IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.libera.chat (webchat)
Channel log from 1 March 2012 (all times are UTC)
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| 08:41 | <asmok> highvoltage: I filed a bug about LTSP-Cluster installation: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ltsp-cluster/+bug/943841
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| 13:33 | * [GuS] Morning! | |
| 13:38 | <highvoltage> morning
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| 13:38 | <[GuS]> =)
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| 13:39 | <Llama_be> morning :)
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| 16:04 | <LuizAngioletti> Hwody!
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| 16:11 | <Hyperbyte> Hi!
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| 16:19 | <LuizAngioletti> How are you today, Hyperbyte?
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| 16:41 | <andyGraybeals> hi Hyperbyte
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| 18:03 | <LuizAngioletti> Hey! =D
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| 18:03 | I've a question. When I try to mount a USB stick at the thinclient, I get a permission error: "Unable to mount -- Unauthorized"
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| 18:06 | <andyGraybeals> are you in the fuse group?
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| 18:06 | <LuizAngioletti> I'm using both, client and server, as VM at Vbox.... andyGraybeals: I'll check
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| 18:07 | <andyGraybeals> how are you mounting a usb stick to a virtual client?
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| 18:07 | <LuizAngioletti> andyGraybeals: Now I am. And it still doesn't work after re login
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| 18:08 | <LuizAngioletti> I'm not. I'm just telling the VM to use the usb stick.
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| 18:08 | It mounts by itself.
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| 18:08 | <andyGraybeals> aaah hmm
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| 18:08 | yea, i have no idea
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| 18:08 | <LuizAngioletti> -- rather makes it available automatically, as it complains on mounting it.
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| 18:09 | <andyGraybeals> yea, i'm not a big help to this channel.
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| 18:09 | i'm kind of random filler
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| 18:09 | <LuizAngioletti> lol. =P
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| 18:09 | <andyGraybeals> so be patient and hopefully someone can help
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| 18:09 | <LuizAngioletti> andyGraybeals: maybe you can help now.
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| 18:10 | When I access the usb stick through the server machine, it is available to the client
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| 18:10 | *it becomes aval...
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| 18:10 | So.. If I mount it on the server, the client sees it.
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| 18:11 | <andyGraybeals> Hyperbyte, get over here.
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| 18:11 | <LuizAngioletti> =)
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| 18:11 | The Oracle.
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| 18:11 | <andyGraybeals> i bet your prob is simple,, but i can't say -- i'm sure someone here can figure it out in two seconds.
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| 18:12 | we'll have to wait for htem to come to.
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| 18:12 | i shouldn't have said anything in the first place, as it is false hope
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| 18:12 | <LuizAngioletti> I'm cracking open here, andyGraybeals. Don't worry about it.
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| 18:12 | <andyGraybeals> ah, if Hyperbyte is the oracle.. ... then god himself just showed up :)
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| 18:12 | <zevlag> I'm new to LTSP, I'm using Ubuntu, I want to use Fat clients, and I am not sure how to build a minimal chroot, I don't want things like firefox, or openoffice
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| 18:12 | <LuizAngioletti> It's nice to get a fast reply.
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| 18:13 | <andyGraybeals> alkisGOD
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| 18:13 | * andyGraybeals bows | |
| 18:13 | * LuizAngioletti bows. | |
| 18:13 | <LuizAngioletti> zevlag: Have you checked this: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/LTSPQuickInstall
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| 18:14 | ?
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| 18:14 | <andyGraybeals> zevlag, have you read the fatclient article fromthe same url LuizAngioletti mentioned?
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| 18:14 | it walks you through it, even i could manage.
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| 18:14 | <zevlag> LuizAngioletti, I've dont that, I have it working, with the ubuntu-desktop image
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| 18:15 | <LuizAngioletti> zevlag: Try the one andyGraybeals told us.
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| 18:15 | <zevlag> but that desktop meta-package has way more stuff than I want
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| 18:15 | <andyGraybeals> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/FatClients <---
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| 18:15 | <LuizAngioletti> zevlag: You could just uninstall them once you've chrooted.
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| 18:16 | zevlag: And you can always try to build the image from scratch.
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| 18:16 | =P
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| 18:16 | <zevlag> LuizAngioletti, yes, I could, but I think what I 'm looknig for
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| 18:16 | what packages do I need to build the image from scrath
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| 18:16 | what is the 'minimal' ltsp?
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| 18:16 | chroot
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| 18:16 | <andyGraybeals> zevlag, check out that url i threw up there.. https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/FatClients
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| 18:17 | zevlag, is this not what you are looking for?
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| 18:17 | <alkisg> zevlag: if you weren't using LTSP but regular PCs, what would you install?
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| 18:17 | <zevlag> alkisg, the only package I want these to run is VirtualBox actually
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| 18:17 | * LuizAngioletti bows again. God spoke. | |
| 18:18 | <alkisg> Haha
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| 18:18 | zevlag: then why do you need fat clients?
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| 18:18 | Just create a thin ltsp chroot, install virtualbox, and create a vbox screen script
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| 18:18 | <zevlag> I want all the procesing done locally
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| 18:18 | <alkisg> Yup
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| 18:18 | E.g. the current "rdesktop" screen script is similar in concept
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| 18:19 | rdesktop runs locally, no DE, no users, and just connects to a windows server
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| 18:19 | You'd have vbox run locally, and open some .vdi from the server
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| 18:19 | <zevlag> yep
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| 18:19 | that's what I want
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| 18:20 | <alkisg> That would give you minimal RAM + boot time. Bad side = you have to write that screen script, noone yet has
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| 18:20 | (lots of people planning to, but I don't think anyone has started it)
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| 18:20 | You can even use a single vbox image for all clients
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| 18:20 | <LuizAngioletti> alkisg: maybe you can help me. I've both server and client in a VM (vbox). I enabled a usb stick on the client and was unable to mount it. VBox says I'm unable to connect the device, as it is in use by the server machine. Is there any workaround this?
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| 18:21 | <andyGraybeals> zevlag, hey man, out of curiosity, what would you be doing .. like.. is htis for developers at your office?
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| 18:21 | zevlag, sounds pretty ccool to run a VM in a chroot!
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| 18:21 | <alkisg> LuizAngioletti: for that you'd need to ask in #vbox, but why do you insist on doing it?
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| 18:21 | It would work fine with a real client...
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| 18:21 | <LuizAngioletti> alkisg: I don't have one. =D
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| 18:21 | <zevlag> Andy, it's actually for all our customer service reps, we need windows, but want it to be hardware blind, so that we can push out a common drive image to all of them
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| 18:21 | <alkisg> LuizAngioletti: ok, and your task is to test, or to actually do something with that stick?
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| 18:22 | <LuizAngioletti> alkisg: test it
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| 18:22 | You'll just tell me it worksw
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| 18:22 | ?
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| 18:22 | =P
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| 18:22 | <alkisg> OK, well, you're inserting a problem which wouldn't be there on real hardware
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| 18:22 | <LuizAngioletti> alkisg: thought it would be something like it. =) Thx, though.
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| 18:23 | <andyGraybeals> zevlag, this sounds like lots of fun :) i hope you get it working like you want. it's very clever procedure :)
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| 18:23 | <alkisg> LuizAngioletti: but ask in #vbox, it's probably as simple as unmounting it from the server
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| 18:24 | <LuizAngioletti> And so you were right.
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| 18:24 | It worked already.
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| 18:24 | <andyGraybeals> it mounted?
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| 18:24 | <zevlag> andyGraybeals, The niftyness of it comes in that we are sitting on a snapshottable file system and can rollback a broken imnage in seconds
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| 18:24 | <andyGraybeals> on the client?
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| 18:24 | <LuizAngioletti> Yep.
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| 18:24 | andyGraybeals: yep.
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| 18:25 | <andyGraybeals> zevlag, thats a nice feature
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| 18:25 | LuizAngioletti, yay! well.. i helped maybe a little.. caues if you weren't already in the fuse group ;P
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| 18:25 | <zevlag> andyGraybeals, I've got it scripted to auth against AD, mount a home dir with drive images, and start VirtualBox
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| 18:26 | <LuizAngioletti> andyGraybeals: You did help. I wasn't. =)
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| 18:26 | <alkisg> In recent ubuntu versions the fuse group isn't required :)
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| 18:26 | <andyGraybeals> zevlag, that is a nice touch. i'm trying to imagine how i could make use of this same setup or how i could potentially take advantag of it.. it will simmer all night long now.
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| 18:26 | alkisg, blasephemy!!! :P
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| 18:26 | <LuizAngioletti> andyGraybeals: ... and so we learn a bit more from alkisg ... =)
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| 18:26 | <alkisg> Hehe sorry for the spoil :D
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| 18:27 | <andyGraybeals> 8.04 .. it was right? and 10.04 ?? yes?
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| 18:27 | my first ltsp was in 8.04
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| 18:27 | * LuizAngioletti uses 10.04 | |
| 18:27 | <alkisg> In 8.04 yes, in 10.04 nope
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| 18:27 | <andyGraybeals> alkisg, very effing interesting.
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| 18:27 | learn someting every day.
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| 18:28 | * LuizAngioletti loves the possibility of speaking about himself in the third person =P | |
| 18:28 | <alkisg> Caesar did that, didn't he? :P
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| 18:29 | <LuizAngioletti> maybe I'm destined to rule the known world. =S
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| 18:29 | <zevlag> andyGraybeals, This way, any user can logon anywhere, not worry about windows "roaming profiles" and have their workstation, all data stored on a "D:" image, so we can push a new sysimage at any time or roll back a broken one
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| 18:30 | <andyGraybeals> zevlag, wow, the breadth of it :)
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| 18:30 | this is great.
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| 18:31 | i've done it the kvm way... and rdesktop .. this is a different approach
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| 18:31 | <zevlag> Since I want virtual box to use the RAM and CPU of the PC, I need Fat, and only need VirtualBox to run, I'm trying to trim down my chroot, and looking for the most maintainable method of doing so (simplicity of future upgrades)
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| 18:31 | <LuizAngioletti> I was talking to someone yesterday about some articles on ltsp... and this someone told me to google for it. Although simple as it was, I didn't think of that -- I thought first of looking into my University database... -- So this is a thank you very much to that unknown good person.
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| 18:32 | <andyGraybeals> zevlag, did you have a read about the url i posted? it's very straight forward.
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| 18:32 | https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/FatClients
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| 18:32 | <alkisg> zevlag: I've been thinking about this for months, and I even took an afternoon to start the screen script. Use a thin chroot, not a fat one, with a "virtualbox" screen script.
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| 18:32 | <zevlag> I guess I don't understand how a screen script causes virtualbox to use the client resources
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| 18:32 | <alkisg> All screen scripts run locally
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| 18:33 | E.g. ldm (the login manager), xterm, rdesktop, shell etc
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| 18:33 | <zevlag> ah, I learn more
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| 18:33 | <alkisg> Or the kiosk screen script, which runs firefox locally without DE
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| 18:33 | <andyGraybeals> how does this run virtualbox on the client? i'm baffled.
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| 18:33 | <alkisg> sudo chroot /opt/ltsp/i386 apt-get install virtualbox,
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| 18:34 | and SCREEN_07=virtualbox /path/to/vdi in lts.conf
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| 18:34 | It's similar to SCREEN_07=kiosk
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| 18:35 | <andyGraybeals> zevlag this is awesome.. i can totally use this.
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| 18:35 | you are a hero.
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| 18:36 | every time i come here, i expierence enlightenment on many levels.
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| 18:36 | <zevlag> :)
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| 18:37 | <andyGraybeals> alkisg, i still don't understand how the virtualbox runs locally without being inside a fatclient.
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| 18:38 | but i'm okay without an explanation.. it might be hard to connect my dots.
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| 18:39 | <alkisg> andyGraybeals: do you understand the SCREEN_07=rdesktop concept?
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| 18:39 | Rdesktop is installed in the chroot, and that line in lts.conf executes that instead of the login manager
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| 18:40 | <andyGraybeals> alkisg, i thought i did.. like... if i run a kvm on my kvm server.. SCREEN_07 will rdesktop to that kvm box
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| 18:40 | <alkisg> Right. So, rdesktop runs locally on the client, not on your ltsp server.
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| 18:40 | <andyGraybeals> alkisg, yes, i totally thought i understood ... and i still tihnk i do.
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| 18:40 | rdesktop as a remote client.
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| 18:40 | yes,.. but the virtual machine is still running on the serve.r
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| 18:40 | <alkisg> In the same sense, SCREEN_07=virtualbox would run virtualbox locally without needing LDM or gnome first
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| 18:41 | <andyGraybeals> aah wait.
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| 18:41 | aaah. okay.
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| 18:41 | i'm sorry i iddn't understand that part.
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| 18:41 | i do now though.
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| 18:41 | total wow.
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| 18:42 | <andyGraybeals> yes, this could be incredibly helpful to my situation.
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| 18:43 | thank you alkisg saying that over agian..i guess i didn't follow that 'virtualbox pathname' was the command for the first time you said it.
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| 18:52 | <LuizAngioletti> andyGraybeals: andyGraybeal, are you the same person? =P
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| 18:52 | <andyGraybeals> yes
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| 18:52 | <andyGraybeals> \sorry i'm doubled.. i'm stil running on a client at work
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| 18:52 | but this is me at hoome
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| 18:52 | <LuizAngioletti> =)
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| 18:53 | <andyGraybeals> what are you working on LuizAngioletti, overall ?
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| 18:53 | er.. i mean aside from known world domination.
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| 18:54 | i meant, more technically.. with ltsp :)
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| 18:55 | <LuizAngioletti> andyGraybeals: The world is my goal. But I'm starting with the LTSP. =)
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| 18:55 | <andyGraybeals> are you planning on using it at work? or for what purpose? (i'm curious, not being condescending or anything)
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| 18:56 | i think it's cool that you are learning about it - it's helped me a lot at work.
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| 18:56 | <LuizAngioletti> I recently got into a job which works with LTSP, and the folks here where thinking about abandoning the technology because they thought it unusable: too slow, not that much cheapper than a regular machine and stand alone setup.
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| 18:56 | <andyGraybeals> hahah i disagree. but i don't know your group.
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| 18:57 | <LuizAngioletti> I know them, and I also disagree.
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| 18:57 | <andyGraybeals> maybe they have many resources.... i have nearly no resources.. and ltsp is awesome.
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| 18:58 | <LuizAngioletti> We have almost none too. I'm in Brazil, and the people I work with are state people. I work at a department in a state university
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| 18:58 | Because of bad policies here, all the engineous minds that broght up the project (with the LTSP as main flag) left and no one now (almost ten years later) has any idea about anything.
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| 18:59 | <andyGraybeals> so they want to support actual machines.. with harddrives that fail every chance they can? the want to push updates to these harddrives... that takes many resources!!
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| 18:59 | it's quicker to update a chroot, image it...and go!
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| 19:00 | maybe i don't know though.
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| 19:00 | <LuizAngioletti> andyGraybeals: I completely agree. The thing here is two fold: 1) users have GNU/Linux resistance; 2) my co-workers think LTSP is too danm slow. I'm trying to proove them wrong.
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| 19:00 | <alkisg> LuizAngioletti: client specs? RAM/CPU?
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| 19:00 | ..and network?
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| 19:00 | <andyGraybeals> do they prefer windows? and do you have a budget for the high microsoft prices?
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| 19:01 | <LuizAngioletti> alkisg: It varies wildly. I have no idea of any specific ones... We have labs with older recicled machines and others with new thinclients.
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| 19:01 | andyGraybeals: They do, and we don't have the money.
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| 19:02 | <alkisg> Clients with 64 to 256 RAM make fine LTSP clients, and cannot run even Windows XP
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| 19:02 | Clients with 512 MB RAM run better with XP than with LTSP.
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| 19:02 | Clients with >= 1 Gb RAM make fine fat clients so run fine with LTPS.
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| 19:02 | <LuizAngioletti> andyGraybeals: You know.. it is a huge university, with a multitude of necessities (software-wise)... so at some faculties they need Matlab too much, and therefore Windows.
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| 19:03 | <andyGraybeals> if you could pull it off.. you could do what zevlag is talkign about for those machines.
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| 19:04 | and not have to deal with harddrives in the client boxes... just waitign to fail.
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| 19:04 | <LuizAngioletti> but the aim here is to set up computer labs for the most non-tech faculties. And I think they can work with GNU/Linux, although they resist a lot.
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| 19:04 | andyGraybeals: I didn't quite get what he's doing.
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| 19:04 | <andyGraybeals> ah well for your windows machines... he's running ltsp and pushing out a virtual machine to each client that is running windows.
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| 19:05 | <LuizAngioletti> alkisg: I really thing that our greatest bottleneck here is network hardware. I don't trust the switches to be that good.
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| 19:05 | <andyGraybeals> inside your virtual machine you could have matlab running.. but you knwo.. i don't know if it is practical.. you'd have to expeiremnt
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| 19:05 | <LuizAngioletti> alkisg: Also.. what about streamming? What are the conditions for simultaneous stream (from youtube, for instance) in all 20 clients?
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| 19:06 | <alkisg> LuizAngioletti: one single client with fullscreen youtube HD video needs more than 1 gbps as thin, and as little as 1 mbps as fat
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| 19:07 | <LuizAngioletti> alkisg: Fat clients are those who have a HD, right?
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| 19:07 | <alkisg> No
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| 19:08 | It's just a special option to ltsp-build-client
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| 19:08 | !fatclients
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| 19:08 | <ltsp`> alkisg: fatclients: You may find some info about the Ubuntu/LTSP implementation of fat clients at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/FatClients
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| 19:10 | <andyGraybeals> that's the url of the hour!
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| 19:10 | <LuizAngioletti> alkisg: just the first paragraph is helpful. I'll read it thoroughly. Thanks.
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| 19:11 | andyGraybeals: Did you see what he did there? There is a bot shortcut for the url.
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| 19:11 | <andyGraybeals> yes, hush i never remember!
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| 19:11 | it's always !facepalm
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| 19:15 | <LuizAngioletti> =P
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| 19:15 | <andyGraybeals> :)
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| 19:17 | <LuizAngioletti> What about you andyGraybeals... what are you up to?
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| 19:20 | <andyGraybeals> literally right now, i'm getting alfesco 4.0d to install and integrated into my auth directory.... and writing down each step for the zentyal trak wiki... who knows if i will accomplish this feat, but i will at least merely attempt.
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| 19:21 | and i'm stalling.. by being on irc.
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| 19:21 | not really, i like to keep a presence on irc, in this channel when i'm doing stuff.
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| 19:22 | but with ltsp in general.. i run it at my office! i am a co-owner of a restaurant.
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| 19:23 | <LuizAngioletti> and the stations run ltsp
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| 19:23 | <andyGraybeals> we have about 10 client machines... i run in thin client mode at the moment, soon to be in fatclient mode when some issues get resolved.
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| 19:23 | <LuizAngioletti> When dealing with fat clients, the costs are not that diminished, right?
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| 19:23 | <andyGraybeals> now that zevlag just talked me throw his implementation... i can do the same thing now for our point-of-sale system.
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| 19:24 | <andyGraybeals> LuizAngioletti, fat client is exactly as thin client as far as cost of labor. the clients technically will have more memory and a decent processor in them than the their thin client cousins... but this is not *that* costly.
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| 19:24 | LuizAngioletti, maybe i don't understand the question though.
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| 19:25 | <LuizAngioletti> that was it.
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| 19:25 | <andyGraybeals> the costs of labor skyrocket running around replacing harddrives and maintaining remote images stored on those machines.
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| 19:26 | not to mention the time the end user is inconvienced.. but is still on the timeclock.
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| 19:29 | <LuizAngioletti> andyGraybeals: I'm sorry to ask but... why would you have 10 computers at a restaurant?
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| 19:34 | <andyGraybeals> LuizAngioletti, i ask myself that also... one is specifically for payroll, the others are workstation that we use to coordinate the daily operations of the business... not only are we a restaurant, but we run a manufacturing division as well.
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| 19:34 | <LuizAngioletti> ok.
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| 19:35 | Can I keep asking?
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| 19:35 | <andyGraybeals> for sure man, i don't mind
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| 19:35 | <LuizAngioletti> what do you manufacture?
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| 19:37 | <andyGraybeals> oh food goods.. i dunno.. stuff like.. pickles, salsas, roasted tomatoes, roasted tomatillos, roasted squash, we process and brine jalepenos, hungarian wax chiles, .. we process then roast then brine poblano and anehiem chilies. we package and then freeze other hotter chiles that we use in less quantity..like habeneros..and even hotter chiles that aren't coming to mind..
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| 19:37 | plus we package and freeze a bunch of fruit
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| 19:37 | sometimes we process it for wholesale use and sometimes for retail
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| 19:39 | we have approx 80 employees and have been operating for approx 27 yrs.
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| 19:39 | <LuizAngioletti> Wow! =D
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| 19:39 | 80 employees... I take back the 10 pcs question, and put it like this: ONLY 10?
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| 19:39 | =P
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| 19:39 | <andyGraybeals> we have to keep our presence on the internet constantly. .because we are also a nightclub and have social events.. such as art openings, concerts, dj's.. etc.
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| 19:40 | computers are a large part of our operation.. because it's basiclaly pushing a bunch of information.. we have track inventory and costs...
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| 19:41 | <LuizAngioletti> Man... I'm impressed. Is there anything you DON'T do at your work?
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| 19:41 | =)
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| 19:41 | <andyGraybeals> we would like to have the computers assume an even larger role in our operation.. .like for instance.. we have a warehouse that is offsite..and have recently set it up the walk-in refridgeration units with ethernet enabled thermometers.
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| 19:42 | this is a test we wil do for a few years.. to see if it's worth it to equip the rest of our walk-ins and other important refridgeration units.
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| 19:42 | <LuizAngioletti> everything runs on *nix?
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| 19:42 | <andyGraybeals> sadly i have to say no.
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| 19:43 | <LuizAngioletti> =/
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| 19:43 | <andyGraybeals> but... our firewall is bsd, the user space system is linux... sadly our payroll and point-of-sale is still on windows.
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| 19:43 | so the actual guts of our operation... is windows.
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| 19:43 | i'm ashamed.
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| 19:44 | <LuizAngioletti> in Brazil we have a big issue with government software... most of it only runs on windows.
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| 19:44 | <andyGraybeals> but i am actively pursuing avenues to replacing both systems!
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| 19:44 | <LuizAngioletti> taxes and stuff.
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| 19:44 | <andyGraybeals> oh also.. i have to run a kvm to get to one of our suppliers websites.. becaues they still use activex !!!!!! (like ie6!!!!)
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| 19:45 | <LuizAngioletti> f***
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| 19:45 | =/
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| 19:45 | <andyGraybeals> yea, the restaurant doesn't close... we operate from 8am in the morning till 2:30am the next morning.. and we have a night shift of bakers.
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| 19:46 | <LuizAngioletti> where do you live? Belgium?
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| 19:46 | <andyGraybeals> so the cooks all get there atleast 7AM
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| 19:46 | i live in southeastern ohio, in the states. why did you ask belgium?
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| 19:46 | <LuizAngioletti> server : hitchcock.freenode.net [Sofia, BG, EU]
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| 19:46 | <andyGraybeals> oh .. random xchat... and laziness.
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| 19:47 | <LuizAngioletti> =)
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| 19:47 | <andyGraybeals> my apologies.
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| 19:47 | <LuizAngioletti> I don't know what mine would return, so...
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| 19:48 | <andyGraybeals> so basically operations is constant... 24x7 at our restaurant; and seasonally we process food at a remote location.
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| 19:48 | <alkisg> vagrantc: hi, we can either publish epoptes today, or a bit better version tomorrow. Would it make any difference to you, i.e. on when you could have a look and upload it?
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| 19:48 | <andyGraybeals> so when we actually close the place down.... i need to work really hard to do maintenance because it's a small window .. .then we start back up again.
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| 19:50 | <LuizAngioletti> andyGraybeals.. I have to go now. =D
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| 19:50 | andyGraybeals: nice talking to you. Hope I'll be able to help you on LTSP in some time.
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| 19:50 | <vagrantc> alkisg: i could actually put some time into it tomorrow
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| 19:50 | <alkisg> vagrantc: perfect, thank you
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| 19:51 | <LuizAngioletti> andyGraybeals: good luck with the business. =)
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| 19:51 | <vagrantc> planning on spending most of the day working on ltsp and related projects
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| 19:51 | <LuizAngioletti> alkisg: thx for the tips.
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| 19:51 | See you guys.
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| 19:51 | <alkisg> np, good luck
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