IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.libera.chat (webchat)
Channel log from 31 March 2017 (all times are UTC)
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| 11:08 | <alkisg> bennabiy: I'm running the stock Ubuntu 16.04 kernels, which was at 4.4 previously and currently is 4.8
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| 13:49 | <CristianV> hi everybody. Im experiencing some problems. Firefox sucks on clients and slows the whole system.
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| 13:50 | ubuntu mate 16.04
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| 13:50 | 64 bits
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| 13:51 | everything else works fine
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| 13:51 | even chrome.
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| 14:02 | <CristianV> if I run firefox it hangs so bad it prevents other clients from booting. If I run on local server it runs good. problem is on clients.
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| 14:02 | <alkisg> CristianV: are your clients good enough to use as fat clients?
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| 14:02 | !fatcvlients
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| 14:02 | <ltsp> I do not know about 'fatcvlients', but I do know about these similar topics: 'fatclients'
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| 14:02 | <alkisg> !fatclients
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| 14:02 | <ltsp> fatclients: Nowadays LTSP supports thin and fat clients. They are both diskless and netbooted from the same LTSP chroot, but while thin clients run the session on the server and transfer the screen, fat clients run the session locally with their own CPU/RAM, thus performing amazingly better. See also !ltsp-pnp and https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/FatClients
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| 14:03 | <alkisg> !ltsp-pnp
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| 14:03 | <ltsp> ltsp-pnp: ltsp-pnp is an alternative (upstream) method to maintain LTSP installations for thin and fat clients that doesn't involve chroots: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/ltsp-pnp
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| 14:04 | <alkisg> !bandwidth
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| 14:04 | <ltsp> I do not know about 'bandwidth', but I do know about these similar topics: 'thin-clients-bandwidth'
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| 14:04 | <alkisg> !thin-clients-bandwidth
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| 14:04 | <ltsp> thin-clients-bandwidth: A small explanation why thin clients can't perform well with video, lots of screen updates etc: https://sourceforge.net/p/ltsp/mailman/message/35694699/
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| 14:05 | <alkisg> So, what is your client CPU/RAM?
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| 14:10 | <Hyperbyte> Hello alkisg! :-)
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| 14:24 | <CristianV> hey
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| 14:24 | sry was away
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| 14:24 | no they arent
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| 14:24 | I have other ltsp (older ubuntu 10.10) running fine
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| 14:26 | maybe this helps, ltps is a vm, if I create a vm to use as ltsp client (just for testing purposes) firefox runs good on that client. but on real clients it doesnt. just firefox
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| 14:29 | libreoffice, chrome, file browsing, printing etc... works good.
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| 14:31 | <alkisg> Hi Hyperbyte
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| 14:31 | CristianV: firefox switched to gtk3 and produces a lot of screen redraws
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| 14:32 | I think there were some options to make it use the older drawing methods, but in general the best solution is to use diskless ltsp fat clients
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| 14:32 | <CristianV> what about client image size?
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| 14:32 | it gets to big?
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| 14:32 | <alkisg> The resolution does play a role, yes
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| 14:32 | <CristianV> too
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| 14:33 | <alkisg> Ah you mean the i386.img image size?
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| 14:33 | <CristianV> yeah
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| 14:33 | <alkisg> That size doesn't matter at all
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| 14:33 | E.g. we have clients with image size=10 GB and they boot in 30 secs
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| 14:33 | <CristianV> wow
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| 14:33 | didnt knew
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| 14:34 | <alkisg> It's like having a 1 TB disk
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| 14:34 | The clients still boot fast, because not all the disk is loaded into RAM
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| 14:34 | <CristianV> im goint to give it a shot.
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| 14:34 | my clients have 2 gb ram
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| 14:34 | cant remember what cpu but its single core small intel cpu
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| 14:35 | atom i think
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| 14:35 | do you think It could work?
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| 14:50 | <alkisg> CristianV: definately yes
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| 14:50 | Just follow the ltsp-pnp guide
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| 14:51 | !ltsp-pnp
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| 14:51 | <ltsp> ltsp-pnp: ltsp-pnp is an alternative (upstream) method to maintain LTSP installations for thin and fat clients that doesn't involve chroots: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/ltsp-pnp
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| 14:51 | <CristianV> okok
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| 14:51 | thanks a lot
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| 15:18 | alkisg just did what says in the document but clients dont boot.
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| 15:18 | <alkisg> CristianV: do a vnc to let me look:
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| 15:18 | !vnc-dide
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| 15:18 | <ltsp> vnc-dide: To share your screen with me, run this: sudo apt-get --yes install x11vnc; x11vnc -connect srv1-dide.ioa.sch.gr - this is a reverse connection, it doesn't need port forwarding etc.
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| 15:20 | <CristianV> ok
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| 15:21 | there you go
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| 15:24 | <alkisg> There's no dhcp server in this subnet..
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| 15:24 | I asked for an ip and I don't get one
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| 15:25 | <CristianV> yes there is a dhcp
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| 15:25 | just for known clients
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| 15:25 | <alkisg> Btw why do you have /administrator instead of /home/administrator?
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| 15:25 | This will cause you a few issues...
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| 15:25 | <CristianV> because I intended to mount home from an nfs server
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| 15:26 | but wanted to have the admin user in a local home
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| 15:26 | <alkisg> OK at least use /srv/administrator to avoid getting that dir into the client image
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| 15:26 | Because unknown dirs like /administrator get into the image
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| 15:26 | <CristianV> ok will move later
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| 15:28 | <alkisg> First of all, you missed the ltsp-config dnsmasq step
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| 15:28 | Let's see now...
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| 15:29 | <CristianV> yep, I tought I could use my running dhcp
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| 15:29 | it's booting
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| 15:29 | <alkisg> dnsmasq is also tftp
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| 15:29 | <CristianV> ooh
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| 15:29 | Its running
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| 15:29 | <alkisg> I'll install epoptes, it's a nice tool to control clients, ok?
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| 15:29 | !epoptes
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| 15:29 | <ltsp> epoptes: Epoptes is a computer lab administration and monitoring tool. It works on Ubuntu and Debian based labs with LTSP or non-LTSP servers, thin and fat clients, standalone workstations, NX clients etc. More info: http://www.epoptes.org
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| 15:29 | <CristianV> didnt wanted to use epoptes but its ok
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| 15:30 | <alkisg> OK no problem I won't install it
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| 15:30 | <CristianV> I just did lol
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| 15:30 | ok
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| 15:30 | <alkisg> Nah it didn't succeed, your dns has issues
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| 15:30 | <CristianV> I have my own dns server, could I use it?
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| 15:32 | <alkisg> Sure put it there
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| 15:33 | <CristianV> there
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| 15:34 | <alkisg> OK
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| 15:34 | Now check if the client runs better
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| 15:35 | <CristianV> booting one
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| 15:35 | <alkisg> Btw why don't you like epoptes? Anything I should know? :)
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| 15:36 | <CristianV> nothing special, i have a script that logs clients info on a db and I manage them with x11vnc
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| 15:36 | <alkisg> ok
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| 15:37 | <CristianV> because I have 3 ltsp servers so I dont want to check where the client is
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| 15:37 | it's fast for me, I may use epoptes later
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| 15:38 | ok im going to add a user so I could login on client
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| 15:38 | <alkisg> You can easily specify that all epoptes clients appear on one server or on one pc
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| 15:38 | OK, do so
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| 15:38 | <CristianV> Ok thats good
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| 15:40 | alkisg
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| 15:40 | you are my new god
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| 15:40 | <alkisg> Hahaha
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| 15:40 | Then I guess it's better now? :D
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| 15:41 | <CristianV> Im testing with a "fast" machine, I have to tryout with a normal thinclient
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| 15:41 | so, how do I set clients to boot into this new ltsp? like always do? in my old dhcp?
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| 15:42 | <alkisg> Yes
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| 15:42 | <CristianV> so dnsmasq will not interfiere
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| 15:44 | <alkisg> dnsmasq is now in proxy mode, auxilliary
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| 15:44 | If you want to manage everything from the other server, let's disable that one
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| 15:45 | OK, no dhcp now in dnsmasq
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| 15:46 | <CristianV> Im going to run a test on a thinclient. This runs very good
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| 15:46 | so now I dont have a chroot like a normal ltsp
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| 15:48 | <alkisg> Right. You can also do it with a chroot, but usually there's no reason to bother with chroots
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| 15:48 | <CristianV> i like this better
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| 15:48 | clients boot fast
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| 15:48 | and runs like they never did
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| 15:49 | <alkisg> There are some known bugs in 16.04, but you'll find them soon enough... there are workarounds too
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| 15:49 | <CristianV> what kind of bugs?
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| 15:50 | are you staying here? i need to eat something, brb soon.
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| 15:51 | <alkisg> Nah, walk time... :
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| 15:51 | <CristianV> ok, thanks a lot man, you really opened my eyes :D
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| 15:51 | cya
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| 16:16 | <cafehh> Hello @channel
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| 16:17 | Just jumping in here to ask how the current status pf the LTSP project is, as the content of LTSP seems pretty outdated..
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| 16:18 | ... when i look on the website..
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| 16:28 | <alkisg> cafehh: the development is still ongoing; the documentation, not so much
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| 16:28 | We lack documentation volunteers
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| 17:04 | <cafehh> just asking if someone use LTSP with current distros, how are the experiences with Thin- / Fat-Clients to support browsing, local sound, local usb-ports for each setup..
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| 17:04 | well thank you alkisg for your answer.
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| 17:06 | as we (a lokal internetcafe) plan to setup new hardware, we are interessted in print accounting & billing
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| 17:09 | so for this we need a good management-setup wich includes blocking of terminals, ording, different tarif structures and of cause, a modern ui, and what we found are abandoned, ugly, far from beeing easy compiling, ... all dev nightmares you can think of..
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| 17:15 | <vagrantc> cafehh: in general, we've been recommending LTSP fat clients
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| 17:16 | cafehh: but i don't know off the top of my head what sort of software would support accounting, billing, enabling terminals on a timer
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| 17:17 | cafehh: epoptes can lock clients remotely, but it's a manual process
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| 17:18 | <vagrantc> cafehh: with fat clients, anything that runs on a locally installed computer should work fine with LTSP
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| 17:20 | <cafehh> hmm, yes i have seen epoptes.. have to ask there if its possible to extend the software with plugins..
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| 17:23 | because of long time standby (while running) its really a matter of energy price, so we would use if any is possible middle hardware like pokini, integrated mini-pc (with VESA-mount). What are the backdraws of using small thin-clients when it comes to browsing, stream watching (youtube), skype..
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| 17:25 | we talking here of an amount of 7 Client-PC nothing in a range of a company size..
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| 17:26 | plus the main server..
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| 17:44 | <vagrantc> watching video is very network intensive on thin clients
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| 17:44 | because the server decompresses the video stream and then sends it to the client uncompressed
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| 17:44 | essentially
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| 17:44 | audio is kind of cumbersome
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| 17:45 | a lot of software isn't designed in a way that works well on thin clients anymore, especially if you're doing any multimedia
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| 17:46 | some hardware marketed as "thin clients" would actually be fine to use for fat clients, as well.
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| 17:46 | you need more ram, and a little more CPU power... that's about the only difference
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| 17:50 | <cafehh> ok, but i can for example, boot a fat client and mount the home dir from the server (n additional services) on top of a aufs and run the fat client in a guest-mode / read-only mode like from cd / usb ?
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| 17:53 | most of our users want to be "anonymous" n use the guest-mode and not a own user-account, for this we use a limited account on Win10 currently wich are reset on current state after customer logs out.
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| 17:55 | and really win10 is a maintenance nightmare... thats why i throwed in LTSP.. as possible sollution
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| 18:11 | so for seven pc, what is the recommended network bandwith if 2-3 thin-clients using streaming and maybe one is skyping?
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| 18:15 | <alkisg> !thin-client-bandwidth
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| 18:15 | <ltsp> I do not know about 'thin-client-bandwidth', but I do know about these similar topics: 'thin-clients-bandwidth'
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| 18:15 | <alkisg> !thin-clients-bandwidth
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| 18:15 | <ltsp> thin-clients-bandwidth: A small explanation why thin clients can't perform well with video, lots of screen updates etc: https://sourceforge.net/p/ltsp/mailman/message/35694699/
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| 18:15 | <alkisg> !cheap-client
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| 18:15 | <ltsp> cheap-client: (#1) http://www.gearbest.com/tv-box-mini-pc/pp_343636.html, or (#2) https://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/New-arrival-Beelink-Pocket-Z83-Windows-10-Mini-PC-Z8300-64bit-1-84GHz-2GB-RAM-32GB/1871240_32640039781.html
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| 18:15 | <alkisg> cafehh: don't use thin clients. Use fat clients.
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| 18:15 | For 2-3 fat clients, a normal 100 mbps network is more than enough
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| 18:16 | To implement guest mode in ltsp, you need a script with 10 lines
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| 18:16 | !guest
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| 18:16 | <ltsp> I do not know about 'guest', but I do know about these similar topics: 'greek'
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| 18:17 | <alkisg> ...i don't have the link handy, but you can google it, I posted it a few years ago in the ltsp discuss mailing list
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| 18:19 | <cafehh> thx alkisg, thats a really interessting link, ok that is a reason to use fat clients vs thin-cl. ones
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| 18:20 | does it make sense to compile a special (reduced) kernel for fat clients to fit their requirements?
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| 18:22 | Do you have any experience with that intel mini-pc you linked to @alkisg?
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| 18:22 | <||cw> last time I found it usefult o compile a trim kernel I was dealing with a system that only had 24MB ram
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| 18:23 | <cafehh> well i think, at least every system like a trimmed kernel for loading over network..
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| 18:24 | backdraw would be if you replace the clients hardware.. but for that I could still have a std kernel in the back ..
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| 18:26 | that sounds like a embedded ARM system @| | cw
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| 18:26 | <||cw> in a modern kernel most things are modules anyway, so you might only save a couple MB. it does make sense to make a custom initrd in some cases
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| 18:29 | <cafehh> thanks for all your answers :) I think i will dive deeper into the LTSP code to find the answers I looking for our special requirements.
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| 18:30 | but to setup a updated management n billing system I see myself a couple of sleepless night coming :(
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| 18:30 | have a nice evening @ all
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| 19:09 | <vagrantc> for the record, with any remotely recent hardware, i suspect the human-hours spent compiling a custom kernel (and the number of iterations to get it right) will far outweigh whatever minimal gains you might expect to see from it
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| 19:17 | <qqqqqqqqq9> how do i regenerate the entries in /var/lib/tftpboot/ltsp/amd64/pxelinux.cfg/ ?
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| 19:31 | <Hyperbyte> !ltsp-update-kernel
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| 19:31 | <ltsp> I do not know about 'ltsp-update-kernel', but I do know about these similar topics: 'ltsp-update-kernels'
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| 19:32 | <Hyperbyte> !ltsp-update-kernels
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| 19:32 | <ltsp> ltsp-update-kernels: http://manpages.ubuntu.com/manpages/maverick/man8/ltsp-update-kernels.8.html
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| 19:37 | <vagrantc> though technically, that only re-copies the files generated in the image
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| 19:37 | to regenerate the files in the chroot and/or image, you need to re-run /usr/share/ltsp/update-kernels within the appropriate environment
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| 19:38 | and edit the corresponding chroot/image /etc/ltsp/update-kernels.conf appropriately to make adjustments
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| 19:38 | with recent versions, you can remove the symlink and create a custom pxelinux.cfg/default
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| 19:38 | with older versions, it would get rewritten
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| 19:43 | <qqqqqqqqq9> vagrantc: Do you mean, it copies /opt/ltsp/amd64/boot/pxelinux.cfg/ to /var/lib/tftpboot/ltsp/amd64/ ?
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| 19:43 | <vagrantc> qqqqqqqqq9: yes
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| 19:44 | qqqqqqqqq9: but any time you update a kernel or initramfs in the chroot, or update any package that triggers an update, the files in /opt/ltsp/... will also get updated by /usr/share/ltsp/update-kernels
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| 19:45 | qqqqqqqqq9: so, do you just want to regenerate them, or do you want to customize them?
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| 19:47 | <qqqqqqqqq9> My problem is, i don't have an /opt/ltsp/amd64/boot/pxelinux.cfg/ but an /boot/pxelinux.cfg/ . The latter should not be generated, should it?
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| 19:48 | <vagrantc> qqqqqqqqq9: are you using ltsp-pnp methods?
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| 19:48 | !ltsp-pnp | echo qqqqqqqqq9
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| 19:48 | <ltsp> qqqqqqqqq9 ltsp-pnp: ltsp-pnp is an alternative (upstream) method to maintain LTSP installations for thin and fat clients that doesn't involve chroots: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/ltsp-pnp
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| 19:51 | <qqqqqqqqq9> I think I mixed something up, i tried to use the chroot-part of https://wiki.debian.org/LTSP/Howto but with dnsmasq and nbd.
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| 20:42 | <qqqqqqqqq9> ok, I'm giving up for today. Thanks
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