq, does one of you know if lp_server used to use any caching mechanism ? https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ltsp/+bug/110609 seems a bit weird to me
09:40	i wonder if we should have come small caching mechanism here ...
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09:44	<Guaraldo> Correcting... :-D When I told grin correctly I'd mean to wave correctly (my english will kill me any time... :-/ )
09:45	Sory!
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09:58	<milosz> jammcq: i've made some decent progress this weekend, i also put my branch online so people can track the changes
09:59	<jammcq> milosz: coolio
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10:01	<pscheie> morning all
10:01	<cliebow_> hey petre
10:01	<pscheie> hey chuck!
10:01	<milosz> i want to add support in the greater for choosing the machine... but that's less trivial because right now it's integrated with ldm, i guess if i ran the greeter in process (as a thread) then that could work better
10:05	<pscheie> jammcq: ping
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10:08	<jammcq> pscheie: hey
10:10	<pscheie> I got an inquiry for NCLS from a guy in South Africa, wants to come so he can meet you!
10:10	<jammcq> heh, who is it?
10:10	<pscheie> Ed Holcroft, who lives in the US now, told him about it
10:11	His name is Riaan van Brakel
10:11	<jammcq> hmm, doesn't ring a bell
10:11	<pscheie> he took over running NetDay after Ed left
10:11	<jammcq> he could fly up to spain next week, it'd be way shorter
10:11	but.... that's his decision
10:11	<pscheie> He wrote asking for an invitation to put into his visa application
10:12	I'll tell hime about Spain, although I suspect there's not enough time left by now
10:12	<jammcq> yeah, he'll need a travel visa to get into the US
10:12	<pscheie> That's probably what it's for, I'd guess
10:13	I'm hoping Ed can come, too, although I haven't talked to him since he moved to the US
10:13	I think he outfitted ~100 poor rural schools in SA with K12LTSP
10:13	Years ago, they used to use Windows, then found LTSP
10:14	Went from 4-5 computers per school to 20
10:14	for the same $$
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11:33	<ogra> jammcq, ed holcroft was invited to sevilla
11:34	i dont see him on the atendeeds list though, but i know he was on he sponsoring list ... richard might know what happened here
11:34	<cyberorg> hi jammcq
11:34	ogra: :)
11:34	<pscheie> ogra: have you heard from ed recently?
11:35	<cyberorg> http://dev.beryl-project.org/~cyberorg/suse/29/kiwi-ltsp-pre-alpha-packages/
11:35	<ogra> pscheie, nope
11:35	<pscheie> he moved to the US in february, but I haven't heard from him since
11:35	<ogra> pscheie, all i know is that we put him on the list for sponsorship ...
11:35	<pscheie> via NetDay?
11:35	<ogra> nope UDS
11:36	for net week
11:36	*next
11:36	<pscheie> If you see him, tell him to drop me a line; I don't have an email address for him in the US
11:37	<ogra> i will
11:37	but as i said, he's not on the attendees list
11:37	so he might or might not come
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11:38	<pscheie> wish I were going to spain; heck, I'm not even working next week
11:38	well, not working for the man, anyway
11:40	<vagrantc> ogra: so any specs i should subscribe to?
11:41	* vagrantc readies an xubuntu install for something GUI for customs to look at
11:42	<ogra> vagrantc, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LdmImprovements, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LtspfsVirtualHalDevices, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LtspBootPerformance and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LtspUpdateManagerIntegration are the ones i registered ...
11:42	overly important are the performance and the ldm spec
11:42	<vagrantc> on the first two
11:42	will add the others shortly
11:42	<ogra> i will push for both of them to get into the core scedule
11:43	<vagrantc> ogra: what's the "required" checkbox ?
11:43	<ogra> we will have two scheduling systems this time so it shold get easier to find free slots
11:43	thats for people that are required because only they could implement or decide something
11:44	<vagrantc> ah, so i shouldn't be checking that box, then ...
11:44	<ogra> right
11:45	for a spec mark-shuttleworth-portrait-as-default-ldm-theme we'd invite mark and make him essential :)
11:45	but ese just leave it alone :)
11:45	*else
11:46	<vagrantc> so, say one did check the required box ... how would one undo it?
11:49	https://blueprints.launchpad.net/sprints/uds-sevilla list 1 specification ... kind of hard to find the others.
11:51	<milosz> how much more memory does the python greet use compared to a C one when fully implemented
11:51	greeter even
11:52	cause i imagine most of that comes from gtk/gdk/pango/cairo/images not the glue
11:53	* vagrantc suspects python glue will be memory hungry
11:53	<milosz> but does anyone has concrete numbers vs. just saying hey it's in C so it much be way better
11:54	<vagrantc> haven't tried the C greeter yet, so no idea really.
11:54	from what ogra says, it loads much faster... he even mentioned numbers at some point
11:54	<milosz> i mean, python in slower, the garbage collector sucks, but i don't know if the extra complexity really gains us a substantial amount of memory
11:55	<vagrantc> speed was the goal, not memory
11:55	<milosz> well 2 seconds in the greeter startup vs. the rest of the boot process is a drop in a bucket
11:55	<vagrantc> more like 2 minutes in the greeter startup
11:56	<milosz> ?
11:56	<vagrantc> the python implementation is real slow
11:56	<milosz> 2 minutes to pain the inital greeter... that sounds kind of craked out
11:56	<vagrantc> the greeter alone can take around 2 minutes on some hardware
11:56	<ogra> milosz, its easier to program safe in python, the threshold is way lower to get contributions to python code
11:56	<vagrantc> jammcq and ogra have done more work on those issues
11:57	<ogra> the C greeter starts here in 6 secs ... vs the python greeter that needs 15
11:58	(stopwatched from seeing the X to having the login window ...)
11:58	* vagrantc wonders if it would be possible for a speedier python implementation
11:58	<ogra> its not significantly faster ...
11:58	<milosz> in intrest of full disclosure, my state is in not having the greeter stay in python because i'm working on moving the greeter bits to be a thread of ldm... so that way i can have ldm be integrated with my automagic load balancing... i can have trivial user overrides of servers (since they get an option of picking one then) and also being able to pass messages to the greater like... all servers are down, etc
11:59	ogra: that sounds more reasonable then 2 minutes i heared
11:59	<ogra> ldm never needed two minutes unless you had a kernel bug or something
11:59	or only 32M
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12:00	<ogra> 2min sounds like a complete bootprocess on a very low specced client ..
12:00	* vagrantc forgets where 2 minutes came from
12:00	* vagrantc looks for jammcq's web page on all the speed stuff
12:00	<ogra> we were down to 90 secs ... during feisty it rather bumped to 100 again ...
12:01	<milosz> to be honest in our depolyment we bought the x clients from jim and we're not so concerned about the lower end people, but we want redundancy and load balancing which i'm working on
12:01	<ogra> vagrantc, thats for the e2300 and surely based on a kernel problem
12:01	<vagrantc> ogra: yeah.
12:01	<ogra> there are numbes like 240secs for a normal boot :)
12:01	*numbers
12:02	i even get a PII with 64M booting faster over here
12:02	<milosz> bootspeed is kind of slow... but it's not a big issue for us, and i'll be breaking of those anyways... atempting to linux bios it
12:02	<ogra> we'll have to look into that during the ltsp profiling session
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12:02	<ogra> milosz, i'm not sure you want threading with SSH_ASKPASS set ...
12:03	using python for the wrapper had its reasons :)
12:03	<vagrantc> ogra: so ... the ldm improvements spec seems kind of broad ... is that a good thing, or a bad one?
12:03	<ogra> using python for the greeter was just laziness though ...
12:03	vagrantc, keeping them broad is good to get them approved but indeed leaves some implementation details open ...
12:04	for the initial spec thats sufficient though, we're supposed to work out details during the BOFS
12:05	vagrantc, you are coming on wednesday as well, right ?
12:05	beacuse then that should be intresting as well :) https://launchpad.net/sprints/ues-sevilla-2007
12:05	<milosz> well to be honest i'd like a better sollution for lb both ldm and regular X (non encrypted) but this was the best solution... for us to be able to depoly it this summer time
12:05	<vagrantc> ogra: i arrive may 2nd
12:05	<milosz> since right now we have 2 machines that server out think clients and within 2 months we'll have 3 more
12:06	<ogra> yeah, so you will be there for UES as well
12:06	milosz, autodetection is on my todo since quite some time so we can get a serverlist ...
12:06	<kaminski-ltsp-br> where can I find the TCM ?
12:06	<milosz> well the code is 95% way there already
12:07	<ogra> ldminfod should be helpful here so we dont have all sshd's in the et on the list ... or a proper avahi integration
12:07	<milosz> http://ltsp.mindtouchsoftware.com/ltsp-loadbalance/
12:07	<vagrantc> ogra: but you'll still need entries in ssh_known_hosts
12:07	<ogra> i wont support anything that lets the user plainly choose and abuse the client for hacking into other ssh servers or smething, it needs to be controlled by the admin or automated
12:07	vagrantc, indeed
12:08	<kaminski-ltsp-br> jammcq: hi jim. where can I find the tcm?
12:08	<jammcq> tcm? it's in Ubuntu
12:08	<ogra> kaminski-ltsp-br, ask in #edubuntu (look for cbx33)
12:08	* vagrantc thinks anything in ssh_known_hosts should be listed as an option, and leave it at that
12:08	<kaminski-ltsp-br> jammcq: ok thanks
12:08	ogra: ok thanks
12:08	<milosz> ogra: everything is controlled by the admin
12:08	<kaminski-ltsp-br> I'm using debian
12:09	<ogra> vagrantc, yeah, something like that ... i#d lie to have an easy gui though so he admin just needs to check checkboxes or so
12:09	milosz, ok, i just want to prevent to have people sending me patches that do a portscan over the complete network on port 22 or something :)
12:10	<milosz> ogra: on each of the servers there's a daemon that "advertises" basicaly anyone who connects can get an xml file with server stats, like numer of processors, memory used, load (port can be customized)
12:10	<ogra> the most beautiful thing would really be to have proper avahi integration all over the place for all buts :)
12:10	*bits
12:10	that sounds like ldminfod
12:10	did you look at it ...
12:11	<milosz> nope
12:11	<ogra> apart from using plain text instaed of making it complicated through xml it provides info about sessions and locales atm
12:12	<milosz> the client bits are integrated into ldm, it picks it "constantly" pegs the server (every 5 secs) to see which one is the best one, as soon as a user puts their username and password into ldm it already knows which one is the best one and usses that one
12:12	<ogra> for gutsy i want to get a timestamp as well so ldm can adjust the clock without having to have an ntp server
12:12	ugh
12:13	i hope you made that optional ? i dont want my ldm's pinging around all the time
12:13	<milosz> yeah
12:13	everything is optional
12:13	<ogra> ldminfod is closely coupled to the gui parts ...
12:13	it will only send an request is thats really needed
12:14	<milosz> and the servers to pick from are hard coded by the admin in the nfs root
12:14	<ogra> i.e. if you select the locale, it will only send the request ruing window generation of the popup
12:14	<milosz> so they won't ping random machines, just that one that are thin client servers
12:14	and that ping threshold is adjustable
12:14	<ogra> could you make it only do the selection after the login data is submitted ?
12:14	that prevents constant network traffic
12:15	(i.e. afetr the user hits enter(
12:15	)
12:15	<milosz> it's possible... but this way it's instant
12:15	<ogra> its pertty noisy and keeps your clients busy
12:15	*pretty
12:16	<milosz> and i figured that getting 512 bytes over thenetwork every 30 seconds... at least in our scenario is non issue
12:16	<ogra> dont forget the low end for clients is around 300Mhz and 48M ram
12:16	ldm needs to run on them easily
12:17	<milosz> well i'm sure it needs a lot of work from hereo on, i'm just saying the first itteration is 95% done
12:17	<ogra> great :)
12:17	<milosz> the code is generic enought that we could make it only check on login
12:17	and most of it non invasisve being in a seprate file (module)
12:18	<ogra> please dont get me wrong if i sound like a moron and seem to diss your code :) its just for quality, ask vagrantc i usually agree in the end :)
12:19	<milosz> well take a look at it then we can disuss whatever needs to be done to satisfy your end
12:20	<ogra> well, on demand tarffic wuld be much preferred ... i'll look into the code and make suggestions ...
12:20	<milosz> some of the python might be funny since I prefer other languages to program in C & mono (C#) but if figured python would be the best way to get it upstream
12:21	yeah i can make it on demand by default... but with an option to scan
12:21	<ogra> on the greeter side https://code.launchpad.net/~ogra/ltsp/ldm-greeter should become our base for te oct. release ...
12:22	<milosz> we get so much cifs scans / nfs / spt traffic where for us it be a drop in the bucket
12:22	<ogra> so if you hacked the greeter itself we'll need to move the code or rewrite it in C
12:22	<milosz> no right now there are no changes to the greeter
12:22	<ogra> well, optional scanning sounds perfect
12:22	ah, cool
12:22	<milosz> they get totaly autopicked
12:23	for our scenario it's not really needed... althought i plan on adding it later
12:23	<ogra> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LdmImprovements <- would you mind adding a note about that feature here ?
12:23	then we'll do an official code review during the BOF ;)
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12:24	<milosz> althought now that the greeter is in C I can't use the python code for finding the servers
12:24	<ogra> why ?
12:24	the greeter is only the part of the app that runs as gtk binary
12:25	the pythn wrapper that cals the greeter is still there and wont go away that fast
12:25	s/fast/soon/
12:26	<milosz> right, well i'd like to add an optional gtk window to the greeter that lists all the servers and their stat so the user can override the default
12:26	and i'd if the user opens the window i'd like the window to update it self, oh I don't know every 30 seconds
12:26	<ogra> (the /usr/sbin/ldm binary <- python (will stay), /usr/lib/ltsp/greeters/gtk <- now gnomecanvas, soon C
12:26	)
12:26	<jernst> hi, what's the correct way to clean up user process on the ltsp server after logout (or before login). I keep having to kill libbonobo and evolution-data-server processes
12:26	<milosz> right
12:27	<ogra> well having another popup in the greeter is ine extra function ... that trivial ...
12:27	in C and python ;)
12:27	s/ine/one/
12:28	updating the window while its shown is fine ...
12:28	<milosz> ogra: right... but then from the C app I cannot use the code that i already wrote in python unless I a) use ipc b) have some kind of app that returns to std out the current stats
12:28	where if the greeter was in python i could just source the serverpicker and i'd be good to go for the most part
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12:30	<ogra> well, you could still call the python window from the C app ... even though thats ugly it would work
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12:30	<milosz> at that point i'd rather ipc to the ldm process and ask it
12:31	since posix message queues one way in both python and C would be trivial
12:31	<ogra> we can keep the python greeter around for a while if you want ... as an optional thing ...
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12:32	<milosz> well, i guess... it's not a big deal as long as we could come to a concencus on the best way of doing interop between two is
12:32	<ogra> the spec we're planning for the conference shoula also cover usage of different guis (i.e. a qt frontend) the python greeter can still stay an option even if we default to the C one :)
12:33	*should
12:33	<milosz> i mean if you'd be fine with me adding posix message queues to ldm to export stats and the C greeter to get a list of servers and their stats... i'd be fine with that
12:33	<ogra> sure
12:34	<milosz> it'd be more elegant then having a seprate picker window in python called from C
12:34	<ogra> i just point out the immense amount of opportunities we have ;)
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12:34	<milosz> right, in this case the qt chooser could use the same generic facilities as the C one
12:34	<ogra> you could even write a completely new greeter ;)
12:34	<milosz> c/gtk one
12:34	<ogra> right
12:35	<milosz> okay, i'm find with that
12:35	<ogra> we should define at least the basice of an API with the spec
12:35	<milosz> fine
12:35	<ogra> *basics
12:35	<vagrantc> ogra: would internationalizing ldm fit into the ldm improvements specs ?
12:35	ogra: that's a feature i see regularly.
12:35	feature request
12:36	<ogra> vagrantc, look at the new C code :)
12:36	already in ;)
12:36	<vagrantc> heh
12:36	<milosz> i also started some work on making ldm more generic (eg being able to run it from your box for testing how it works without booting a thin client)
12:36	<vagrantc> if we could run LDM in a Xephyr/Xnest instance ... that would be handy.
12:37	<ogra> milosz, "An often requested feature is to run ldm outside of ltsp environments as standalone fullscreen ssh client, proper initscripts and necessary changes should get implemented."
12:37	from the spec proposal ;)
12:37	<milosz> but that's all shelved in bzr right now, since i'd like to see where the current code stands, fix outstanding issues, merge it
12:37	well mine is a "hack" right now that uses Xnest... that i did it for testing for my self... but it could be made into a real solution
12:37	<ogra> i think (even i still dont like the ide) its time to split the source into a separate sourcepackage
12:38	*idea
12:38	<milosz> but i'm not too concered with this right now... i'm more worried about the load balancing
12:38	<ogra> it will get an option in /etc/default/ldm and an initscript
12:39	<vagrantc> remember to properly implement "Pax Displayicus Managerius"
12:39	<ogra> pam ?
12:39	well
12:39	<vagrantc> no
12:40	http://bugs.debian.org/267198
12:40	for sdm ... but it applies to all display managers
12:40	<milosz> my only other wish would be to have secure login (with ldm) but have the X stuff be non compressed / non encrypted
12:40	<ogra> meh ...
12:40	i was happy we didnt need it yet
12:40	<vagrantc> no compression is pretty easy, there's a bugfix for that in the debian bts
12:40	<ogra> we'll need to redo the screen.d scripts then
12:41	<milosz> since we do a lot of cad apps... and any speed up we get is great
12:41	<ogra> no compression is used by default
12:41	<vagrantc> ogra: well, if we do it from a screen script, it's no worry. but implementing as a stand-alone daemon
12:41	<ogra> unless the code changed without me noticing
12:41	<vagrantc> ah, it's one of those stupid false=true bugs
12:42	<ogra> vagrantc, ltsp-client doesnt run if default-display-manager exists
12:42	<vagrantc> default is no compression, but setting to false enables it
12:42	<ogra> the screen scripts need an overhaul
12:42	<vagrantc> ogra: sure
12:42	<ogra> right, old bug
12:42	there is a fix in LP since a week before release or so ...
12:42	<vagrantc> it should use get_boolean or whatever it's called
12:43	<ogra> i couldnt commit it anymore
12:43	yeah
12:44	<milosz> ogra: i'll keep working on this, and once you review the current work email me: mtanski@gmail.com
12:44	* ogra notes that down
12:45	<ogra> we'll look into it in the BOF sessions in sevilla ...
12:45	<milosz> when is that?
12:45	<vagrantc> next week
12:45	well, actually, parts of it are starting in ... 2-3 days
12:45	mhterres has quit IRC
12:46	<milosz> i'm starting a new job starting next week, so i might be unavailble for 2 weeks or so
12:47	i'll fill in the wiki before that stuff goes down
12:47	<ogra> yeah, that would be great ... with a link to the bzr tree
12:47	if its written in the spec it has to get implemented ;)
12:47	policy :)
12:48	s/spec/approved spec/
12:48	:)
12:51	milosz, UDS, where we will do the technical stuff goes from Sunday 6th to Friday 11th May 2007 ... if you subscribe to the spec wikipage you can monitor the changes it goes thruogh while we work on it ;)
12:52	MrNobody has joined #ltsp
12:52	<ogra> theer will also be open voip sessions to follow the discussions abd gobby sessions for collaborative editing of the spec
12:52	<MrNobody> hi everyone. I am trying to install LTSP 3.0 in my red hat 9.0 as a school project can anyone help me abit... :)
12:53	<vagrantc> start of with a more recent version of ltsp :)
12:53	<MrNobody> I would like to but the teacher said it MUST be ver 3.0 or else it will not be valid as a project :(
12:54	<ogra> tell him that 3.0 is totally obsolete and unsupported
12:55	the last release done in the fashion 3.0 was is 4.2, you should use at least this version ...
12:56	<MrNobody> we tried but the answer is that we will have so much troubles configuring ver 3.0 so we will have to learn it pretty well
12:56	and of course every time we ask him any question about it he says. dont ask me ask google! damm I hate that guy ....
12:57	so this is my last resource....
12:57	<ogra> well, we are all working on 5.0 ...
12:57	<jammcq> LTSP-4.2 should install very easily on RH9
12:57	<ogra> i dont even know how exactly 3.0 looked like :)
12:57	<jammcq> but why would he be wanting RH9 ?
12:58	that's like what..... 5 yrs old
12:58	<ogra> and surely unsupported as well ...
12:58	<Lumiere> rh9 has been unsupported for years
12:58	<ogra> no security updates ... fun :=
12:58	:)
12:59	<pscheie> I'm typing this on my RH8/K12LTSP 3.0.1 box as we speak, so to speak
12:59	:-)
12:59	<ogra> and likels 2.2 or 2.4 kernel all over the place
12:59	<Lumiere> ok pscheie meet MrNobody
12:59	<sbalneav> pscheie: What's you IP address? :)
12:59	<Lumiere> MrNobody... meet pscheie
12:59	lol
12:59	<MrNobody> actually I had fedora core 6 running but LTSP 3.0 wont install in it so I had to downgrade to RH9
12:59	<pscheie> sbalneav: my public addy?
12:59	<Lumiere> 207-250-245-21.static.twtelecom.net <_<
12:59	<sbalneav> Joke. Didn't really want it.
12:59	<pscheie> why, would you like to telnet into my box?;-)
13:00	<sbalneav> :)
13:00	<MrNobody> actually it doesn have to be red hat
13:00	can you recommend me another distro for trying?
13:00	<ogra> heh, ubuntu and ltsp5 g
13:00	<pscheie> what's the objective? just to get a working ltsp server that's running ver. 3?
13:00	<Lumiere> is the dapper drake ltsp5?
13:00	<ogra> but that wont teach you anything :)
13:01	<sbalneav> Better solution would be to provide us with the email of your prof, so we can convince him that LTSP 3.0 isn't a good thing to base an assignment on.
13:01	:)
13:01	<Lumiere> lol jammcq sending an email to the prof
13:01	<ogra> yeah, he should rather make you implement ltsp5 into recent fedora ;)
13:01	<Lumiere> I'd be laughing so hard
13:01	<sbalneav> Certain members of the LTSP aristocracy have been known to email high ranking government officials out of the blue!
13:01	<ogra> now that would be a nice school project :)
13:02	<sbalneav> With good results, I might add!
13:02	Oooh, that WOULD be a good project.
13:02	<pscheie> if he's going to make you work, do things the hard way, at least it should be something that furthers science
13:02	ltsp science in this case
13:02	<sbalneav> Step this way, MrNobody, my lad, we have some work for you to do. Muahahahaha
13:03	<ogra> heh
13:03	<pscheie> we need more profs on this list, to hand out ltsp subprojects as grad student projects
13:03	<sbalneav> MrNobody: short answer: LTSP authors told you LTSP 3.0 == Bad, LTSP 4.2 == Better, LTSP 5.0 == BEST
13:04	<MrNobody> ha ha ha ha
13:05	<pscheie> requiring ltsp 3.0 would be akin to requiring the use of thicknet ethernet
13:05	<MrNobody> I will give you the teachers mail in just a moment :)
13:05	<pscheie> it's old tech that nobody uses and has no future
13:06	<MrNobody> I feel the same way but I need a good grade.
13:06	<pscheie> I'm curious as to why he's requiring such old software, both OS and LTSP
13:06	<MrNobody> I think he make us use ver 3.0 since that is the version he has running and doesnt want to bother in upgrading to newer versions...
13:07	he did not specify an OS I just picked RH9 looking in the install scripts of ltsp and I checked that RH9 has a script for it... thats it
13:08	<pscheie> he should make you do the upgrade of his system for the assignment; that would be a worthwhile project
13:08	<MrNobody> yeah
13:09	<pscheie> make you document the problems--and you'd have a few, no doubt--and solutions, and post the whole thing to the ltsp wiki for peer review
13:10	jammcq_ has joined #ltsp
13:11	<MrNobody> this is the email address for my teacher
13:11	retsam.legna@gmail.com
13:11	I hope you guys could make him change his mind
13:13	thanks see you around :)
13:16	jammcq has quit IRC
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13:23	<pscheie> sbalneav: you going to write to MrNobody's teacher?
13:24	efra has quit IRC
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13:27	<sbalneav> working on it now!
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13:34	<cliebow_> sbalneav: aka Rolling Thunder" di you write that guy a resounding msg?
13:39	mhterres has joined #ltsp
13:39	<mhterres> hello
13:39	<cliebow_> Hey!
13:42	<mhterres> Hey cliebow_. Where are you from ?
13:42	<pscheie> cliebow is a lobster
13:43	IOW, from Maine
13:43	<mhterres> hmmm, US, great
13:43	I was wondering that maybe we can do a mini LTSP conference in fisl9.0
13:43	How about it guys ? jammcq, sbalneav, ogra, cliebow_ ?
13:43	:-)
13:43	<ogra> germany ...
13:44	but its likely tat canonical migth sponsor next FISL for me ...no promises though
13:44	<pscheie> what's FISL?
13:45	<mhterres> International Free Software Forum , in Brazil
13:46	<cliebow_> fisl9.0 in the Spring?
13:46	<mhterres> is in April
13:47	<cliebow_> Malt Beer..Red Meat off the bone!
13:47	<ogra> hmm,that migt clash with work for me ...
13:48	we usually have our release in april ...i will have to do iso tests half the april
13:48	<cliebow_> mhterres: you like lobster? wanna come up in the FAll?
13:51	Thunder has left #ltsp
13:52	<mhterres> ogra, it is true
13:52	cliebow_ I never eat lobster
13:53	* cliebow_ jammcq eats lobster 8~)
13:54	<sbalneav> ogra: You totally need to come to FISL
13:54	<ogra> sbalneav, well,bad timing, really
13:55	i cant vanish to a place without bandwidth short before a release
13:55	even though i should have help until april 08 :)
13:56	<jammcq> ogra: but.... you might be in luck. there was talk of the spring release being a LTS release, which might mean it'll release in June instead of April
13:56	<ogra> so who knows, i probably could ...
13:56	<jammcq> Mark said he wished he'd allocated more months from the beginning
13:56	<ogra> hmm, another LTS ...
13:56	:/
13:57	<jammcq> you say that, like you don't like LTS releases
13:57	* jammcq likes them
13:57	mhterres has quit IRC
13:57	<ogra> from a customer POV they are cool ... from a maintainer POV ....well
13:57	mhterres has joined #ltsp
13:57	<ogra> jammcq, just imagine you would still have to fully support ltsp 3.0 ;)
13:58	<mhterres> heheeh
13:58	<jammcq> point taken
14:01	<cliebow_> supporting ltsp3 while building lbe 8~)
14:01	<ogra> heh
14:02	<cliebow_> oh wait..he already did that.....
14:07	<joebaker> You all have a great sense of humor. Hey I hate to bug you all again. But where are the instructions for installing LTSP with Ubuntu 7.04?
14:07	<sbalneav> pscheie, jammcq, check this out
14:07	<ltsppbot> "sbalneav" pasted "Letter for MrNobody" (47 lines) at http://pastebot.ltsp.org/112
14:08	<ogra> joebaker, they didnt change https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/LTSPQuickInstall
14:08	<joebaker> Thanks
14:10	<cliebow_> sbalneav:looks just great..
14:10	<sbalneav> pscheie: ping
14:18	<pscheie> sbalneav: pong
14:19	<sbalneav> pscheie: See my paste?
14:19	pastebot.ltsp.org/112
14:19	<pscheie> reading it now...
14:21	Looks good, aside from the sentence "...however, there's lots of Linux distros
14:21	that there's currently no native support for LTSP in."
14:21	seems a bit...clumsy, grammatically
14:22	<sbalneav> Heh
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14:22	<pscheie> how about "...however, several Linux distros do not yet have native support for LTSP."
14:23	or "built-in support for LTSP."
14:23	<sbalneav> Probably be better, but since it was already sent :)
14:23	The clumsy will have to do :)
14:23	<cliebow_> sbalneav: you might add we could possibly conjure up some expert help for them too..
14:23	<pscheie> hey, I'm a firm believer in locking the barn after the horse is gone.
14:24	<cliebow_> maybe..
14:24	<sbalneav> I tend to write the way I speak. And half the time, I'm not really sure where the sentence is going 'till I get to the end :)
14:24	<cliebow_> you are at the end precisely when you mean to though
14:24	<pscheie> I'm hoping to get Hennepin Tech, our host for NCLS, to start a program in which students have to help a school to graduate
14:25	preferably, help the schools implement ltsp
14:25	<cliebow_> /are/arrive
14:25	<pscheie> seems like a real win-win arrangement
14:25	<sbalneav> Well, we'll see what s/he says. It's got the potential to not only give kids a good into to some cool tech stuff, but also make a real contribution to Free Software. Win/Win all around, i'd say.
14:26	Exactly
14:26	<cliebow_> lets hope he runs with it..
14:26	<sbalneav> That's the beauty of Free Software: getting involved only takes gumption.
14:26	<pscheie> You'd think that would be obvious
14:27	I'm always surprised by educators who don't see that, who think only in terms of commercial products
14:28	but perhaps it's just a geek's insight
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14:28	<sbalneav> Most people I run into have a hard time wrapping their minds around the concept that the COMPUTER is somehow physically separate from the SOFTWARE you run on it. I.e. "If it's a computer, it must run windows. If it doesn't run windows, it's not a computer."
14:29	I've bumped into lots of people who's minds are blown by Mac's
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14:30	<sbalneav> Gotta give credit where it's due. Microsoft markets so well, some people don't even KNOW there's anything else.
14:30	<pscheie> Marketing has always been MS's real strength
14:31	<cliebow_> I must give Mac credit for some otheir adverts..
14:31	i chuckle seeing the windows guy bloated..
14:32	<sbalneav> I like the new one, with the "Fatal Error" on the bottom of the cart.
14:32	<pscheie> I wish the Novell ads with the Linux girl were more clever
14:32	<sbalneav> "he's a goner"
14:33	<pscheie> 'course, I don't really watch tv, and I'm sure I'm not the target market
14:33	<joebaker> sbalneav: Nice letter. You might mention that 5.0 is being used in production by many.
14:33	The principles of LTSP are well understood. In LTSP 5.0 there is more of a focus on supporting these principles more directly.
14:33	Saving the LTSP developer's time by offloading the packages.
14:33	In short, the students would come out with a more focused assignment of learning the true elegance of the supporting infrastructure...
14:34	<pscheie> not to mention bona-fide resume fodder
14:35	EXPERIENCE: Developed mousetrap package for inclusion in LTSP 7, which is distributed around the world"
14:35	<joebaker> You know though that marketing giants are easy targets for spoofs. The Microsoft Butterfly. Since that Businessweek ad with the Penguin with the flyswatter have you seen the Microsoft butterfly much anymore?
14:36	<pscheie> Didn't OOo used to use a butterfly years ago? Perhaps in early StarOffice days?
14:37	<cliebow_> yep
14:37	<joebaker> Intel with their colored clean room suits with the guys dancing. Somebody spoofed that and it foiled their ad campaign. I forgot what the spoof was. There should be a team that does nothing but attacking Microsoft ad campaigns.
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14:43	<meduxa> hi, when is the BoF about ltsp in Ubuntu summit in seville?
14:45	<jammcq> meduxa: all week
14:45	<sbalneav> We'll hold several of them
14:46	<meduxa> perfect
14:46	I'll be there from 3rd until 8th so I'll be able to attend to a couple of them
14:47	thanks
14:48	* meduxa is away: Away at the moment
14:49	* kaminski-ltsp-br is away: 127.0.0.1
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15:12	<corn13read> is there a way to get beryl working on my thin clients if they are all the same?
15:13	<ogra> for compsite you need direct HW access ... so beryl would have to run locally
15:16	<corn13read> so there is no way to tell the configuration what my hw is and it talk to it? I would have to have hdd's in each system? they are all thinkpad t20's
15:17	<ogra> you could try a homebrewed fat client solution with ltsp5
15:18	<corn13read> sounds complicated...
15:18	<ogra> (install a desktop in the client chroot and boot the full system as nfsroot, that will need /home mounting from the server and something like ldap))
15:21	<corn13read> well I take it you really know what you are talking about. I am a local tech that has been a windows admin for a real estate company doing windows stuff. A partner in the firm has heard great things about open source and they told me to get it done... so i'm a linux babe. looks like i'm going to get my hands dirty. is there somewhere I can research what you just said or can you give me a quick vocabulary update?
15:21	I thank you for the help!
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15:26	<sbalneav> corn13read: Here's what you need to do.
15:26	1) Go to ubuntu.com
15:26	2) Download the latest Ubuntu, nicknamed Feisty Fawn
15:26	<corn13read> ok
15:26	<sbalneav> 3) burn to CD.
15:27	4) Install
15:27	5) Profit!
15:27	As well, check out Debian, too.
15:27	<corn13read> i've already got edubuntu installed with ltsp running and beryl installed on it and my thin client network up and running
15:27	<sbalneav> Well, there you go.
15:27	<PMantis> Beryl on a thin client??
15:27	<sbalneav> You're already at step 5. :)
15:28	<PMantis> HI sbalneav
15:28	<sbalneav> Hello PMantis
15:28	<PMantis> I wound't expect Beryl to work very well over a network...
15:29	Althought it's SLICK!
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15:30	<corn13read> it is gigabit and it would run local on hardware if i can get it figured out... lol
15:32	<PMantis> Well, gigabit might be ok anyhow. :)
15:33	<corn13read> if i need to i'll make it a firewire network i just need to get it done
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15:36	<corn13read> so basic answer is not possible for me to do?
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15:36	<PMantis> corn13read, I've never tried beryl... just expected that it wouldn't be fast enough.
15:36	At least not on LTSP
15:37	I have it on my laptop, and it great there.
15:37	<corn13read> i understand pmantis but i would make it so it ran on the laptop's hardware... That is what I want to do. I can install it and run it on the laptop just fine...
15:38	<PMantis> ahh cool
15:38	Q-FUNK has quit IRC
15:42	<corn13read> did you go afk ogra?
15:44	<sbalneav> Probably.
15:44	It's late now in Germany
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15:54	<milosz> ogra: what's the url for the wiki pages for specs
15:54	since i got some time to work on them
15:54	JMBarbosa has quit IRC
15:54	<milosz> i'll also provide a real life usecase of our university here
15:54	JMBarbosa has joined #ltsp
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15:58	<Guaraldo> I'm going now... See You!
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16:45	<milosz> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LDMLoadbalancingSupport
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16:51	* vagrantc wonders how to connect a wiki page to a "blueprint" spec
16:53	<milosz> it's a brain dump right now... but i'll work it on for the next two days
16:53	<vagrantc> looks great
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18:09	<BucWheat> hi all
18:10	my thin clients can't access the internet via mozilla. when i open xterm i can ping www.yahoo.com but when i put www.yahoo.com in mozilla i get page not found
18:10	what would cause this?
18:10	i'm running debian sarge
18:13	nyone here?
18:16	<cliebow> hmm..option routers
18:16	like defining gateway for tihns
18:17	..was thinking rdesktop..forget it
18:20	bobby_C has quit IRC
18:23	<BucWheat> let me look in dhcp.conf file
18:24	i have option routers pointing to the ltsp server which is 192.168.2.50 should that be the ip address of the router?
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18:31	<vagrantc> BucWheat: that shouldn't matter for the most part.
18:31	BucWheat: do you have a proxy on the network?
18:31	BucWheat: if you can ping a site, but aren't able to use a web browser to go to it ... either a proxy is in the way or maybe some weird firewalling
18:33	<BucWheat> vagrantc: no proxy. this is how the network is configured
18:34	WAN Provider->Router->Router w/ 4-port switch->clients
18:34	<vagrantc> where's the LTSP server?
18:34	<BucWheat> the first router gives off ip address of 192.168.254.0 and the second router gives off ip addresses of 192.168.2.0
18:34	behind the last router
18:34	<vagrantc> so is it really router -> LTSP server -< clients ?
18:34	<BucWheat> i was trying to implement a hacked up vlan to separate this environment from the rest of the shop using the wan
18:35	no wan->router 1->router 2->LTSP server->clients
18:35	<vagrantc> yeah
18:36	BucWheat: can you get to other web sites? can you use a text based web browser like lynx or links ?
18:36	<BucWheat> vagrantc: no
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18:37	<vagrantc> BucWheat: can other machines plugged into router2 access the web ?
18:38	BucWheat: and did you know that debian etch was released a few weeks ago ? :)
18:39	<BucWheat> yea i'm on a windows box now accessing the internet plugged into router 2
18:40	vagrantc: is there a way to check dhcp leases from ltsp client?
18:40	<vagrantc> BucWheat: are you running mozilla locally?
18:41	<BucWheat> to make sure clients accessing ltsp dhcp server and not router dhcp server?
18:41	vagrantc: nah just on server
18:41	<vagrantc> well, if they're accessing the router's dhcp server, you wouldn't even be able to boot.
18:41	<BucWheat> well i know i made changes to router (reset it) and never rebooted the servers
18:42	<vagrantc> or sometimes you would be able to boot, and sometimes not
18:42	<BucWheat> how can i check dhcp leases in debian?
18:42	<vagrantc> /var/lib/dhcp3
18:42	or /var/lib/dhcp
18:43	<BucWheat> ah ha! i have nothing in there. not a one thin client
18:43	<vagrantc> if the thin clients sucessfully boot and log in, dhcp is not your problem.
18:43	<BucWheat> i should have the dhcp server in front of the ltsp server turned off right?
18:43	let me reboot one of the thin clients and see if it tries to pull its ip from thin client or router
18:43	<vagrantc> BucWheat: you have the clients plugged into router2 ?
18:44	<BucWheat> vagrantc: right. let me go check to make sure though
18:44	<vagrantc> yeah, the simplest thing would be to configure your dhcp server on the LTSP server, and disable dhcp on the router.
18:45	two dhcp servers on the same physical network is madness.
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18:49	<corn13read> I just reinstalled my server and now my clients don't pull ip's. My syslog says it releases an ip but it never goes beyond that point... anyone got any ideas?
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18:49	<BucWheat> vagrantc: i'm gong to disable the dhcp server on router now
18:50	and then reboot thin client. the client can connect to ltsp server with router 2 dhcp up but i think that is causing the problem somehoe
18:51	<vagrantc> i mean, if you can configure the router's dhcp server properly, it should work fine.
18:51	but they tend not to be very flexible or poorly documented.
18:52	<BucWheat> dhcp server on router 2 disabled. rebooting thin client now
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18:54	<BucWheat> vagrantc, about to release renew on windows box to see if i pull ip from ltsp server
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18:57	<corn13read> vagrantc, are you having the same issue i am?
18:57	<vagrantc> corn13read: nope
18:58	<corn13read> what's your issue?
18:58	<vagrantc> most everything's working great for me. my main issue is wanting to sync the debian and ubuntu bzr branches :)
18:59	<corn13read> oh ok
18:59	<vagrantc> which hopefully we'll do over the next couple weeks
19:00	* vagrantc also tries to help people when vagrantc can
19:01	<corn13read> i am having much more trouble since i switched to edubuntu... ubuntu worked great for me...
19:01	I was trying to get beryl working on mine but looks impossible at my current linux knowledge level...
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19:11	<BucWheat> vagrantc, no dice
19:11	i started dhcp3 service on ltsp server and widows boxes can't get an ip address from it
19:12	what would casue this?
19:12	<vagrantc> there's some special options needed for windows machines.
19:12	do the thin-clients work now?
19:13	* vagrantc wonders when jammcq and scotty arrive
19:14	<BucWheat> let me reboot one and see. got side tracked
19:19	still no dice
19:20	no internet access from thin clients
19:20	still no leases in leases file
19:22	now i do have an /etc/dhcp.conf as well as /etc/dhcp3/dhcp.conf
19:23	sould i delete the first dhcp.conf ?
19:24	vagrantc, you there?
19:25	about to make a change to router might disconnect momentarily
19:26	<cliebow> BucWheat in debiasn the controlling file "should" be /etc/dhcp3/dhcpd.conf...but you'd best check that dhcp is running on the ltsp server with netstat -anp\|grep ":67"
19:28	<vagrantc> /etc/dhcpd.conf is from 2.x and older versions of dhcp server ... i recommend dhcp3-server instead
19:28	BucWheat: but do what cliebow says.
19:29	<cliebow> vagrantc, heh god help you
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19:30	<vagrantc> cliebow: why you gotta drag god into whatever it is you think i need help with? :P
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19:31	<cliebow> how about "jah protect you"
19:32	<vagrantc> cliebow: i'm more of a church of compost sort of guy
19:33	<cliebow> me too..
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20:01	<jammcq> hello kids
20:05	<vagrantc> jammcq: when you getting to sevilla?
20:10	<jammcq> vagrantc: hey. We arrive around 8:30pm on wednesday
20:11	* vagrantc will be getting there considerably earlier
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22:06	<sbalneav> Evening all
22:06	<jammcq> !s
22:07	<ltspbot> jammcq: "s" is Scotty!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
22:07	<sbalneav> jammcq: Sorry! Took me longer on my errands tonight than I thought! :(
22:07	Want to try the camera?
22:07	<jammcq> sbalneav: hey, I'm video-chatting with Marlon
22:07	it's way cool
22:07	<sbalneav> Oh, cool
22:08	<jammcq> he helped me figure out the magic goo to make it work
22:09	ok, you got your webcam hooked up ?
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22:11	<sbalneav> No, not at the moment.
22:11	Gimme a few
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22:12	<jammcq> mfdutra: hey buddy
22:12	<mfdutra> hey!!!
22:12	sbalneav, hey dude!!
22:13	<sbalneav> Hey Marlon!
22:13	How's it going?
22:13	<mfdutra> I'm great and you?
22:13	I just had a video call with jim. it works very well
22:15	I gotta go. my dead is calling for going out
22:15	dad...
22:15	:)
22:15	<jammcq> ciao.
22:15	thanks for the help
22:16	<mfdutra> you're welcome
22:16	have fun
22:16	have a good trip tomorrow
22:16	<jammcq> thanks
22:16	have fun on your travels
22:16	<mfdutra> thanks
22:16	many chicks up there
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22:25	* jammcq wonders if scotty is still here
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23:06	<jammcq> sbalneav: ping