IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.libera.chat (webchat)


Channel log from 29 September 2021   (all times are UTC)

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03:24
<eu^273447240>
Hey there, yes, it was libvirt that was causing the issue. Removing the `bind-interface` from the dnsmasq config file fixed the issue
03:26
Now, there's one thing that seems peculiar to me... the clients don't have proper time set. `ntpdate` on the clients says "No servers can be used". I wonder if there is something I can do to fix that... presumably in `ltsp.conf` so that I don't have to fix that everywhere? I vaguely remember something about configuring a ntp server on the ltsp
03:26
server and having clients point to that. But I don't know how to go about doing this.
03:27
<alkisg>
Do the clients have Internet access?
03:27
<eu^273447240>
Not to the outside internet, no.
03:27
just the LAN
03:28
<alkisg>
Then you do need a local ntp server
03:28
Google that part, its not related to LTSP
03:28
<eu^273447240>
so.. I just install `openntpd` and that should do the trick? I don't need to configure anything on the LTSP end?
03:30
<alkisg>
You need to configure systemd in the client image to use your ntp server
03:31
<eu^273447240>
Ah that makes sense. Thank you. (I was wondering if there was some magic environment variable that I could use in `ltsp.conf`)
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04:33
<alkisg>
!learn nickname as To help us remember your use case and offer you better support, set a nickname with: /nick username
04:33
<ltspbot>
The operation succeeded.
04:34
<alkisg>
I should probably remove the auto-generated eu* nicknames...
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06:45
<vsuojanen>
is there any problem from ltsp if one configures /etc/ltsp/ltsp.conf access rights root:root 600 ?
06:46
<alkisg>
vsuojanen: no, although the default 660 with root:sudo ownership sounds better, doesn't it?
06:46
Sudoers will be able to edit that file anyway, so why not make it group-owned, to be able to edit it with e.g. gedit without running sudo
06:46
!ltsp.conf
06:46
<ltspbot>
ltsp.conf: Configuration file for LTSP: https://ltsp.org/man/ltsp.conf/
06:46
<vsuojanen>
sure. thanks
06:47
<alkisg>
The installation command is there ^
06:50
<vsuojanen>
that's default perfect actually
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14:04
<alkisg>
Yey, I installed epoptes-client in arch linux for the first time! https://aur.archlinux.org/pkgbase/epoptes-client/
14:05
I'll import their one-line fix that they have in that AUR site...
14:06* MUHWALT follows intently
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19:50
<alkisg>
vagrantc: heya! I'm reviewing the vnc viewers. Currently we default to tigervnc, which is the worse of all
19:51
Currently we have: xvnc4viewer | tigervnc-viewer | ssvnc | vnc-viewer
19:52
I'm thinking to switch that to: realvnc-vnc-viewer | xvnc4viewer | ssvnc | xtightvncviewer | tigervnc-viewer | vnc-viewer
19:52
And I wouldn't mind completely omitting tigervnc, but OK let's leave it so that we show that we tested it
19:53
ssvnc supports scaling, but unfortunately pulls default-jre. I'll make a note in the installation page that those that want to avoid it, should `apt install --no-install-recommends ssvncviewer` before installing epoptes-client
19:55
<vagrantc>
whatever works :)
19:55
<alkisg>
I noted the tigervnc drawbacks there: https://github.com/Epoptes/epoptes/issues/22#issuecomment-930179333
19:55
<vagrantc>
when you say we default to tigervnc, what do you mean ... it looks like it prefers xvnc4view ?
19:55
er
19:55
<alkisg>
OK, switching to the new line there :)
19:56
<vagrantc>
ah, xvnc4viewer just depends on tigervnc
19:56
<alkisg>
That's not available on debian
19:56
It's only there for the greek schools ppa
19:56
It's been removed a couple of releases ago
19:57
Ouch, then I should probably put it after ssvnc :D
19:57
<MUHWALT>
+1 for something that supports scaling :D
19:58
-1 for anything that depends on a JRE D:
19:58
<vagrantc>
alkisg: maybe it would be good to have a matrix of all the various considered viewers and their pros and cons ? e.g. available in Debian X, etc.
19:58
<alkisg>
It recommends it because it's using it for ftp transfers
19:58
It can be installed without it
19:58
There's a bug in ssvnc and scaling won't work fullscreen, unless one presses f9 two times (=windowed and then fullscreen again)
19:59
I'll file it later on...
19:59
vagrantc: the other distros only have tigervnc and neatvnc
20:00
<vagrantc>
realvnc-vnc-viewer doesn't appear to be in debian
20:00
<alkisg>
But.. they're not using epoptes a lot. There's an arch package and once upon a time there was an opensuse package
20:00
realvnc-vnc-viewer is the proprietary one
20:00
<vagrantc>
ah
20:00
<alkisg>
If one has it already installed somehow (like raspbian), then we should prefer it
20:00
As it supports everything, scaling etc etc
20:01
<vagrantc>
it should be lower in the dependency chain, then
20:01
as, if it's already installed, it won't install one of the others
20:01
<alkisg>
It's available in the raspbian repositories, let me check...
20:02
<vagrantc>
and if it provides: vnc-viewer, it wouldn't need to be explicitly listed at all if it's preinstalled
20:02
obviously, the code can do it's own internal rules to detect which to use however it wants
20:03
<alkisg>
If realvnc is available in the repositories, we want to prefer it, right? So we put it first...
20:03
(which normally is not)
20:04
500 http://archive.raspberrypi.org/debian buster/main arm64 Packages
20:04
Raspbian has it in its repositories
20:04
<vagrantc>
ah, you mean it's not preinstalled, but it's in the repositories
20:04
<alkisg>
Yes
20:04
And if we could get redistribution access, I'd put it in the internal greek school ppa too (not the public one)
20:05
<vagrantc>
a little bad form to have a preferred one that isn't even in debian, but ... i think it's technically allowed these days
20:05
<alkisg>
So in those cases, I'd like `apt install epoptes` to do the right thing
20:05
👍️
20:05
<vagrantc>
there was some policy change regarding that a while ago
20:05
<alkisg>
And I guess I'll lower xvnc4viewer to just above tigervnc, since for most people not using the ppa it'll just be a transitional package, if at all...
20:06
A transitional package is still preferred by apt over the next one, right?
20:07
<vagrantc>
hrm. technically a policy violation, only allowed as a non-default alternative dependency
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20:09
<alkisg>
What does "non-default" mean in this context?
20:09
<vagrantc>
https://www.debian.org/doc/debian-policy/ch-archive.html#the-main-archive-area
20:09
<alkisg>
I'm thinking of this:
20:09
realvnc-vnc-viewer | ssvncviewer | xtightvncviewer | xvnc4viewer | tigervnc-viewer | vnc-viewer
20:09
<vagrantc>
alkisg: it can't be the first in the list
20:09
alkisg: and comply with policy...
20:10
<alkisg>
And I'm OK if we completely remove xvnc4viewer from there, since it provides vnc-viewer anyway (the old package)
20:10
Ah, so NOW we're breaking the policy, and we'll fix it with tomorrow's commit, nice :)
20:10
<vagrantc>
xvnc4viewer is a meta-package that depends on tighervnc-viewer, so it's not breaking policy :P
20:11
except with fewer typos
20:11
<alkisg>
Ah you mean that realvnc will break the policy, right?
20:12
<vagrantc>
right
20:12
<alkisg>
If it's the first one...
20:12
<vagrantc>
at least, that's my reading of it
20:13
there may be a corner-case argument here if realvnc-vnc-viewer isn't in contrib or non-free ... but ... really, the first dependency should be in debian "main"
20:13
<alkisg>
I think so too. Can you look the other way for a bit, so that I go ahead and commit it anyway? :D
20:14
Although, I could argue that it's in main for raspbian :D
20:14
(I've no idea why they're not using a 'non-free' section there...)
20:14
<vagrantc>
alkisg: that would be a very weak argument :P
20:15
alkisg: can have distro-specific dependencies ... it should be possible to detect raspbian
20:17
<alkisg>
Nah I don't care that much about raspbian, I think it even has it preinstalled so it won't matter,
20:17
but in case we could get a redistribution license and put it in an internal repository, I'd like people to be able to install epoptes from synaptic without using a terminal...
20:17
(and without having to read a wiki page that tells them to install realvnc first in a separate step)
20:18
Anyways, OK, I'll respect the policy :)
20:18
<vagrantc>
so, for a moment, let's pretend realvnc-vnc-viewer doesn't exist ... what would the dependency chain look like then?
20:18
<alkisg>
My current one is: ssvncviewer | realvnc-vnc-viewer | xtightvncviewer | xvnc4viewer | tigervnc-viewer | vnc-viewer
20:19
And the installation instructions say "if you want to avoid default-jre, use apt install --no-install-recommends ssvncviewer first"
20:19
<vagrantc>
ssnvcviewer having the downside of pulling in default-jre ?
20:19
but otherwise being preferred
20:19
<alkisg>
Yes
20:19
Yes
20:20
Java is only used for ultravnc-compatible file transfers. I don't know if anyone's using that. I hope it was just "suggests" instead...
20:20
<vagrantc>
do all of the others Provide: vnc-viewer ?
20:20
ah, it's a recommends?
20:21
ssvncviewer recommends default-jre ?
20:21
<alkisg>
Yes
20:21
Except for realvnc, all the others provide vnc-viewer
20:21
Yes, it recommends default-jre
20:21
<vagrantc>
it's apparently called "ssvnc" in debian
20:22
<alkisg>
Yeah sorry ssvncviewer is the binary
20:25
In bullseye, xvnc4viewer doesn't exist at all, so yeah currently we're breaking the policy
20:26
It did exist as a transitional package up to buster
20:30
<vagrantc>
oh, you're right
20:30
that's what i get for having multiple distributions defined in my sources :)
20:30
it's a soft break, but yeah
20:31
ssvnc | realvnc-vnc-viewer | xtightvncviewer | tigervnc-viewer | vnc-viewer ?
20:32
or do you want to leave xvnc4viewer in there somewhere?
20:34
<alkisg>
It would only make sense to put it there if it's the actual package, not the transitional one, let me see the versions..
20:34
4.1.1+X4.3.0+t-1 => transitional
20:34
4.1.1+xorg4.3.0-37.3ubuntu2 => good one (and of course older ones)
20:36
dpkg --compare-versions '4.1.1+X4.3.0+t-1' '>=' '4.1.1+xorg4.3.0-37.3ubuntu2' && echo yes
20:36
...it doesn't echo anything, am I using it correctly?
20:37
<vagrantc>
ge instead of >= ?
20:38
<alkisg>
The same, no output
20:39
<vagrantc>
reduce the versions down and see where they diverge
20:41
it's at the +X vs. +x i have no idea what the logic is there
20:51
dpkg --compare-versions '4.1.1+X' eq '4.1.1+x' ; echo $? ... and try for lt and gt ... surprising
20:53
<alkisg>
I think it's related to their ascii ord()
20:54
<vagrantc>
you sure found a challenging example :)
20:54
<alkisg>
ssvnc | realvnc-vnc-viewer | xvnc4viewer > 4.1.1+x | xtightvncviewer | tigervnc-viewer | vnc-viewer,
20:55
That will only make sense in newer versions though... meh, no I don't like it
20:55
<vagrantc>
ah, you want to specify the version to prefer xtightvncviewer over tigervnc-viewer...
20:55
<alkisg>
Yes, the xvnc4viewer there should mean the real package, not the transitional one
20:56
So that the real xvnc4viewer is preferred over xtightvnc
20:58
Anyway if that ^ one is acceptable, I'll leave it at that, since noone will install the new epoptes in ubuntu 12.04 or debian jessie anyway...
20:59
On the other hand, since ssvnc will exist... what's the point in specifying all of these... :D
20:59
So maybe just: ssvnc | realvnc-vnc-viewer | vnc-viewer,
21:01
<vagrantc>
alkisg: minor point would be to give people a clue as to which ones are supported ... are there packages that "Provides: vnc-viewer" that aren't actually supported by epoptes ?
21:01
alkisg: but yeah, trim the list if you can :)
21:01
<alkisg>
I think there are a couple of xxx-java ones that I didn't bother testing
21:02
vnc-java and tightvnc-java
21:03
<vagrantc>
these are called with vnc-viewer, which is in /etc/alternatives/vnc-viewer or something?
21:04
<alkisg>
Let me fire up a newer debian to run `apt -s install vnc-viewer`; these results were from ubuntu 20.04,but jessie doesn't have them...
21:04
<vagrantc>
e.g. is there some generic interface that epoptes calls, or should we drop vnc-viewer entirely and only list supported ones?
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21:05
<alkisg>
I think vnc-viewer means some kind of standard, compatible with the old realvnc from 2005 (=xvnc4viewer)
21:05
<vagrantc>
i may not have strong opinions on this subject, but i sure have a lot of questions :)
21:05
<alkisg>
If so, then yeah we support anything that is registered in update-alternatives --config vncviewer
21:05
<vagrantc>
yes, but programatically, how does epoptes call a vnc-viewer that it doesn't have explicit support for?
21:06
got it
21:06
<alkisg>
-shared -listen
21:06
That's all it needs
21:06
The symlink is the same, at /usr/bin/vncviewer
21:06
While for others like ssvnc, it adds more stuff like `-scale auto`
21:07
bullseye-kde VM launching... :D
21:12
Hrm, tightvnc-java does register itself as a vncviewer alternative, but it doesn't even declare java as a dependency :D
21:12
And it doesn't support listen, so we cannot support that one
21:12
So maybe the specific list has a point after all
21:17
Whoops it's past my bed time. Gn! :)
21:19* vagrantc waves