IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.libera.chat (webchat)
Channel log from 14 September 2012 (all times are UTC)
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| 01:26 | <joulez> hi, is there any benefit installing a fast gpu on the server?
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| 01:29 | <dead_inside> i doubt it… but honestly never tried
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| 01:30 | <joulez> we have 3 users on a dell 1850 and cpu climbs with scaling an image in real time (kde4 heh).
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| 01:31 | just upgraded to squeeze..so kde4 is pretty intense :)
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| 01:32 | guess we need a gigbit+ net too.
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| 04:13 | <joulez> hi, managed to improve performance a bit messing with X options...I wonder if ultimately NX over ltsp would be better.
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| 04:13 | <alkisg> !directx
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| 04:13 | <ltsp> directx: If you want to turn off encryption to the workstation, which will speed up performance at the cost of security, you need to specify LDM_DIRECTX=True in your lts.conf file. Type !docs in IRC to get a link to the current documentation
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| 04:14 | <joulez> !nx
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| 04:14 | <ltsp> nx: http://wiki.ltsp.org/twiki/bin/view/Ltsp/WorkInProgress#NX or http://wiki.ltsp.org/twiki/bin/view/Ltsp/FreeNX
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| 04:15 | <joulez> heh
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| 04:17 | <alkisg> nx is better over dsl lines, remote X (ltsp) on lan
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| 04:18 | <joulez> ic
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| 04:20 | youtube destroys
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| 04:20 | <alkisg> !flash
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| 04:20 | <ltsp> flash: Yes, flash sucks. Make sure you have LDM_DIRECTX=True in your lts.conf file, or if it's just youtube you're after, try some flash replacing plugin like https://addons.mozilla.org/el/firefox/addon/161869/ (per user installation, gecko-mediaplayer is also needed).
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| 04:21 | <joulez> in regards to cpu and bandwidth.
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| 04:22 | <alkisg> If your clients are good enough, localapps or ltsp fat clients solve that problem
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| 04:23 | <joulez> server plays better than the clients :)
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| 04:23 | <alkisg> Usually 512+ RAM in the clients means they're good enough to have firefox+flash as a localapp
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| 04:24 | Localapps don't waste any server CPU at all, and only a bit of bandwidth
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| 04:24 | (e.g. 1 mpbs instead of 100 mbps)
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| 04:35 | <joulez> as long as they are low res videos sure.
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| 05:41 | <mrcarrot> I wish localapps would be that bad... but sadly they are not.
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| 05:42 | I have still to solve how to get flash to run smoothly on debian squeeze. In some way when running FF+flash as localapp, the sound is still several seconds late.
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| 05:42 | Like totally out of sync.
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| 05:42 | Sorry, actually, the picture is late, I meant.
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| 05:44 | <alkisg> I think debian has some issues with pulse/alsa sync, while they're solved in ubuntu...
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| 07:28 | <cyberorg> alkisg, distro with epoptes+ltsp integration :) http://lizards.opensuse.org/2012/09/14/announcing-the-release-of-opensuse-edu-li-f-e-12-2/
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| 07:28 | <alkisg> Very nice cyberorg, thanks! :)
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| 07:36 | <cyberorg> alkisg, create live fat stick and give it a test ride, cant match ubuntu for resource requirement and boot speed but otherwise everything is good
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| 07:44 | <ogra_> your bootspeed will surely increase once suse switched fully to systemd :P
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| 07:44 | (have fun porting ltsp to that *grin*)
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| 07:47 | <Hyperbyte> ogra_, actually, I believe vagrantc said porting LTSP to systemd would be very easy, since most of the LTSP stuff runs -before- init.
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| 07:48 | <ogra_> depends if suse decides to use systemd in initrd :)
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| 07:49 | ubuntu will soon move to upstart in init5d because it will speed up booting massively
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| 07:49 | i woudl suspect the systemd distros will go the same path
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| 07:50 | <cyberorg> ogra_, systemd is compatible with sysvinit scripts, some automatic conversion happens so ltsp init script runs as systemd on 12.2
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| 07:50 | suse uses systemd in initrd as well
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| 07:51 | <ogra_> ah, like upstart then, i only heard it isnt fully sysv compatible
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| 07:52 | <cyberorg> installed system with dracut initrd is somewhat faster than default initrd
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| 07:52 | <knipwim> cyberorg: you use dracut for nfs booting or nbd?
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| 07:53 | <cyberorg> knipwim, not for ltsp, for that we use kiwi's initrd, we do have too many different initrd tools :)
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| 07:54 | http://blog.crozat.net/2012/07/my-hackweek8-project-dracut.html
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| 07:56 | boot in 2 seconds anyone? http://lizards.opensuse.org/2012/07/31/optimizing-a-boot-time-aka-2-second-boot-part-2/
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| 08:00 | <ogra_> pfft ... to console
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| 08:01 | <cyberorg> :)
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| 08:01 | <ogra_> even my ubuntu oneiric install was capable of doing that (on SSD)
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| 08:01 | <cyberorg> that is why i say i am impressed with ubuntu's boot speed
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| 08:04 | <ogra_> booting to gdm in 8 secs http://people.canonical.com/~ogra/osiris-lucid-20100311-3.png
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| 08:04 | ;)
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| 08:04 | two years ago :)
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| 08:05 | <cyberorg> all i have to do is turn on monitor, 1 sec to desktop ;)
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| 08:05 | <ogra_> sadly it degraded and will need some love in the next few releases
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| 08:05 | but the switch to upstart in initrd will solve that ;)
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| 08:06 | <cyberorg> why not try dracut?
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| 08:06 | <ogra_> would require too many changes ... we use what debian uses
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| 08:07 | everything making any use of initrd stuff is written for initramfs-tools, you would have to port the world
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| 08:07 | i doubt ubuntu has the spare manpower to do that without debian going first
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| 08:07 | <cyberorg> ogra_, not really, dracut already has the world ported
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| 08:08 | <ogra_> you mean it would magically fix all debian packages to be moved from initramfs-tools scripts to dracut ?
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| 08:08 | heh
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| 08:08 | <cyberorg> someday suse might switch to it
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| 08:08 | <ogra_> there are thousands of packages that install initramfs-tools hooks and scripts
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| 08:09 | all of them have to be touched, tested and fixed
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| 08:09 | moving to upstart (until we were confident its good enough as default) took us 4 years
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| 08:10 | <cyberorg> dracut's approach is slightly different, initrd's task is to mount root and switch to it as quickly as possible, rest is taken care by the system image
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| 08:10 | <ogra_> (upstart was introduced in 2006 and we only switched away from its sysv mode in 2010)
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| 08:11 | right, ubuntu has a policy that this initrd will still do exactly what you say if you replace all HW in your computer
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| 08:11 | <cyberorg> yeah there is a big discussion about dropping sysvinit support in upcoming release, with strong sentiments on both sides :)
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| 08:11 | <ogra_> would dracut cover that case ?
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| 08:11 | (general purpose initrd)
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| 08:11 | <cyberorg> yes, dracut has host only mode as well general purpose mode
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| 08:12 | <ogra_> ah, nice
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| 08:12 | but i doubt you will see such a move in the near future in debian or ubuntu
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| 08:13 | like you wont see either of them using systemd
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| 08:13 | (as a default)
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| 08:13 | <cyberorg> btw, don't know much about dracut except that i tested it and everything "just worked" dracut /boot/dracutinitrd and added additional section in grub to use
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| 08:13 | <ogra_> or dropping /usr
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| 08:14 | <cyberorg> ogra_, never? may be someday someone at debian may look at http://0pointer.de/blog/projects/why.html :)
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| 08:15 | <ogra_> near future :)
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| 08:15 | there are enmough "why's" to not switch
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| 08:15 | you wont see systemd used on servers for quite some time still
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| 08:16 | <cyberorg> i have high hopes for dracut though, that will make ltsp generic enough across distros
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| 08:17 | <ogra_> i have high hopes for upstart in initrd, that will make ltsp extremely fast :)
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| 08:20 | <vlt> Hello. On LTSP we are switching from Ubuntu 10.04 to 12.04 LTS now. When the client boots it fills ~950 MB of RAM (including nbd_swap) with something. Any idea how to find out what uses this much memory and how to prevent this?
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| 08:20 | <ogra_> htop should be able to show you what uses the ram
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| 08:21 | (in a more accurate way than top)
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| 08:21 | s/accurate/readable/
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| 08:21 | if its nbd swap thats filled you likely want to run it as a localapp on the client
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| 08:29 | <vlt> ogra_: Here's a top output first: http://pastebin.com/fsiCAAte
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| 08:29 | ogra_: What do I want to run as localapp?
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| 08:37 | <ogra_> you should sort by mem
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| 08:37 | (hit shift+m)
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| 08:38 | <vlt> ogra_: This is "top -n1"
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| 08:38 | * vlt will try to find out how to sort by mem on cmd line | |
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| 08:42 | <vlt> ogra_: Don't know how to sort by mem but I can see (even without sorting) that the max value is 0.7 (top itself) and then 0.4 (Xorg).
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| 08:42 | 0.7 % even
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| 08:43 | <ogra_> well, it defaults to CPU sorting ... if you haver a process not using much CPU but all your ram it might not be shows
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| 08:43 | *shown
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| 08:43 | <vlt> ogra_: I think these are ALL processes
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| 08:51 | ogra_: I made a list of all processes with "ps axwuf": http://suez.musketa.de/ps.bz2
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| 08:53 | ogra_: Ok, stop ... I'll examine /etc/rc.local first ...
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| 08:53 | <ogra_> rc.local ??
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| 08:53 | should be empty by default
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| 08:53 | <vlt> ogra_: There are thousands of rc.local forks.
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| 08:54 | ogra_: Found it: /etc/rc.local calls /etc/rc.local
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| 08:54 | nfc why
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| 08:55 | <ogra_> ouch
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| 08:55 | it should only have exit 0 in it by default
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| 08:55 | and some comments at the top
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| 08:57 | <vlt> /etc/rc.local in the chroot environment is ok: Only "exit 0"
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| 08:57 | Do you know what could overwrite that file on the client?
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| 08:58 | <ogra_> nope, probably alkisg does
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| 08:58 | <alkisg> RC_FILEx in lts.conf adds commands to rc.local
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| 08:59 | * alkisg hasn't read the discussion so far... | |
| 08:59 | <ogra_> alkisg, seems /etc/rc.local on the client has a call to /etc/rc.local in it
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| 08:59 | so it recursively starts itself in a loop intol nbd swap is filled
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| 08:59 | <alkisg> If lts.conf has RCFILE_0=/etc/rc.local... :)
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| 08:59 | <ogra_> *until
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| 09:00 | heh, yeah
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| 09:00 | * vlt checks | |
| 09:02 | <vlt> alkisg, ogra_: WTF? My lts.conf indeed has RCFILE_01=/etc/rc.local. Don't know why. Is this needed in older systems?
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| 09:02 | <alkisg> Maybe, not sure
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| 09:02 | Just remove it :)
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| 09:03 | <ogra_> did you use ltsp4 before ?
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| 09:03 | you should definitely not use an lts.conf from it on ltsp5
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| 09:03 | <vlt> ogra_: We came from Ubuntu 06.06 LTS all the way ...
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| 09:03 | <ogra_> ah
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| 09:03 | i dont think 6.06 even knew about the RCFILE_0 option
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| 09:04 | <vlt> ogra_: Yeah, but maybe in 08.04 or 10.04 we/someone added it for some strange reason. We'll remove it and try. Thanks.
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| 09:04 | alkisg: Thanks.
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| 09:04 | <alkisg> yw
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| 09:04 | <ogra_> :)
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| 09:37 | <mealstrom> oh... ubuntu 6.06 .. sound like we came from past.. i can just say wow :D
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| 10:16 | <muppis> Still having an issue with jetpipe in 10.04, so I wonder coudl I replace it with a newer one (if there's any) or replace it with USB/IP ?
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| 10:28 | <ogra_> what kind of problems =
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| 10:28 | ?
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| 10:28 | <muppis> jetpipe just dies.
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| 10:29 | After restart works few hours, maybe days, and then dies again.
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| 10:30 | * ogra_ isnt sure there changed much between 12.04 and 12.04 in jetpipe | |
| 10:30 | <ogra_> err
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| 10:30 | 10.04 and 12.04
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| 10:30 | <muppis> Just checked, nothing has changed.
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| 10:32 | <ogra_> right
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| 10:33 | i would suspect it eats memory over time and then the kernel kills it with OOM ... you should try to monitor that
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| 14:44 | <ltspuser_52> Hello everyone, I am looking to deploy a training area for our Ubuntu users and was thinking LTSP might be the answer. What I want is for those being trained to be able to connect to an ubuntu desktop via Thin Client to play around and learn. Is this the right product?
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| 14:48 | <alexc123> Hi ltspuser_52, sounds like it will be the right product for you.
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| 14:49 | <ltspuser_52> great, does it actually give the thin client user a full desktop to work on?
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| 14:49 | <alexc123> Yes it does.
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| 14:49 | <ltspuser_52> great, and finally is there any way to make them stateless? e.g. user logs in, changes settings etc then when they log off it is reset?
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| 14:51 | <alexc123> yes, it is partially stateless as is, but user specific settings will be saved (docs, background, etc ...) it is possible to make it completely "stateless" or unchangeable by the users
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| 14:51 | <ltspuser_52> excellent, will download and try it out. Thanks for the advice
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| 14:52 | <alexc123> glad to help.
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| 14:52 | <knipwim> alexc123: maybe a demo video is a good idea
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| 14:52 | disklessworkstations has some tutorials
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| 14:52 | but no real demo video, showing all ltsp features
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| 14:52 | <alexc123> knipwim: videos are always a good idea! demo video or client booting?
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| 14:52 | yeah those videos are more technical introductions & tutorials ... not "sales / mkt" type video
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| 14:53 | <knipwim> i mean a sales video indeed
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| 14:53 | <alexc123> knipwim: did you see the nepal success story?
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| 14:53 | <knipwim> show how a pentium 3 without a harddrive boots unity
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| 14:53 | * knipwim looking | |
| 14:54 | <knipwim> wow! 19!
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| 14:55 | <alexc123> those are the stories i'm looking for! need more!
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| 14:55 | <ltspuser_52> I'll take a look at some of those stoies too, thanks again
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| 14:55 | <knipwim> supercool
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| 15:14 | <alkisg_zotac> highvoltage, stgraber: <=== ;)
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| 15:14 | Really cool!!!
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| 15:16 | <stgraber> alkisg_zotac: ?
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| 15:16 | <alkisg_zotac> Got it yesterday
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| 15:17 | (the tablet)
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| 15:18 | I'm trying external keyboard/mouse, they're working but have some stick ykeys
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| 15:19 | <alkisg_zatab> Whoops :)
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| 15:20 | <alexc123> hehe alkisg_zatab ... zotac vs zatab very different
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| 15:21 | <ogra_> nah, cant be, they both start with z
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| 15:21 | <alkisg_zatab> (and both were unknown words for me till today :D)
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| 15:21 | <ogra_> alkisg_zatab, so you got yours
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| 15:21 | (GRRR)
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| 15:21 | <alkisg_zatab> stgraber, ogra_, did anyone manage to boot ubuntu into this yet?
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| 15:21 | Haha
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| 15:22 | <ogra_> german customs didnt give me mine ...
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| 15:22 | they want the invoice
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| 15:22 | <alkisg_zatab> Customs in greece needed the money so they were fast with it :P
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| 15:22 | <ogra_> haha
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| 15:22 | <alkisg_zatab> (nah no money involved)
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| 15:22 | <alexc123> haha
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| 15:22 | <ogra_> i could send them money, would they call the germans ?
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| 15:22 | <vagrantc> what's the latest toy y'all are playing with?
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| 15:23 | <ogra_> vagrantc, -> alkisg_zatab
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| 15:23 | the zatab apparenly :)
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| 15:23 | <stgraber> alkisg_zatab: I managed to make an image that boots quite successfuly on a pre-prod model, sadly not on ours :)
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| 15:23 | * vagrantc can't believe someone is forcing vagrantc to use a search engine | |
| 15:23 | <alkisg_zatab> :(
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| 15:24 | <stgraber> alkisg_zatab: one of my colleagues suggested that perhaps some model identifier is slightly different between pre-prod and prod and that the only change required would be to add that ID to uboot and the kernel
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| 15:24 | but I'm quite busy with other things lately so haven't had the time to look into that yet
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| 15:24 | <ogra_> we'll get it going i'm sure
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| 15:25 | <stgraber> ogra_: yeah, the fact that pre-prod works and prod doesn't when the only known difference (according to Zareason) is a LCD model change means that whatever the problem is, it should be quite small and easy to fix
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| 15:25 | <alkisg_zatab> Meh my browser decided that I don't need a scrollbar so I can't see what you people post from now on :(
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| 15:25 | <ogra_> yep
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| 15:26 | <alkisg_zatab> brb from a real pc, will play with this one later
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| 15:26 | <stgraber> alkisg_zatab, ogra_: that's my current test script: http://paste.ubuntu.com/1204965/. It generates a bootable image on /dev/sdb
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| 15:26 | * ogra_ doesnt post into scrollbars | |
| 15:26 | <ogra_> never !
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| 15:26 | <gvy> scrollfree only?
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| 15:27 | alkisg, but scrollbars are too complex for [...] users!
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| 15:27 | * gvy hides | |
| 15:27 | <stgraber> (oh, apparently I'm still missing the fdisk scripting in that one. You need two partitions, one vfat (>10MB should do) and one ext4 (remaining of the space), both primary partitions)
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| 15:27 | <ogra_> gvy, he cant see you :P
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| 15:28 | * alkisg1 checks irclogs... | |
| 15:29 | <vagrantc> must be an old uboot to require vfat... ?
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| 15:30 | <stgraber> vagrantc: it's a pretty recent u-boot actually, but the firmware in the a10 looks for a script.bin file too and AFAIK the firmware only understands vfat
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| 15:30 | <stgraber> so it was easier to have one vfat partition with kernel, initrd and script.bin at the same place
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| 15:31 | <ogra_> yeah, thats what we do for ubuntu images too
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| 15:33 | * alkisg1 just realized that he could have scrolled with a finger instead of almost getting his mouse killed :P | |
| 15:33 | <ogra_> LOL
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| 15:34 | <gvy> ogra_, that's the point of hiding :D
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| 15:34 | <ogra_> :)
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| 16:44 | <roasted> hello!
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| 16:44 | I have q uick question to run by you guys
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| 16:45 | dealing with a 12.04 server here with LTSP where users who's home dir's don't exist are not able to log in (this server is bound to an AD domain)
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| 16:45 | syslog says "failed to create home directory for user (user, name), actual error 40052
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| 16:45 | I googled but that seems to be a Windows error? How is that windows error possible in syslog?
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| 16:51 | <gvy> IIRC there was pam_mkhomedir for such cases
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| 16:52 | and the windows error *code* (not *message*) is what has probably hit your syslog :)
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| 16:53 | disclaimer: I've only used that PAM module with altlinux, not with ubuntu
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| 16:56 | <roasted> gvy: suggesting what, that the fix resides on the linux side of things or windows?
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| 17:08 | <alkisg> roasted: I think you need to explain where and how do you expect the home dir to be created, if not by using pam_mkhomedir
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| 17:08 | <roasted> alkisg: I think we may have a solution here, actually
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| 17:08 | I think somebody was on the server who shouldn't of been playing around with permissions
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| 17:09 | that said maybe I made a mistake
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| 17:09 | as root:root 755 is what /home should be after all
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| 17:09 | hmm
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| 17:10 | <alkisg> We're missing stuff from your case, so you need to explain us in order for us to imagine what you want to do
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| 17:10 | How are you creating your home dirs?
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| 17:10 | <roasted> the user accounts from AD auto create them upon login
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| 17:10 | this setup was working for the last year, but all of the sudden users without a profile cannot log in as it won't create a home dir for them
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| 17:10 | <alkisg> Which software does that?
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| 17:10 | Likewise open?
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| 17:10 | <roasted> likewise
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| 17:11 | yes
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| 17:11 | <alkisg> OK, isn't there a likewise-open irc channel? I think there was one...
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| 17:12 | <roasted> I suppose. I didn't think. I'll look
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| 17:12 | likewise and likewise-open are empty.hmm
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| 18:11 | <mgariepy> stgraber, bts2012, simpoir will probablby come ;)
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| 18:12 | <stgraber> mgariepy: nice
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| 22:09 | <ltspuser_10> Hi! I have a question about compiz..
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| 22:10 | What is the current status of using compiz on client with ubuntu 12.04?
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| 22:11 | <alkisg> ...broken, unless you're using fat clients :)
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| 22:11 | <ltspuser_10> A few years ago, think it was Ubuntu 9.04 this worked like a charm. Now connecting through xdmcp compiz "works", but gives an awful flicker and is unsuable.
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| 22:11 | no workarounds or magic that ldm will do that lightdm wont? ;)
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| 22:13 | <alkisg> The problem is compiz afaik, not the clients
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| 22:13 | <ltspuser_10> what a pity. there used to bo so many cool things possible.. now they start breaking and abandoning them one by one.. xrandr isn't fully working anymore, too.. very frustrating
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| 22:13 | <alkisg> xrandr? why?
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| 22:14 | <ltspuser_10> sorry for not putting it exactly.. currently this new screen edge setting in xserver does not allow enlargung the screen over physical resolution..
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| 22:15 | that "bug" has been around for quite a few months now..
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| 22:15 | was using that on my netbook, hmm..
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| 22:15 | the mouse stays confined to the original resolution, you see?
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| 22:17 | <alkisg> Which command are you trying to increase the virtual screen size?
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| 22:18 | <ltspuser_10> xrandr --fb 1280x1024 --output LVDS1 --auto --panning 1280x1024
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| 22:18 | it works, but the mouse wont move outside of the physical resolution (here 1024x600)
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| 22:19 | <alkisg> So it's not xrandr that's broken, but the mouse movement?
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| 22:19 | <ltspuser_10> well, yes, sorry ;) ...
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| 22:20 | <alkisg> Well, that's minor... here we can't even type in our language (greek) with the default installation since 12.04... :(
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| 22:20 | (ubuntu)
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| 22:20 | <ltspuser_10> it is supposed to be something in the xserver.. they tried to fix someting else, which was supposedly hard from the developer perspective, but I never realized there was a "bug" in the first place as a user ;)
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| 22:21 | <alkisg> There's a "track" parameter in xrandr's panning, what does that do?
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| 22:22 | <ltspuser_10> hmm, the world has become too fast ..no time for keeping old thnigs working anymore ;)
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| 22:23 | <alkisg> If at least new things were working... :D
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| 22:23 | <ltspuser_10> yeah "track" is for the mouse area, however it does not do anything
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| 22:23 | and it defalts to panning area given..
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| 22:23 | <alkisg> Maybe reporting a bug in xrandr would be a good start
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| 22:24 | <ltspuser_10> well, it is supposed to be in the xserver itself simply ignoring this because of something else which was more urgent to get fixed..
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| 22:25 | and it is classified as a niche feature that "normal users" supposedly dont need ;)
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| 22:25 | so nobody is trying to get ir fixed again ;)
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| 22:25 | <alkisg> ltspuser_10: google helped: https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=118999
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| 22:26 | So using --scale as well can work around the problem
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| 22:26 | (if you don't want to revert the commit that broke it)
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| 22:26 | <ltspuser_10> Well, enough complaining ;) So compit and remote X definitely wont work, not even with with ltsp/ldm or something else, no use in trying right now?
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| 22:26 | <alkisg> We don't know why it doesn't work
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| 22:26 | So, trying always helps, even if it's to pinpoint the bug
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| 22:28 | <ltspuser_10> wise answer, thanks! ;)
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| 22:28 | dont know if that thread on xrandr really helps..
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| 22:29 | <alkisg> It points to the upstream bug report and it mentions a workaround with --scale
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| 22:29 | <ltspuser_10> of course scaling it down works, since then I am not leaving the original boundary anymoree.
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| 22:29 | <alkisg> Anyways, late here, 'night all...
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| 22:29 | <ltspuser_10> night ;)
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