IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.libera.chat (webchat)
Channel log from 21 February 2010 (all times are UTC)
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| 06:24 | <alkisg> pem725, how are your fat clients today? :)
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| 08:59 | <pem725> alkisg: clients seem to hang just after mount commands fail. I am checking into this further.
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| 09:51 | <pem725> alkisg: my fat clients won't boot. They hang after a few mount errors - status 1 - saying they were already mounted.
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| 09:51 | do you think this is a problem with nfs competing with ssh?
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| 09:51 | <alkisg> pem725: that's Usual", not the actual error
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| 09:51 | Ubuntu doesn't use nfs by dfault
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| 09:51 | default
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| 09:51 | So try to remove "quiet splash" from /var/lib/tftpboot/ltsp/i386/pxelinux.cfg/default, to better see any error messages
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| 09:52 | <pem725> yeah, I might have gotten my instructions messed up and installed nfs and setup my exports. I will kill that just in case.
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| 09:52 | ok
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| 09:56 | alkisg: I got it to boot and now it boots to a login prompt.
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| 09:57 | <alkisg> X login or console login?
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| 09:57 | <pem725> I did two things...stopped nfs (and commented out export line) and got rid of quiet splash.
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| 09:57 | console login
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| 09:58 | <alkisg> That might be a graphics driver problem. What graphics cards do you clients have?
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| 09:58 | <pem725> nvidia
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| 09:58 | I used this command to setup the fatclient:
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| 09:58 | <alkisg> Lucid or Karmic?
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| 09:58 | <pem725> ltsp-build-client --arch i386 --fat-client --fat-client xubuntu-desktop
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| 09:58 | <alkisg> Ouch
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| 09:58 | <pem725> would that be sufficient to get me an x login?
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| 09:59 | Karmic
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| 09:59 | uh oh...
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| 09:59 | <alkisg> I don't think anyone has tried xubuntu-desktop with fat clients...
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| 09:59 | What DM does xubuntu have?
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| 09:59 | <pem725> xfce
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| 09:59 | <alkisg> (display manager, like gdm or kdm)
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| 10:00 | <pem725> oh, sorry...usually gdm
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| 10:00 | <alkisg> Ah, if it's gdm it should work then
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| 10:00 | <pem725> I probably need to install gdm in the chroot, right?
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| 10:00 | <alkisg> If xubuntu-desktop depends on that, it should already be installed
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| 10:00 | Is that the actual command line that you used?
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| 10:00 | <pem725> I can start from scratch with gnome just to get one up and going.
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| 10:00 | yes
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| 10:00 | <alkisg> Or did you use --fat-client-desktop ?
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| 10:01 | <pem725> nope, I used the one I pasted into the IRC
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| 10:01 | <alkisg> Then you have an ubuntu desktop :)
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| 10:01 | The command line parameter to select a xubuntu desktop would be --fat-client-desktop
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| 10:01 | OK, so: sudo gedit /var/lib/tftpboot/ltsp/i386/lts.conf
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| 10:01 | In that, put:
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| 10:02 | [Default]
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| 10:02 | XSERVER=vesa
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| 10:02 | And reboot your client...
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| 10:02 | <pem725> OK
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| 10:04 | still gives me a console login.
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| 10:05 | <alkisg> What's your ltsp version? dpkg -l ltsp-server
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| 10:05 | <pem725> I will start over with the build client just to make sure I get this right.
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| 10:05 | 5.2-0ubuntu2~ppa1~karmic1
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| 10:06 | what command should I use to build the fat client?
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| 10:06 | <alkisg> Let me give you an ltsp-build-client.conf
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| 10:06 | <pem725> ok
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| 10:07 | <alkisg> sudo mkdir -p /etc/ltsp
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| 10:07 | sudo gedit /etc/ltsp/ltsp-build-client.conf
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| 10:07 | And paste those lines:
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| 10:07 | ARCH=i386
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| 10:07 | FAT_CLIENT_DESKTOPS="ubuntu-desktop"
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| 10:07 | MOUNT_PACKAGE_DIR="/var/cache/apt/archives"
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| 10:08 | Then just run sudo ltsp-build-client with no parameters at all.
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| 10:08 | Do you have an non-english locale?
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| 10:09 | If so, you might also add something like LOCALE="el_GR.UTF-8"
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| 10:09 | <pem725> no non-english locale.
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| 10:09 | <alkisg> OK
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| 10:09 | Check the ltsp-build-client output for any errors
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| 10:09 | <pem725> I am rm -rf my previous fat client.
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| 10:10 | <alkisg> OK
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| 10:11 | <pem725> so when it builds the fatclient, does it put in soft links to existing software installed on the server or must I install the software I want to run locally into the chroot?
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| 10:13 | <alkisg> It installs about what you can find in a live ubuntu cd
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| 10:14 | <pem725> got it.
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| 10:14 | <alkisg> So if you want more, you must install it manually after the building is done
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| 10:14 | <pem725> when I want say google-chrome, I need to install it in the chroot, right?
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| 10:14 | <alkisg> Right
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| 10:15 | <pem725> I'm going to try another client than my previous this go around.
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| 10:15 | <alkisg> You could also add a LATE_PACKAGES in ltsp-build-client.conf
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| 10:15 | <pem725> the client I kept getting a console login was an eeepc
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| 10:15 | <alkisg> And add any packages you wanted to install there
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| 10:15 | <pem725> ah, perfect.
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| 10:15 | that would be great.
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| 10:16 | <alkisg> And EARLY_MIRRORS for any mirrors (like, for chrome)
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| 10:16 | <pem725> do you suggest I build clients from scratch when updating or just apt-get update/upgrade in the chroot?
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| 10:17 | <alkisg> update/upgrade
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| 10:17 | Unless you upgrade to lucid, where a new ltsp-build-client would be better.
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| 10:17 | <pem725> OK
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| 10:17 | how far is lucid along now?
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| 10:18 | is it ready for install in a production environment?
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| 10:18 | <alkisg> Nope. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LucidReleaseSchedule
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| 10:18 | <pem725> k
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| 10:18 | <alkisg> I do work with it on my laptop, it's stable enough, but it's still alpha, not in any way ready for production
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| 10:18 | <pem725> good to know.
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| 10:18 | I usually hold back from upgrades for about 4-6 months.
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| 10:18 | <alkisg> But for fat client tests it might be more stable than karmic :D
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| 10:18 | <pem725> post release.
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| 10:19 | yeah, that is why I asked.
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| 10:19 | I figured it might be the case.
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| 10:19 | does order matter in the ltsp-build-client.conf file?
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| 10:19 | <alkisg> No
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| 10:19 | <pem725> OK
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| 10:19 | <alkisg> Hmmm maybe I should write a small wiki page for fat clients...
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| 10:20 | <pem725> that would be great.
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| 10:20 | if you need someone to try out your steps, I would be a happy and willing participant.
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| 10:21 | <alkisg> OK, I'll do that now.
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| 10:21 | <pem725> is there a man page or some online docs for ltsp-build-client.conf?
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| 10:21 | <alkisg> I've made a GUI for building fat client chroots and managing them, but it's mostly in Greek... :-/
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| 10:21 | Nope
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| 10:22 | <pem725> I always wanted to learn Greek.
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| 10:22 | probably not the best time to learn though...
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| 10:22 | <alkisg> Heh :)
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| 10:22 | OK, trying the non-GUI way, to write the wiki page...
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| 10:23 | <pem725> when I specify LATE_PACKAGES, do I space separate the packages or put them in quotes, or what?
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| 10:23 | <johnny> alkisg, considered trying to see if packagekit could use a chroot to install into?
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| 10:23 | or even ubuntu software center?
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| 10:24 | <alkisg> pem725: space separated
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| 10:24 | johnny: I've never tried packagekit...
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| 10:24 | <pem725> alkisg: no quotes, right?
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| 10:24 | <johnny> imo.. if you want to make it easy to install apps into a chroot, you should use the same gui tools that are on the server
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| 10:24 | <alkisg> pem725: LATE_PACKAGES="package1 package2"
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| 10:24 | <pem725> ah, perfect.
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| 10:25 | <johnny> alkisg, and if you use packagekit directly.. you get tools that work on many distros
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| 10:25 | <pem725> how about for MIRRORS?
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| 10:25 | same?
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| 10:25 | <alkisg> johnny: I think the best way would be to use a different partition on the server, and *boot with it normally* to manage the chroot :)
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| 10:25 | <johnny> including all supported distros by ltsp
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| 10:25 | sure.. except this time.. no booting
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| 10:25 | that's a big deal imo
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| 10:25 | would be better if you could say
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| 10:25 | $packagekitapi --root=/path/to/chroot
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| 10:25 | <alkisg> nbd can even export the new partition directly, so no ltsp-update-image anymore
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| 10:25 | <johnny> or perhaps even a wrapper around it
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| 10:26 | partitions suck too
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| 10:26 | too much effort for the user
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| 10:26 | unless they were lvm by default
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| 10:26 | <alkisg> A .vmdk (vbox disk) would be fine as well...
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| 10:26 | And they could manage it with vbox
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| 10:26 | <johnny> except that's not open is it..
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| 10:26 | oh.. wait.. i think i have it backwards
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| 10:26 | <alkisg> The format? I'd bet it is...
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| 10:26 | <johnny> for some reason i was thinking vmware..
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| 10:26 | not virtualbox :)
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| 10:27 | <alkisg> Even lxc (linux containers) could be useful for managing the chroot
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| 10:27 | <johnny> you could.. but i think trying to use the open tools we have right now woulc be good
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| 10:27 | and would make packagekit more useful..
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| 10:28 | <johnny> not just for fat clients too alkisg ..
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| 10:28 | but regular ltsp clients with local apps
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| 10:28 | which you can't rely on booting from to be able to install anything
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| 10:29 | <alkisg> johnny: is packagekit available for ubuntu right now?
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| 10:29 | Or is it something that needs work to get integrated?
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| 10:29 | <johnny> thought it was..
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| 10:29 | it works on debian a bit
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| 10:29 | it's nowhere near as good at apt directly
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| 10:29 | <alkisg> Well it'd be better if we relied on *existing* technologies :D
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| 10:29 | <johnny> but for just installing and removing packages
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| 10:30 | it works for installing and removing software on multiple distros
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| 10:30 | including gentoo now i heard
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| 10:30 | i heard that months ago actually..
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| 10:31 | alkisg, packagekit is just a wrapper for common functions around the distro specific ways of doing it
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| 10:31 | it also integrates with policykit
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| 10:31 | <alkisg> For me, fat clients should be managed from a GUI, like vbox or another server partition. That would allow the admin to even use sabayon, gconf etc to manage his chroot.
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| 10:31 | I don't see any reason for adding another layer of management
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| 10:32 | <johnny> sure.. but you're forgetting regular chroots..
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| 10:32 | with localapps
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| 10:32 | <alkisg> I don't really care about localapps. What can they offer, that fat clients cannot?
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| 10:33 | IMHO when fat clients are more mature, more people will stop using localapps and switch to fat clients
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| 10:33 | <johnny> isn't there a ram constraint issue?
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| 10:33 | <alkisg> I don't think there's any difference in firefox running as a localapp, as opposed to running in a thin client
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| 10:33 | Both would need 512 M
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| 10:34 | <johnny> wait.. you're saying a standard ltsp thin client setup with the only local app being firefox..
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| 10:34 | is no worse on ram usage than a full fat client?
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| 10:35 | <alkisg> Pretty much. Firefox needs 512 Mb. 50 more or less don't really make a difference, I think.
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| 10:35 | It *would* make a difference for other localapps, like sip phones, that are not so memory hungry as firefox
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| 10:35 | <johnny> and what if people also want to use openoffice at the same time?
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| 10:35 | what would you do then?
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| 10:35 | use ltsp-remoteapps instead?
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| 10:36 | <alkisg> No, fat clients for >= 512 Mb, thin clients for less
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| 10:36 | <johnny> so you can really run both at the same time ?
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| 10:36 | in 512? and be OK?
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| 10:36 | with flash?
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| 10:36 | <alkisg> Yes, with 512 Mb and a swap partition it's OK.
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| 10:36 | I'd only use localapps for light multimedia apps
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| 10:37 | (like the sip phone I said above)
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| 10:37 | <alkisg> But for firefox + flash + openoffice, I don't think they're better than fat clients...
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| 10:40 | <pem725> alkisg: I'm getting closer. Now it is just hanging at a black screen.
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| 10:40 | I will check the terminal on the thin client to see what is up.
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| 10:41 | <markit> hi, I've tried to upgrade my client chroot, following the usual steps (chroot, mount proc, export LTSP_HANDLE_DAEMONS=false, upgrade)
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| 10:41 | but I get this error when upgrading packages
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| 10:42 | Can not write log, openpty() failed (/dev/pts not mounted?)
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| 10:42 | <alkisg> You can ignore that.
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| 10:42 | <markit> is it normal? what did I did wrong?
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| 10:42 | <pem725> alkisg: failed to connect to NBD server.
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| 10:42 | <markit> debian sid, ltsp 5.2
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| 10:43 | alkisg: thanks :) btw, no solution so far for the atom thin clients, sigh
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| 10:43 | <alkisg> pem725: at what point? any messages before or after that?
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| 10:43 | <johnny> alkisg, hmm.. i'd like to give this a shot
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| 10:43 | thanks for the info.. i was assuming i couldn't handle it
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| 10:43 | it*
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| 10:43 | <markit> alkisg: we also buy some mini-itx with intel atom, and they fail at boot also
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| 10:43 | <johnny> I just picked up 512mb pc133.. for some old p3s in the 700-1ghz range
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| 10:44 | should be good enough right?
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| 10:44 | <alkisg> markit: could you try with an ubuntu kernel (in case it has any firmware that the debian one doesn't have by default)?
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| 10:44 | <johnny> they are at my store, just need to install :)
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| 10:44 | <markit> seems that having a certain hardware work with GNU/Linux does not make sure it works with ltsp also, and it's very oddy
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| 10:44 | <pem725> alkisg: yes, it says Negotiation: Error: server closed connection right after it ran /scripts/nfs-top with success.
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| 10:44 | <alkisg> johnny: fat clients behave like "real" clients with a tad slower hard disk. So 512 would be enough, but of course not lightning fast...
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| 10:44 | <markit> alkisg: do you mean download in my sqeeze client a kernel taken from ubuntu repository? will it work? is easy to do?
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| 10:44 | <alkisg> pem725: sudo netstat -nap | grep 2000
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| 10:45 | <pem725> tcp 0 0 0.0.0.0:2000 0.0.0.0:* LISTEN 1770/inetd
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| 10:45 | <alkisg> pem725: anything weird with your dhcp? Is the ltsp server also the dhcp server?
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| 10:46 | Or do you have an external dhcp server around?
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| 10:46 | <pem725> yes, both the same ltsp=dhcp server
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| 10:46 | <alkisg> markit: I'm not sure how to try that. E.g. you could try with an ubuntu live cd, I guess..
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| 10:46 | <pem725> the only thing weird is my internal ip addresses and the fact that I use fixed ip addresses for many of my clients.
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| 10:46 | <markit> btw, is there an easy way to scan the subnet for available dhcp servers? I've tried to scan for dhcp port, but I have it triggered also by "not active" dhcp servers
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| 10:47 | <pem725> I use 192.169.100.x internally.
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| 10:47 | <markit> alkisg: I could install ltsp and configure in my laptop (ubuntu 9.10) and use it as ltsp server just for experiment
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| 10:47 | or create a virtual machine (KVM) with ubuntu
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| 10:48 | I'm very frustrated and disappointed for this problems, since atom based hardware is becoming common
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| 10:48 | <pem725> alkisg: any thoughts on the error?
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| 10:49 | <markit> btw, anyone here has a atom based, possibly gb ethernet, client working?
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| 10:49 | <alkisg> pem725: sudo gedit /var/lib/tftpboot/ltsp/i386/pxelinux.cfg/default
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| 10:49 | pem725: in the place of "quiet splash" there, put "break=mount" instead (no quotes)
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| 10:49 | That will get you a prompt right before the nbd error. You can try mounting manually there.
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| 10:49 | <pem725> ok
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| 10:50 | when I get the prompt, how do I mount it manually?
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| 10:51 | <alkisg> nbd-client server-ip 2000 /dev/nbd0
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| 10:52 | markit: well my daughter's atom booted fine with no problems at all.
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| 10:52 | <pem725> alkisg: I get an error saying Server closed connection.
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| 10:53 | <alkisg> pem725: any firewalls on your server?
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| 10:53 | <pem725> I just did a clean install.
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| 10:53 | <alkisg> A clean LTSP install, or a clean Karmic install?
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| 10:54 | <pem725> I just tried to restart the nbd-server and it said "Cound not parse config file: Could not open config file"
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| 10:54 | <alkisg> pem725: no, don't start it manually, it starts from inetd
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| 10:54 | <pem725> both a clean Karmic and a clean LTSP.
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| 10:54 | OK
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| 10:54 | I won't try to restart it.
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| 10:54 | <alkisg> To restart it you need to do: sudo service openbsd-inetd restart
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| 10:55 | <markit> alkisg: what ethernet hardware does it has? what distro? debian? version of the client chroot? squeeze?
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| 10:55 | <markit> I'm not sure, but I could say that with previous ltsp my netbook booted also
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| 10:56 | I've upgraded because new ethernet nic harware was not supported by older kernel
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| 10:56 | <pem725> alkisg: I restarted inetd and still no joy.
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| 10:56 | <markit> but now seems that netbook nor new hardware can boot anymore
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| 10:56 | <alkisg> markit, ubuntu, multiple versions, all booted ok. I don't remember the NIC, but I think it isn't atheros
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| 10:57 | <markit> alkisg: ok, I will try ubuntu then. Any debian packager/manteiner around?
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| 10:57 | <alkisg> pem725: weird. Can you try nbd-client locally on your server?
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| 10:58 | pem725: is the image there? ls -l /opt/ltsp/images/i386.img
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| 10:58 | pem725: also, try `grep nbd /etc/inetd.conf`
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| 11:00 | <pem725> alkisg: AHA!
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| 11:00 | I found the problem.
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| 11:01 | in the inetd.conf file, the image file was specified as my first attempt at the fat client fati386.
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| 11:02 | <alkisg> Ah
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| 11:02 | OK, fix it and restart openbsd-inetd
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| 11:02 | * alkisg reboots, brb... | |
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| 11:05 | <pem725> alkisg: back to a console prompt.
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| 11:05 | so at least it works again but no X login.
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| 11:06 | <alkisg> pem725: how big is your image? ls -l /opt/ltsp/images/i386.img
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| 11:06 | ...because I think it finished *too* quickly :D
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| 11:06 | <pem725> 624M
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| 11:09 | <pem725> alkisg: is 624M about the right size? As far as speed, my computer has a quad-processor with 16 GB of RAM..
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| 11:10 | it better be quick!
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| 11:11 | <alkisg> I'm using much larger chroots, I'm not sure if 624 is OK. Could be.
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| 11:11 | <alkisg> Try: sudo chroot /opt/ltsp/i386 dpkg -l gdm
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| 11:12 | And also with ldm, to verify that both of them are there.
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| 11:12 | * alkisg is affected by the dreaded "Enter freezes X" Lucid bug :( | |
| 11:12 | <pem725> alkisg: both are installed
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| 11:13 | <alkisg> pem725: sudo gedit /var/lib/tftpboot/ltsp/i386/lts.conf
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| 11:13 | <pem725> another reason to steer clear of Lucid for now.
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| 11:13 | <alkisg> SCREEN_02=shell
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| 11:13 | (under [Default] )
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| 11:13 | That should get you a console on the client, on the next reboot
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| 11:13 | In that console, try: X -configure
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| 11:14 | <pem725> I didn't setup a root password. Is that still necessary?
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| 11:14 | <alkisg> Not with SCREEN_02=shell
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| 11:14 | <pem725> OK
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| 11:14 | <alkisg> It's only necessary without it
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| 11:14 | <pem725> got it.
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| 11:16 | <alkisg> Also try looking at the xorg logs at /var/log/Xorg.0.log, brb.
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| 11:16 | <pem725> alkisg: I just ran X -configure and then tried to start X with the new xorg.conf.new file and it hangs with a black screen.
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| 11:16 | k
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| 11:18 | <alkisg> pem725: does it *hang* there, or does e.g. the keyboard work?
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| 11:18 | Can you switch to vt1 with alt+ctrl+f1?
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| 11:18 | <pem725> the keyboard still works.
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| 11:18 | it says "Setting master"
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| 11:18 | and then...
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| 11:18 | <alkisg> OK, then try both SCREEN_02=shell and SCREEN_07=ldm
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| 11:19 | This way you'll be able to inspect from the shell what happens on ldm
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| 11:19 | E.g. run a `ps` etc
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| 11:19 | <pem725> OK
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| 11:19 | <alkisg> And another test, to verify that this isn't a fat client problem, you can set LTSP_FATCLIENT=false in lts.conf.
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| 11:20 | <pem725> rebooting now.
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| 11:20 | ah, great.
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| 11:20 | <alkisg> This will use the chroot as a thin client chroot.
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| 11:20 | <pem725> I will try that too.
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| 11:20 | <alkisg> ok, brb
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| 11:22 | <pem725> alkisg: on vt 7, I get tty=/dev/tty2
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| 11:22 | expr: syntax error
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| 11:22 | and then a prompt.
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| 11:25 | alkisg: when I try the thin client (via LTSP_FATCLIENT=false) it works!
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| 11:26 | alkisg: whoa! there is something really bizarre. All the text and desktop are upside down and backwards.
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| 11:26 | I thought I was reading Russian at first.
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| 11:29 | <alkisg> pem725: ignore that, that's because you have intel client + nvidia drivers on the server
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| 11:29 | You can workaround it by disabling compiz
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| 11:30 | <pem725> yep, I just read your post on ubuntu bug page.
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| 11:30 | <alkisg> pem725: I'm worried about karmic incompatibilities... what ltsp version do you have in the chroot?
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| 11:31 | sudo chroot /opt/ltsp/i386 dpkg -l ltsp-client
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| 11:32 | <pem725> 5.1.90-0ubuntu3
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| 11:32 | <alkisg> Yeah, it wouldn't work with that :)
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| 11:32 | You need to add stgraber's repository to the chroot, and upgrade/update the image
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| 11:32 | <pem725> should I copy my sources to the chroot?
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| 11:32 | <alkisg> Do you want me to help with vnc?
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| 11:32 | <pem725> nah, I can get it.
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| 11:33 | <alkisg> OK. Either copy the sources, or use add-apt-repository.
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| 11:33 | sudo add-apt-repository ppa:stgraber, if you have add-apt-repository installed.
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| 11:35 | <pem725> OK, so the updates are installed now.
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| 11:35 | <alkisg> You also need sudo ltsp-update-image outside of the chroot
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| 11:35 | <pem725> yep
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| 11:35 | I'm on it right now....
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| 11:35 | <alkisg> Then, remove LTSP_FATCLIENT from lts.conf, and reboot the client
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| 11:38 | <pem725> YES!!!
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| 11:39 | alkisg: the system booted up and now has full access to the internet through firefox.
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| 11:40 | <alkisg> Goodies
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| 11:40 | pem725: ok, give it a try, and then give some feedback on whan can be improved :)
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| 11:41 | <pem725> alkisg: thanks, I will do just that. Also, I want to know how I can make sure that apps are indeed running locally versus on my server.
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| 11:41 | <alkisg> pem725: run a `ps -ef` on your server
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| 11:41 | <pem725> oh yeah, right.
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| 11:41 | silly me.
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| 11:41 | <alkisg> E.g. if you open firefox on the client, and run ps on the server, you should not be seeing it
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| 11:42 | <pem725> yep
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| 11:42 | got it.
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| 11:42 | troubleshooting sure does make me stupid sometimes.
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| 11:42 | thanks for all your help today.
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| 11:42 | <alkisg> pem725: also you'll see much better multimedia performance, e.g. full screen flash etc
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| 11:42 | <pem725> indeed.
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| 11:42 | <alkisg> *you'll need to install ubuntu-restricted-extras on the chroot for that
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| 11:43 | <pem725> alkisg: is sound now pushed off to the clients as opposed to distributing sound through pulse?
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| 11:43 | <alkisg> Now the client is running *everything* locally. It only uses /home/username from the server, nothing else (and of course the root, / with nbd)
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| 11:44 | So it's like a regular client, with a bit slower hard disk (depending on your network speed)
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| 11:44 | <pem725> wonderful!
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| 11:44 | gigabit with multiple NIC's on the server.
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| 11:44 | hopefully that will suffice.
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| 11:44 | <alkisg> I bet it will
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| 11:44 | <pem725> great
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| 11:44 | thanks again.
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| 11:44 | off to play with my new setup.
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| 11:44 | <alkisg> The server will cache all the nbd image on ram
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| 11:44 | <pem725> I owe you more than just thanks and feedback.
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| 11:45 | <alkisg> So after a few minutes, it should be as fast as a regular hard disk
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| 11:45 | You're welcome
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| 12:27 | <alkisg> vagrantc: Hi! (As you already know :)) I'm looking for a way to automatically enable NBD_SWAP for clients with low RAM. I've thought of a new way, which would be less intrusive: NBD_SWAP_THRESHOLD. So if someone sets that to 100 (Mb), NBD_SWAPping will be automatically enabled for clients below that: http://paste.ubuntu.com/381105/
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| 12:27 | <alkisg> On the usual case, where it's not set, the old behavior remains, so it shouldn't affect existing installations in any way.
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| 12:30 | <vagrantc> alkisg: looks good to me :)
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| 12:31 | alkisg: though preferably as 2-3 separate commits
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| 12:31 | alkisg: and one minor issue ...
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| 12:31 | <alkisg> Heh, ok
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| 12:31 | What issue?
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| 12:31 | <vagrantc> + if [ $(($memtotal)) -lt $(($NBD_SWAP_THRESHOLD)) ]; then
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| 12:31 | the $(()) are unecessary
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| 12:31 | <alkisg> They aren't :)
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| 12:31 | <vagrantc> or?
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| 12:32 | <alkisg> E.g. if memtotal is empty for some reason, this evaluates it to zero
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| 12:32 | The same for NBD_SWAP_THRESHOLD
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| 12:32 | If one sets it to "one hunderd megabytes" in lts.conf, it won't stop because of that
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| 12:32 | <vagrantc> i suppose so... it's a bit ugly...
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| 12:33 | <alkisg> I could sed it for digits only, and then do an "if [ -z ]", but it would be too long...
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| 12:34 | Maybe I could do it on a separate line, with a comment:
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| 12:35 | NBD_SWAP_THRESHOLD=$(($NBD_SWAP_THRESHOLD)) # Ensure that it is numerical only
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| 12:35 | <vagrantc> that makes it clearer what's going on, even if 2-3 lines longer that way
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| 12:35 | <alkisg> OK, will do it this way.
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| 12:36 | <vagrantc> ditto for memtotal
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| 12:36 | don't know if a better name for lts.conf than NBD_SWAP_THRESHOLD
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| 12:37 | <alkisg> I'm all ears!
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| 12:37 | * vagrantc contemplates | |
| 12:38 | <vagrantc> hard to come up with something ... but i could see people stumble over the spelling of THRESHOLD pretty easily...
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| 12:39 | * vagrantc contemplates more | |
| 12:39 | <johnny> /me is tired of freenode not support an xmpp interface :(
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| 12:40 | * vagrantc is happy to not be an xmpp interface | |
| 12:43 | <alkisg> We could also secretly allow the use of NBD_SWAP=100 instead of introducing a new variable :P
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| 12:45 | <vagrantc> evil
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| 12:50 | <alkisg> Strictly speaking, when using a threshold value, an additional true/false value isn't required
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| 12:51 | <vagrantc> true enough
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| 12:51 | <alkisg> So (if we had a good name for it) NBD_SWAP_THRESHOLD=0 (=the default) would mean "never swap", and NBD_SWAP_THRESHOLD=100000 would mean "always swap"...
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| 12:51 | ...and NBD_SWAP could be used only for some time, for compatibility
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| 12:53 | <vagrantc> well, strictly speaking... you could have 100,000 megs of swap
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| 12:53 | :)
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| 12:53 | er, ram
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| 12:54 | <alkisg> ...and 64mb more network swap would save you :D
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| 12:55 | I mean that it is possible to only use/document one variable for nbd swapping, in the long run
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| 12:56 | <vagrantc> well, i can see the temptation to just support one variable name...
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| 12:56 | <alkisg> Of course a web-based lts.conf would make that decision on the server, making the threshold value obsolete
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| 12:56 | <vagrantc> optionally on the server
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| 12:56 | it still could spit out stuff processed on the client
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| 13:29 | <alkisg> Maybe I should just submit it as NBD_SWAP_THRESHOLD... it will take some time until people start using it, so if we or some other devs come up with a better idea, we can change it in the mean time.
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| 13:34 | <vagrantc> alkisg: works for me :)
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| 15:17 | <stgraber> http://www.stgraber.org/2010/02/21/ltsp-52-out
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| 15:17 | please poke me if I forgot anything major :)
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| 15:50 | <alkisg> stgraber: on Lucid, SCREEN_02=shell / SCREEN_07=ldm gets me ldm on vt1! Is that a known problem?
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| 15:50 | <stgraber> I believe I saw it already but haven't looked at it closely yet ...
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| 15:51 | it might be X doing something weird though, I recently had issues switching VT with lucid
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| 15:54 | LTSP announce waiting on slashdot, lxer and linuxtoday. If someone can review/vote on one of these, please do ;)
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| 15:55 | <alkisg> Woohoo! :)
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| 15:57 | <stgraber> yeah, with the few recent announcements I did I now have a good list of places to nag to get better news coverage ;)
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| 15:57 | the ltsp-cluster announcement got over 15000 visits :)
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| 15:58 | <alkisg> I also linked to your announcement from my greek-teachers forum ;)
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| 15:58 | <stgraber> and the LTSP 5.2 announcement is currently the topic with the most vote on slashdot for the Linux category, so it's quite likely that my server will be dead in a few hours ;)
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| 15:59 | <jcastro> people read slashdot still?
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| 16:00 | <stgraber> jcastro: looks like it
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| 16:02 | alkisg: regarding r1682, any reason you disabled compiz for everyone ? that's making the behavior different from what happens with a regular thin client. Also, can you make disabling the lock screen a default setting and not mandatory ?
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| 16:03 | alkisg: at the office, my fat clients users actually use the lock screen feature. The just su to root and change their password, then it works.
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| 16:03 | <alkisg> stgraber: I'm not sure the default settings work
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| 16:05 | stgraber: they're doing that on every login?
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| 16:06 | <stgraber> alkisg: well, in their case every login means once a week, so yes ;)
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| 16:06 | <alkisg> OK. Sure, no problem with me. I'm also looking on how to prevent suspension and hibernation, but polkit-1 isn't ready yet
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| 16:07 | https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/upower/+bug/432598
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| 16:07 | <stgraber> strangely enough, suspend works correctly here ;)
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| 16:07 | it suspends and resumes quite well. Haven't tried suspending for hours though.
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| 16:07 | <alkisg> nbd-proxy works wonders ;)
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| 16:07 | <stgraber> yeah, as long as you don't rebuild your .img in the meantime, it should work well ;)
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| 16:07 | <alkisg> stgraber: feel free to change whatever defaults/mandatory settings you want, I just wanted to get rid of the gconftool-2 call
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| 16:07 | <stgraber> seems like Linux doesn't like you changing block devices on resume :)
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| 16:09 | alkisg: will you hate me if I drop that metacity change ? :) I'd really like to have compiz start in a similar way for both thin and fat clients :)
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| 16:09 | <alkisg> No of course not - I'm still wondering myself why I put it there - just because I've heard too many compiz problems lately, I imagine...
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| 16:09 | <stgraber> ok :)
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| 16:09 | <huayra> I am trying to find a list of supported Thin Client models. Is there any?
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| 16:10 | <alkisg> stgraber: we could also make an Ubuntu specific plugin to generate a shadow entry, for the users to be able to authenticate for fat clients
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| 16:10 | <huayra> Thinking of LTSP-Cluster
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| 16:10 | <alkisg> stgraber: vagrantc doesn't really like the idea of keeping a hash locally. But I don't really think of it as a security concern, so if you also want it, I can put an option for it in ldm...
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| 16:11 | <huayra> I know of Multiframe which supports many thin clients and has a very small footprint and specific support of some thin clients. But I need to know how LTSP is doing in that front
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| 16:11 | <stgraber> alkisg: we can probably do that with a small ldm hack, though I don't like the idea of having your password stored in a variable and hashed ... too many things that can go wrong (and your password exposed)
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| 16:11 | <alkisg> stgraber: ldm will only expose the hash to shadow, not the password anywhere
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| 16:11 | <stgraber> huayra: ideally, take something using an Intel Atom CPU, with >= 512MB of RAM and Intel chipsets.
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| 16:12 | huayra: the manufacturer isn't very important as long as it's the same chipsets.
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| 16:12 | <moldy> i can confirm that atoms work great
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| 16:12 | <stgraber> huayra: you may have some success with VIA-based thin clients though but in my experience, Atoms one are cheaper and work a lot better
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| 16:12 | <alkisg> stgraber: for me, if someone has root access on a TC, it'd be much easier for him to install a keylogger than decrypt the hash :D
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| 16:12 | <moldy> with enough ram, an atom will allow you to run firefox with flash plugin locally
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| 16:12 | which is great
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| 16:13 | <stgraber> and with a bit more ram, you can even run everything locally if you want ;) (fat clients !)
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| 16:13 | <alkisg> stgraber: it can also be an lts.conf option, so that the admin explicitly states that he's ok with that.
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| 16:13 | <huayra> stgraber, Norway has the highest density of Thin Clients in the world and they are bought already
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| 16:13 | <stgraber> actually, I'm doing fat clients with 512MB of RAM here (on a Symbio thin client, atom based)
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| 16:13 | <moldy> stgraber: yeah, i don't want to do that, though :)
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| 16:14 | <huayra> http://multiframe.projects.linpro.no/wiki/CompatibilityList
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| 16:14 | I need support down to 64MB RAM
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| 16:14 | is that even possible with LTSP ? Or can you tweak it so it can be so?
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| 16:15 | <alkisg> 64mb cliens work ok with ltsp
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| 16:15 | <stgraber> huayra: these are mostly VIA-based with low-memory. That should work as long as you don't want anything running locally and don't expect to be able to use youtube or other accelerated content (or 3D apps).
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| 16:15 | <moldy> it's possible with ltsp, you just won't be able to run much stuff locally
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| 16:16 | youtube actually worked pretty well non-locally here
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| 16:16 | even with a via client
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| 16:16 | <huayra> stgraber, these are ment to be "diskless" clients mostly. So besides a strip down Firefox under X nothing more than RDP/ICA or similar stuff will run on them
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| 16:16 | <stgraber> moldy: yeah but don't expect to have 100 users on an application server while watching youtube ;)
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| 16:16 | <moldy> right, for 100 users, you'd need more servers :)
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| 16:17 | 10 users worked ok here before i switched to local firefox
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| 16:17 | <stgraber> moldy: with localapps I can get up to 150 users on a server and the network link is only gigabit from the DC to the school. The network would be too slow for flash running on the application server and I would only be able to have 30 or so users if I didn't have localapps.
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| 16:18 | <moldy> yeah, the localapps support is a great step forward for ltsp
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| 16:18 | <stgraber> moldy: well, my current deployment is of 5000 thin clients on 50 servers :) changing the ratio from 100/1 to 10/1 would be an issue ;)
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| 16:19 | <moldy> i see
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| 16:20 | <stgraber> also we noticed that if someone is watching a fullscreen flash video with a remote firefox, it can go up to 100Mb/s of bandwidth for only one thin client ...
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| 16:20 | <huayra> moldy and stgraber tahnks for the insight ;)
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| 16:20 | <stgraber> huayra: np
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| 16:20 | <moldy> yeah, fullscreen is a no-no with a 100mbit link
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| 16:20 | <huayra> I guess if the new LTSP release has a nice GUI to manage this stuff then Multiframe has no reason to live in a sense
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| 16:20 | <moldy> it works somewhat ok with gigabit though. we need faster networks ;p
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| 16:22 | <highvoltage> don't forget to vote for the slashdot entry for LTSP 5.2 at http://linux.slashdot.org/story/10/02/21/225233/After-2-Years-of-Development-LTSP-52-Is-Out !
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| 16:25 | <stgraber> huayra: the new ltsp-cluster will have a nice gui. Unfortunately I can't call our current GUI "nice" but at least we have one ;)
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| 16:25 | huayra: https://ltsp-control01.stgraber.org/loadbalancer/overview if you want to look at what we're working on (that's the loadbalancer pool management page)
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| 16:26 | (feel free to change whatever you want on it, it's just a demo :))
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| 16:26 | <huayra> I will take a look. I know and work with the people behind Multiframe and to be honest I think is time to rethink the product
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| 16:27 | I will write them an email and see what they say
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| 16:30 | <stgraber> And we are on slashdot !!! http://linux.slashdot.org/
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| 16:37 | <alkisg> moldy: full screen is fine with 100 mbps and divx movies, though
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| 16:37 | ...but it needs ~50mbps, so that only works for 2 clients :P :D
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| 16:39 | <highvoltage> alkisg: have you ever played with multicast?
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| 16:39 | <stgraber> alkisg: divx usually works because it's using the XV extension so less bandwidth is used (scaling is done on the thin client instead of the server), flash is sending raw X11 at the fullscreen resolution
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| 16:39 | <alkisg> highvoltage: a little. It was difficult to setup, but I think I once got it working, I believe with vlc?
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| 16:40 | <stgraber> highvoltage: we tried to play with multicast at some point, though the issue is to have the customer's routers and switches configured properly so it works ...
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| 16:40 | <alkisg> stgraber: yup, and if YV12 is used, it only needs 12 bits per pixel, not 24/32...
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| 16:40 | <stgraber> alkisg: yeah VLC is the easiest to use to setup multicast broadcast
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| 16:41 | <alkisg> That's the good thing with HTML5... it'll give us full screen youtube ;)
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| 16:42 | <stgraber> indeed, I've been testing it with Google chrome on youtube, works quite well
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| 16:42 | <highvoltage> nice :)
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| 16:45 | <anivair_> at the moment I'm still troubleshooting the twinkle issue some of you may recall from earlier. Seems every time I log out and back in the sound settings that I changed vanish. Is that normal? Can I fix it?
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| 17:41 | <jammcq> stgraber: ping
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| 18:29 | <moldy> alkisg: i was talking 100mb per client :)
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| 20:20 | <ericdc> Amazing!
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| 20:21 | ltsp 5.2 rocks!
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| 23:02 | <khris4> hello everyone
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| 23:25 | anyone here
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