IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.libera.chat (webchat)

Channel log from 18 November 2008 (all times are UTC)

00:12	<twb> Yeah, the text-via-HTML convertors are horrible
00:13	I generally prefer to just strip out all the tags
00:28	<sbalneav> yawn, night all
00:45	<kaos01_> how can you tell ldm in ltsp5 which server to connect to ?
00:45	<Ryan52> kaos01_: LDM_SERVER=blah
00:45	if you want to give choices, then do a space separated list, with the first being the default.
00:46	and that goes in lts.conf
00:47	<kaos01_> cool thanks
01:01	yay, it worked :)
01:01	i think the problem was my known_hosts wasnt set up
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02:35	<frin-> hello, I have problems with setxkbmap on archlinux using ltsp 4.2, it keeps telling me "Error loading new keyboard description", from what I tell I need to upgrade xorg in ltsp folder to 7.4, what do I need to do? (ltsp 5 is not an option for me)
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02:41	<johnny> frin-, that is probably impossible
02:41	at least for us
02:41	you could perhaps do it manually
02:41	<frin-> yes, wondering how to do it manually, if there's some tutorial
02:41	<johnny> but nothing we can really help with.. as we use all packaged verisons with our distros
02:42	not from us
02:42	as that would require a change throughout the entire system due to new dependencies and whatnot
02:43	perhaps there is another way around that doesn't involve upgrading xorg
02:43	altho i never used setxkbmap.. so i have no idea
02:44	frin-, as far as i can tell. your /opt/ltsp folder is stuck in time
02:44	why can't you upgrade to ltsp 5?
02:45	<frin-> it boots too slow
02:45	<johnny> boots? really?
02:46	i know you can increase the speed of X itself with LDM_DIRECTX=Y
02:46	to drop the encrypted ssh
02:46	which makes it act just like ltsp 4 did in that regard
02:46	<frin-> some machines needed 5 minutes to boot, whereas with 4.2 only 30 seconds
02:47	<johnny> by boot, you mean before login?
02:47	<frin-> yes
02:47	<johnny> ouch
02:47	<frin-> old PCs
02:47	<johnny> well.. perhpas try to come back in 6 hours or so
02:47	more people will be about then
02:48	<frin-> k thanks
02:48	<johnny> maybe then can help you make xkbmap do the right thing..
02:52	<frin-> according to this, at least xorg 7.1 is possible, however manually: http://www.mail-archive.com/ltsp-discuss@lists.sourceforge.net/msg33683.html
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04:37	<Guest13246> Hi
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04:38	<Guest13246> I'm trying to convince my responsables to install an LTSP Server in free-access rooms
04:38	One question still blocking : use of bandwidth
04:39	80 clients on a 100M network, what do you think about ?
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04:41	<Guest13246> They heard about NX, that seems to be needing less bandwidth... is that true ?
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04:49	<Guest13246> #list
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07:30	<jammcq> good morning #ltsp
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07:34	<vvinet> good morning jammcq
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07:34	<jammcq> hello vvinet
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08:36	<alkisg> Good morning everyone. What's the recommented way to install Intrepid & LTSP without dhcp server? With the alternate cd + remove dhcp server after default installation, or with the dvd + install ltsp-server?
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08:43	<sbalneav> Morning all
08:44	<Gadi> alkisg: the former should configure all the other services for you. The latter would require more configuring. I would vote the former
08:44	!s
08:44	<ltspbot> Gadi: "s" is Scotty!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
08:44	<ogra> Gadi, which services ?
08:44	!s
08:44	<ltspbot> ogra: "s" is Scotty!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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08:44	<sbalneav> Morning all
08:45	<ogra> both ways are the same, really
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08:45	<sbalneav> Morning all
08:45	<Gadi> ogra: I thought only -standalone configures tftp, et al
08:45	* ogra wonders if sbalneav is in bot mode :)
08:45	<ogra> Gadi, nope
08:45	<sbalneav> No, I re-attached to my screen session, and I could type, but it wasn't echoing to me in the channel
08:46	<ogra> -standalone's only extra is the dhpd.conf and the dep
08:46	<Gadi> oh
08:46	<sbalneav> were you guys seeing me say "hello" several times?
08:46	<ogra> three times, yes :)
08:46	<sbalneav> Wierd
08:46	<alkisg> Thank you guys
08:46	<sbalneav> I wasn't seeing it in irssi
08:46	anyway, here now.
08:46	<nubae> maybe its just a really good morning :-)
08:47	<sbalneav> ogra, Gadi, have a look at the docs
08:47	<ogra> three times better then others :)
08:47	<sbalneav> Did a lot of work last night.
08:47	* ogra is hogges by ARM work ... but will look if he has time
08:47	<ogra> *hogged
08:52	<jammcq> Scotty !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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08:54	<sbalneav> Hey jammcq
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09:11	<stgraber> ogra: did you look at -meeting ? Can you answer the mail for the MOTU council ?
09:11	<ogra> woops, yes
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09:18	<ogra> sent
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09:28	<ninkendo> does anyone have a successful setup of using nxagent/nxproxy/whatever to connect to the server instead of straight X11?
09:28	I'm starting to really wish I had NX's speed gains right now
09:32	<sbalneav> Straight X11 will be fast, if your network's fast.
09:32	<stgraber> ogra: thanks
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09:32	<ninkendo> sbalneav: the network's fast, but certain programs just suck over X11 compared to NX
09:32	matlab R2007b in particular
09:33	<Gadi> ninkendo: localapp?
09:33	<sbalneav> Do you have LDM_DIRECTX turned on?
09:33	<ninkendo> I don't know what's wrong with their drawing code, but just clicking on menus, for instance, is incredibly slow
09:33	yeah, LDM_DIRECTX is on and confirmed to work
09:33	network's all gigabit
09:34	most program's are ok, and you wouldn't notice a difference, but matlab in particular is slow as hell, and using it as a local app is not an option
09:34	and we have some CAD programs that would be nice to not use networked OpenGL... mostly because the video cards on the thin clients are buggy as hell and they crash when you try an open a model
09:35	but seem to work just fine in NX
09:36	<Gadi> ninkendo: install nxclient in the chroot, copy the rdesktop screen script, and s/rdesktop/nxclient/ - that would be the starting point
09:36	I had a whole nxwrapper script back in LTSP4 days
09:37	but, not sure how much is reusable
09:37	<ogra> Gadi, just port it and push it upstream
09:37	though you probably might want to rebase on x2go
09:37	<Gadi> ogra: thx
09:37	x2go?
09:37	<ogra> its way saner than NX
09:38	it uses nxlibs but around that it produces a fully free server and client app ... using the same compression advantages but more free apps
09:39	sadly them using nxlibs prevents the packages from entering any distros
09:39	same issues as NX itself has
09:41	<ninkendo> ogra: is the client/server software as retarded as NX's?
09:41	<ogra> i think its far advanced
09:41	but i have only seen it running once yet
09:41	<loather> software patents are stupid and counterproductive.
09:41	<ninkendo> NX is way to hairy on the server side IMO... /usr/NX, creating a separate, special NX user with its own home directory, stupid bash scripts around everything
09:41	<ogra> loather, ?
09:41	<loather> even copyright goes too far sometimes :(
09:42	ogra: re: NX and other "poorly"-licensed software
09:42	<ogra> loather, freenx is neither patented nor nonfree ... its just that the nxlibs re-introduce a full (outdated) copy of xlibs
09:42	that makes it unmaintainablein any distro
09:43	<loather> oh
09:43	yeah. that's no good
09:43	<ninkendo> I'm waiting for the day the NX code just gets pushed into X11 proper and maintained as part of x.org, and turned into the default X11 protocol
09:43	<ogra> and nomachine despite promising to rebase on X upstream since about four years now doent do a thing about it
09:44	ninkendo, that day wont come as long as nomachine can make money with the current situation
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09:44	<loather> exactly
09:44	it's a money issue. if they can still get money from people without doing more work they're not going to do the work
09:44	no matter how right it would be to do it
09:46	but yeah, i could see NX becoming a more versatile piece of software if it were merged into X proper
09:47	NX is fast.
09:47	much better than straight Xlib connections and way, way lighter
09:47	<sbalneav> sigh
09:47	<ninkendo> aren't the libraries GPL'd?
09:48	can't the xorg developers just take the code and put it in xorg?
09:48	<laga> is the GPL compatible with the X11 license?
09:48	<Gadi> to be fair, companies do have limited resources, and if it is OSS, the community can port it to xlibs just as easily
09:48	<sbalneav> nx is not "lighter" than straight X. It's lighter on network bandwidth, NOT cpu, it's MUCH heavier on cpu
09:51	Well just got off the phone with the passport office, looks like they won't expidite my passport, so I'll just have to join you all in Mountainview "remotely"
09:51	Bummer
09:52	<loather> lighter on network, yes
09:52	sbalneav: :(
09:52	when's the mountain view thing?
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09:53	<sbalneav> Sometime early december, and my passport expires december 1st
09:54	I went down to the passport office to see if I could apply for an expidited renewal, but since it's just for personal/pleasure reasons, they're declining.
09:55	Would have been nice, but practically, finding the time would have been a streach anyway.
09:56	* sbalneav shrugs.
09:56	<loather> yea, beginning of Dec. is bad for me as well
09:56	<sbalneav> Next time.
09:56	<loather> already taking some time off to do family stuff
09:56	<sbalneav> I'll just party harder next June in Brazil :)
09:56	<loather> yup. :\
09:56	brazil? :)
09:57	hmm, i wonder if i can get the company to bankroll that. It's a "conference," right? :)
09:58	<sbalneav> It's LTSP's 10th anniversary. We're having a hackfest/attending FISL 10.0 in Brazil
09:58	* warren sighs
09:58	<warren> I really doubt I will be able to get any budget for that.
10:01	<ogra> warren, so time to start saving some money for it
10:07	<loather> yeah, i'm gonna see if i can get the company to send me down
10:07	<warren> I'll try
10:07	<loather> i have a feeling i know the answer before asking
10:07	<warren> ogra: I already have travel in China and Japan scheduled around that time, so schedule might be an issue
10:07	<loather> but asking is really the only way to know for sure :)
10:09	<warren> They gave me $1,500 for the entire year of 2008, and our budgets are getting cut even more
10:10	* ogra will come on his own dime if schedule doesnt clash
10:10	<ogra> though i might be able to convince my team boss to send me there for mobile stuff
10:11	<loather> warren: for all of your travel?
10:12	<warren> loather: yes.
10:12	<loather> wow. airfare for china and japan alone will deplete that with a quickness
10:15	<jammcq> sbalneav: so if they can't expidite it, how long will it take?
10:16	<loather> it's kinda stupid that canadians need passports to come into the US and vice versa now
10:16	who's ever heard of a canadian terrorist, eh?
10:17	<stgraber> sbalneav: did you ever see xatomwait segfaulting ?
10:18	[ 146.460582] xatomwait[4422]: segfault at 4 ip b7fd54f1 sp bfebf9c0 error 4 in libX11.so.6.2.0[b7fad000+eb000]
10:20	<sbalneav> stgraber: Hm, no
10:20	<jammcq> turns out scotty's chance of going to UDS are only "mostly" dead
10:20	which is a lot better than ALL dead
10:20	<sbalneav> There's not really a lot going on in xatomwat
10:21	<jammcq> all dead means the only thing left to do is roll him over looking for loose change
10:21	<sbalneav> That segfault's from xlib, any idea what the last line in xatomwait is that it executes?
10:21	jammcq: What am I, a couch? :)
10:22	Well, I AM pretty padded :)
10:23	stgraber: well, the only element I use without checking return value is:
10:24	root = RootWindow(dpy, DefaultScreen(dpy));
10:24	Maybe try adding a if (!root) { fprintf(stderr, "boo"); exit(1); } after it.
10:25	When does the local app script get started? from ldm, or independently? Maybe it's another race condition.
10:26	<stgraber> sbalneav: yeah either a race condition or our xrandr call that make xatomwait fail for an unknown reason
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10:26	<stgraber> sbalneav: IIRC it's the first ldm Sxx script
10:27	<sbalneav> Ah, well, the xinit thing should guarentee X is up by that time.
10:27	<stgraber> well, xatomwait is started after the ldm login so X must be started at this point :)
10:27	<sbalneav> right.
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10:46	<loather> jammcq: the chocolate coating makes it go down easier
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10:58	<alkisg> Hmm... After installing from the Intrepid alternate CD, the CD itself is included as an apt source, so ltsp-build-client --copy-sourceslist uses it. With the default Intrepid DVD setup, ltsp-build-client --copy-sourceslist downloads everything from the Internet... I wonder if that's a bug or it's on purpose.
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11:03	<ogra> only if oyu installed non networked
11:03	which is then expected
11:03	if you install networked, a proper sources.list is generated
11:04	<alkisg> ogra, non networked? I did have network, and sources.list is OK, but the DVD is not included as a source
11:04	It's commented out
11:05	<ogra> well, ltsp-client-builder uses a simple cp in the debian-installer
11:05	where did you use --copy-sourceslist ?
11:05	<warren> Hey, can folks send me e-mail from non-work addresses? Send to warren@togami.com. Testing anti-spam setup.
11:05	<ogra> manually?
11:06	<alkisg> ogra, in the alternate CD, I didn't use anything (just assuming it copied the sources)
11:06	<ogra> it does
11:06	but not with --copy-sourceslist
11:06	<alkisg> ogra, but on the DVD, I had to enable the DVD as a source (and then use --copy-sourceslist --mount-cd etc)
11:06	<ogra> ah
11:07	<alkisg> And these are 2 different end-user-experiences, and I wondered if that's on purpose...
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11:07	<ogra> if you use two different install methids it is indeed expected :)
11:08	<alkisg> Heh... but why wouldn't a DVD be included as an apt source?!
11:08	4 Gb wasted!
11:09	<ogra> it is included ... just not activated if you do a networked install
11:10	<alkisg> ogra, networked install == connected network while installing, right? Hmm... that behavior would be difficult to find out if you didn't tell me!!!
11:10	ogra, thanks!
11:10	<ogra> right
11:11	the behavior should be the same for CD and DVD if you use the d-i bits for ltsp
11:11	* ogra needs to help in the kitchen ... back later
11:11	<alkisg> ogra d-i bits?
11:11	* alkisg googles this... :)
11:11	<Gadi> warren: get my email? ;)
11:12	<warren> yes
11:12	<Gadi> doh
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11:17	<ogra> alkisg, ltsp-client-builder ... the debian-installer bit of ltsp
11:19	<alkisg> ogra, I guess that's what's called automatically if selecting "F4=>install an ltsp server" in the alternate CD, right? And this also exists on the DVD?
11:20	<ogra> it should, not sure
11:20	i havent tested DVDs
11:21	<alkisg> ogra, thanks, I'll do some testing. But the alternate CD + dhcp-server removal seems simpler so far...
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12:15	<elwarreno> lively crowd...
12:17	<cliebow> woohoo!!
12:17	thinking deep thoughts
12:18	<jammcq> cliebow: so, did SWHarbor pretty much settle down since we left?
12:18	<cliebow> oh yeah!
12:18	it was dead when we were there..now it is less than dead
12:27	<elwarreno> when/where is the next ltsp event?
12:27	<cliebow> jammcq was thinking late June in Brazil..
12:28	but we can have our own if you like ;-]
12:28	<elwarreno> ha, well brazil is a bit of a trip...
12:29	* Lns wouldn't mind having one in sunny California ;)
12:29	<cliebow> yeah..i have two jobs to avoid then
12:31	Lns..L.A.?
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12:31	<Lns> cliebow: Sure, that's just 8 hours south of where i am :)
12:32	<elwarreno> i propose happy valley - goose bay
12:32	<Lns> Or San Francisco, that's even closer =) Then I could even take you all on a tour of my 7 school LTSP setups!
12:33	<elwarreno> google it...
12:33	<cliebow> Lns:we should have done so before uds a couple years ago
12:33	<Lns> elwarreno: canada, ay?
12:34	<jammcq> elwarreno: where is happy valley?
12:34	<Lns> cliebow: that would have been cool..as far as the tour though i would have only had 2 LTSP setups 2 years ago
12:34	jammcq: canada
12:35	http://www.happyvalley-goosebay.com/index2.html
12:35	<elwarreno> probably one of the most remote places on the eastern seaboard
12:35	there is a big airbase up there
12:35	and a community
12:36	of about 5000
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12:37	<Lns> elwarreno: then we shall set up a 5000 node LTSP network for the community!
12:37	<elwarreno> sounds like a plan!
12:38	<Lns> hehe
12:40	<elwarreno> jim should be able to get his suburban up there..
12:40	four wheel drive is recommended
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12:56	<Eghie> hello
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12:59	<sbalneav> Hello
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13:00	<Eghie> Hmm I was about to ask a question about OpenAFS, but guess i'm in the wrong channel
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13:06	<sbalneav> That's a network file system, right?
13:06	<Eghie> yes
13:06	with good caching support
13:06	I wanted to look at a combination of thin and fat client
13:07	with the homedirectories setup via OpenAFS
13:07	<sbalneav> Well, you're certainly more than welcome to hack around with LTSP. As a piece of Free Software, you can modify it any way you like.
13:08	<Eghie> yes, that I know
13:08	I want to use LTSP as basis
13:08	<sbalneav> If your question is: does LTSP currently support anything vaguely related to OpenAFS, then the answer would be "no"
13:08	<Eghie> I will give you a list of a brainstorm of mine, hold on
13:08	that I know, but I know enough about LTSP to hack it :)
13:09	<sbalneav> Ok, so then rather than sending us a brainstorm, why not send us patches? :)
13:09	<Eghie> lol
13:09	<sbalneav> We accept almost anything anyone's willing to put the time into make work :)
13:09	<Eghie> need to build it just yet :)
13:11	because LTSP is not working with webcams and stuff, I need to have a local client, so that's my brainstorm based on
13:11	<cliebow> what's the holdup?? ;-]
13:12	<Eghie> http://developer.thuis-online.nl/thinfatclient.txt
13:13	<sbalneav> We've pushed out localapps as a technology, you could certainly implement a webcam that way.
13:13	<Eghie> what do you mean?
13:13	<sbalneav> Run the webcam application locally on the thin client.
13:14	<Eghie> with LTSP?
13:14	how do I need to see that technology?
13:14	LTSP 2-way or something?
13:15	client<->server instead of client<-server?
13:15	<sbalneav> It's available in Intrepid, I beleive.
13:15	<Eghie> should be ok
13:15	reading the documentation
13:16	cool
13:16	seems like a good method, for things like that
13:17	so LTSP is exporting homedirectories to the client?
13:17	with NFS?
13:18	seeing the localapps link
13:18	<sbalneav> No, we're using sshfs
13:19	<Eghie> ow
13:19	<johnny> nubae, hi..
13:19	<Eghie> ah, that would be very obvious, because that communication is already arranged
13:19	<sbalneav> Since we've already got an ssh connection to the server, it's a secure way to get the home dir on the client.
13:19	<Eghie> I agree
13:20	<ogra> the prob with openafs is that it only makes sense with multiple servers
13:21	<Eghie> openafs would also be a bit faster because of the aggresive caching it does
13:21	<ogra> its an awesome thing but needs a lot love server side if you want something thats set up automatic
13:21	by the ltsp packages i mean
13:21	<Eghie> yes, that I know
13:22	Kerberos is not that easy
13:22	and OpenAFS needs kerberos
13:22	* johnny kicks nubae
13:22	<Eghie> although, it maybe will be usefull for SSO
13:22	<sbalneav> And kerberos needs ntp, etc.
13:23	<Eghie> hmm, a lot of dependencies
13:24	I want to run multiple servers myself, so OpenAFS could be very usefull for my situation I guess
13:24	so I will try it anyway
13:24	LaserJock has joined #ltsp
13:24	<LaserJock> sbalneav: perhaps this is a better place, since it's LTSP-specific?
13:24	<Eghie> but indeed, for single server it is much work to do that automaticly and has a high learning curve
13:25	<ogra> yeah
13:25	and would make the code quite complicated if we added it to the default code
13:25	<Eghie> I guess so
13:25	<ogra> i would start wint a wikipage describing a working setup with ltsp
13:25	<sbalneav> LaserJock: We're here, we're there, we're everywhere
13:25	so beware
13:26	<ogra> that then cound be scripted and become an addon package for ltsp
13:26	<LaserJock> sbalneav: I'm creating a ltsp-docs-debian branch
13:26	<sbalneav> hokiedokie
13:26	Are you a member of ltsp-docwriters?
13:26	<LaserJock> sbalneav: no, but I can put it in my +junk and have you pull it
13:26	<Eghie> ogra, I document my server installations always in a very general way, so that won't be a problem
13:27	<sbalneav> All in favour of adding LaserJock to LTSP docwriters vote now
13:27	++
13:27	<ogra> ++
13:27	<Eghie> ++
13:27	:P
13:27	<sbalneav> All opposed?
13:27	* sbalneav bangs gavel
13:27	<sbalneav> carried
13:28	ogra, make it happen.
13:28	* ogra knew there would be a drawback that involves work for him
13:28	<ogra> :P
13:28	<sbalneav> ogra: That something you can give me permission to do?
13:28	<LaserJock> woah woah
13:28	elwarreno has joined #ltsp
13:28	<sbalneav> LOL
13:29	<LaserJock> I turn my head for 1 second and you're adding me to teams? ;-)
13:29	<sbalneav> Sure
13:29	<ogra> done
13:29	* sbalneav holds out zombie hands
13:29	<sbalneav> ....one of uuuuussssss.... ....one of ussssss.....
13:29	<ogra> sbalneav, hmm, i could only make all of ltsp-upstream an admin
13:29	that doesnt really sound like the right thing
13:30	<LaserJock> ogra: thanks ... I think :-)
13:30	<ogra> LaserJock, yeah, to late anyway, no way out, you are on duty :)
13:30	* sbalneav knew we'd pull LaserJock into the ltsp fold someday.
13:30	<sbalneav> Yeah, thats it.
13:30	We're like the MAFIA man, no way out.
13:31	<ogra> pfft
13:31	<sbalneav> LaserJock: You can kiss jammcq's ring now.
13:31	<ogra> the MAFIA are sissies against us
13:31	* LaserJock wonders when the tattoo is coming
13:31	<sbalneav> <Godfather music plays in the background>
13:31	It's not personal, LaserJock, it's strictly business
13:32	Leave the gun, take the doc-commits.
13:37	<Eghie> by the way, that LocalApps support, does that use SSH+DISPLAY=:0 + start program via NBD?
13:37	+ a little theming
13:37	<LaserJock> sbalneav: so uh, we need a versioning scheme
13:37	<jammcq> hey, it's LaserJock
13:38	<LaserJock> jammcq: hi Jim
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13:39	<ogra> Eghie, no
13:40	there is a listener running on the client
13:40	on the server we set an xatom
13:40	that gets picked up by the listener
13:40	<LaserJock> sbalneav: and regarding license, LTSPManual.xml says GPLv2, do you want that or something like GPLv2+ or ...
13:40	<ogra> theming comes through the users homedir, which is mounted via sshfs, attached to the already existing ssh tunnel of ldm
13:41	<Eghie> ah, ok
13:46	* ogra starts an uboot build
13:46	<ogra> oh
13:46	ECHAN
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13:51	* LaserJock pokes sbalneav, "is he dead?"
13:52	<sbalneav> Sorry
13:52	Workpinged
13:52	Hmmm, well, that's a good one.
13:52	Legallly speaking, wouldn't I have to contact all the contributors, and ask if THEY were ok with that?
13:52	<LaserJock> sbalneav: in the .xml you have version 0.99 and GPLv2
13:53	<sbalneav> I mean, I certainly don't have a problem with going gplv2
13:54	<LaserJock> so I could do like 0.99+bzr35 for the version
13:54	<sbalneav> O, version number we're talking?
13:54	<LaserJock> and we can just update the bzr revision until we go "1.0"
13:54	<sbalneav> Sure
13:54	perfect.
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14:10	<elwarreno> i have a school that wants to deploy 28 clients with a single processor server. it has 10K scsi drives an 2 gigs of ram, which I think is fine...but the single processor is a bit concerning to me
14:11	\|Paradox\| has joined #ltsp
14:11	<elwarreno> any thoughts?
14:11	its a 2.8ghz xenon processor
14:11	<ogra> 2Gig for 28 clients ?
14:11	<_UsUrPeR_> I need to mount /home/ on a server as an nfs accessible from the client. A normal fstab entry doesn't seem to be doing the trick. Am I missing something
14:11	?
14:12	<elwarreno> they can bump the ram up, i'm not worried about that
14:12	<ogra> why dont you just enable localapps
14:12	it will mount the home automatically
14:12	<elwarreno> because they have crap hardware as clients
14:13	* ogra was talking to _UsUrPeR_, sorry
14:13	<elwarreno> oh....
14:13	hehe
14:13	<ogra> _UsUrPeR_, localapps automount the homedir via sshfs attached to the ldm tunnel
14:13	no need to fiddle with nfs additionally :)
14:14	<_UsUrPeR_> ogra: whoops. this is Fedora. Is that the same?
14:14	<johnny> ogra, nubae still uses nfs for fatclients tho
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14:14	<johnny> _UsUrPeR_, if you have the right revision of ltsp-trunk yes
14:14	<ogra> _UsUrPeR_, if it deploys localapps
14:14	<\|Paradox\|> has anyone looked into NComputing? looks like they took LTSP and implemented it and a Linux server in hardware..... System On a Chip.....But, of, course, I could be wrong about it being LTSP, but, it is very similar...
14:14	<_UsUrPeR_> hmm...
14:14	<johnny> warren wrot something about it
14:14	if you're using a version that was created in the past 2 or 3 months
14:14	then it should be fine
14:14	<_UsUrPeR_> is there a lts.conf or other place I need to enable this?
14:15	<johnny> no
14:15	<ogra> johnny, nubae doesnt use ldm on the fat clients (in fact he couldnt)
14:15	<johnny> oh.. that's right..
14:15	<Lns> elwarreno: I would be wary of even a single Xeon CPU for 28 clients. I have 35, and they struggle sometimes w/8GB RAM and 2x dualcore Xeon 1.6GHz. how many cores?
14:15	<warren> _UsUrPeR_: if you install fedora LTSP, it just works
14:15	<elwarreno> just one, far as i can tell
14:15	<Lns> elwarreno: I would at the least bump Ram up to 4GB (more if possible)
14:15	<warren> _UsUrPeR_: test it with /usr/bin/ltsp-localapps /usr/bin/xterm
14:15	<Lns> elwarreno: it's going to be sluggish with a single core CPU.
14:15	<ogra> warren, on FC9 ... does that have the right ssh version ?
14:15	<warren> ogra: yes
14:15	<elwarreno> lns: that is what i thought
14:15	<ogra> then it should just work
14:16	<johnny> hmm.. now if only package kit let me search descriptions ..
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14:16	<ogra> its a nice sideeffect, you dont need to use localappy but get the sshfs home for free :)
14:16	<Lns> elwarreno: depends on what they're running, and what you're running as localapps though - if Firefox/ OOo is going to run on the server, definitely up the CPU spec.
14:17	elwarreno: Maybe run XFCE instead of gnome, too... but again, a single-core, single CPU server for 28 clients is really not a great idea
14:20	<elwarreno> lns: what do you think the maximum number of clients on a dual processor quad core server is?
14:21	<_UsUrPeR_> warren: yes, ltsp-localapps works great
14:21	<sbalneav> elwarreno: All depends on what they're doing. If all they're doing is launching IceWM with an xterm so they can read their email in Mutt, couple hundred, maybe
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14:21	<sbalneav> If they're all goingt to watch fullscreen movies, 10. :)
14:21	<Lns> elwarreno: depends on the speed of the cpus, but for example, i have 2x dualcore Xeon 1.6GHz HP Proliant servers that have 35 clients on at the same time...usually no hickups at all (unless using some horribly coded flash site in FF)
14:21	<ogra> heh
14:22	sbalneav is optimistic
14:22	<johnny> localapps is required for that i guess..
14:22	<Lns> lol..yeah, try teaching mutt (or the shell at all) to < 13 year old students
14:22	<johnny> imma test local apps with firefox and flash
14:22	<ogra> i guess ten remote fullscreen videos would just kill your network
14:23	not a server CPU issue though
14:23	<Lns> elwarreno: make sure you have at least 1x GB/sec NIC in the server, too
14:23	<sbalneav> Lns: kids wouldn't have a problem with mutt. Try a 50 year old lawyer :)
14:23	<Lns> sbalneav: yeah, i kinda caught myself there..it's more the teachers/admin staff that has trouble grasping the shell ;)
14:24	* Lns is going to test out ethernet bonding soon w/ltsp
14:24	* ogra twiddles thumbs waiting for his blogpost to apear in planet ... so he can call it a day
14:25	<Lns> ogra: what's your blog url?
14:25	<sbalneav> Now, me, I think this whole gui thing's a fad. I use irssi for irc, mutt for mail, and I'm perfectly happy using elinks for web.
14:25	<ogra> Lns, planet.ubuntu.com :P
14:25	<Lns> heh
14:25	<ogra> its linked from there
14:26	<sbalneav> When all the colour pixes run out in the world, WHO'LL BE LAUGHING THEN, SMART GUY!?!?!
14:26	muahahaha
14:26	* ogra is so looking forward to deploy ltsp for beagleboards :)
14:26	<sbalneav> s/pixes/pixels/
14:26	<Lns> ogra: cool!
14:26	sbalneav: I actually agree...GUIs will morph into more intelligent interfaces (mind control?)
14:26	<pscheie> sbalneav, that's just another fad; teletype is where it's really at
14:27	<sbalneav> I agree
14:27	vagrantc has joined #ltsp
14:27	<sbalneav> asr 33 current loop for the win
14:27	Had one once. Hooked it up to my Commie 64
14:27	150 baud of pure rock-n-roll
14:27	I had a BELT printer too!
14:28	<LaserJock> ogra, sbalneav: does the main LTSP package include a lts.conf man page?
14:28	<ogra> no
14:28	<sbalneav> should we move all manpages to the doc tree?
14:29	<ogra> no
14:29	<sbalneav> Or is that bad form?
14:29	<pscheie> years ago I met a fellow, who I didn't know in university, who had been two years ahead of me at university
14:29	* Lns chuckles at lts.conf manpage talk as he remembers the conversation a few weeks ago
14:29	<pscheie> he did all his work on teletypes; by the time I came along, we had glorious green screen terminals everywhere
14:29	although the teletypes were still sitting in the corner
14:29	<Lns> ahh, green terminals. I still use green as font color in my xterms.
14:29	<LaserJock> sbalneav: no, I just wondered if it was duplication
14:30	<ogra> sbalneav, the manpages for the apps should sit in the upstream sourcetree ... we might though have a manpage tree that can be merged regulary into ltsp-trunk
14:30	<sbalneav> I want to get a comprehensive lts.conf man page.
14:30	<ogra> :(
14:31	* Lns offered to try and write a lts.conf manpage, but was scoffed at because they were "too difficult to format"
14:31	<sbalneav> We've got a lot of it documented in the LTSPManual.xml, I'm wondering if I should pull out some of the common bits, to avoid duplication.
14:31	Who scoffed?
14:31	Not I, surely
14:31	* ogra still isnt a fan of promoting lts.conf
14:32	<Lns> sbalneav: i forget..there was a conversation that ended up being about how many different ways there are to write a manpage
14:32	<sbalneav> Well, we obviously should try to have everything be automagical as it is now.
14:32	but there's always going to be exceptions.
14:32	<Lns> ogra: there will always be manual configuration :)
14:32	<ogra> right, and make sure users dont mistake lts.conf for something they need
14:32	<Lns> Can't get away from that in all situations
14:33	<ogra> i didnt say i dont like manual overrides
14:33	<Gadi> so, what is the best low-level app to get the MAC address of a remote machine based on IP?
14:33	<ogra> but there was a time where you needed lts.conf and had to configure it
14:33	<Lns> ah
14:33	<sbalneav> right
14:33	<Lns> Gadi: arp?
14:33	<ogra> users from that time often start fiddling with it before even trying to use ltsp without it
14:33	<Gadi> what if it is not in the arp table
14:34	<sbalneav> I'll make sure to note in the docs that LTSP should work in 95% of the cases without it.
14:34	<ogra> its something that coseted us significant amounts of time in the past in support
14:34	<Lns> Gadi: not sure then.. are you talking about on a lan, or routed wan?
14:34	<sbalneav> ogra++ sure, I'm very happy with the way things work very automatically now, and don't want to lose that.
14:34	<ogra> right
14:35	make sure to point that out loud enough
14:35	<sbalneav> Roger-roget
14:35	Roger-roger
14:35	<Gadi> Lns: say wan
14:35	<sbalneav> wan
14:35	<Gadi> or just multiple hops away on lan
14:35	<sbalneav> san
14:35	<Lns> Gadi: hmm.
14:35	<sbalneav> lan
14:35	c-pan
14:36	<ogra> Gadi, arp i son ethernet level
14:36	*is on
14:36	<Gadi> right
14:36	<Lns> not sure...never heard of a way to do that on a low level..of course i'm not the most experienced guy to say so ;)
14:36	<Gadi> which means it wont work across wan?
14:36	<ogra> no easy way to make that work across ethernet segments
14:36	<Gadi> or multiple hops?
14:37	<ogra> it would if you have managed switches that forward such things
14:37	<Lns> Gadi: MACs dont' get routed on an IP wan, right? Stops at the router
14:37	<Gadi> right
14:37	"such things" = arp table?
14:37	<Lns> by default anyway...for example, i don't think there's a way (without multiple programs) to get YOUR MAC from my office
14:37	<ogra> proxy arp
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14:38	* Lns stops his half-knowing babble
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14:41	* Lns hates gnome's "display menu whenever titlebar is offscreen" "feature"
14:43	<_UsUrPeR_> We have a customer who needs all attempts to access any portion of a client's secure filesystem (i.e. cat /etc/passwd or /var/log/messages or anything) to be logged on the server. That's through an ltsp-localapps xterm window or any other way. How would I enable this?
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14:45	<warren> _UsUrPeR_: that's difficult even on a normal linux system, and cannot be relied upon in this circumstance
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14:45	<warren> _UsUrPeR_: you will also find that some legitimate programs appear to access /etc/passwd
14:46	in any case, there's no easy way to do it
14:46	<Lns> _UsUrPeR_: did you think about using an IDS instead? Maybe one of those can do what you want.
14:48	<_UsUrPeR_> the customer is a contractor for the DOD and had no need to log this stuff on their previous build we did with ltsp 4.2. Now that ltsp-localapps is being used extensively for their new software, we need a way to make sure if an individual is trying something untoward, that it is logged.
14:49	Lns: IDS on the client? I.E. SElinux install on the client image?
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14:49	<Lns> _UsUrPeR_: Really not sure, I don't have enough knowledge about SElinux to say
14:50	Pascal_Debian has left #ltsp
14:50	<_UsUrPeR_> the program is an enigma :)
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14:53	<fgiraldeau> hi there
14:53	sbalneav: I think it will be possible to remove expect
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14:53	<fgiraldeau> I'm mostly able to get the whole thing working
14:54	<sbalneav> Ah, nice
14:54	libssh doing the job?
14:54	<fgiraldeau> Don't know much time yet, but at least, but today I've been able to do the hardest part, the control socket
14:54	<sbalneav> Ah, so you're having to modify libssh
14:54	<fgiraldeau> libssh don't do the control socket part
14:54	<sbalneav> right
14:54	<fgiraldeau> other things are all right
14:55	<sbalneav> that was where I stopped looking. But you're patching libssh?
14:55	<fgiraldeau> the libssh guys said that it was application specific
14:55	I didn't saw an RFC about multiplexig channels
14:55	so, they will probably not include that
14:56	the idea is to open a socket, listen to it
14:56	<sbalneav> Eurgh. Do we need to patch libssh to get the socket, or can we create it within ldm?
14:56	<fgiraldeau> listen for connexion
14:56	the ssh client ask for a channel
14:56	then you open one and forward everything to the created channel
14:57	we will only have to create it with LDM
14:57	<sbalneav> Oh, well that's ok then.
14:57	<fgiraldeau> Yeah, I think it's not too bad
14:58	And I prefer to use the glib ;)
14:58	and libssh doesn't
14:58	;)
14:58	What about you, what'S up?
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14:59	<sbalneav> I've been hacking docs for the last several days.
14:59	<fgiraldeau> Great
14:59	<sbalneav> Have a look at the docs, I've got them much better organized.
14:59	!doco
14:59	<ltspbot> sbalneav: "doco" is you can find the link to the latest, and most current upstream documentation at: http://wiki.ltsp.org/twiki/bin/view/Ltsp/LtspDocumentationUpstream
14:59	<fgiraldeau> that's HUGE!
15:00	<sbalneav> and LaserJock's going to help me to get packaging for an "ltsp-docs" package :)
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15:00	<fgiraldeau> ok
15:01	It'S pretty nice
15:02	<sbalneav> getting there...
15:02	getting there...
15:02	OK, I have to buzz off to the criminal law office, and set up a dvd drive for someone.
15:02	I'll be on tonight.
15:02	later all
15:03	<fgiraldeau> Later ;)
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15:17	<bleve> evening.
15:17	is there any way to force gdmchooser not to list certain ip addresses?
15:18	<johnny> gdmchooser?
15:18	<bleve> currently gdmchooser is listing all ltsp-server's ip addresses
15:18	<johnny> is this ltsp4 ?
15:18	<bleve> yep.
15:18	<johnny> not ltsp5
15:18	?
15:19	<bleve> this is not ltsp-version dependand afaik.
15:19	<johnny> yes it is
15:19	ltsp5 doesn't use gdm
15:19	<bleve> it does it's own chooser?
15:19	<johnny> yes
15:19	cuz it runs locally
15:19	on the machine itself
15:20	and authenticates over ssh
15:20	<bleve> ok.
15:20	that's different.
15:20	<johnny> and then pops you over to what runs on the server
15:20	<bleve> understood.
15:21	but I don't have possibility to upgrade to ltsp-5 now.
15:21	<johnny> then i have no idea
15:21	i've never ran ltsp4
15:21	perhaps some old hands here can answer
15:21	<bleve> I did run ltsp-3 :-)
15:22	and xterminals before there was ltsp :-)
15:22	<johnny> your ability to get help is limited by that.. only a few folks know how to mess with it
15:22	perhaps you should post on the list
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15:24	<bleve> I can switch over to xdm or kdm if it helps.
15:24	but I didn't have time for that yet.
15:25	<johnny> not me
15:25	i only run x remotely over ssh
15:25	never set up gdm and friends for remote access
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15:45	<EeyoreJr> how does one find the mac address of the thin client?
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16:01	<vagrantc> EeyoreJr: grep DHCP /var/log/syslog /var/log/messages
16:01	EeyoreJr: look for the mac address that correlates to the ip address
16:02	if you're using dynamic ip addresses
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16:18	<EeyoreJr> vagrantc: nothing
16:18	<vagrantc> EeyoreJr: on the DHCP server?
16:21	<EeyoreJr> using the command u gave me, it returns and nothing is there. i'm on ubuntu, would it be different?
16:22	<vagrantc> have you tried to boot the thin client?
16:23	<EeyoreJr> i have four of them booted
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16:28	<LaserJock> sbalneav: when you get back check out the new ltsp-docs-debian branch
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16:33	<vagrantc> EeyoreJr: are you using dhcp3-server?
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16:38	<EeyoreJr> i assume so. i'm using ubuntu's version of ltsp server
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16:39	<vagrantc> EeyoreJr: you used the exact command i gave you?
16:39	EeyoreJr: did you do it as root?
16:40	<EeyoreJr> yes. i'll try again. i've examined those logs visually and don't see that info there
16:40	<vagrantc> if there's really nothing there, ubuntu must log differently than Debian ...
16:41	<EeyoreJr> grr. i hate it when stuff does not work across flavors
16:41	<vagrantc> well, ubuntu is more than a flavor of debian
16:42	<EeyoreJr> sigh, yes, i know
16:45	<LaserJock> EeyoreJr: I don't see anything in the Ubuntu changelog that would affect logging
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16:47	<LaserJock> EeyoreJr: you might try grep -R DHCP /var/log/*
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16:50	<EeyoreJr> thx LaserJock
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17:45	<kaos01> hi, just set up LTSP5 and it seems a lot slower than LTST4.2
17:45	is there a "secret" to make it faster ? :)
17:47	<johnny> LDM_DIRECTX=Y
17:47	in lts.conf
17:47	<ogra> depends what is slow :)
17:47	<johnny> that'll help
17:47	a bit
17:48	<ogra> the bootprocess definately is slwer due to more autodetection thngs
17:48	<kaos01> yes i got LDM_DIRECTX=Y, its teh default
17:48	its so so much fuster via xdmcp
17:48	well the desktop comes up slow, once loged in
17:49	once loged in, its all fine
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17:50	<ogra> LDM_DIRECTX=Y isnt a default
17:50	<kaos01> it is for me :)
17:51	# LDM_DIRECTX=yes allows greater scalability and performance # Turn this off if you want greater security instead. LDM_DIRECTX=yes
17:51	<ogra> ugh
17:51	where is that text from
17:51	<kaos01> fedora install
17:51	<ogra> LDM_DIRECTX=Y drops nearly all security
17:52	<kaos01> /var/lib/tftpboot/ltsp/i386/lts.conf
17:52	<ogra> warren, ^^^ ?
17:52	<warren> ?
17:52	<ogra> thats a really bad text
17:52	<warren> ogra: what is untrue about it?
17:52	<ogra> zero security vs. full encryption ...
17:53	"allows greater scalability and performance" sounds like yay thats cool
17:53	* warren resists pointing out a parallel
17:53	<ogra> it should really mention that it drops all security apart from the password handshake encryption
17:54	<warren> fine, I'll change the language
17:54	<kaos01> i also noticed that when loging in via LDM, i dont see the "KDE loading all components screen"
17:54	anyhow, it takes over 1 minute for the desktop to load
17:55	* ogra has no experience with KDE past 1.2
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18:01	<kaos01> well gnome is also slow to load, i also noticed that KDE is much faster to load than gnome
18:02	<ogra> in ubuntu its pretty fast ... i cant judge FC though
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18:30	<stgraber> It takes something like 5s for a gnome session to open on Intrepid, 25s for KDE4 when it's a new login ~5s when it's an existing account (the additional 20s is a bug we're working on)
18:48	<sbalneav> Evening all
18:48	<stgraber> evening sbalneav
18:48	<LaserJock> sbalneav: welcome back
18:49	<sbalneav> LaserJock: I will check out your work
18:49	<LaserJock> sbalneav: I made several commits to the ltsp-docs-trunk branch as well
18:50	sbalneav: adding AUTHORS, COPYING, a .omf and then disabling man page creation in the Makefile for now
18:50	<sbalneav> LaserJock: lp:~laserjock/ltsp/ltsp-docs-debian
18:50	?
18:51	Oh, fine
18:51	See, you needed -trunk
18:51	told you so :)
18:51	<LaserJock> sbalneav: what?
18:51	<sbalneav> We added you to docwriters, so you could update -trunk
18:51	<LaserJock> lp:~ltsp-docwriters/ltsp/ltsp-docs-debian is the packaging branch
18:51	I did
18:52	<sbalneav> ah, ok
18:52	<LaserJock> I created a ltsp-docs-debian branch to hold the packaging
18:52	I figured -trunk should be distro-neutral
18:53	and would allow us to mess around with packaging things without adding commits to -trunk
18:54	there are still a few little things that I think we'll want to change
18:54	<sbalneav> So, when we want to create a package of the latest docs, we just merge from trunk?
18:54	<LaserJock> yep
18:54	<stgraber> yeah, we shouldn't have any packaging stuff in the -trunk branches
18:54	<sbalneav> saweeet
18:55	<LaserJock> bzr-builddeb might have some goodies, but what I did manually was:
18:55	export from -trunk to ltsp-docs-0.99+bzr<revision>
18:56	tar -czf that directory into ltsp-docs_0.99+bzr<revision>.orig.tar.gz
18:56	actually, i think bzr export can export straight to a tarball, so that would be better
18:57	then you can export -debian to ltsp-docs-0.99+bzr<revision>
18:57	and debuild -S in that and it'll create your source package
18:58	jammcq has joined #ltsp
18:58	<jammcq> hello #ltsp
18:58	<sbalneav> Evening jammcq
18:58	<stgraber> LaserJock: what's in -debian ? only debian/ or is that a branch of -trunk with all the doc in it ?
18:58	<jammcq> sbalneav: wow, early for you
18:58	<LaserJock> stgraber: full branch
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18:59	<LaserJock> stgraber: I'm not sure how to back out an .orig.tar.gz out of that nicely
18:59	perhaps it'd be more straightforward to just do debian/
19:00	if we were patching -trunk it's nice to just do that in bzr
19:00	but I can't imagine that happening really
19:01	<sbalneav> LaserJock: Trying it now
19:01	<stgraber> LaserJock: I usually only have the debian/ in my -debian branches, then just do the orig from the trunk, unpack it and put the debian/ from the -debian branch in it, then debuild and dput
19:02	<LaserJock> right, makes sense
19:02	<stgraber> LaserJock: and if I need distro-specific I usually do some dpatch on the upstream code
19:02	<laprag> hello jammcq
19:02	<jammcq> laprag: howdie
19:02	<laprag> and sbalneav
19:02	<LaserJock> stgraber: supposedly when source packages go away we're supposed to get rid of debian/ only branches :-)
19:03	<sbalneav> Hey laprag
19:03	<stgraber> LaserJock: yeah :)
19:03	JROCK2004 has joined #ltsp
19:04	<JROCK2004> Is there a site that I can look at that will tell me how powerful my LTSP server should be if I am running 60 clients on it
19:04	<sbalneav> !doco
19:04	<ltspbot> sbalneav: "doco" is you can find the link to the latest, and most current upstream documentation at: http://wiki.ltsp.org/twiki/bin/view/Ltsp/LtspDocumentationUpstream
19:04	<sbalneav> Check out the sizing section
19:05	<LaserJock> 60 clients is quite a lot isn't it?
19:05	isn't ~30 more common?
19:05	<sbalneav> 60's doable, but you're going to need a really good server
19:06	<JROCK2004> well I just got this job and they are using 45 LTSP servers round robin together
19:06	<stgraber> LaserJock: we have some servers that can handle 50-80 clients depending on what they do but that's dual-quadcore Xeon with 8GB of DDR2
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19:06	<sbalneav> LaserJock: Where does the .tar.gz go? into the branch of debian?
19:06	<LaserJock> stgraber: spiffy
19:06	<warren> stgraber: do you have more than gigabit interfaces?
19:06	<LaserJock> sbalneav: above the branch
19:06	<sbalneav> ok
19:07	<JROCK2004> does it matter what desktop manager is being pushed?
19:07	I am assuming yes
19:07	<stgraber> warren: each server are gigabit (or dual-gigabit for some of them), connected to gigabit switches and then a fiber link to the schools with gigabit to the classrooms and 100Mbit to the thin clients
19:08	<warren> stgraber: flash videos don't swamp the bandwidth easily?
19:08	<LaserJock> stgraber: what, not using wifi?? ;-)
19:08	<stgraber> warren: flash is always a pain, that's why we are working on localapps :)
19:09	<sbalneav> sbalneav@phobos:~/Devel/bzr/ltsp-docs-0.99+bzr40$ debuild -S
19:09	This package has a Debian revision number but there does not seem to be
19:09	an appropriate original tar file or .orig directory in the parent directory;
19:09	(expected ltsp-docs_0.99+bzr39.orig.tar.gz or ltsp-docs-0.99+bzr40.orig)
19:09	continue anyway? (y/n) n
19:09	LaserJock: ?
19:09	wha I do wrong
19:10	<stgraber> sbalneav: what's the name of your .orig.tar.gz ? and what's in the version field of the changelog ?
19:10	<LaserJock> sbalneav: is the tarball called ltsp-docs_0.99+bzr39.orig.tar.gz
19:10	<sbalneav> no, I called it bzr40
19:10	<stgraber> sbalneav: ok, so you'll need to change it in debian/changelog as well
19:10	<sbalneav> ah, ok
19:10	hurf durf
19:11	<stgraber> sbalneav: well, either change it or add an entry, depends if the package has been released or not
19:11	<LaserJock> i.e. just change it in this case
19:13	<sbalneav> hm
19:13	debsign failed.
19:13	<LaserJock> that's good
19:13	you're not me
19:14	debuild -S -us -uc will let it go unsigned
19:14	or debuild -S -k<gpg key id> if you want to sign it
19:15	<sbalneav> Oooh, schmegy
19:15	Hmmm, so how did the PPA thing work again?
19:16	<stgraber> for the PPA you'll need to have your name in the changelog and sign it with your gpg key (debuild -S -sa) so LP knows it's you
19:16	then you can dput it to LP and it'll build (you can either send it to your own PPA or to a team PPA)
19:17	rjune_ has joined #ltsp
19:17	<sbalneav> ok, hold on
19:17	<LaserJock> stgraber: you have to have it in the changelog too?
19:17	<sbalneav> gimme 10 minutes to document what I've done so far
19:17	dammit I'm NOT going to forget this time.
19:18	<stgraber> LaserJock: hmm, well now that you mention it ... :) I guess it does the same check as for the standard ubuntu uploads so only having it GPG signed should work
19:19	<sbalneav> ok, so what's the bzr command to find out what revision of the tree I'm on?
19:19	it isn't bzr version :)
19:19	<LaserJock> I just do bzr log
19:19	<stgraber> sbalneav: bzr revno
19:20	<LaserJock> but actually, I think we should mess the procedure up
19:20	<sbalneav> stgraber: How do you fit such a massive brain into that little body?
19:20	<LaserJock> and go with a debian/ only branch
19:20	<sbalneav> so, ditch all the other files from the -debian branch?
19:20	<stgraber> LaserJock: sounds good
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19:21	<LaserJock> sbalneav: yeah, it lets you basically just export the -debian branch into -trunk and build
19:22	<sbalneav> ok, I'm jiggy with that.
19:22	<LaserJock> stgraber: so would you do the following:
19:23	export -trunk as .orig.tar.gz
19:23	export -debian into -trunk
19:23	debuild
19:23	or would you want to export -trunk and then -debian into a separate directory altogether
19:24	<sbalneav> Have you guys deleted all the files yet from -debian?
19:24	<LaserJock> nope
19:25	<stgraber> I'd do the same as for the other upstream branches, commit a "version blah" revision, tag it using mkdst (from mkdst-trunk), then use mkdst to get the .orig.tar.gz from it. Then unpack the .orig.tar.gz, add debian/ from -debian and then debuild
19:25	<LaserJock> ok
19:26	<stgraber> so you get a new upstream tagged (other distros can use the same tag), get a .tar.gz of it and then do the usual packaging work on it
19:27	(IIRC mkdst needs a release.conf file in the upstream branch though, we may need to add that)
19:29	<sbalneav> ok, you guys are losing me again. I'll wait till things settle down before I do documentation.
19:30	LaserJock: Let me know when you've got the -debian version fixed up
19:31	<LaserJock> sbalneav: ok
19:31	<stgraber> sbalneav: basically the idea is to do the same with the doc that we do with ldm-trunk, ltsp-trunk and ltspfs-trunk. So packagers will just have to do the same for the doc.
19:32	<LaserJock> ok, i need to run
19:32	gonna go have a birthday dinner
19:32	so if we drop a release.conf in -trunk
19:33	and do debian/ only in -debian we should be pretty good to go
19:33	<stgraber> yeah
19:33	<sbalneav> o
19:33	k
19:33	<LaserJock> I've not used mkdst before but it looks pretty straight forward
19:33	<sbalneav> Happy Birthda!
19:34	<LaserJock> sbalneav: I'll let you know when I get it all fixed up, keep hacking away at docs ;-)
19:34	LaserJock has quit IRC
19:38	<sbalneav> Hokie dokie
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21:52	<beakburke> hey,
21:52	just sent a reply back to the listserv Stretchem
21:54	<Stretchem> Yes, I was thinking that too (swapped NIC's). I'm remote at the moment, but tomorrow will actually open the machine and get MAC's
21:54	<beakburke> ahhh
21:54	<Stretchem> to verify
21:54	<beakburke> Are they the same model?
21:55	<Stretchem> No. One's onboard and the other PCI. However, the OS is identify chipsets, for which I have no idea which is which
21:56	<beakburke> What brand is the PCI nic?
21:56	do you know?
21:56	<Stretchem> The PCI is a TrendNet
21:56	the onboard is in a Dell PowerEdge SC440
21:56	one is Realtek... the other is Broadcomm
21:57	tarbo has quit IRC
21:58	<Stretchem> for the CentOS installs, eth0 is the Realtek, and eth1 is the Broadcom, and I know that works
21:58	unfortunately I didn't take that detail level of notes on the F9 install. will do that tomorrow
21:59	<beakburke> http://www.coffer.com/mac_find/
22:01	Looks like it's seeing the Dell onboard as eth0.
22:01	<Stretchem> perfect... so the Realtek is the Trendnet
22:01	which on the working installation of CentOS5 is eth0 :)
22:01	<beakburke> Yup
22:02	Actually, it should be easier for you this time
22:02	IIRC, by default NetworkManager only controls eth0
22:03	CaScAdE^1arAway has joined #ltsp
22:04	<Stretchem> okay, so we're saying that F9 is saying eth0 is the on board... while CentOS is saying eth0 is the PCI card
22:04	<beakburke> and that will work just fine if you have DHCP on your outside network, you just leave eth0 as dhcp and let network manager handle it.
22:04	yep
22:04	actually
22:04	<Stretchem> so my fix would be to change the IP schemes accordingly
22:05	<beakburke> it has to do with the kernel, exactly, match your IP scheme
22:05	I just set them both to DHCP, see which one gets an address, and then set the other one to be the bridge
22:05	<Stretchem> when installing F9, I'm going to tell it to set eth0 to my existing 'internet' with the 192.168.1.x
22:06	hanthana has quit IRC
22:06	<Stretchem> okay... can do that
22:06	my bridge will be the eth1 in this case, instead of eth0 as I have been doing
22:06	<beakburke> Exactly
22:07	<Stretchem> makes sense to me!
22:07	<beakburke> Getting the right NIC is the single hardest part of this process
22:07	seems silly to the outsider, but it's true
22:08	<Stretchem> didn't think much to make notes of the MAC's and what's what
22:08	Been a great help. Thanks a lot!
22:09	CaScAdE^FarAway has quit IRC
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22:10	<beakburke> Well, I'm outa here, anyone else need anything?
22:11	nite
22:11	beakburke has quit IRC
22:16	<sbalneav> YAHAHHAHAHHAAAAA!
22:16	BWAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHHAHAHAAHHA!
22:17	\o/
22:17	Anyone on, or care, about my manual issues?
22:18	<cyberorg> sbalneav, happy hour on? :)
22:18	<sbalneav> Oh, with a vengeance.
22:18	So, I've had a couple of different issues.
22:18	warren has quit IRC
22:19	<sbalneav> 1) how to maintain a proper list of all our lts.conf parameters.
22:19	2) How not to have to maintain a duplicate copy of that info in the administrators guide.
22:19	So, popped into #docbook tonight, and chatted with a bloke named MikeSmith
22:20	Well, turns out, if we use a different tool chain other than openjade, which doesn't handle the <xi:include .../> tag
22:20	then I can maintain the lts.conf.xml manual page in one file
22:21	and reference/inlcude the sections I need in the LTSPManual file.
22:21	Plus, he recommended ditching openjade for pdfs, and using dblatex
22:21	johnny has joined #ltsp
22:21	<sbalneav> and the pdf manual looks way nicer now.
22:22	gimme a sec, I'll push a rev
22:22	<cyberorg> thats cool :)
22:23	<loather-work> latex is cool
22:25	<sbalneav> !doco
22:25	<ltspbot> sbalneav: "doco" is you can find the link to the latest, and most current upstream documentation at: http://wiki.ltsp.org/twiki/bin/view/Ltsp/LtspDocumentationUpstream
22:26	<sbalneav> take a look at the pdf now.
22:27	japerry has joined #ltsp
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22:28	<jammcq> sbalneav: so, you think you are pretty sharp, eh?
22:28	<sbalneav> FYI, the sample lts.conf file USED to be copy/pasted from lts.conf.xml to the LTSPManual.xml file. Now, the section's just included.
22:29	<jammcq> sbalneav: are you guys using A4 paper way up there in canada ?
22:29	<sbalneav> Never sharp. Simply persistent
22:29	Is it in a4?
22:29	* sbalneav looks
22:29	<jammcq> yeah, it's just a little off kilter
22:29	<sbalneav> heh
22:30	yeah, so it is.
22:30	I'm sure it's just some kind of command line option somewhere
22:30	<jammcq> I must say, it's pretty nice looking
22:31	page 24, section 7.1
22:32	in /var/lib/tftpboot/ltsp/<arch, where <arch is the
22:32	is it supposed to have '>' after arch ?
22:32	<sbalneav> yeah,
22:32	hold on
22:32	<jammcq> well...
22:33	<sbalneav> yeah, missing a couple of >'s
22:36	<jammcq> on page 3, the collaborators names get a bit wonky starting with Gadi's name
22:36	japerry has quit IRC
22:40	<jammcq> anyway, looks damn good. I'm heading to bed. ciao
22:44	<warren> collaborator sounds so negative
22:48	<johnny> contributors
22:48	warrenz
22:48	hello
22:49	so.. maybe someday the time will come when we do not need shmconfig for synaptics config..
22:49	<try2free> hi everyone
22:50	i have problem can not shutdown after add acpi=off, can someone give a hint?
22:52	<johnny> turning acpi off sounds like a bad idea..
22:52	unless absolutely required
22:53	<try2free> johnny: i am using old machine, there a message about acpi bios. and i turn it off
22:54	<sbalneav> try2free: you could try acpi=force
22:54	if not, then you've got a buggy/broken acpi
22:55	<johnny> try2free, what happens when you hit shutdown ?
22:56	<try2free> johnny: just hang.
22:56	<sbalneav> warren: Why does collaborator sound negative?
22:56	<try2free> sbalneav: i already try with no different
22:56	<sbalneav> What happens if you hold in the power button for 5 seconds?
22:57	<johnny> hang when ?
22:57	<try2free> sbalneav: power off
22:58	<johnny> hang a a blinking cursor?
22:58	<try2free> johnny: hang when i choose shutdown
22:58	<johnny> right away?
22:58	or after doing stuff?
22:58	without acpi, it should shut down most of the way, but not turn off
22:58	it can't turn off without acpi
22:58	<try2free> johnny: after choose shutdown seems pc going to power off, i can see from my blinking keyboard but it doesn't
22:59	<johnny> sure.. but what is on the screen
22:59	is gnome/kde/whatever already gone?
22:59	<try2free> johnny: no still there
22:59	<johnny> oh
22:59	sounds like a bug then..
23:00	<sbalneav> try2free: it's just an old buggy acpi
23:00	<johnny> even if there wasn't a bug tho.. the most that could happen was that everything would be unmounted, but the pc would still be on
23:00	<sbalneav> i'd suggest looking for a bios upgrade for the motherboard
23:00	<johnny> sbalneav, but with acpi forced off, it should pretend it doesn't exist right?
23:00	and just shut down cleanly, but leaving the pc on
23:01	<try2free> thanks guys
23:01	<sbalneav> not necessarily
23:02	In the chroot, what's in the /opt/ltsp/i386/etc/acpi/powerbtn.sh file?
23:03	You might get better success by changing it from the big long script, to poweroff -fp
23:03	<try2free> another question, i have two pc with ltsp sever installed. if i connect with ltsp client the first to ltsp server machine resolution looks ok 1024x768, but in second ltsp server looks bad only display 640x480, both have same ltsp 5, and both setting same, why?
23:04	<sbalneav> this won't cleanly unmount the nbd root dir, but it should time out after 5 minutes and exit.
23:04	are the two pc's exactly the same?
23:05	<try2free> i think yes, the only different first pc has been upgrade from ubuntu 7.10 to 8.04. second pc from fresh ubuntu 8.04
23:07	<sbalneav> try2free: did you upgrade the chroot?
23:07	or just the host?
23:07	<try2free> yes, i always
23:07	<sbalneav> how did you upgrade the chroot?
23:08	<try2free> sbalneav: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/UpdatingChroot
23:10	<sbalneav> So the one with the problems is the fresh 8.04, and the upgraded one works?
23:11	Is it the same client you use for both, or are the clients different?
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23:11	<try2free> sbalneav: same pc
23:11	sbalneav: the problem with upgraded one
23:11	<johnny> gernally you shouldn't upgrade the chroot.. much cleaner to wipe it
23:11	between ubuntu releases
23:12	personally.. i find ubuntu 8.04 mostly unusable with ltsp..
23:12	<try2free> johnny: why? what makes different?
23:12	<sbalneav> johnny: Any particular reason?
23:12	<johnny> most common problem was that people would get a desktop with no taskbar after hard restarting
23:13	taskbars*
23:13	so i'd have to pkill -u $user often
23:13	hasn't happened once since the intrepid upgrade
23:13	or the dreaded "firefox is already running"
23:13	alkisg has joined #ltsp
23:14	<sbalneav> define "hard restarting"? hitting the power button while logged in?
23:14	<johnny> yes
23:14	<sbalneav> You do that, results will always be unexpected.
23:14	<johnny> not anymore :)
23:14	everything comes up perfect every time
23:15	<sbalneav> Well, there's certainly nothing in LTSP that would make that any different.
23:15	<johnny> nope
23:15	definitely gnome fixes
23:15	gvfs related i imagine
23:16	<sbalneav> I've moved my hardy users over to the new LDM, and that's made just about all my dead processes go away.
23:17	<johnny> sbalneav, perhaps gvfs never should have shipped..
23:17	when it did..
23:17	* sbalneav shrugs
23:17	<johnny> i had problems with every gnome based distro
23:17	<sbalneav> things ship when they ship :)
23:17	<johnny> obviously
23:17	but it was rushed
23:18	it shipped with regressions
23:18	nasty ones
23:18	<sbalneav> Test it before it shipped?
23:18	<johnny> barely
23:18	nearly 11th hour changes going on at that time period
23:18	<sbalneav> Hardly anybody seemed to be doing much testing with hardy.
23:18	Personally, I'd say we got what we deserved :)
23:19	<johnny> the problem wasn't hardy tho..
23:19	it was gnome itself
23:19	they were semi close to delaying the release by a month due to gvfs issues
23:19	it took a heavy concerted effort to push it through
23:19	<sbalneav> But not enough people raised a big enough stink.
23:20	<johnny> that's because .. as i said.. it wasn't ready for testing :)
23:20	they were concerned about extending the release due to distro ship dates tho
23:20	like ubuntu...
23:21	sometimes certain changes take more than 6 months to percolate through properly
23:21	<sbalneav> Personally, what I saw around gutsy was, me screaming and hollering for testers, and getting nothing but the sound of crickets.
23:21	<johnny> you mean ltsp related? or in general?
23:21	<sbalneav> LTSP related.
23:21	<johnny> ltsp wasn't my problem.. :)
23:21	it was gnome!
23:22	<sbalneav> No, but ther WERE LTSP problems in gutsy
23:22	<johnny> hmm.. i never had any..
23:22	except trying to get dnsmasq to work :)
23:22	and then using the patched autologin stuff
23:22	<sbalneav> and users after the fact popped up and got very snarky about the quality of the work that got done. "Unmitigated disaster" one user called it.
23:23	<johnny> i doubt that was all about ltsp...
23:23	<sbalneav> Yep, it was.
23:23	Recently, a month or two ago, people were agitating on the edubuntu lists to "get all the bugs out of LTSP"
23:24	"Only stable release I've had was feisty" one person said.
23:24	<johnny> hmm. that's never been my experience
23:24	<sbalneav> I advertised on the list 2 weeks in advance a bug day on wednesday
23:24	<johnny> all the problems i've had were ubuntu related completely :)
23:24	<sbalneav> "come on by and help me to diagnose your problems", I said.
23:25	"Finally, someone's doing something" people said.
23:25	I took a day off work, and sat on the computer for a whole day.
23:25	Guess how many people showed up
23:25	go on
23:25	guess
23:26	Guessed yet?
23:26	Zero
23:26	nada
23:26	ziltch
23:27	<johnny> so.. why are you saying this?
23:27	* sbalneav sighs
23:27	<johnny> exactly?
23:27	what does it have to do with what i said? :)
23:27	i was blaming ubuntu + gnome :)
23:27	<sbalneav> Didn't say you weren't
23:28	<johnny> ltsp has been great to me :)
23:28	minus the flash network usage issues..
23:28	but nothing you guys can do about that
23:29	<sbalneav> Sure, been great to me too. I'm just venting.
23:30	But, in general, most users don't download and try a distro UNTIL release day
23:30	and by then... it's way, WAY too late.
23:30	<johnny> sbalneav, that's why i like gentoo!
23:30	there is no releae day
23:31	release*
23:31	<dberkholz> we really need to get a new livecd though.
23:31	<johnny> yes
23:31	truly
23:31	<sbalneav> well, there's no release day if you use debian-unstable either.
23:31	<johnny> what's up with the automated builds?
23:31	<dberkholz> some newish hardware doesn't have drivers.
23:31	i dunno, i'm not following that
23:31	<sbalneav> So that's not someting that's unique to gentoo.
23:31	<johnny> sbalneav, gentoo has stable stuff
23:32	<sbalneav> Oh, please. So nothing ever breaks in Gentoo?
23:32	<johnny> oh sure
23:32	obviously
23:32	<warren> sbalneav: Novell is an example of a collaborator
23:32	<johnny> no software is completely
23:32	bug free
23:33	sbalneav, ubuntu has tons of bugs in it's lts releases
23:33	i didn't have a working kernel since gutsy
23:33	until 1 week after intrepid release
23:34	actually i got that out of proposed
23:34	not sure if it is out of proposed yet or not
23:36	every kernel since gutsy had one problem or another.. missing sound drivers, bad network driver, two different breakages of the sata controller.. one that caused the system not to boot, and one that gave it 3mb/s transfer
23:37	<sbalneav> johnny: I really don't want to get into a distro war. Obviously, all distros have their problems. I've used just about every distro at one time or another, and they've all had problems.
23:37	<johnny> sbalneav, no.. not a distro war..
23:37	i'm still using ubuntu on that machine after all
23:38	i'm using fedora10 on this laptop
23:38	and my linode and old desktop run gentoo
23:39	<mistik1> expat upgrade is the last serious problem I want into in gentoo
23:39	<sbalneav> Hey mistik1
23:39	<johnny> yeah.. that was a nasty one
23:39	<mistik1> was a royal pain to get all my machine upgraded
23:39	<johnny> mistik1, they finally have blocker resolution built into portage 2.2
23:39	<mistik1> johnny: so i'm hearing
23:39	<johnny> portage 2.2 is one of the best things to ever happen to gentoo
23:40	since i've been using it
23:40	portage itself didn't really give you much changes in the last 2 years..
23:40	or 3 even
23:40	and now there's a deluge of nice things :)
23:41	<mistik1> johnny: Does 2.2 take better care of the recursive dependency problem of late
23:41	<johnny> mistik1, one of my favorite annoyances was not being able to do emerge world <someotherpackage>
23:41	fixed now :)
23:41	<mistik1> awesome
23:42	I have 5 machines to load in the next couple days so I guess i'll see how it goes :)
23:42	<johnny> mistik1, i'm not sure, i'll test again when there's a stage3 based on portage 2.2
23:42	portage 2.2 is rc14 now
23:42	so it's coming close
23:43	i just hope they can shake out the final bugs in @preserved-rebuild
23:43	mistik1, are you familiar with that?
23:44	basically it stops your system from breaking where you would normally have to run revdep-rebuild right away, and have a somewhat broken system in between...
23:44	<mistik1> no I've not played with that yet
23:44	<johnny> basically.. it leaves the libs lying around
23:44	that other things need
23:45	instead of dropping them right away
23:45	<mistik1> Over the next few weeks i'll be reqriting my install and build environment and will look at all that
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23:45	<mistik1> How would you deal with removing them later?
23:45	<johnny> emerge @preserved-rebuild
23:45	<mistik1> nice
23:46	<johnny> it requires FEATURES="preserved-libs"
23:46	so you can choose what happens..
23:46	without preserved-libs.. it acts just like before
23:46	i'm not sure if it will be in default FEATURES or not yet
23:47	but the goal is to drop revdep-rebuild altogether as a necessary script
23:47	<mistik1> I would not miss it much :)
23:48	<johnny> mistik1, the other nice things are --jobs, --keep-going, and --load-average
23:48	<mistik1> so long, so long and thank you for all the fish :)
23:48	<johnny> so.. for all those annoying tiny packages
23:48	you could run them in parallel
23:49	and if it gets up to --load-average .. it won't launch anymore
23:49	<mistik1> wow, sounds like them guys been hard at work
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23:49	<johnny> and --keep-going.. is for if something fails but other packages are not required, it'll keep going
23:50	thus hopefully stopping most cases of going to bed while your packages are building and finding out that you were on 5 out of xxx still :)
23:50	<mistik1> heh
23:50	been there done that
23:51	I would love to see binary package improvements but maybe that needs some sponsoring
23:51	<johnny> that's actually happening too
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23:51	<mistik1> cool
23:51	<johnny> somebody did a gsoc project on it
23:51	and a tinderboxy project
23:51	<mistik1> awesome man
23:52	<johnny> the folks involved will be able to tell you more.. i'm sure there's a page on gentoo.org somewhere that lists all the gsoc 2008 projects ..
23:52	and you can talk to the folks direcly involved
23:52	<mistik1> I'll definately be checking it out
23:53	<dberkholz> the soc framework project isn't done yet
23:53	<mistik1> I'm in a situation where i'll end up with tons of machines to keep updated and running
23:53	<dberkholz> i'm bugging the guy about that
23:53	if your machines are mostly homogenous, that's already easy
23:54	<johnny> dberkholz, did you get my link about the genkernel config bug?
23:54	<dberkholz> just set the feature to make binpkgs on your build box, and stick the appropriate binpkg host stuff in make.conf on the others
23:54	<johnny> bug/patch
23:54	<dberkholz> johnny: i saw your link, i didn't have a chance to look any further
23:54	<johnny> ok.. look at will
23:54	just making sure you got it
23:55	<dberkholz> the concept seems good
23:56	<johnny> genkernel sure takes awhile to load the drivers in a default initramfs.. i wonder if there is a way to make it work in parallel..