IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.libera.chat (webchat)
Channel log from 23 January 2014 (all times are UTC)
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| 06:31 | <gdi2k> alkisg, thanks for your response on the ltsp-discuss list regarding the xrandr script - please could you point me to some documentation about LDM and it's rc scripts? I wasn't able to source anything
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| 06:32 | <alkisg> I don't think there's any, you need to read the code
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| 06:33 | lts.conf is already sourced at that point, so you just check the variables, that's why it would be so small then
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| 06:33 | In about 5 lines, it would work for both thin and fat clients
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| 06:33 | <gdi2k> and where would the script go?
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| 06:33 | <alkisg> /usr/share/ldm/rc.d/
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| 06:34 | <gdi2k> ok - and how would lts.conf be referenced from scripts located there?
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| 06:35 | <alkisg> It's already sourced by ltsp, no need to worry about that
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| 06:35 | <gdi2k> ok - I don't really understand enough about how it all works, but I will forward it onto the guy who wrote it, maybe he can figure it out
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| 06:36 | <alkisg> Sure, it shouldn't take more than 5 minutes to write it
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| 06:37 | <gdi2k> so the shortcut here is that we have access to lts.conf right? we still have to figure out the machine's MAC and run xrandr command based on what is in lts.conf - or am I missing something?
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| 06:38 | <alkisg> You have lts.conf and mac and user
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| 06:38 | So you only need to run the command
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| 06:38 | You actually don't care about the mac
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| 06:38 | It also works with [hostname]
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| 06:38 | Or with [ip]
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| 06:39 | <gdi2k> ok, probably above my head already, so I'll pass it on like that. thanks for your help!
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| 06:39 | <alkisg> You're welcome
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| 07:06 | <alkisg> bennabiy: I'm trying out Linux Mint again. Previously I didn't consider it much because of the way it's packaged, i.e. not as mate-desktop plus a different ubuntu flavor (kubuntu, edubuntu, so maybe mubuntu...)
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| 07:06 | But it does solve several of the issues that started to appear in Ubuntu
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| 07:07 | The keyboard layout works, as lightdm is not used there, the problems with gnome-flashback are all gone,
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| 07:07 | the menus are 10 times faster etc etc
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| 07:07 | I'm starting to think we made a bad choice going with gnome-fallback instead of focusing on mint and mate-desktop...
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| 07:08 | Since it's not maintained etc...
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| 07:16 | <highvoltage> alkisg: I've used mate for pretty much the whole month last month, it works really really well
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| 07:17 | <alkisg> highvoltage: I think that when LTSP users ask me, I'm going to start proposing to them to move away from gnome-flashback and start using Linux Mint, at least until mate-desktop is available in Debian/Ubuntu...
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| 07:18 | ...could you think of any reason I shouldn't do that?
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| 07:18 | <highvoltage> it's projected that it will make it in for 14.04 / jessie
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| 07:18 | <alkisg> highvoltage: how are you using it now? with mint? with jessie?
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| 07:18 | <highvoltage> alkisg: on debian with the mate repositories
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| 07:19 | <alkisg> The menu is the classic one provided by gnome-panel, or the linux mint one with the single panel on bottom?
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| 07:19 | <highvoltage> alkisg: only problem with us on the edubuntu side is that shipping mate means shipping the entire mate world (which includes its fork of nautilus, eye of gnome, calculator, etc, etc, etc)
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| 07:19 | so gnome-flashback is a more viable option for us there.
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| 07:20 | <alkisg> highvoltage: I think that will be an additional reason to use edubuntu
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| 07:20 | I don't use it. If it drops unity, I'll probably switch to it.
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| 07:20 | It's not only about LTSP, standalone clients go much faster without unity
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| 07:20 | <highvoltage> alkisg: I've felt for a while that we should either drop unity from edubuntu or make it more friendly in ltsp / educational / etc environments
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| 07:21 | <alkisg> And schools don't have the same $$ as desktop users do, so they've 3-4 years older hardware
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| 07:21 | <highvoltage> but I don't think there's enough manpower to do either at this stage
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| 07:22 | <alkisg> OK, I'll keep shipping my own CDs/DVDs then... unpacking ubuntu.iso, removing/adding programs, installing grub instead of gfxboot, and repacking the iso...
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| 07:22 | (grub is easier to add additional entries like ipxe than gfxboot)
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| 07:30 | <highvoltage> alkisg: no matter how you look at it there's currently no easy way to keep everything working nicely for everyone. I'm pretty confident it will get a lot better, but there's too many changes happening everywhere right now to have a good solution for everyone
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| 07:31 | I think doing a custom iso like you're doing is a good stop-gap. but I think longer-term there will be better solutions.
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| 07:32 | <vmlintu> What are the biggest problems that you are experiencing with gnome-fallback?
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| 07:33 | <alkisg> vmlintu: in 12.04 there aren't many, we worked around most of them. The panels are slow and sometimes disappear
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| 07:33 | But in 14.04 it's much much worse
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| 07:34 | Let me find you a mail I've sent to the gnome-fallback list...
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| 07:34 | <vmlintu> I feel like I have to start testing 14.04 really fast
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| 07:35 | If you are having menu problems, we implemented our own when the gnome menu was really slow to load on fat clients: https://github.com/opinsys/webmenu
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| 07:36 | <alkisg> Any screenshots?
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| 07:36 | vmlintu: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-flashback-list/2014-January/msg00001.html
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| 07:36 | <vmlintu> alkisg: there's one here: http://labs.opinsys.com/blog/2012/11/01/bringing-html5-to-the-desktop-with-appjs/
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| 07:38 | <vmlintu> alkisg: I'll take a few screenshots more and put them somewhere
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| 07:39 | <alkisg> vmlintu: are you using that in schools, or is it a proof of concept project?
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| 07:39 | <vmlintu> alkisg: it's used on all our desktops
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| 07:39 | <alkisg> I think you have some great coders there, but you don't direct them to the proper path... :)
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| 07:40 | Why develop "just another menu" instead of investing on an existing one?
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| 07:40 | E.g. profiling gnome-menu or re-packaging mint-menu could be easier and help a lot more users... no?
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| 07:41 | <vmlintu> It's done with HTML5 so it can integrate web content in it plus it recognizes the client type (thin/fat/laptop) and shows only applications that actually work on that device type
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| 07:41 | <alkisg> The power of FLOSS is that you can contribute to existing projects instead of developing your own solutions for everything that has something wrong...
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| 07:41 | The code to hide applications in ltsp thin/fat clients should be ltsp-specific, not menu specific...
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| 07:42 | Then it would work in kde, gnome, etc etc
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| 07:43 | <vmlintu> All of those have their own menus already
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| 07:46 | We did have code to setup the gnome menus depending on the client type, but we couldn't figure out how to fix any of the speed issues in it..
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| 07:48 | <alkisg> I just reported the issue to the gnome-flashback mailing list
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| 07:49 | I hope they fix the speed
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| 07:49 | But if I were to develop custom menus, I'm pretty sure it would take me less time to make gnome-panel faster...
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| 07:50 | I think that just profiling + pinpointing the slow function would make the developers make it fast..
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| 07:50 | * alkisg waves, time to go | |
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| 09:59 | <Ark74> hi!
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| 10:00 | i've been using ltsp 5.3 (shipped on 12.04) using some options like --copy-package-cache --keep-packages --mirror, etc
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| 10:01 | they seem to be gone in 5.5, there is the --config option
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| 10:02 | have these (--copy-package-cache, --mirror, mirror-updates, etc) be called from a config file?
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| 10:04 | or are they looong gone?
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| 10:59 | <Guest21793> hi., i want to change the pxe booting client to listen to a different DHCP port rather than the default 68 in ltsp request
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| 11:00 | actually when i go through the initrd of ltsp server., udhcp script is the one that initiates the dhcp request and acquires the server information
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| 11:00 | now how can i make the dhcp to listen on some other port in client
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| 11:14 | <prem_> hi alkisg
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| 11:14 | i have crossed half stage in setting up wireless boot for ltsp
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| 11:15 | <alkisg> Hi prem_
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| 11:15 | <prem_> now am able to boot from a external media and fetch the ip and get it workign
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| 11:15 | <alkisg> If you have external media, why would you use the wifi?
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| 11:15 | <prem_> but the problem is when the network is WPA security enabled..then am not abel to get it working
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| 11:16 | external media is only to supply the initrd and vmlinz
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| 11:16 | and as in etherboot it will fetch the ip through wifi and proceed
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| 11:17 | <alkisg> You need to match the vmlinuz with the nbd image
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| 11:17 | Because it needs access to /lib/modules/<same kernel>
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| 11:17 | So if you'll be writing stuff to the usb sticks anyway, why not write the whole nbd image?
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| 11:17 | And omit the vmlinuz/initrd, and let grub read it from inside the squashfs image?
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| 11:18 | Then it's "boot ltsp over local squashfs", which is already supporte,
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| 11:18 | d
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| 11:18 | and, "/home over wifi", which is easy
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| 11:19 | And basically it will work for e.g. 10 clients, while netbooting 10 clients over wifi won't work, too little bandwidth
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| 11:19 | <prem_> alkisg, is it alerady supported
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| 11:20 | if thats the case., i can very well go with it, because embedding all the wifi drivers and wpasupplicant in initrd is a bigg headache
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| 11:20 | and it didnt work properly with wpasupplicant also
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| 11:20 | <alkisg> Yup that's why I suggested it weeks ago :)
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| 11:20 | <prem_> is there any document for the method you have mentioned?
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| 11:20 | :)
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| 11:20 | <alkisg> I don't think so... google!
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| 11:21 | <prem_> thats the worst aprt
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| 11:22 | <alkisg> LTSP currently has too little manpower so there's not much documentation available
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| 11:22 | <prem_> :(
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| 11:23 | is there any way to change the dhcp port where the ltsp clients are listening
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| 11:23 | <alkisg> So people interested in LTSP should start giving back, if they want it to have all these...
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| 11:23 | There's no point in changing the port
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| 11:23 | <prem_> am planning to run the dhcp server in different port., so the clients also need to get change
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| 11:23 | <alkisg> Mention your specific issue
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| 11:24 | <prem_> alkisg, for soem security issues am planning to run dhcp server for ltsp in 99 port., so the client should also listen for the same na
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| 11:24 | equivalent to "dhclient -p 100 "
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| 11:25 | how can i pass this port in the udhcp script
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| 11:25 | <alkisg> I was looking for that 4 years ago
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| 11:25 | And I ended up deciding that it was a bad idea
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| 11:26 | <prem_> but why alkisg
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| 11:26 | <alkisg> So if you want to mention those security issues... I might have a better solution for you
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| 11:27 | In other words, assume that you won't change the port. OK, what else do you need there?
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| 11:27 | <prem_> i want to restrict all other user getting ip request from that server
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| 11:28 | <alkisg> Define "other users"
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| 11:28 | by mac address, or by "not using the udhcp script"?
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| 11:28 | <prem_> not by mac address
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| 11:28 | it wifi should server only the ltsp clients
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| 11:29 | <alkisg> OK, then ignore the clients that don't send "udhcp" as the vendor name
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| 11:29 | Done, no need to change the port nor the code
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| 11:30 | It's standard dhcp configuration...
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| 11:30 | <prem_> alkisg, ooh., i didnt notice that udhcp is sent as vendor name
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| 11:30 | good if thats the case., better i will check that once and come back
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| 11:31 | <prem_> and mean while i have to see for the other method u have told also
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| 11:31 | ltsp boot with squashfs
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| 11:31 | <alkisg> !local-boot
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| 11:31 | <ltsp> local-boot: If you want LTSP fat clients on a low-speed network, you can put i386.img on e.g. C:\Boot\LTSP\i386.img and use this command line in pxelinux.cfg: APPEND ro initrd=ltsp/i386/initrd.img init=/sbin/init-ltsp root=/dev/sda1 rootflags=ro loop=/Boot/LTSP/i386.img; IPAPPEND 3
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| 11:31 | <alkisg> (just for reference, it's not _exactly_ what you want...)
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| 11:32 | <prem_> alkisg, so what happens next if this image is supplied altogether?
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| 11:32 | how come the filessytem gets mounted over nfs?
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| 11:32 | that we need to make entries in fstab?
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| 11:34 | <alkisg> sshfs, the default
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| 11:35 | <prem_> that will be taken care by i386.img ?
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| 11:36 | <alkisg> yup
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| 11:38 | <Ark74> alkisg, hi!
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| 11:39 | i was checking ltsp 5.5 and many <options> are not available compared to 5.3
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| 11:39 | have they moved somewhere else, or be called by a config file?
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| 11:40 | or are they gone for good?
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| 11:45 | <alkisg> Ark74: ltsp-build-client --extra-help
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| 11:46 | You were seeing them without that in ltsp 5.3?
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| 11:48 | <Ark74> i tried --copy-package-cache --keep-packages and ltsp said there aren't available option
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| 11:48 | <alkisg> What was the *exact* command?
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| 11:49 | And, which distro/version?
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| 11:49 | <Ark74> sudo ltsp-build-client --arch i386 --copy-package-cache --keep-packages --mirror | ltsp 5.5 (PPA) *buntu LTS 12.04
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| 11:50 | <alkisg> What * ?
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| 11:50 | E.g. if you say mint, it's completely different...
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| 11:53 | <Ark74> actually it's this one: http://packages.trisquel.info/toutatis/ltsp-server-standalone <- 5.3, the 5.5 i'm testing is the PPA one from the Hellenic School Tech ST.
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| 11:53 | <alkisg> What's the output of `lsb_release -a` on trisquel?
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| 11:54 | <Ark74> No LSB modules are available.
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| 11:54 | Distributor ID: Trisquel
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| 11:54 | Description: Trisquel 6.0
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| 11:54 | Release: 6.0
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| 11:54 | Codename: toutatis
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| 11:55 | <alkisg> It doesn't identify itself as ubuntu, so I'm not sure it's supported by ltsp
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| 11:55 | ltsp-build-client and debootstrap need specific names to work
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| 11:56 | You might have better luck with ltsp-pnp, which doesn't use debootstrap/ltsp-build-client
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| 11:56 | bbl, will read logs
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| 11:57 | <amit> hi
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| 11:57 | amit is now known as Guest74351 | |
| 11:58 | <Guest74351> my ltsp server disk got full and i dont wanna reinstall my server any budy can suggest me to increase my / or /home partion space.
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| 12:33 | <bennabiy> alkisg: that is why I like Mint and Mate (I would say if you want to run the debian version, just run debian with Mate desktop rather than the LMDE mate version, although it is fine.)
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| 12:41 | <markit> hi alkisg, I've the vague memory of having already asked you in the past... someone in a teacher's italian list was asking for a program for "foreign language teaching lab". Needs something like epoptes but regarding audio, like send (teacher's or a student) audio to everyone, let the teacher listen to the mic of a specific student and speak with him and so on. Is/will be epoptes ok for it?
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| 12:43 | <alkisg> markit: I don't think Phantomas has audio transfer is his TODO list... ask him when he's around, he may do it if he thinks there are users for it
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| 12:43 | <bennabiy> alkisg: Are you testing mint 16? How does it fare in the ltsp-pnp realm?
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| 12:44 | <alkisg> bennabiy: no I haven't reached that far yet, I just tested the mint 13 live cd and it didn't have the usual gnome-fallback issues
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| 12:45 | If gnome-fallback ends up working fine, it'll be smoother for us to go from 12.04 fallback to 14.04 fallback, so it depends on whether mate-desktop will actually be available for 14.04 and if gnome-fallback will fix its issues
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| 12:47 | <markit> alkisg: so would be an improvement you are happy about (or don't oppose)?
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| 12:48 | * highvoltage is confident that some of the gnome-flashback issues will be solved by 14.04, but probably not all of it (it has a long backlog of legacy issues as well) | |
| 12:48 | <alkisg> markit: no I wouldn't oppose to it at all
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| 12:49 | highvoltage: if only the regressions from 12.04 were solved, we'd stick with gnome-flashback for 14.04 too...
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| 12:49 | <markit> thanks (opposed = you don't think is the right program to manage it, so don't want that feature in epoptes because does not fit)
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| 12:50 | <alkisg> markit: we cared for remote education when designing epoptes, that's why we opted for reverse connections etc, and sure audio can be a vital part there, so it's the right app for it
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| 12:51 | I'm just not sure how much time Phantomas will want to invest there
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| 12:51 | Since I don't think anyone here will be using it
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| 12:51 | (the audio part)
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| 12:52 | <markit> alkisg: how do your school solve the language lab problem then?
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| 12:53 | maybe there is a specific program / trick we are not aware of
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| 12:53 | (btw, never saw it's usage, nor studied/were in schools where it's used)
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| 12:55 | <alkisg> markit: they're not using computers in that sense, in language lessons
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| 12:55 | They're only using them as DVD sets :)
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| 12:55 | Teachers and students chat normally, live, without PCs
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| 12:59 | <bennabiy> alkisg: One thing to consider is that Mint is talking about going LTS to LTS with their releases, rather than keeping up with Ubuntus intermediary releases. So it would go Mint 17, 17.1 etc, and then the next LTS would be 18
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| 13:00 | <alkisg> Better! :)
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| 13:00 | <bennabiy> Keeps the code base more stable, and allows for much better support and bug fixing
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| 13:00 | they already took steps to backport support to Mint 13
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| 13:00 | <alkisg> Right, I'd prefer it if Ubuntu stopped doing intermediary releases as well
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| 13:00 | <bennabiy> yes
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| 13:00 | <alkisg> And on second step, if it synced with debian for their feature freeze dates... (not for release)
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| 13:03 | <bennabiy> You should take a minute to stop in to linuxmint-dev on irc.spotchat.org and talk to clem. He is very open to suggestions and input
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| 13:03 | <alkisg> (actually it's the opposite there, debian should sync with ubuntu freeze dates)
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| 13:04 | My basic suggestion for clem would be to make mint an ubuntu flavor rather than a "distro"... but I think he would already know that "idea"
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| 13:05 | I.e. to package all the modifications that he does, not use a script that makes live CDs...
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| 13:05 | <bennabiy> He packages by hand
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| 13:06 | <alkisg> What does mint offer? E.g. a main menu? OK, then make a "mint-menu" package that I could install anywhere, e.g. over debian wheezy
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| 13:06 | Now it's a "cd", not a "collection of packages that are available in all distros"
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| 13:55 | <highvoltage> well said, alkisg
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| 14:00 | <ogra_> alkisg, once the touch stuff took over the desktop we will most likely switch to rolling releases with LTS snaphots
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| 14:00 | <alkisg> ogra_: if the touch stuff takes over the desktop I'm afraid Ubuntu won't be usable in schools :(
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| 14:01 | <ogra_> alkisg, why is that ?
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| 14:01 | <alkisg> First, it's very very slow
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| 14:01 | Even on dual core systems
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| 14:01 | So, for our usual P4's here, it's a no-go
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| 14:01 | <ogra_> it is pretty snappy on my phone :)
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| 14:02 | <alkisg> Maybe it's optimized for phones, it doesn't matter
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| 14:02 | <ogra_> but yeah, it indeed requires that you have a proper graphics card
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| 14:02 | <alkisg> i915
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| 14:02 | <ogra_> that should be perfectly fine for Mir
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| 14:02 | <alkisg> 3d and all
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| 14:02 | <ogra_> and get you a snappy UI
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| 14:02 | <alkisg> I think it's cpu related
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| 14:02 | <ogra_> (once thats on the desktop ... as i said)
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| 14:03 | <alkisg> P8400 @ 2.26GHz can't display dash fast
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| 14:03 | <alkisg> It needs 1 second for each one of my keystrokes...
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| 14:03 | <ogra_> cant be since all UI stuff will be in the GPU in the new world
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| 14:03 | <alkisg> I think the dash code is quite unoptimized
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| 14:03 | <ogra_> i'm talking about the future, nothing of what i talk about exists on the desktop yet
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| 14:03 | the Mir code ? or the Qt of the desktop ?
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| 14:03 | s/desktop/unity8/
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| 14:03 | <alkisg> Let's hope so... but launchpad.net is one of the few programs developed by canonical that I don't have issues yet
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| 14:04 | The current gtk code on the desktop
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| 14:04 | <ogra_> thats dead and done
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| 14:04 | <alkisg> Things remain broken for years, we can't even type greek yet
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| 14:04 | <ogra_> unity7 is in maintenance
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| 14:04 | <alkisg> ..since 10.10
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| 14:05 | <ogra_> no new features etc
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| 14:05 | (there might be new scopes etc ... but these function the same on unity8)
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| 14:05 | <alkisg> I like the qt direction, I hope it's followed by others
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| 14:05 | <ogra_> anyway ... the new world also means image based upgrades
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| 14:06 | <alkisg> Even on the desktop?
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| 14:06 | <ogra_> which will have to go through the same QA procedure as the phones do today
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| 14:06 | that means you will always have a properly usable distro, no matter which image you install
| |
| 14:06 | which effectively gives you a rolling release
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| 14:06 | <alkisg> And the .deb packages will be installed on an overlay upon the rolling image?
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| 14:06 | <ogra_> yes, i expect that even on the desktop
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| 14:07 | no idea yet ... thats part for the convergence work starting in 14.10
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| 14:07 | but desktop and phone wont be that much apart (underneath the UI) in the future
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| 14:08 | <alkisg> I think most vendors have the wrong idea about that.. they *should* be different
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| 14:08 | I don't want to mimic my phone on my desktop
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| 14:08 | Nor the other way around
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| 14:08 | <ogra_> why would you
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| 14:09 | <alkisg> What's wrong with the current model that needs to be changed that much?
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| 14:09 | We have much software broken because canonical choose to diverge, and then couldn't keep up with its maintainance
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| 14:09 | <ogra_> it is resource intensive and as you said drags bugs through for years
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| 14:09 | that cant happen with the new processes we use
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| 14:09 | <alkisg> The software is broken, not the update method
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| 14:09 | E.g. ubuntu replaces gdm with lightdm
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| 14:10 | Then it stays broken for years
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| 14:10 | <ogra_> replaces ?
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| 14:10 | <alkisg> Yes, it's using lightdm instead of gdm...
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| 14:10 | <ogra_> ubuntu defines the unity desktop ... and chose to use lightdm, yes
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| 14:10 | <alkisg> And it's broken, while gdm works
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| 14:10 | Right
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| 14:10 | <ogra_> not broken for me
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| 14:10 | <alkisg> Right
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| 14:10 | It only works for a few developers :)
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| 14:10 | <ogra_> what is broken about it
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| 14:11 | <alkisg> We can't type greek because of lightdm
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| 14:11 | Since 4 years now
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| 14:11 | <ogra_> neither for my GF or my mom
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| 14:11 | <alkisg> Right. But still, millions of people are affected
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| 14:11 | <ogra_> why cant you type greek ?
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| 14:11 | <alkisg> Because lightdm thinks people only need 1 keyboard layout
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| 14:11 | While there are 20 countries that need 2
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| 14:12 | <ogra_> well, that should be addressed, but i doubt that has to do with lightdm
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| 14:12 | rather with decisions of design people
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| 14:12 | <alkisg> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/lightdm/+bug/1016409
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| 14:12 | Here's the lightdm part
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| 14:12 | <ogra_> anyway ...
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| 14:12 | <alkisg> It's not 1 problem
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| 14:13 | For example, translations
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| 14:13 | <ogra_> but its also not a code problem but a design problem
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| 14:13 | <alkisg> Ubuntu tells people "translate xyz on launchpad"
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| 14:13 | <ogra_> yes
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| 14:13 | <alkisg> Then xyz gets properly translated upstream
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| 14:13 | And ubuntu keeps shipping broken translations for years
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| 14:13 | Overriding the correct upstream ones
| |
| 14:13 | * ogra_ cant say anything about that ... | |
| 14:14 | <alkisg> What I mean is that Ubuntu is trying to be innovative in many more areas than it has manpower to suport
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| 14:14 | <ogra_> i'm not affiliated with translations anywhere
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| 14:14 | <alkisg> *support
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| 14:14 | <ogra_> yes
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| 14:14 | <alkisg> And that it should try to be more conservative, not do even more things
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| 14:14 | Like reinvent the installation system...
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| 14:14 | <ogra_> the new world will change that ... manpower will be effectively freed up
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| 14:14 | reinvent ?
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| 14:14 | <alkisg> Mimic android images
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| 14:14 | They won't work on desktop
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| 14:15 | <ogra_> mimic ?
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| 14:15 | i'm not sure if you ever looked at a phone install
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| 14:15 | its a normal ubuntu rootfs ...
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| 14:16 | <alkisg> No, I haven't, I tried to put the zatab image but it didn't work, but I did purchase a nexus 4 just for that, when it'll be ready... now I think it's not usable as a phone yet
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| 14:16 | <ogra_> i use mine daily
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| 14:16 | its very well usable
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| 14:16 | <alkisg> Can I sync contacts with thunderbird?
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| 14:16 | <ogra_> lacking an email client though ... i admit that
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| 14:17 | and getting along with the awful G+ webapp needs some getting used to
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| 14:17 | you can sync contacts with google
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| 14:17 | (possibly also with TB, not sure if syncevolution knows how though)
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| 14:18 | <alkisg> Sorry, visitors, thanks for the chat ogra_! :0
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| 14:18 | :)
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| 14:18 | <ogra_> :)
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| 14:30 | * bennabiy is glad to see alkisg is not partial with what he has a beef about | |
| 14:32 | <bennabiy> alkisg, that is partly why I like linuxmint. For many of the things you stated. I do not think I can put it so eloquently, but I appreciate how they care that the typical desktop user would have a good experience
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| 14:34 | We also appreciate the way Ubuntu has been in the past, but as one who is not involved (nor will be) in the whole transition to "digital life" and being tied to a tiny device, I am glad that someone wants to keep the desktop around.
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| 14:35 | <ogra_> bennabiy, ubuntu keeps the desktop around ...
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| 14:36 | the unity8 desktop wont look different from todays desktop
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| 14:36 | <bennabiy> Staring at a little device all day really changes your view of the world around you, and tends to make things very bleh... Not if it is supposed to function like a phone
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| 14:36 | todays desktop is not a desktop.
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| 14:36 | <ogra_> (but it will run with only using 128M for example ... )
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| 14:37 | <bennabiy> It is a glorified, dumbed down UI
| |
| 14:38 | * bennabiy shrugs... | |
| 14:39 | <bennabiy> I guess that is why there are so many different ideas on what good is... Everyone wants something different, and the problem is everyone assumes everyone else wants what you like.
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| 14:39 | * ogra_ doesnt find it dumbed down ... i'm way more productive than with any other desktop | |
| 14:40 | <bennabiy> Hence emacs vs vi, mozilla vs google etc.
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| 14:40 | <ogra_> canonical did tons of usability researches over several years ...
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| 14:41 | my 75 year old mom grasped it immediately ... and thats the target audience
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| 14:43 | anyway, i'm with alkisg here that it would be nice if mint did its stuff as a flavour in the ubuntu archive ... would solve many probs
| |
| 14:45 | <bennabiy> I can't speak for them, I just know having hung out in their channel and hearing the discussions, that in general I agree with their concern about where Ubuntu in general is going, and with the concern for things to not constantly be breaking because of regressions and trying to keep up with the jones'
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| 14:46 | <ogra_> well, read the backlog
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| 14:46 | it is actively being worked on to move to zero regression releases
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| 14:47 | <bennabiy> Which is very encouraging
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| 14:47 | <ogra_> thats what is happening with the phone ... and these processes will expand into desktop and server
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| 14:47 | <bennabiy> That might allow for them to work more closely with Ubuntu
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| 14:47 | Their chief concern is stability and user experience, not to be bleeding edge
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| 14:48 | <ogra_> at the cost of security :)
| |
| 14:48 | (but i had my share of balash about this, wont go further than saying that much about the topic :) )
| |
| 14:48 | *backlash
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| 14:48 | <bennabiy> I was wondering how much you were going to say again
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| 14:49 | <ogra_> well, i learned that the press monitord even the little corners of the internet ...
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| 14:49 | *monitors
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| 14:49 | <bennabiy> heh
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| 14:49 | <ogra_> which is sad, i wish we could have started some conversation about this ...
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| 14:49 | <bennabiy> I just want you to know, I do not have anything against you personally.
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| 14:49 | <ogra_> but i saw that clem in petra actually ripped out the ubuntu kernel upgrader package completely
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| 14:50 | which means no upgrades at all
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| 14:51 | and people seem to not get that keyloggers sniffing your passwords will hook into the input layer ... that means kernel or Xorg ... both dont get their security upgrades in the default setup
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| 14:52 | sadly clem never got back to me about it, would have been nice to solve the issues he has with us to make mint safe for everyone
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| 14:52 | <bennabiy> Why not go into their dev channel and talk to him
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| 14:53 | <ogra_> well, for the petra release he seems to have made a decision ...
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| 14:54 | which means moving away from ubuntu completely by removing linux-generic from the install
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| 14:54 | which is ... well ... the other direction ...
| |
| 14:55 | so now he provides the kernel via his own mechanism (if he does ... )
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| 14:55 | (i'm not following mint that closely, but i had plenty of people mail me after the petra release about it)
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| 15:03 | <bennabiy> brb
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| 15:04 | <markit> transform users to dumb people -> only need basic functionality -> provide a dumb interface, the same on all devices -> dead of IT
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| 15:05 | <ogra_> markit, huh ?
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| 15:08 | <markit> ogra_: the same UI on my pc and on my cell phone or tablet is really bad OMHO
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| 15:08 | * bennabiy nods | |
| 15:08 | <markit> it remembers me my first "smart phone" with windows CE and the "start" button on it, lol
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| 15:09 | <ogra_> markit, well, i would start with your first statement ...
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| 15:09 | <markit> just now is all the way around
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| 15:09 | kde people do it right instead, different UI for different devices, common design and code
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| 15:09 | <ogra_> markit, and what makes you think unity would be different ?
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| 15:11 | <markit> ogra_: I do hope, but the "trend" seems different so I just guess unity will follow M$ (btw, I use kde)
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| 15:11 | <ogra_> markit, there are no plans to use the exact same UI across all devices
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| 15:11 | the unity8 desktop will look pretty much like todays unity desktop looks like
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| 15:12 | <markit> so bad? ;P
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| 15:12 | <ogra_> and i guess you have seen some videos of the phone UI
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| 15:12 | <markit> joking, sorry, could not resist
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| 15:12 | <ogra_> they will be the exact same code
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| 15:12 | but not look exactly the same
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| 15:12 | <markit> ok, mine was a general consideration, I see people around using tablets and cell phones instead of pc
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| 15:13 | it's ok for them because their have been so "dumbed" that the only useful thing a pc can do for them is log in facebook
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| 15:14 | btw, I've just read the news that IBM is selling server (low range, x86) division to Lenovo
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| 15:14 | <ogra_> "they have been so dumbed" ?
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| 15:14 | they *dont want the computer to do more for them*
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| 15:15 | and thats where unity goes ... 90% of computer users will not change more than the wallpaper (if even) and *just use* it
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| 15:15 | <bennabiy> I like when phones can just be phones, and desktops can be desktops
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| 15:15 | <ogra_> ?
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| 15:15 | <markit> yes, you have an incredible tool to do 1.000 things, and your view has been so restricted (or no one, i.e. school, cared to enlarged) that you are happy with 5 things
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| 15:16 | <ogra_> markit, a computer is just a tool for most people ... they dont hack it or want to modify it, they just want to be productive
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| 15:16 | and yes, that might mean 5 things
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| 15:17 | <markit> a tool? have a look how badly they just use a word processor...
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| 15:17 | ogra_: btw, unfortunately I've no time to keep the conversation sorry, back to some work now, I'll have a look here time to time
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| 15:17 | <ogra_> :)
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| 15:17 | they use a digital typewriter, not a word processor ... because thats what they know ;)
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| 15:18 | <bennabiy> I have a feeling these type of conversations will exist no matter what the state of OS and UI development reaches
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| 15:18 | <ogra_> yeah
| |
| 15:19 | anyway, ubuntu (with unity) is sold on quite a huge amount of machines ... enough to pay my rent :) must have a reason that people buy it
| |
| 15:19 | (well, i'm lying ... i dont pay rent :P )
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| 15:22 | <bennabiy> ogra_ I would say people will buy anything these days.
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| 15:22 | <ogra_> heh
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| 15:22 | tell that to microsoft
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| 15:24 | <bennabiy> that is the other thing. Nobody listens these days
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| 15:24 | <ogra_> 20% of all notebooks sold in the US were chromebooks in 2013
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| 15:24 | (and ~20% in china were ubuntu ones)
| |
| 15:26 | and HP just re-introduced win7 for all their desktops :)
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