IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.libera.chat (webchat)
Channel log from 28 February 2014 (all times are UTC)
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| 03:22 | <ball> Does ltsp use xdm (and xdmcp)?
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| 18:12 | <hydruid> should /etc/ltsp/dhcpd.conf and /etc/dhcp/dhcpd.conf be the same?
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| 18:13 | I guess I'm not sure why there are 2
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| 18:14 | <hydruid> alkisg: Good afternoon, setting up a new LTSP install, should /etc/ltsp/dhcpd.conf and /etc/dhcp/dhcpd.conf be the same?
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| 18:14 | <vagrantc> hydruid: you can include the ltsp one from the dhcp one
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| 18:15 | hydruid: on ubuntu, i think they've hacked dhcpd to use the ltsp one if present
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| 18:15 | <hydruid> vagrantc: ty for the info!
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| 18:15 | <vagrantc> hydruid: honestly, i think it's confusing how it's set up...
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| 18:16 | though i understand why...
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| 18:16 | <ogra> all my fault :)
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| 18:16 | <hydruid> :P
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| 18:16 | It makes sense now
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| 18:16 | <ogra> i thought stgraber switched it to dnsmasq at some point
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| 18:17 | <hydruid> modify your ltsp dhcp conf file, leave the primary alone
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| 18:17 | <vagrantc> i've definitely preferred dnsmasq lately
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| 18:18 | though it did have some bugs wit multiple simultaneous client boots
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| 18:18 | <alkisg> dnsmasq has issues as a primary dhcp server, it doesn't support parallel pings
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| 18:18 | It's fine for a few clients, or for many clients as a proxydhcp server
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| 18:19 | <vagrantc> nice. i didn't know if proxydhcp had those issues or not
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| 18:19 | <alkisg> We should implement `ltsp-config dhcpd` and call it from postinst, and use the main dhcpd.conf...
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| 18:19 | <vagrantc> yup
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| 18:20 | <alkisg> And really, we should drop the ltsp ubuntu diff...
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| 18:20 | <vagrantc> although i prefer using an include over meging it directly in
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| 18:20 | <alkisg> Or dhcpd.d/ if it supports it... (or file a request for that...)
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| 18:20 | <vagrantc> alkisg: stgraber said he would keep the networ range diff forever
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| 18:20 | alkisg: i filed a patch on dhcpd ages ago to add suport
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| 18:21 | <alkisg> Forever? I thought he said that he'd change it in ltsp6
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| 18:21 | ...when we'll break backwards compatibility for many things anyway...
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| 18:21 | <vagrantc> ah, that'd be good
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| 18:22 | <alkisg> Maybe we can even ship dnsmasq in ltsp6 as the default, and only support dhcpd as an option
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| 18:22 | I.e. recommends: dnsmasq | dhcpd...
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| 18:22 | <vagrantc> an interesting idea
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| 18:23 | i like it
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| 18:23 | <stgraber> yeah, I don't mind breaking the network range with ltsp6
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| 18:23 | <alkisg> stgraber: do you also agree with defaulting to dnsmasq?
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| 18:24 | Big ltsp deployments will need to run "apt-get install ltsp-server-standalone isc-dhcp-server" then
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| 18:24 | ...that should be all the "how to" changes involved to select dhcpd...
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| 18:24 | * alkisg also thinks that big ltsp deployments would have an external dhcp server anyway... | |
| 18:25 | <stgraber> I may not be entirely opposed to this, we'll see.
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| 18:25 | <alkisg> ok
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| 18:25 | <ogra> alkisg, prob with main dhcpd.conf in ubuntu was always the "no questions on upgrades" policy ... its a conffile
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| 18:25 | thats the reason the ltsp/dhcpd.conf exists in the first place
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| 18:25 | <alkisg> dnsmasq.d doesn't have that issue
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| 18:26 | <ogra> it uses .d dirs, no ?
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| 18:26 | <alkisg> Yup. And, we already have the prompt with e.g. nbd-server config
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| 18:26 | <ogra> ouch
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| 18:26 | thats usually an RC bug in ubuntu
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| 18:27 | (but given a member of the release team is the main maintainer of ltsp in ubuntu ... :P )
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| 18:27 | <hydruid> :P
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| 18:27 | <alkisg> nbd-server didn't ship a config file previously, so we generated one. But now it does, and it's not exactly as we create it, hence the prompt
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| 18:28 | <ogra> it should just use .d dirs too and source your config ;)
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| 18:28 | so you just need to move yours around
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| 18:29 | <alkisg> It has a main config and a conf.d/ dir for exports
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| 18:29 | The main config is fine now, we never need to touch it, the problem was that it didn't ship it in the past
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| 18:29 | <ogra> just drop yours in the new package then
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| 18:30 | should prevent the prompt
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| 18:30 | <alkisg> No, it wouldn't
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| 18:30 | We didn't ship it, that would break package installation
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| 18:30 | <ogra> if the package doesnt ship it anymore
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| 18:30 | <alkisg> We created it, so the system thinks that the sysadmin created it
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| 18:30 | <ogra> oh
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| 18:31 | <alkisg> What we can do, is to send an update that checks that file,
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| 18:31 | and if it's exactly as we created it, then to "update" it to be exactly as shipped with the newer nbd-server,
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| 18:31 | so, when later on the newer nbd-server gets installed, it would find the same file and not prompt
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| 18:32 | That would need to be an LTSP SRU for all the previous ubuntu versions
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| 18:32 | ...and I'm not sure if anyone would want to do the paperwork for it :)
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| 18:33 | <ogra> yeah, i assume you will rather get the prompt from nbd-server here anyway
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| 18:35 | <alkisg> A few months ago I've sent the newer nbd-server to 500 schools here. From them, only 2 asked what to do with the prompt... I.e. it's not that important.
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| 18:35 | <ogra> its still a policy violation
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| 18:35 | <alkisg> I haven't seen that policy
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| 18:35 | Maybe you're thinking of postinst actions
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| 18:35 | <ogra> its somewhere on the wiki
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| 18:35 | <alkisg> Not for things the sysadmin runs
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| 18:35 | <ogra> like "no open ports by default on desktop"
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| 18:35 | <alkisg> Like ltsp-config nbd-server
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| 18:36 | Shipping scripts that can change conffiles is not a policy violation
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| 18:36 | <Leolo_3> "New version of the system is available, restarting in 10s" how do I get rid of this?
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| 18:36 | <ogra> i assume LTSP is special enough that you can get through with a release notes entry or so
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| 18:37 | alkisg, no, but causing debconf prompts during upgrades is
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| 18:37 | if your scripts manage to avoid that you are fine
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| 18:37 | <alkisg> ogra: the packaging doesn't do that. The sysadmin does it.
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| 18:37 | <Leolo_3> actaully... wtf is LDM crashing?
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| 18:37 | <alkisg> When he runs `ltsp-update-image` the first time
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| 18:37 | <ogra> how would he know
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| 18:37 | does ltsp-update-image tell him he will get a prompt for that later ?
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| 18:37 | <alkisg> It's not a policy violation to provide executables that change conffiles
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| 18:38 | It's actually the opposite, it's a good thing to provide scripts for that
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| 18:38 | Although in this case, the nbd-server package should ship the script that changes the nbd-server config, not ltsp...
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| 18:38 | <ogra> yes
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| 18:39 | i'm not saying shipping scripts are wrong
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| 18:39 | s/are/is/
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| 18:39 | <alkisg> E.g. think of pam-auth-update
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| 18:40 | <ogra> but if you call it by default due to preseeding (i.e. edubuntu) then it will cause a prompt during upgrade and thus break policy
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| 18:40 | <alkisg> It's not "by default", it's only when the sysadmin selects "F4, build an ltsp server"
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| 18:41 | But anyways, nbd-server now ships a config so we no longer have to worry about that, only the first upgrade will have the problem
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| 18:41 | <ogra> yeah
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| 18:41 | * ogra will leave it to todays maintainers to worry about it :) | |
| 18:43 | <hydruid> This is a way too intensive conversion for a friday
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| 18:44 | *conversation
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| 18:44 | <ogra> heh
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| 18:44 | should we troll a bit instead ?
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| 18:44 | given it is friday
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| 18:44 | <hydruid> definitely
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| 18:44 | lol
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| 18:45 | vagrantc: ty again for the info on the dhcpd.conf's
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| 18:45 | vagrantc: you were correct, ubuntu automatically saw the changes I put into /etc/ltsp/dhcpd.conf
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| 18:48 | <vagrantc> hydruid: glad it hlped
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| 18:48 | editing other packages configuration files in an automated manner is definitely a policy violation
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| 18:49 | on debian
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| 18:49 | providing a script that does it technically complies, but doesn't quite meet the spirit
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| 18:53 | <Leolo_3> good god
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| 18:53 | why am I updating to LTSP 5?
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| 18:54 | LDM keeps crashing. I keep getting "newer version exists" messages
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| 18:54 | <vagrantc> to not be left in 2005?
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| 18:54 | <Leolo_3> 2005 didn't crash
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| 18:54 | <vagrantc> but it is obsolete... anyways
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| 18:55 | <ogra> dead and buried since years and years
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| 18:55 | <Leolo_3> can I get some help with my problems?
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| 18:55 | <vagrantc> basically, there's a hook that checks for a newer nbd image... if that's got issues, you might se the problem you're having
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| 18:55 | <hydruid> Leolo_3: ....you will be assimilated
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| 18:56 | <vagrantc> Leolo_3: you did open with a fairly unanswerable question :p
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| 18:56 | <Leolo_3> Details : CentOS 6 running KVM. LTSP server is KVM vm. Client is also running under KVM (for testing).
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| 18:56 | first off, LDM will randomly segfault when I type in a user name.
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| 18:57 | <hydruid> Leolo_3: is this a new install or existing?
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| 18:57 | <ogra> oh, centos
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| 18:57 | <Leolo_3> ldm-2.2.11-4.el6.x86_64
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| 18:57 | hydruid - fresh install
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| 18:57 | <vagrantc> enslaver did the redhat stuff, but haven't seem em lately
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| 18:57 | <hydruid> Leolo_3: why not go to LTSP 5 then?
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| 18:57 | <Leolo_3> is there a more recent version of ldm?
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| 18:57 | <ogra> yeah, that was quite a while ago
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| 18:58 | <Leolo_3> hydruid - why not? because everything worked and worked well in LTSP 4. I knew how to fix problems.
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| 18:58 | <hydruid> Leolo_3: on CentOS 6 you're going to have all kinds of version conflicts with LTSP 4
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| 18:58 | <vagrantc> 2.2.11 is reasonably current
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| 18:59 | <Leolo_3> hydruid : maybe I missunderstand you, but my understanding was that LTSP 4 was a mini-distro. It ran on the client. It talked X to the server. What conflicts would I get (or do you mean the install scripts?)
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| 18:59 | I'll look into more recent LDM
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| 18:59 | <ogra> ldm isnt your problem, like vagrantc said
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| 18:59 | <Leolo_3> now, other problem - why do I get stuck in a "More recent version exists" loop?
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| 18:59 | <vagrantc> it sounds more likely a configuration problem
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| 19:00 | <Leolo_3> right, so how do I debug that?
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| 19:00 | <vagrantc> it's trying to connect to nbd server, and finding a different image than what you're running
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| 19:00 | <Leolo_3> (also, why is a config problem causing ldm to crash)
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| 19:01 | vagrantc : given that I haven't touched the image in 48 hours, I something else is the problem
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| 19:01 | <vagrantc> Leolo_3: so it was working before?
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| 19:01 | <hydruid> Leolo_3: a config problem is not causing LDM to crash
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| 19:01 | <Leolo_3> and it's a loop - client boots, sees "new" image, reboots, sees "new" image, reboots, sees "new" image
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| 19:02 | <vagrantc> Leolo_3: wel, it technically sees a different image
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| 19:02 | Leolo_3: which it assumes is newer
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| 19:02 | <Leolo_3> ok
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| 19:02 | how do I fix that/
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| 19:02 | <vagrantc> the different image may even being failure to connect
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| 19:02 | so, i'm not at all familiar with centos...
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| 19:03 | <ogra> yeah, you theoretically need to talk to the distro implementer
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| 19:03 | who hasnt been around for quite a while
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| 19:03 | <vagrantc> but basically, you need to figure out if your rootfs is nbd, nfs, aoe, or some other system
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| 19:03 | <Leolo_3> in practice,that's not possible. why would nbd be saying "your image is different" ??
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| 19:03 | <ogra> (which seems to be a common scheme for all fedora/rh/centos ports we have seen
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| 19:03 | )
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| 19:04 | <vagrantc> Leolo_3: also, be a little less confrontational with people who are volunteering their time to help...
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| 19:04 | <ogra> do an initial implementation and let it dangle til it falls apart
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| 19:04 | <hydruid> Leolo_3: you'll have to dig deeper to find out ;)
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| 19:04 | <Leolo_3> ogra - so CentOS is a "bastard" integration of LTSP?
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| 19:05 | <hydruid> Leolo_3: LTSP 5 works fine on CentOS ;)
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| 19:05 | <Leolo_3> actually, what's the advantage of nbd instead of nfs?
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| 19:05 | hydruid - my experience says otherwise
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| 19:05 | <ogra> Leolo_3, no, idea i havent used any rpm based distro in a decade ... but the experience with people porting to one seems ot be that they do an initial port and then drop the ball
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| 19:05 | <vagrantc> Leolo_3: look for /opt/ltsp/i386/usr/share/ldm/rc.d/I01-nbd-checkupdate
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| 19:06 | Leolo_3: though it might be /opt/ltsp/FOO
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| 19:07 | Leolo_3: but that's what's getting triggered, presumably wrongly
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| 19:07 | <Leolo_3> gotcha
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| 19:08 | <hydruid> ogra: do you use ubuntu or debian?
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| 19:08 | <ogra> hydruid, ubuntu
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| 19:09 | <hydruid> ogra: :P
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| 19:09 | * vagrantc waves the debian flag | |
| 19:09 | <hydruid> lol
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| 19:10 | <Leolo_3> glancing at nbd-checkupdate and it looks broken
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| 19:10 | it remounts the nbd image, compares to the currently mounted.
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| 19:10 | <vagrantc> though, interestingly enough i did the first ltsp5 proof-of-concept port for fedora... figuring if a debian developer can get somethig half-baked working, maybe the rest of the community could step up
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| 19:10 | <Leolo_3> but the currently mounted one can be changed during booting, no?
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| 19:11 | <vagrantc> Leolo_3: it doesn't mount it
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| 19:11 | <hydruid> Leolo_3: no
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| 19:11 | <Leolo_3> right, mount is the wrong word
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| 19:11 | <vagrantc> Leolo_3: it's a read-only image, or at least it should be
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| 19:12 | * vagrantc doesn't even know if nbd is used on centos | |
| 19:12 | <ogra> hydruid, but i havent done anything with LTSP for several years (apart from drinking with the devs :) ) ... i did the initial implementation of LTSP 5 though ... nbd and ldm are my fault (though i wouldnt recognize any code of it today anymore)
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| 19:13 | <Leolo_3> ogra - what is the advantage of nbd over nfs?
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| 19:13 | <ogra> Leolo_3, back when i added it it got us a really fast boot
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| 19:13 | <Leolo_3> vagrantc : nbd is there. It is commented out in favour of nfs. But I hate nfs so i thought "anything would be better"
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| 19:13 | <vagrantc> Leolo_3: it assumes nbd0 is root... maybe that's nbd-swap in your setup?
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| 19:14 | <Leolo_3> vagrantc - that makes sense! how would I list nbd? devices?
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| 19:14 | <vagrantc> Leolo_3: so it works when you use NFS?
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| 19:14 | <Leolo_3> haven't tried
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| 19:14 | <ogra> Leolo_3, 3min vs 20-30sec back then with nbd vs nfs ... i dont think thats the case today anymore though ... nbd has the advantage that you can use comporessed images to save bandwith though
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| 19:14 | <vagrantc> it worked before?
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| 19:15 | NBD is still a lot faster than NFS
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| 19:15 | nfs is a very talkative protocol
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| 19:15 | <Leolo_3> in general, LTSP 4 was much faster then LTSP 5
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| 19:15 | <ogra> and a pain to maintain
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| 19:15 | <vagrantc> although loading an image file over NS seems to fix about 80-90% of the speed difference
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| 19:16 | <Leolo_3> true
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| 19:16 | <vagrantc> and ordeal to maintain
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| 19:16 | NFS image files are the best of both options, in my opinion
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| 19:16 | <Leolo_3> in the client, I want to see where /dev/nbd0 and /dev/nbd1 are mounted. but mount isn't giving me anything useful
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| 19:17 | <vagrantc> i think nbd-client can be used to display connection info
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| 19:17 | <Leolo_3> wait, I don't have any swap, so that's a non-issue
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| 19:18 | <vagrantc> oh, are you using port-base or name-based NBD?
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| 19:18 | <Leolo_3> port-based
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| 19:19 | <vagrantc> i've not messed with port-based stuff for at least a year or two...
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| 19:19 | <Leolo_3> ok, nbd0 is going to port 2000. which is nbdrootd, serving up /opt/ltsp-5.4/images/i386.img
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| 19:19 | <vagrantc> it might be trying to connect to a name-based export, hence the difference
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| 19:19 | <Leolo_3> and that file is never. ever. changing
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| 19:20 | <vagrantc> the shasum on a cnnectin refused will always be different
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| 19:20 | that's my current hunch
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| 19:23 | Leolo_3: i'd recommend switching to named exports...
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| 19:26 | <Leolo_3> I'm running I01-nbd-checkupdate by hand on the client and it's not being refused
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| 19:30 | <vagrantc> Leolo_3: the other thing is to simply disable that script
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| 19:30 | <Leolo_3> true
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| 19:31 | <vagrantc> probably doesn't have the environment variables set, so it'd just exit
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| 19:31 | <Leolo_3> switching to name-based. how do I tell the client to use name not port?
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| 19:32 | <alkisg> If you press cancel on that dialog, do you continue to the login prompt?
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| 19:32 | <vagrantc> that is likely to be distro specific
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| 19:32 | <Leolo_3> option root-path "nbd:10.104.0.3:2000:squashfs:ro";
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| 19:32 | I have to tweak that :-)
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| 19:33 | <vagrantc> i have no idea how to tell dracut to se named exports
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| 19:35 | <Leolo_3> I strongly suspect you can't
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| 19:35 | at least, not with the dracut that comes with CentOS 6
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| 19:36 | <vagrantc> we need more active redhat/fedora maintainers :(
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| 19:38 | while it's not my personal preference, i think it's important for ltsp to be well supported on most major distros
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| 20:05 | <Leolo_3> here's a question : why develop nbd when tftpd does nearly the samething?
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| 20:07 | ok, root via NFS isn't noticably slower. I don't get the "new version" loop. But LDM is still crashing
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| 20:07 | sometimes crashing
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| 20:19 | a thought occurs to me - why even bother with LDM? I could set up XDM and I know that works well
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| 20:41 | <vagrantc> tftp and nbd are entirely different
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| 20:42 | ldm was implemented to support local devices, sound, local apps, remote apps, and probably some other features i'm not remembering
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| 20:43 | tftp downloads the entire file, nbd allows you do download individual blocks as needed, and access them as if they were a local device
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| 20:44 | Leolo_3: and ldm is sometimes working?
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| 20:44 | Leolo_3: what are the specs on the thin clients like?
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| 20:45 | <Leolo_3> configure.ac:38: error: possibly undefined macro: AM_GLIB_GNU_GETTEXT
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| 20:45 | vagrantc - the "default" thin client is a Fit PC2
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| 20:46 | but there are many other things
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| 20:48 | <vagrantc> Leolo_3: what sort of cpu and ram, mainly
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| 20:48 | Leolo_3: it's failin to build, or you're saying it spits out that error when running it?
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| 20:49 | <Leolo_3> Atom 1.6Ghz 1GB
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| 20:50 | <vagrantc> ok, so it's probably not running out of ram...
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| 20:52 | <Leolo_3> (but I'm not currently running on a Fit)
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| 20:54 | my test VM has 1GB also
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| 21:07 | <Leolo_3> it only seg faults some times. the segfault happens after I type in the username
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| 21:07 | (btw, on the fone talking about other projets is why nothing is moving)
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| 21:21 | (btw, on the fone talking about other projets is why nothing is moving)
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| 21:21 | oops
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