IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.libera.chat (webchat)
Channel log from 25 July 2017 (all times are UTC)
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| 07:55 | <ZAJDAN> alkisg: HI...yesterday we spoke about the problem with LDM vs gnome-keyring ...you told me, that some new version has fixed the problem...
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| 07:56 | <alkisg> Yes
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| 07:57 | <ZAJDAN> you mean new version of LTSP?
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| 07:57 | <alkisg> Are you using jessie?
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| 07:58 | Or stretch?
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| 07:58 | !version
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| 07:58 | <ltsp`> An error has occurred and has been logged. Please contact this bot's administrator for more information.
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| 07:58 | <alkisg> Eh, anyway, which ltsp version are you using now
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| 08:03 | <ZAJDAN> Debian Jessie/32bit-Mate, ltsp 5.5.4.-4
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| 08:16 | <alkisg> Yes you need a newer ltsp
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| 08:17 | <ZAJDAN> the newer package exist for jessie?
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| 08:17 | <alkisg> I don't know, check packages.debian.org
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| 08:18 | jessie-backports => 5.5.8-1~bpo8+1
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| 08:19 | <ZAJDAN> this version is with the fix yes?
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| 08:22 | <alkisg> The fix is in ltsp since 5.5.6-1
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| 08:23 | <ZAJDAN> is enough install ltsp-server or all ltsp-... ?
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| 08:25 | do I have to unistall the older version or is works just reinstall via dpkg -i ltsp-... ?
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| 08:25 | <fiesh> I guess there is no way to add command line options to the X server, is there? iglx can currently only be activated via command line option, not xorg.conf option -- so I hacked it directly into screen.d/ldm
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| 08:27 | Also, any clues on why my X server isn't listening on TCP any more in the updated version? Thus LDM_DIRECTX isn't working, only X via ssh
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| 08:29 | <alkisg> fiesh: ./screen.d/ldm:exec xinit /usr/share/ltsp/xinitrc /usr/sbin/ldm -- ${DISPLAY} vt${TTY} -auth ${XAUTHORITY} ${X_ARGS} "$@" -br >/dev/null 2>&1
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| 08:29 | You can put X_ARGS in lts.conf I think
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| 08:29 | <fiesh> alkisg: ah OK, didn't find it in the man page
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| 08:30 | <alkisg> The code is the best documentation
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| 08:30 | I don't think anyone has worked in the documentation for ages
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| 08:30 | About tcp, newer xorg versions require a -listentcp param, see the code again
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| 08:30 | It's probably not activated on your distro
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| 08:31 | ./screen.d/ldm: # Xorg after 1.17 needs `-listen tcp`, see
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| 08:31 | ./screen.d/ldm: X_ARGS="-listen tcp $X_ARGS"
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| 08:31 | <fiesh> ah awesome, thank you
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| 08:31 | <alkisg> np
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| 08:31 | <fiesh> then I can double-use or test X_ARGS in lts.conf :)
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| 08:32 | <alkisg> Right
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| 08:36 | <ZAJDAN> alkisg: nstalling new version of config file /etc/init.d/ltsp-client-core ... Installing new version of config file /etc/init/ltsp-client-core.conf ... Configuration file '/etc/ltsp/update-kernels.conf' ==> Modified (by you or by a script) since installation. ==> Package distributor has shipped an updated version. What would you like to do about it ? Your options are: Y or I : install the package maintainer's version N or
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| 08:36 | what do you recommend?
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| 08:37 | <fiesh> alkisg: ok awesome, X_ARGS in lts.conf was my savior, controls everything
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| 08:37 | <alkisg> fiesh: cool
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| 08:37 | <fiesh> glx working again, direct x working again, everything going well
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| 08:38 | <alkisg> ZAJDAN: check the differences, you probably have IPAPPEND=3 there
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| 08:38 | <fiesh> now I just need to fix the dumb mouse acceleration change they somehow introduced in the more recent xorg version, haha
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| 08:38 | I _hate_ mouse acceleration
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| 08:38 | alkisg: btw, we're not the only ones who rely on remote opengl ;) https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Xorg-IGLX-Potential-Bye-Bye
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| 08:39 | <alkisg> fiesh: yes I've sent you that link in our previous discussion :)
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| 08:40 | <fiesh> oh I forget, hehe
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| 08:42 | it's such a shame the concept of remote X / opengl etc. seems to be dwindling... and surprising to me in particular in the light of the cloud hype that's going on
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| 08:42 | you'd think that having your whole IT infrastructure in a data center and only using thin clients would be a rather attractive set-up for many companies in the future
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| 08:43 | <alkisg> No, because screen transfers require 2+ gbps
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| 08:44 | It might become attractive again if they manage to send it in a compressed video stream, like some online gaming companies do
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| 08:44 | This will require hardware changes though
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| 08:44 | <fiesh> but not really, except maybe for watching videos and the likes
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| 08:45 | <alkisg> Right, if you omit web browsing, then people don't want to use computers
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| 08:45 | <fiesh> for normal work, including 3d operations because indirect gl is very fast, things work well
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| 08:45 | <alkisg> No, scrolling firefox etc still requires 2 gbps
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| 08:45 | <fiesh> no, web browsing is perfectly fine (using xrender in firefox, disabling it makes it unusable)
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| 08:45 | no
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| 08:45 | <alkisg> Unless you expect lag
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| 08:45 | Do the math
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| 08:45 | !thin-clients-bandwidth
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| 08:45 | <ltsp`> thin-clients-bandwidth: A small explanation why thin clients can't perform well with video, lots of screen updates etc: https://sourceforge.net/p/ltsp/mailman/message/35694699/
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| 08:45 | <alkisg> If you want to send HD at 60 fps, then yes
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| 08:45 | If you are ok with a few fps and a few lag, sure
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| 08:46 | But of course companies won't invest on "lag by design"
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| 08:46 | <fiesh> alkisg: we run 4K monitors over 1gbit, firefox full screen, it scrolls very smoothly -- but only if gfx.xrender.enabled is enabled
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| 08:46 | if it's disabled, what you describe happens
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| 08:46 | <alkisg> You can save some bandwidth on *some* apps that can send client-side scrolling commands
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| 08:47 | That's a very limited usage scenario
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| 08:47 | <fiesh> well ok, I'm talking specifically about firefox here
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| 08:47 | (or thunderbird, which uses the same backend)(
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| 08:47 | both perform well over 1gibt with 4K monitors in full screen
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| 08:47 | <alkisg> And I'm sure that if you measure it formally, you'll still see dropped frames
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| 08:48 | E.g. chromium has an option to show you all drawing commands, where you can see the exact fps
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| 08:48 | <fiesh> I don't think X does support dropping frames, does it?
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| 08:48 | oh the client does itself, I see
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| 08:48 | disabling gfx.xrender.enabled on firefox leads to awful performance, and no frames are dropped
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| 08:48 | <alkisg> Sure, there's compositing, vsync, all sorts of monsters there
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| 08:48 | It's impossible, so sorry I don't believe you
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| 08:49 | When the maths say 2 gbps per client, you can't convince me it works for e.g. 10 clients on 1 gbps
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| 08:49 | You can convince me that you don't see the dropped frames, sure
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| 08:49 | But not that there aren't there
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| 08:50 | Your eyes might be ok with even 5 fps, but you can't send 60 fps per client, when 1 client needs 2 gpbs
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| 08:51 | <fiesh> is there a way to measure dropped frames with firefox? chromium never works here
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| 08:51 | <alkisg> Dunno
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| 08:51 | 1920*1080*60*32=3981312000, 4 gbps per client for real HD screen trasferes
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| 08:52 | So for 10 clients you'd need 40 gbps
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| 08:52 | Not something to invest on
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| 08:53 | <fiesh> avg 54 fps
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| 08:53 | when scrolling around
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| 08:54 | also I don't see why per se a full screen refresh would be necessary for scrolling, when you only need to update one scan line
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| 08:54 | I don't know what programs do it, but it would seem firefox does it
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| 08:55 | when I disable gfx.xrender.enabled, I'm quite sure it does full screen redrawing, because then the performance is like you'd expect it to be in this case
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| 08:55 | <fiesh> bbl
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| 09:05 | <ZAJDAN> alkisg: I upgraded ltsp to the version 5.5.8.1 ...updated image, but gnome keyring save password just for running session, after reboot ask me again
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| 09:05 | <alkisg> ZAJDAN: yes, that's because ldm doesn't unlock the keyring on login so you need to unlock the keyring manually on each login
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| 09:05 | It will be solved in ltsp 6 which will drop ldm
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| 09:06 | But the "not working at all" issue was solved.
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| 09:06 | <ZAJDAN> ok ok
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| 09:30 | and the version 6 will be this year?
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| 09:37 | <alkisg> No, we need to find funding before implementing ltsp 6
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| 09:37 | I don't know when we'll find sponsorship
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| 11:57 | <ZAJDAN> alkisg: where I can send some donation?
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| 13:15 | <alkisg> !learn donation as There's no formal group or company behind LTSP, so if you want to donate, select a developer that does some coding/bug fixing/etc for you, and donate to him
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| 13:15 | <ltsp`> The operation succeeded.
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