IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.libera.chat (webchat)
Channel log from 11 February 2012 (all times are UTC)
| 00:01 | <vagrantc> for some reason it's hardcoded in client/initramfs-scripts.d/common/00-getltsconffile
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| 00:02 | NBD_ROOT_HOST=server
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| 00:05 | <vagrantc> so that's not going to work
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| 00:06 | we have sure implemented a maze of scripts. :)
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| 00:32 | <vagrantc> looks like i've got some work to do on the debian kiosk plugin
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| 01:20 | <vagrantc> highvoltage: well, i've almost got a few to poke at ltsp-cluster*
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| 01:59 | <vagrantc> stgraber: other than the one issue with NBD_ROOT_HOST=server hardcoded in client/initramfs-scripts.d/common/00-getltsconffile, ltsp-trunk is working for me.
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| 02:00 | although i need to switch to using kioskSession and screen.d/kiosk for my kiosk implementation
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| 02:00 | * vagrantc wonders why kioskSession doesn't create the user on the fly | |
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| 02:06 | <jeffdag> Hi gang, just discovered ltsp recently, been successfully messing with it (on ubuntu) the last 2 days... one thing remains that doesn't fit too well with the way we need to work. Is it possible for the client to export a usb key as a block device instead of files using fuse? Maybe export the raw /dev/sdx using nbd back to the ltsp-server.
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| 02:09 | <vagrantc> jeffdag: it's technically possible, sure. it may have consequences like handling unmounts cleanly and such.
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| 02:24 | <stgraber> vagrantc: cool
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| 02:31 | <vagrantc> stgraber: i'm guessing that the NBD_ROOT_HOST=server breaks lts.conf downloading, or rather, doesn't work.
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| 03:38 | <vagrantc> !ltsp-cluster
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| 03:38 | <ltsp`> vagrantc: Error: "ltsp-cluster" is not a valid command.
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| 03:38 | <vagrantc> !ltsp-cluster-agent
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| 03:38 | <ltsp`> vagrantc: Error: "ltsp-cluster-agent" is not a valid command.
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| 06:10 | <alkisg> Good morning
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| 06:27 | stgraber: I installed the new ltsp-server package, but /etc/ltsp/ltsp-update-image.conf is still there, are all the other changes there, should I go ahead and test, or should I wait for another package?
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| 06:49 | Looking at the fatclients page... After a few releases, it gets messy, with a whole lot of workaround for each release.
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| 06:51 | We should at least remove the comments for unsupported ubuntu versions, but I'd like it even more if we removed all comments for releases before the last released LTS version too. :)
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| 06:52 | OK, running ltsp-build-client...
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| 06:54 | stgraber: does LDM need synching from Debian?
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| 07:34 | <knipwim> alkisg: if i do a mount --rbind /dev/ $root/dev, the dev/pts and dev/shm get mounted also
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| 07:38 | <alkisg> knipwim: sounds good, but I've no idea if there are any cases where people would want to mount dev and not pts, or vice versa
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| 07:39 | I'm ok with always mounting everything... .:D
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| 07:40 | stgraber: also the upstart jobs are still there
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| 07:41 | <knipwim> alkisg: me neither
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| 07:42 | we could always get it back in if such a use case arises
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| 07:42 | <alkisg> If vagrantc agrees, we could also make it the default to mount anything, and if people don't want that, we can provide a single option to not mount those dirs...
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| 07:42 | s/anything/everything
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| 07:43 | <knipwim> a --mount-none :)
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| 07:43 | <alkisg> Yup :)
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| 07:43 | Or even "-d" ==> don't mount /dev, etc
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| 07:43 | To reverse their meanings to "don't mount those"
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| 07:45 | knipwim: if you push the rbind change, then remove the --dev-pts option, I don't think it makes sense then to have both of them. Or at least make the mount-all option not do both of those.
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| 07:47 | <knipwim> check
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| 07:47 | will do that later, and also update the man page
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| 07:48 | when my server boots again
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| 07:48 | <alkisg> knipwim: what is gentoo using? nfs + bindmoutns?
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| 07:48 | <knipwim> yup
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| 07:48 | <alkisg> If vagrantc switches to nfs + tmpfs + aufs, can you switch there too?
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| 07:49 | It'll be easier to assume a completely writeable root
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| 07:50 | <knipwim> is that the new initramfs based boot method?
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| 07:50 | <alkisg> No... it's like that:
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| 07:51 | Previously, nfs had problems with tmpfs+aufs
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| 07:51 | So that's why bindmounts were used, as the last alternative
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| 07:51 | Now it appears that there aren't any problems anymore, as long as the nfs export is indeed read-only
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| 07:51 | So, if, at boot time, one creates a tmpfs,
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| 07:51 | and uses aufs to bind it with the read-only nfs export,
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| 07:52 | then he creates a completely writeable root, with changes stored on the client
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| 07:52 | So there's no need to maintain special bintmounts lists, and scripts can go ahead and write wherever they like without thinking about read-only root
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| 07:52 | vagrantc is thinking of testing that, and if it works ok, switching debian to default to that
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| 07:53 | <knipwim> but aufs is not in the kernel
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| 07:53 | where do you get the module?
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| 07:54 | <alkisg> Ubuntu previously depended on some aufs package, now it uses unionfs
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| 07:55 | Ah no, aufs was included in the ubuntu kernel
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| 07:55 | Let me see if it's included in the debian kernel too...
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| 07:56 | <knipwim> it's not in the gentoo kernel, but in a package
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| 07:56 | install the package and rebuild the kernel
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| 07:56 | <alkisg> Yup, it's there: http://packages.debian.org/squeeze/i386/linux-image-2.6.32-5-486/filelist
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| 07:57 | <knipwim> but i believe it will be doable for gentoo
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| 07:57 | <alkisg> But now Ubuntu started using unionfs, as it's supposed to go mainline in the kernel or something
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| 07:57 | <alkisg> Ah sorry, overlayfs
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| 07:57 | I got the name wrong
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| 07:57 | <knipwim> omg, finally
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| 07:57 | <alkisg> I don't know if that works over nfs+tmpfs
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| 07:57 | <knipwim> some kind of overlayfs in the kernel
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| 07:58 | <alkisg> Yeah..
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| 07:58 | <knipwim> my first ltsp install was with a custom unionfs kernel
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| 07:58 | what a hassle
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| 07:59 | <alkisg> Debating overlayfs - http://lwn.net/Articles/447650/
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| 08:01 | <knipwim> i don't think removing any generic bind mounts code will break gentoo
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| 08:01 | we use our own bind_mounts function in the initscript
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| 08:01 | <alkisg> And you keep your own list for RW_DIRS etc?
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| 08:03 | <knipwim> yup
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| 08:05 | <alkisg> Cool
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| 08:27 | <alkisg> stgraber: the ltsp package in your PPA still doesn't use the new initramfs-scripts.d system, so I can't test anything... we need to decide soon if the new system goes in for Precise or not. If so, we'll need to remove ltsp_nbd and pull in a new NBD package, or at least to patch ltsp_nbd.
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| 11:35 | <knipwim> alkisg: i'm going to commit the devpts remove
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| 11:36 | unless you're busy with a commit spree :)
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| 11:36 | <alkisg> knipwim: hehe no I'm ok
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| 11:36 | I always pull before pushing
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| 11:39 | <knipwim> hmm
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| 11:39 | the mount --rbind's won't unmount
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| 11:40 | with the umount_marked function i think
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| 11:40 | <alkisg> knipwim: let me test...
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| 11:41 | <knipwim> only the explicit mounts are stored, while dev/pts and dev/shm are mounted implicitly
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| 11:41 | might be a way around that
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| 11:41 | the gentoo installer uses /proc/mounts to determine what is mounted on the ltsp chroot
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| 11:42 | so no need to store anything
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| 11:42 | <alkisg> What if someone runs ltsp-chroot twice, in 2 different terminals?
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| 11:43 | Or if someone runs ltsp-chroot while ltsp-build-client is approaching the end of installation...
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| 11:43 | <knipwim> they should exit simultaniously :)
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| 11:43 | but true, no easy fix for those cases
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| 11:43 | <alkisg> I don't know but I don't like the idea of unmounting everything below /opt/ltsp/i386 even if we didn't mount it ourselves
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| 11:45 | <knipwim> perhaps a uniq on the proc/mounts output?
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| 11:47 | the current umount_marked doesn't unmount a specific mount, just the one stored earlier
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| 11:48 | so the second ltsp-chroot on the same chroot holds the same marked_mounts
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| 11:48 | <alkisg> knipwim: err wait I didn't get the idea. So, if we use rbind, then how will we know what it actually mounted, so that we unmount it?
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| 11:49 | (01:48:02 μμ) knipwim: so the second ltsp-chroot on the same chroot holds the same marked_mounts ==> yes, and that's the correct thing to do, isn't it? And each one will unmount the dirs it mounted, even if they're duplicates...
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| 11:50 | <knipwim> so a doing a uniq on /proc/mounts will work also i gather
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| 11:51 | <alkisg> knipwim: that's what I don't get
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| 11:51 | So if a user manually mounts /opt/ltsp/i386/some/dir, will we unmount it?
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| 11:52 | Because it shows up in uniq?
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| 11:52 | <knipwim> each unique mount is available in /proc/mounts, each mount from an ltsp-chroot will show up there seperately
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| 11:52 | ahh, check, i understand
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| 11:53 | using the proc/mounts only accounts for ltsp-chroot
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| 11:53 | not "third-party" mounts
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| 11:53 | <alkisg> Yup
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| 11:53 | <knipwim> never mind then :)
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| 11:53 | <alkisg> :)
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| 11:53 | <knipwim> about the rbind
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| 11:54 | the mount man says it bind mounts the dir, and mounted subdirs
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| 11:54 | <alkisg> Yes if there's no way to "umount --rbind", maybe it doesn't help us
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| 11:54 | <knipwim> the mounted subdirs can be checked on the host system
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| 11:55 | <alkisg> But again "third-party" mounts will be a problem
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| 11:55 | If mount --rbind reported the dirs it actually mounts, that would help
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| 11:56 | <knipwim> perhaps in the case of dev mounts the third-party mounts won't be much of a problem
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| 11:57 | <alkisg> Maybe it'd be saner to do the opposite, i.e. implement rbind ourselves by grepping /proc/mounts to see what else is mounted under /dev,
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| 11:57 | ...but I think I still like the simpler approach of manually mounting /dev/pts in a separate step
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| 11:59 | <knipwim> i coming to think as well
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| 11:59 | mount -v --rbind doesn't show which submounts are done
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| 12:01 | <alkisg> knipwim, so let's simplify only the part where "--mount-dev" means "in ubuntu, mount devpts too, in gentoo mount shm too" etc?
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| 12:01 | I.e. merge the --mount-dev-pts option into --mount-dev?
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| 12:07 | <knipwim> alkisg: gentoo doesn't need the shm i think, didn't need it before at least
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| 12:08 | i can mount the pts by default
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| 12:08 | <alkisg> So it's the same as ubuntu then?
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| 12:08 | Nice
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| 12:08 | <knipwim> within --mount-dev
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| 12:08 | <alkisg> No need for separation between those
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| 12:10 | <knipwim> still, the marked_mounts are umounted in the same order as they're mounted
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| 12:10 | <alkisg> knipwim, no in opposite
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| 12:11 | marked_mounts="newmount $oldmounts" or something
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| 12:11 | The new mount gets in fornt
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| 12:11 | front
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| 12:11 | <knipwim> yes
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| 12:11 | i'm seeing it now
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| 12:12 | nice
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| 16:43 | <markit> hi, anyone expert of epoptes here? server does not start
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| 16:55 | mm solved, I had to purge first
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| 17:37 | <alkisg> What if we used init=/usr/sbin/boot-ltsp instead of using initramfs-scripts.d? We could do a regular NFS or NBD boot, without anything ltsp related, and then create the tmpfs+aufs+everything else there... isn't that much simpler?
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| 17:37 | We could even do that *without* initramfs... I'm guessing that will help in arm
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| 17:39 | <stgraber> alkisg: hey
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| 17:39 | <alkisg> Hi stgraber
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| 17:39 | <stgraber> alkisg: sorry, didn't see you e-mail to ltsp-dev before I replied to you in private ;)
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| 17:39 | <alkisg> You're right, I wasn't using your ppa, I saw that a few minutes after I send you the mail
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| 17:39 | <stgraber> alkisg: you'll have a new nbd in Ubuntu in 5min or so
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| 17:40 | <alkisg> I rebuilded the chroot, and booted the client. It booted, but some services delayed the boot for 1-2 minutes
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| 17:40 | (configure networking... waiting 60 seconds... etc)
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| 17:40 | <stgraber> alkisg: uploaded
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| 17:40 | <alkisg> So we need to grow the RM_SYSTEM_SERVICES list
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| 17:41 | <stgraber> so new ldm and new nbd in a few minutes in Ubuntu
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| 17:41 | <alkisg> stgraber: thanks!
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| 17:42 | <stgraber> alkisg: and I also uploaded a new snapshot of trunk to the PPA, just going to bump the build score now so it builds quickly
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| 17:42 | <alkisg> stgraber: since any of the initramfs-scripts.d stuff hasn't landed yet, I'm really thinking we should rename it to initscripts.d,
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| 17:43 | and use init=/usr/sbin/boot-ltsp
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| 17:43 | That will do the cow stuff, call the initscripts, and then exec /sbin/init
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| 17:43 | <alkisg> No special "ltsp" kernel parameter needed, no boot=ltsp_nbd, nothing
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| 17:43 | We can even do that with the old nbd, afaik
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| 17:44 | I can try it and maybe have it up and working by monday
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| 17:44 | It's not a big change
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| 17:44 | What do you think?
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| 17:44 | <stgraber> right, so the only difference from a regular boot to a LTSP thin client boot would be the added init=/usr/sbin/boot-ltsp?
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| 17:44 | <alkisg> Yup
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| 17:45 | I just tried init=/bin/bash with a regular system, and then exec /sbin/init, and it worked fine
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| 17:45 | <stgraber> that should work, as long as make really sure not to polute the environment or keep anything open, otherwise the exec will likely fail
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| 17:45 | <alkisg> Everything is already mounted at that point
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| 17:45 | So we don't even need to mount --bind /proc etc
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| 17:45 | We just modify/delete a few files, and exec /sbin/init
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| 17:46 | We can even leave the cow mounting in the initramfs, so that it's a smaller change
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| 17:46 | <stgraber> sounds good
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| 17:47 | <alkisg> OK, thanks, I'll do some tests, commit innocent stuff, and talk with you and vagrantc about the init= tests on monday
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| 17:48 | <stgraber> sounds good. Having vagrant's opinion would be nice indeed
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| 17:49 | alkisg: btw, any idea what's going on with the ldm theme? (assuming you also have the issue where you get the ltsp theme and not the ubuntu one)?
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| 17:49 | <alkisg> stgraber: I got the ubuntu theme...
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| 17:49 | ...both on my fat chroot and my thin chroot
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| 17:49 | Both builded today
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| 17:49 | <stgraber> lucky you ;)
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| 17:49 | <alkisg> Hehe
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| 17:50 | <stgraber> ok, I guess I'll test again then, maybe it got fixed at some point in trunk and I didn't see it
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| 17:51 | I'll wait for the new nbd and ldm to be in the archive and for ltsp to be built in the PPA and will get a clean chroot building
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| 18:22 | <alkisg> Yup, init=/sbin/ltsp-init, with contents==`#!/bin/sh; mount -o remount,rw /; rm /etc/init/tty3.conf; mount -o remount,ro /; exec /sbin/init "$@"`, works fine on standalone systems. So the idea seems to be valid.
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| 18:31 | I'm not seeing the ubuntu logo though, I don't know if it affects plymouth somehow.
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| 19:57 | <priyank> Hi i am getting TFTP File not found error
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| 19:58 | and I am not able to boot my thin client
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| 19:58 | <alkisg> Distro/version?
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| 19:58 | <priyank> ubuntu
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| 19:58 | 11.10
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| 19:58 | <alkisg> Version?
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| 19:58 | OK
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| 19:58 | !tftp
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| 19:58 | <ltsp`> alkisg: tftp: Here's a page to help you troubleshoot TFTP problems in Ubuntu: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/Troubleshooting/TFTP
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| 20:03 | <priyank> hi I am not able to guess the problem mind remote desktop?
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| 20:09 | also how to bridge server and thin client
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| 20:12 | alkisg: Please reply
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| 20:16 | <alkisg> priyank: no, I don't have time right now to help you with remote desktop, but I spend a lot of time writing that wiki page to help people with tftp problems, so it'd be nice if you followed that and replied here with what step you're having problems with
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| 20:17 | <priyank> ok thanks
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| 21:54 | <alkisg> Hey vagrantc, got a minute?
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| 21:55 | I was thinking, instead of calling the initramfs-scripts.d from the initramfs with chroot, to put init=/sbin/ltsp-init as a kernel parameter, run the scripts from there, and then exec /sbin/init to continue
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| 21:56 | I tried it and it seems like it's working, except for plymouth disappearing, maybe because it doesn't like "echo"es and prefers log_begin_msg etc instead
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| 21:57 | So, to boot an ltsp chroot as an ltsp chroot, we wouldn't put "ltsp" or other magic kernel parameters, just init=/sbin/ltsp-init
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| 21:57 | And to boot it as a normal system, we'd just remove that
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| 21:58 | If you agree, I'll rename initramfs-scripts to ltsp-init, and initramfs-scripts.d to ltsp-init.d, and will put an `exec /sbin/init` line at the bottom of ltsp-init
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| 21:58 | stgraber thought it sounds good...
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| 22:00 | <vagrantc> oalknot a lot of a minute
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| 22:00 | but messing with init sounds scarey.
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| 22:02 | <alkisg> Everywhere I tried it it worked
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| 22:02 | live cds, normal systems etc
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| 22:03 | What we need is to run some stuff in the real root, before the initscripts start running... isn't that the point if the init= kernel parameter? :D
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| 22:04 | <stgraber> vagrantc: it's basically like chaining a second initramfs, not anymore scary than that ;)
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| 22:05 | <vagrantc> except that the initramfs software we're usinng is thouroughly and widely tested
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| 22:05 | <stgraber> indeed :)
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| 22:05 | <alkisg> ...though the initramfs-scripts.d is widely broken right now... :)
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| 22:05 | <stgraber> in theory there's no risk of execing another script at the end of initramfs (instead of /sbin/init), the exec /sbin/init
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| 22:05 | so long as we make sure not to make any more of a mess than we do in the iniramfs
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| 22:05 | <alkisg> ...so if we're to do extensive tests, I think it's a good time to test both of them
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| 22:06 | <stgraber> mostly thinking of fds/processes/environment
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| 22:06 | <alkisg> The initramfs-scripts.d scripts only mess with files... they don't run daemons or other weird stuff
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| 22:06 | <vagrantc> i got initramfs-scripts.d stuff working great yesterday, just had to patch out the hard-coded NBD_ROOT_HOST
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| 22:06 | <stgraber> alkisg: the fact that this breaks plymouth is a bit concerning though, it shows that "something" is wrong as plymouth shouldn't die when doing another exec
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| 22:07 | <alkisg> In Ubuntu the main breakage come from removing RC_WHITELIST and introducing RM_SYSTEM_SERVICES, I'll try to remove more services, now it waits 60 secs to configure the network etc - at the end it boots
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| 22:08 | stgraber: I did put an "echo" though at the test script... I wonder if plymouth doesn't like that and it prefers the log_begin_msg set of functions...
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| 22:08 | <stgraber> alkisg: you'll actually need to add something instead of removing something to avoid the 60s wait
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| 22:08 | alkisg: initctl emit static-network-up
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| 22:08 | and that'll avoid the 60s
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| 22:09 | <alkisg> OK, I'll give that a try tomorrow
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| 22:09 | <stgraber> needs to be done after upstart is started though
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| 22:09 | <alkisg> The initramfs-scripts.d vs ltsp-init isn't a big change... if I get the rest working smoothly tomorrow, you two can decide if you want to switch to that or not
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| 22:10 | The scripts will be the same in any case
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| 22:10 | stgraber: to minimize the initramfs changes, I'll just put a chroot $rootmnt /usr/share/ltsp/initramfs-scripts at the end of ltsp_nbd
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| 22:10 | <stgraber> sounds good
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| 22:10 | <alkisg> ...and we can explore the new NBD script in 12.10 or later
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| 22:11 | <stgraber> yeah, that way nbd-proxy should still work too ;)
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| 22:11 | (for these who want it)
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| 22:11 | <alkisg> It would work with the new nbd script too,
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| 22:11 | I asked wouter and he put support for an NBDCLIENT env var
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| 22:11 | So with NBDCLIENT=nbd-proxy-wrapper, it would be possible
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| 22:12 | <stgraber> ah cool, yeah, we'd need to write a small wrapper but that'd work
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| 22:12 | <alkisg> it would launch that instead of nbd-client
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| 22:12 | stgraber: since we're doing changes though, and since you pulled the new nbd script, I think we should switch to that new nfs-like syntax that you proposed
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| 22:12 | I.e. nbdroot=server:port/path
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| 22:13 | or nbdroot=[ipv6]:port/path
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| 22:13 | I can do that tomorrow too, if you agree
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| 22:13 | <stgraber> yeah, that'd make sense
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| 22:13 | <alkisg> OK, lots of things for tomorrow then :)
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| 22:14 | Thanks guys, /me goes to bed...
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| 22:17 | * stgraber thinks we'll need quite a few bugfix releases for all that stuff before we can release 12.04 in April ;) | |
| 22:18 | <vagrantc> well, i'm happy with initramfs-scripts.d now.
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