IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.libera.chat (webchat)
Channel log from 29 September 2021 (all times are UTC)
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| 03:24 | <eu^273447240> Hey there, yes, it was libvirt that was causing the issue. Removing the `bind-interface` from the dnsmasq config file fixed the issue
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| 03:26 | Now, there's one thing that seems peculiar to me... the clients don't have proper time set. `ntpdate` on the clients says "No servers can be used". I wonder if there is something I can do to fix that... presumably in `ltsp.conf` so that I don't have to fix that everywhere? I vaguely remember something about configuring a ntp server on the ltsp
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| 03:26 | server and having clients point to that. But I don't know how to go about doing this.
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| 03:27 | <alkisg> Do the clients have Internet access?
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| 03:27 | <eu^273447240> Not to the outside internet, no.
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| 03:27 | just the LAN
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| 03:28 | <alkisg> Then you do need a local ntp server
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| 03:28 | Google that part, its not related to LTSP
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| 03:28 | <eu^273447240> so.. I just install `openntpd` and that should do the trick? I don't need to configure anything on the LTSP end?
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| 03:30 | <alkisg> You need to configure systemd in the client image to use your ntp server
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| 03:31 | <eu^273447240> Ah that makes sense. Thank you. (I was wondering if there was some magic environment variable that I could use in `ltsp.conf`)
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| 04:33 | <alkisg> !learn nickname as To help us remember your use case and offer you better support, set a nickname with: /nick username
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| 04:33 | <ltspbot> The operation succeeded.
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| 04:34 | <alkisg> I should probably remove the auto-generated eu* nicknames...
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| 06:45 | <vsuojanen> is there any problem from ltsp if one configures /etc/ltsp/ltsp.conf access rights root:root 600 ?
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| 06:46 | <alkisg> vsuojanen: no, although the default 660 with root:sudo ownership sounds better, doesn't it?
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| 06:46 | Sudoers will be able to edit that file anyway, so why not make it group-owned, to be able to edit it with e.g. gedit without running sudo
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| 06:46 | !ltsp.conf
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| 06:46 | <ltspbot> ltsp.conf: Configuration file for LTSP: https://ltsp.org/man/ltsp.conf/
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| 06:46 | <vsuojanen> sure. thanks
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| 06:47 | <alkisg> The installation command is there ^
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| 06:50 | <vsuojanen> that's default perfect actually
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| 14:04 | <alkisg> Yey, I installed epoptes-client in arch linux for the first time! https://aur.archlinux.org/pkgbase/epoptes-client/
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| 14:05 | I'll import their one-line fix that they have in that AUR site...
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| 14:06 | * MUHWALT follows intently | |
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| 19:50 | <alkisg> vagrantc: heya! I'm reviewing the vnc viewers. Currently we default to tigervnc, which is the worse of all
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| 19:51 | Currently we have: xvnc4viewer | tigervnc-viewer | ssvnc | vnc-viewer
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| 19:52 | I'm thinking to switch that to: realvnc-vnc-viewer | xvnc4viewer | ssvnc | xtightvncviewer | tigervnc-viewer | vnc-viewer
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| 19:52 | And I wouldn't mind completely omitting tigervnc, but OK let's leave it so that we show that we tested it
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| 19:53 | ssvnc supports scaling, but unfortunately pulls default-jre. I'll make a note in the installation page that those that want to avoid it, should `apt install --no-install-recommends ssvncviewer` before installing epoptes-client
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| 19:55 | <vagrantc> whatever works :)
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| 19:55 | <alkisg> I noted the tigervnc drawbacks there: https://github.com/Epoptes/epoptes/issues/22#issuecomment-930179333
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| 19:55 | <vagrantc> when you say we default to tigervnc, what do you mean ... it looks like it prefers xvnc4view ?
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| 19:55 | er
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| 19:55 | <alkisg> OK, switching to the new line there :)
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| 19:56 | <vagrantc> ah, xvnc4viewer just depends on tigervnc
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| 19:56 | <alkisg> That's not available on debian
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| 19:56 | It's only there for the greek schools ppa
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| 19:56 | It's been removed a couple of releases ago
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| 19:57 | Ouch, then I should probably put it after ssvnc :D
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| 19:57 | <MUHWALT> +1 for something that supports scaling :D
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| 19:58 | -1 for anything that depends on a JRE D:
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| 19:58 | <vagrantc> alkisg: maybe it would be good to have a matrix of all the various considered viewers and their pros and cons ? e.g. available in Debian X, etc.
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| 19:58 | <alkisg> It recommends it because it's using it for ftp transfers
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| 19:58 | It can be installed without it
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| 19:58 | There's a bug in ssvnc and scaling won't work fullscreen, unless one presses f9 two times (=windowed and then fullscreen again)
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| 19:59 | I'll file it later on...
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| 19:59 | vagrantc: the other distros only have tigervnc and neatvnc
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| 20:00 | <vagrantc> realvnc-vnc-viewer doesn't appear to be in debian
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| 20:00 | <alkisg> But.. they're not using epoptes a lot. There's an arch package and once upon a time there was an opensuse package
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| 20:00 | realvnc-vnc-viewer is the proprietary one
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| 20:00 | <vagrantc> ah
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| 20:00 | <alkisg> If one has it already installed somehow (like raspbian), then we should prefer it
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| 20:00 | As it supports everything, scaling etc etc
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| 20:01 | <vagrantc> it should be lower in the dependency chain, then
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| 20:01 | as, if it's already installed, it won't install one of the others
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| 20:01 | <alkisg> It's available in the raspbian repositories, let me check...
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| 20:02 | <vagrantc> and if it provides: vnc-viewer, it wouldn't need to be explicitly listed at all if it's preinstalled
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| 20:02 | obviously, the code can do it's own internal rules to detect which to use however it wants
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| 20:03 | <alkisg> If realvnc is available in the repositories, we want to prefer it, right? So we put it first...
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| 20:03 | (which normally is not)
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| 20:04 | 500 http://archive.raspberrypi.org/debian buster/main arm64 Packages
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| 20:04 | Raspbian has it in its repositories
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| 20:04 | <vagrantc> ah, you mean it's not preinstalled, but it's in the repositories
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| 20:04 | <alkisg> Yes
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| 20:04 | And if we could get redistribution access, I'd put it in the internal greek school ppa too (not the public one)
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| 20:05 | <vagrantc> a little bad form to have a preferred one that isn't even in debian, but ... i think it's technically allowed these days
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| 20:05 | <alkisg> So in those cases, I'd like `apt install epoptes` to do the right thing
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| 20:05 | 👍️
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| 20:05 | <vagrantc> there was some policy change regarding that a while ago
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| 20:05 | <alkisg> And I guess I'll lower xvnc4viewer to just above tigervnc, since for most people not using the ppa it'll just be a transitional package, if at all...
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| 20:06 | A transitional package is still preferred by apt over the next one, right?
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| 20:07 | <vagrantc> hrm. technically a policy violation, only allowed as a non-default alternative dependency
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| 20:09 | <alkisg> What does "non-default" mean in this context?
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| 20:09 | <vagrantc> https://www.debian.org/doc/debian-policy/ch-archive.html#the-main-archive-area
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| 20:09 | <alkisg> I'm thinking of this:
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| 20:09 | realvnc-vnc-viewer | ssvncviewer | xtightvncviewer | xvnc4viewer | tigervnc-viewer | vnc-viewer
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| 20:09 | <vagrantc> alkisg: it can't be the first in the list
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| 20:09 | alkisg: and comply with policy...
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| 20:10 | <alkisg> And I'm OK if we completely remove xvnc4viewer from there, since it provides vnc-viewer anyway (the old package)
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| 20:10 | Ah, so NOW we're breaking the policy, and we'll fix it with tomorrow's commit, nice :)
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| 20:10 | <vagrantc> xvnc4viewer is a meta-package that depends on tighervnc-viewer, so it's not breaking policy :P
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| 20:11 | except with fewer typos
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| 20:11 | <alkisg> Ah you mean that realvnc will break the policy, right?
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| 20:12 | <vagrantc> right
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| 20:12 | <alkisg> If it's the first one...
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| 20:12 | <vagrantc> at least, that's my reading of it
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| 20:13 | there may be a corner-case argument here if realvnc-vnc-viewer isn't in contrib or non-free ... but ... really, the first dependency should be in debian "main"
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| 20:13 | <alkisg> I think so too. Can you look the other way for a bit, so that I go ahead and commit it anyway? :D
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| 20:14 | Although, I could argue that it's in main for raspbian :D
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| 20:14 | (I've no idea why they're not using a 'non-free' section there...)
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| 20:14 | <vagrantc> alkisg: that would be a very weak argument :P
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| 20:15 | alkisg: can have distro-specific dependencies ... it should be possible to detect raspbian
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| 20:17 | <alkisg> Nah I don't care that much about raspbian, I think it even has it preinstalled so it won't matter,
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| 20:17 | but in case we could get a redistribution license and put it in an internal repository, I'd like people to be able to install epoptes from synaptic without using a terminal...
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| 20:17 | (and without having to read a wiki page that tells them to install realvnc first in a separate step)
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| 20:18 | Anyways, OK, I'll respect the policy :)
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| 20:18 | <vagrantc> so, for a moment, let's pretend realvnc-vnc-viewer doesn't exist ... what would the dependency chain look like then?
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| 20:18 | <alkisg> My current one is: ssvncviewer | realvnc-vnc-viewer | xtightvncviewer | xvnc4viewer | tigervnc-viewer | vnc-viewer
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| 20:19 | And the installation instructions say "if you want to avoid default-jre, use apt install --no-install-recommends ssvncviewer first"
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| 20:19 | <vagrantc> ssnvcviewer having the downside of pulling in default-jre ?
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| 20:19 | but otherwise being preferred
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| 20:19 | <alkisg> Yes
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| 20:19 | Yes
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| 20:20 | Java is only used for ultravnc-compatible file transfers. I don't know if anyone's using that. I hope it was just "suggests" instead...
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| 20:20 | <vagrantc> do all of the others Provide: vnc-viewer ?
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| 20:20 | ah, it's a recommends?
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| 20:21 | ssvncviewer recommends default-jre ?
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| 20:21 | <alkisg> Yes
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| 20:21 | Except for realvnc, all the others provide vnc-viewer
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| 20:21 | Yes, it recommends default-jre
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| 20:21 | <vagrantc> it's apparently called "ssvnc" in debian
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| 20:22 | <alkisg> Yeah sorry ssvncviewer is the binary
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| 20:25 | In bullseye, xvnc4viewer doesn't exist at all, so yeah currently we're breaking the policy
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| 20:26 | It did exist as a transitional package up to buster
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| 20:30 | <vagrantc> oh, you're right
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| 20:30 | that's what i get for having multiple distributions defined in my sources :)
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| 20:30 | it's a soft break, but yeah
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| 20:31 | ssvnc | realvnc-vnc-viewer | xtightvncviewer | tigervnc-viewer | vnc-viewer ?
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| 20:32 | or do you want to leave xvnc4viewer in there somewhere?
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| 20:34 | <alkisg> It would only make sense to put it there if it's the actual package, not the transitional one, let me see the versions..
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| 20:34 | 4.1.1+X4.3.0+t-1 => transitional
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| 20:34 | 4.1.1+xorg4.3.0-37.3ubuntu2 => good one (and of course older ones)
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| 20:36 | dpkg --compare-versions '4.1.1+X4.3.0+t-1' '>=' '4.1.1+xorg4.3.0-37.3ubuntu2' && echo yes
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| 20:36 | ...it doesn't echo anything, am I using it correctly?
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| 20:37 | <vagrantc> ge instead of >= ?
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| 20:38 | <alkisg> The same, no output
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| 20:39 | <vagrantc> reduce the versions down and see where they diverge
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| 20:41 | it's at the +X vs. +x i have no idea what the logic is there
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| 20:51 | dpkg --compare-versions '4.1.1+X' eq '4.1.1+x' ; echo $? ... and try for lt and gt ... surprising
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| 20:53 | <alkisg> I think it's related to their ascii ord()
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| 20:54 | <vagrantc> you sure found a challenging example :)
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| 20:54 | <alkisg> ssvnc | realvnc-vnc-viewer | xvnc4viewer > 4.1.1+x | xtightvncviewer | tigervnc-viewer | vnc-viewer,
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| 20:55 | That will only make sense in newer versions though... meh, no I don't like it
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| 20:55 | <vagrantc> ah, you want to specify the version to prefer xtightvncviewer over tigervnc-viewer...
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| 20:55 | <alkisg> Yes, the xvnc4viewer there should mean the real package, not the transitional one
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| 20:56 | So that the real xvnc4viewer is preferred over xtightvnc
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| 20:58 | Anyway if that ^ one is acceptable, I'll leave it at that, since noone will install the new epoptes in ubuntu 12.04 or debian jessie anyway...
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| 20:59 | On the other hand, since ssvnc will exist... what's the point in specifying all of these... :D
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| 20:59 | So maybe just: ssvnc | realvnc-vnc-viewer | vnc-viewer,
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| 21:01 | <vagrantc> alkisg: minor point would be to give people a clue as to which ones are supported ... are there packages that "Provides: vnc-viewer" that aren't actually supported by epoptes ?
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| 21:01 | alkisg: but yeah, trim the list if you can :)
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| 21:01 | <alkisg> I think there are a couple of xxx-java ones that I didn't bother testing
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| 21:02 | vnc-java and tightvnc-java
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| 21:03 | <vagrantc> these are called with vnc-viewer, which is in /etc/alternatives/vnc-viewer or something?
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| 21:04 | <alkisg> Let me fire up a newer debian to run `apt -s install vnc-viewer`; these results were from ubuntu 20.04,but jessie doesn't have them...
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| 21:04 | <vagrantc> e.g. is there some generic interface that epoptes calls, or should we drop vnc-viewer entirely and only list supported ones?
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| 21:05 | <alkisg> I think vnc-viewer means some kind of standard, compatible with the old realvnc from 2005 (=xvnc4viewer)
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| 21:05 | <vagrantc> i may not have strong opinions on this subject, but i sure have a lot of questions :)
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| 21:05 | <alkisg> If so, then yeah we support anything that is registered in update-alternatives --config vncviewer
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| 21:05 | <vagrantc> yes, but programatically, how does epoptes call a vnc-viewer that it doesn't have explicit support for?
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| 21:06 | got it
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| 21:06 | <alkisg> -shared -listen
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| 21:06 | That's all it needs
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| 21:06 | The symlink is the same, at /usr/bin/vncviewer
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| 21:06 | While for others like ssvnc, it adds more stuff like `-scale auto`
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| 21:07 | bullseye-kde VM launching... :D
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| 21:12 | Hrm, tightvnc-java does register itself as a vncviewer alternative, but it doesn't even declare java as a dependency :D
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| 21:12 | And it doesn't support listen, so we cannot support that one
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| 21:12 | So maybe the specific list has a point after all
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| 21:17 | Whoops it's past my bed time. Gn! :)
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| 21:19 | * vagrantc waves | |