IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.libera.chat (webchat)

Channel log from 26 March 2008 (all times are UTC)

00:21	chup has joined #ltsp
00:23	chupa has quit IRC
01:05	F-GT has quit IRC
01:05	chupa has joined #ltsp
01:07	chup has quit IRC
01:10	F-GT has joined #ltsp
01:10	captain_magnus has quit IRC
01:11	captain_magnus has joined #ltsp
01:30	basanta has quit IRC
01:35	basanta has joined #ltsp
01:45	ogra_cmpc has joined #ltsp
02:01	plamengr has joined #ltsp
02:06	chup has joined #ltsp
02:06	chupa has quit IRC
02:11	deavid has joined #ltsp
02:14	basanta has quit IRC
02:21	basanta_ has joined #ltsp
02:31	oblek has joined #ltsp
02:39	sepski is now known as sep
02:41	deavid has quit IRC
02:42	basanta_ has quit IRC
02:44	deavid has joined #ltsp
02:51	oblek has quit IRC
03:01	chup has quit IRC
03:02	chup has joined #ltsp
03:07	praveer_cool has joined #ltsp
03:19	<Pascal_1> hello
03:21	hello klausade
03:33	mikkel has joined #ltsp
03:41	<Pascal_1> salut !
03:47	bobby_C has joined #ltsp
03:57	<Pascal_1> klausade, did you find something in my chroot ?
04:18	chupa has joined #ltsp
04:19	chup has quit IRC
04:36	chupa has quit IRC
04:36	chupa has joined #ltsp
04:42	plamengr has quit IRC
04:51	praveer_cool has quit IRC
04:57	praveer_cool has joined #ltsp
04:58	ogra_cmpcng has joined #ltsp
05:20	spectra has quit IRC
05:21	chup has joined #ltsp
05:22	Pascal_1 has quit IRC
05:22	Pascal_1 has joined #ltsp
05:23	Q-FUNK has joined #ltsp
05:24	chupa has quit IRC
05:24	ogra_cmpcng has quit IRC
05:27	subir has joined #ltsp
05:34	ogra_cmpcng has joined #ltsp
05:36	loather-work has quit IRC
05:36	<Pascal_1> klausade, ?
05:37	<klausade> Pascal_1: sorry, bit busy here. but you are in the loop.
05:37	<Pascal_1> ok ;-)
05:40	ogra_cmpcng has quit IRC
05:41	loather-work has joined #ltsp
05:44	vagrantc has joined #ltsp
05:45	* vagrantc waves to ogra_cmpc
05:45	<ogra_cmpc> hey
05:45	* ogra_cmpc blushes ashamed
05:46	<vagrantc> ogra_cmpc: good to see you :)
05:46	<ogra_cmpc> good to be back :)
06:08	<rjune> howdy ogra
06:09	let me be the second to say wb
06:12	subir_ has joined #ltsp
06:12	<ogra_cmpc> :)
06:12	basanta has joined #ltsp
06:14	subir has quit IRC
06:17	TelnetManta has quit IRC
06:19	chupa has joined #ltsp
06:19	chup has quit IRC
06:23	tux_440volt has joined #ltsp
06:33	ogra_cmpc has quit IRC
06:34	ogra_cmpc has joined #ltsp
06:36	Grejao has joined #ltsp
06:36	<Grejao> Hi all...
06:37	can i use ltsp to install a new terminal server and run windows applications under wine ?
06:38	<vagrantc> Grejao: if the applications work well under wine, probably.
06:39	<Grejao> hummm
06:39	great
06:39	<vagrantc> Grejao: if they're very multimedia rich, it may have issues.
06:39	<Grejao> thianks :)
06:39	<vagrantc> i.e. video, sound, etc.
06:39	Grejao: for the most part, anything that works well on a linux desktop will work well on an ltsp thin-client.
06:40	<Grejao> no no,,, only delphi applications,,, but some applications have oracle client
06:40	ok...
06:40	what's the best distribuition to install ltsp?
06:40	<vagrantc> !bestdistro
06:40	<ltspbot> vagrantc: Error: "bestdistro" is not a valid command.
06:40	<vagrantc> !bestltspdistro
06:40	<ltspbot> vagrantc: "bestltspdistro" is whatever you prefer
06:41	<vagrantc> Grejao: ubuntu and debian have ltsp5 integrated. fedora, (open)suse and gentoo are actively working on it.
06:41	<rjune> !gentoo
06:41	<ltspbot> rjune: Error: "gentoo" is not a valid command.
06:42	<rjune> :-/
06:42	wrong channel
06:42	<vagrantc> Grejao: so it depends on which distro you're most familiar with
06:42	<rjune> Gentoo is for ricers
06:43	<Grejao> hehehehe hummm ok... vagrantc yes, i was seeing at ltsp site, i think that i will use debian.
06:43	<vagrantc> !debian
06:43	<ltspbot> vagrantc: "debian" is is a GNU/Linux based operating system that makes an excellent LTSP server. You can find it at http://www.debian.org. for information about LTSP on debian see http://wiki.debian.org/LTSP
06:43	<rjune> !fedora
06:43	<ltspbot> rjune: Error: "fedora" is not a valid command.
06:43	<rjune> !ubuntu
06:43	<ltspbot> rjune: "ubuntu" is a Debian based GNU/Linux distrubution that includes a Ubuntu specific version of LTSP. It can be found at http://www.ubuntulinux.org. to install ltsp on ubuntu: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/LTSPQuickInstall
06:43	<rjune> Hrm.
06:44	I can see how somebody might think ltsp was slightly biased.
06:44	<vagrantc> rjune: you can teach ltspbot with: learn FOO as Blah Blah Blah
06:44	<Grejao> thanks for all :) after install and read the documentation and configure ltsp i return here. :P thanks,,,
06:44	<rjune> I'll refrain right now. I don't have anything useful to add
06:50	basanta has quit IRC
06:51	subir_ has quit IRC
06:51	steph_ has joined #ltsp
07:04	chup has joined #ltsp
07:04	chupa has quit IRC
07:05	cliebow has joined #ltsp
07:06	<Grejao> i want that my ltsp run with no dhcp server. I need that they run like windows 2003 TS. I install debian etch 4.0 RC0 .
07:07	<rjune> Do you have actual terminals now?
07:08	mhterres has joined #ltsp
07:08	<Grejao> rjune, yeap
07:09	<steph_> Can someone help with bridging on a virtualbox-ltsp / host-guest?
07:09	<Grejao> and i will migrate 32 positions from my call-center. migrate from w2k3 TS to linux with ltsp :)
07:10	jammcq has quit IRC
07:10	plamengr has joined #ltsp
07:11	Blinny has joined #ltsp
07:12	<cliebow> Grejao:if these are thin clients how will they get their filename so they know what kernel to download??otherwise it is not ltsp...
07:14	<Grejao> cliebow, sorry, i didn't unerstand
07:14	<cliebow> you are using thin clients?
07:14	K_O-Gnom has joined #ltsp
07:15	<Grejao> cliebow, yeap :D
07:16	<cliebow> where are they going to gewt their kernel? over the network?
07:16	/gewt/get
07:16	ogra_cmpcng has joined #ltsp
07:16	<Grejao> cliebow, hummm i think that ltsp run under rdp protocol
07:17	<cliebow> an ltsp client can use rdesktop for rdp protocol
07:17	<Grejao> what i need to do to connect my thinclients on ltsp?
07:17	<cliebow> but it has to boot first
07:17	averma has joined #ltsp
07:18	<cliebow> usually a thin client does an dhcp request which tels the client what kernel to dowload across the network vi tftp
07:18	<rjune> cliebow: he's using w2003ts
07:18	<gvy> ogra_cmpc, ! :)
07:19	<ogra_cmpcng> hey gvy
07:20	<cliebow> can anyone translate? if ($_=~/=/)
07:20	<Grejao> cliebow, but my network doesn`t have a dhcp, it i start it on my net, its probably that i have problems ,,
07:20	averma has left #ltsp
07:20	bobby_C has quit IRC
07:20	<cliebow> how are your machines on the network getting their addresses?
07:20	<Grejao> cliebow, static,,,
07:21	<gvy> cliebow, hm, like a test of a perl "current line"(?) variable to fit regex /=/
07:21	Grejao, then dhcp should be safe
07:21	<cliebow> ohh i see\
07:21	<Grejao> i'm new here ,,, and i'm making a project to enter a new dhcp server
07:21	<gvy> but of course it's a must to consult netadmin
07:22	<cliebow> gvy:this parses smb.conf..so it looks for lines with an = in them
07:22	<Grejao> ok ok
07:22	<gvy> Grejao, just in case, i've got a quick hack to convert arpwatch log (from router) with current dns data, if any, into configs for dhcpd and bind
07:23	here it is: http://fly.osdn.org.ua/~mike/works/misc/arp2dns+dhcp.rb
07:23	<Grejao> i have my own dns on internal network,,,
07:23	<gvy> written exactly when a static net (~200 PCs) was to be converted to dhcp
07:24	* cliebow cliebow hopes it is ok to look...
07:24	<gvy> cliebow, it's a ruby script... should be fairly similar to perl :)
07:24	* cliebow cliebow sees Mistik1 smiling..
07:24	<Grejao> my doubt is only with dhcp, its because if i start dhcp on this network i can have future problems,,, its because i will start my own dhcp server on the net in a few weeks
07:24	<gvy> (except probably iterators)
07:25	Grejao, you might want to merge ltsp and "the rest" of the need in dhcpd
07:25	<cliebow> yes
07:25	<gvy> are you defining the network addressing policy?
07:25	otavio has joined #ltsp
07:37	slidesinger has joined #ltsp
07:43	deavid has quit IRC
07:44	deavid has joined #ltsp
07:45	<Grejao> gvy, if i already have an dhcp at my network, how do i can configure it to boot my thinclients on ltsp?
07:46	<vagrantc> Grejao: set up your ltsp server with two network cards- one to access the rest of your network and the internet, the other for ltsp thin-clients
07:47	<gvy> Grejao, you might either put the needed pieces in there (if it's proper dhcpd) or try to configure it to "forward" requests with pcclient option (or the likes) to another dhcpd
07:47	two-nic setup is the easiest, yup
07:47	might be hardly possible with a few floors though
07:47	<vagrantc> depends on the physical layout, yes.
07:47	<gvy> Grejao, better consult the net admin first, you might have much less cases to look at
07:48	<vagrantc> but for testing purposes, it's probably harmless to set up a two-nic setup.
07:48	<Grejao> admin? i'm the admin :D
07:48	<cliebow> Grejao: would your thin clients be in a lab type setting..or spread all over the map?
07:50	chup has quit IRC
07:50	chup has joined #ltsp
07:51	ogra_cmpcng has quit IRC
07:52	primary has joined #ltsp
07:52	ogra_cmpcng has joined #ltsp
07:53	<primary> i am struggling to get our terminals to display at anything bigger then 800x600
07:53	ogra_cmpcng has quit IRC
07:53	ogra_cmpcng has joined #ltsp
07:54	<primary> using the amd thin clients
07:55	any tips
07:55	please?
07:55	<vagrantc> !help
07:55	<ltspbot> vagrantc: (help [<plugin>] [<command>]) -- This command gives a useful description of what <command> does. <plugin> is only necessary if the command is in more than one plugin.
07:55	<vagrantc> !questions
07:55	<ltspbot> vagrantc: Error: "questions" is not a valid command.
07:55	<vagrantc> !question
07:55	<ltspbot> vagrantc: "question" is is if you have a question about ltsp, please go ahead and ask it, and people will respond if they can. :)
07:56	<vagrantc> primary: well, start off with which linux distro and release ...
07:56	<Grejao> cliebow, yeap, i will make tests with my thinclients before :)
07:56	<vagrantc> ltspbot: forget question
07:56	<ltspbot> vagrantc: The operation succeeded.
07:56	<primary> edubuuntu 7.10
07:57	<vagrantc> ltspbot: learn question as if you have a question about ltsp, please go ahead and ask it, and people will respond if they can. please also mention the linux distro and release you're using. :)
07:57	<ltspbot> vagrantc: The operation succeeded.
08:01	TelnetManta has joined #ltsp
08:01	<primary> so no tips?
08:03	<cliebow> primary: seems like Gadi has been involved with thhis..He is not in yet
08:05	<gvy> primary, at least i remember that xorg-x11-drv-amd for geodes was broken in xorg-7.3 or the likes
08:05	you might want to google up pci id of vga chip
08:06	<vagrantc> primary: you might also try the #edubuntu channel
08:06	<primary> gvy: you right
08:07	i thought somebody found a work around yet
08:07	<gvy> primary, xorg-7.1 afair :(
08:07	<primary> tx dudes
08:08	<Grejao> gvy, cliebow whats the best solution for my situation... ltsp or freenx ?
08:08	<primary> another issue is sound via the browser, I get sounds from apps like mastermaths,etc
08:08	* gvy doesn't know
08:09	<primary> but not from browser - flash apps/youtube,etc
08:09	<gvy> er... aoss and alsa -> pulseaudio?
08:10	<ogra_cmpcng> you need libflashsupport ... look for the EdubuntuFAQ page on wiki.edubuntu.org
08:11	<cliebow> Grejao, freenx for 30 odd clients might tax a server..all that compressing and uncompressing..even when set to do minimal..
08:11	<ogra_cmpcng> amd is completely broken in xorg in gutsy ... not sure gadi has a backport for that yet, i know there is work going on
08:12	<cliebow> !o
08:12	<ltspbot> cliebow: Error: "o" is not a valid command.
08:12	<ogra_cmpcng> heh
08:12	<cliebow> should br
08:12	be
08:17	elisboa has quit IRC
08:17	elisboa has joined #ltsp
08:28	<Grejao> cliebow / gvy , can i install ltsp, configure, and put their dhcp server to make dhcp only for specifics mac address???
08:28	<mnemoc> sur
08:28	e
08:30	Gadi has joined #ltsp
08:34	chupa has joined #ltsp
08:34	<ogra_cmpc> Gadi, this user isnt regged ... i cant answer PM
08:34	<Gadi> ah
08:34	chup has quit IRC
08:34	<Gadi> well, no need to answer
08:34	:)
08:34	<ogra_cmpcng> but as you can see i'm back :)
08:34	<Gadi> just talking out loud :)
08:35	<ogra_cmpcng> i'll write a mail later today... way to busy atm
08:35	<Gadi> and, I am quite glad to see you
08:35	ditto
08:35	* Gadi crawls back into corner
08:35	<ogra_cmpcng> Gadi, do you by chance have anything primary could test on his geode gutsy install ?
08:36	psycodad_ has joined #ltsp
08:36	<ogra_cmpcng> this amd issue is so annoying ...
08:36	<Gadi> heh
08:36	yeah - its easy
08:36	Q-FUNK has a ppa
08:36	* Gadi looks it up
08:36	<ogra_cmpcng> oh, cool
08:36	primary, ^^^^
08:36	<primary> hi gadi
08:37	plamengr has quit IRC
08:37	<Gadi> morning
08:37	<primary> afternoon from SA
08:37	<Gadi> https://launchpad.net/~q-funk/+archive
08:38	add the deb line on that page to your: $chroot/etc/apt/sources.list
08:38	then: chroot $chroot apt-get update
08:38	chroot $chroot apt-get install xserver-xorg-video-amd xserver-xorg-core
08:39	<rjune_> !g
08:39	<ltspbot> rjune_: "g" is Gadi!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
08:39	<primary> i think I have this one - sorry you assisted some weeks ago I was "coolio" then
08:40	<ogra_cmpcng> and now its broken again ?
08:40	psycodad has quit IRC
08:40	<primary> the resolution on the clients only permits 600x800
08:40	<Gadi> primary: whats the client hardware again?
08:41	<primary> amd terminals www.inveneo.org
08:41	* ogra_cmpcng hopes thats 800x600, else you have to put the display on the side :)
08:41	<Pascal_1> hello, anybody would have a solution about ldm and pam ?
08:41	<primary> i think it is same as linutop
08:41	<Gadi> primary: try setting X_COLOR_DEPTH
08:41	<primary> ogra 800x600
08:42	<ogra_cmpcng> primary, i was joking :)
08:42	<Gadi> im not sure what version of the driver you have, primary
08:42	in fact, sudo $chroot dpkg -l xserver-xorg-video-amd
08:43	oh, wait!
08:43	praveer_cool has quit IRC
08:43	<Gadi> 800x600!
08:43	my guess is your hardware does not support DDC
08:43	<primary> hmmm
08:43	<Gadi> some of the amd thin clients floating out there have DDC disabled in the BIOS
08:44	you can check by logging into the thin client console
08:44	<ogra_cmpcng> or you have a to old monitor that doesnt return the info
08:44	<primary> i have a unit with xfce installed using laptop harddrive and that supports higher
08:44	<Gadi> and do: grep DDC /var/log/xorg.log
08:44	primary: try setting the resolution
08:44	X_MODE_0 = "1024x768"
08:45	dtrask has joined #ltsp
08:45	<primary> tells me no such file
08:45	<Gadi> hmm...
08:45	ls /var/log
08:46	maybe I have the name wrong
08:46	<Grejao> how many clients i can connect on ltsp at the same time?
08:46	<Gadi> :)
08:46	<ogra_cmpcng> /var/log/Xorg.0.log
08:46	<Gadi> ah
08:46	<ogra_cmpcng> /var/log/Xorg.6.log
08:47	<Pascal_1> the problem is that pam doesnt see ldm disconnection
08:47	<primary> confirms it is removed
08:47	(II) RADEON(0): I2C device "VGA_DDC:ddc2" registered at address 0xA0.
08:47	(II) RADEON(0): I2C device "VGA_DDC:ddc2" removed.
08:48	<Gadi> RADEON?
08:48	that sounds like the server
08:48	yours should say (II) AMD(0): ....
08:48	;)
08:48	<ogra_cmpcng> Grejao, that totally depends on the server and how powerful it is ... generally you can say you need 128M per running session on the server for a decent modern desktop (gnome/kde)
08:49	<Gadi> primary: you need to log into the client's console
08:49	<ogra_cmpcng> plus about 256M to operate the server itself
08:49	<Gadi> heh - those numbers keep creeping higher
08:49	;)
08:49	<ogra_cmpcng> not since i work on ltsp
08:49	128M is always been the number i told people
08:50	(since thats what highvoltage measured back in breezy)
08:50	<Gadi> http://wiki.ltsp.org/twiki/bin/view/Ltsp/ServerSizing
08:50	<ogra_cmpcng> thats 4,2 docs
08:51	* ogra_cmpcng asked plent of times that it would be changed over the years, but nnobody feels responsible and i lost my login
08:51	<ogra_cmpcng> *pleny
08:51	<Gadi> hehe
08:51	<ogra_cmpcng> the ubuntu wiki shows other numbers ... and the edubuntu handbook as well
08:51	* Gadi believes in overengineering anyway
08:52	<Gadi> hey, ogra: do you know a good generic way to change interface names in udev without MAC address?
08:52	* ogra_cmpcng pats the new cmpc keyboard ...
08:52	<Gadi> ie, all eth* should become lan*
08:52	<ogra_cmpcng> seems i type a lot better with it
08:53	<Gadi> or some such
08:53	or is this not possible
08:53	<ogra_cmpcng> its possible
08:53	but will break the world i guess
08:53	<Gadi> lol
08:53	<ogra_cmpcng> grep -R eth /etc/udev/*
08:54	<Gadi> yeah - gutsy uses this whole magic write_rules thing
08:54	I was gonna hack that up
08:54	<ogra_cmpcng> there should be something with persistent net rules in the name
08:54	<Gadi> yeah
08:54	<ogra_cmpcng> one is the generator
08:54	<vagrantc> Pascal_1: if anyone figures out anything regarding your ldm/pam issue, i'll update the bug report and notify you (the submitter)
08:54	<Gadi> it basically writes a rule for the MAC addy
08:54	ok
08:54	I will play with that
08:55	<ogra_cmpcng> Gadi, but i dont know if that will work as initramfs might handle it totally different and expect proper naming
08:55	<vagrantc> Pascal_1: http://bugs.debian.org/471793
08:55	<Pascal_1> vagrantc, what i wonder about this it's : am i alone to have this problem. maybe it's not a bug only a mistake from me
08:55	<Gadi> ogra_cmpcng: I think initramfs just pulls in the same rules
08:55	* ogra_cmpcng would still just use a nfs mounted /home :)
08:55	<ogra_cmpcng> Gadi, not sure, but you will see once you try :)
08:56	<Gadi> right
08:56	:)
08:56	<vagrantc> Pascal_1: i confirmed that it doesn't register pam logouts.
08:56	Pascal_1: that's why i asked you to file a bug.
08:56	<Pascal_1> ok
08:56	sorry to instist
08:56	insist
08:56	praveer_cool has joined #ltsp
08:58	<vagrantc> Pascal_1: it would have also been better if you had only included the parts of the logs from a successful ssh login and an ldm login (to demonstrate the lack of disconnect when using ldm)
08:58	<Pascal_1> that the log i add on the report bug
08:58	<vagrantc> Pascal_1: without commentary, the log is basically useless.
08:59	<Pascal_1> i put one with gdm one with ssh and one with ldm
08:59	can i modify the report ?
08:59	<ogra_cmpcng> you can add a new attachment
08:59	<vagrantc> Pascal_1: you can add more information.
08:59	<Gadi> Pascal_1: also, after the thin client user logs out, see if there are hanging user processes for that user
08:59	Pascal_1: that may be why it never registers a proper exit
08:59	* ogra_cmpcng guesses bonobo and dbus
09:00	<vagrantc> Pascal_1: oh, my mistake. now i understand what you did.
09:00	<Pascal_1> Gadi, i do only open/close session then no more process
09:00	<vagrantc> Pascal_1: would be good to get auth.log from an ssh session, too.
09:00	<Pascal_1> vagrantc, may be my paste is not very clear
09:00	<Gadi> Pascal_1: are you sure? you checked: ps -ef\|grep <user>
09:00	<Pascal_1> vagrantc, there is from ssh also ;-)
09:00	gadi yes
09:00	<vagrantc> Pascal_1: oh, you did. my mistake again :)
09:00	<Gadi> ah, ok
09:00	<Pascal_1> vagrantc, sure my paste is not really clear
09:01	Gadi, i made a new try
09:01	<vagrantc> Gadi: i confirmed that ldm doesn't trigger pam's logout hooks the same way a regular ssh session does.
09:01	<Gadi> Pascal_1: a quick fix would be to write a little cron job to check for mounted homedirs of users not logged in and unmount them
09:02	<Pascal_1> that i plan to do for the moment
09:03	<ogra_cmpcng> we need post session rc.d scripts
09:03	primary has left #ltsp
09:04	<Pascal_1> then vagrantc for the bug report do you think there is enough informations (i make a try to see process)
09:08	<vagrantc> Pascal_1: yeah.
09:08	ogra_cmpcng: we have them
09:08	ogra_cmpcng: just no scripts
09:08	<ogra_cmpcng> right
09:09	ltspfsmounter clanup should become one :_
09:09	:)
09:09	<vagrantc> might drop the "kill $PPID" thing tacked on part.
09:09	<Pascal_1> oups there is a process still alive after session closed
09:09	plegrand 2832 1 0 15:05 ? 00:00:00 /usr/lib/libgconf2-4/gconfd-2 6
09:11	* Gadi wonders what happens if Pascal_1 adds a ";pkill -9 gconfd" to his python ldm script before the ";kill $PPID"
09:11	<Pascal_1> it's not python
09:11	<Gadi> Pascal_1: I thought you used the python one
09:11	you upgraded?
09:12	<ogra_cmpcng> and it would likely be gconfd-2 :)
09:12	<Gadi> you on gutsy now?
09:12	(pkill would catch it :P )
09:12	<Pascal_1> no
09:12	i'm alway on debian etch but my new install is from backports
09:12	<Gadi> ah, ok
09:12	<ogra_cmpcng> oh, right, pkill does pattern matching
09:12	<Gadi> do you have a: /opt/ltsp/i386/usr/share/ldm/rc.d dir?
09:13	<Pascal_1> yes
09:13	<Gadi> try adding a file in there named: K01killprocs
09:13	and inside, put:
09:14	ssh -X -S $LDM_SOCKET $LDM_SERVER pkill -9 gconfd
09:14	<ogra_cmpcng> that wont help on logouts ... /home will stay mounted until next login at least
09:14	<Pascal_1> about permission on this file ?
09:14	<Gadi> we wont know till we try
09:14	:)
09:15	Pascal_1: the file is sourced
09:15	<ogra_cmpcng> and if you have bad luck it kills the gconfd that was just started by your session manager
09:15	<Gadi> I believe
09:15	ogra_cmpc: the file starts with K
09:15	<ogra_cmpcng> depends how fast it races :)
09:15	<Gadi> should happen on exit
09:15	<ogra_cmpcng> i dont think we regard that yet
09:15	vagrantc, do we ?
09:15	<Pascal_1> Gadi, what you mean by is sourced ?
09:16	<ogra_cmpcng> Pascal_1, doesnt need to be executable
09:16	<Gadi> ie, it is not executed, but sourced
09:16	<Pascal_1> ok
09:17	i made a try
09:17	gconfd is killed but no more log in auth.log
09:17	* vagrantc is a bit distracted
09:17	<Pascal_1> ;-)
09:18	i dont speak very well english but i think i understand a little, even for joke
09:18	<Gadi> Pascal_1: check the mount, tho
09:18	* ogra_cmpcng plays with cheese and the webcam in the new cmpc generation
09:18	<Gadi> is it still mounted?
09:18	<Pascal_1> no more
09:18	<Gadi> so, it worked?
09:19	<Pascal_1> no
09:19	only the process is killed
09:19	gconfd
09:20	<Gadi> well, try changing that file to:
09:20	<Pascal_1> Gadi, i dont use for the moment pam-mount but another module based pam "pam-script" then i have the result of the disconnection quickly
09:21	<Gadi> actually, hmm...
09:21	steph_ has left #ltsp
09:21	<Gadi> try changing the pkill -9 gconfd to: pkill -9 sshd
09:22	or, maybe we need to be gentler
09:22	pkill -HUP sshd
09:22	<ogra_cmpcng> thats pretty mean
09:22	<Gadi> something to trigger a pam logout
09:22	gonzaloaf has quit IRC
09:24	gonzaloaf has joined #ltsp
09:24	<Pascal_1> it doesnt works , i try -HUP ?
09:24	chup has joined #ltsp
09:25	<Pascal_1> the screen freeze when i close the session now
09:25	chupa has quit IRC
09:28	<Gadi> screen freezes with -HUP?
09:28	or with -9?
09:28	<Pascal_1> all icons disapear ther is only the background logo
09:28	-9 sshd -HUP sshd
09:28	<dtrask> ogra_cmpcng: Is the new machine more powerful?
09:28	<Gadi> in both cases?
09:29	<Pascal_1> yes
09:29	<Gadi> ah, ok - bad idea then :)
09:29	<ogra_cmpcng> dtrask, no idea how it will get to the shops, the one i have here is ... but thats a early pre version with 30G HDD and 512M ram
09:30	vagrantc has quit IRC
09:30	<ogra_cmpcng> i doubt the sold devcies (end of teh year) will have a HDD or 512M
09:30	<Gadi> Pascal_1: did the smbmount unmount, tho?
09:30	even if it froze the thin client?
09:30	<warren> Q-FUNK, you around?
09:30	<dtrask> ogra_cmpcng: COOL. Mine with the new image (hardy) freezes quite a bit when launching some programs. I haven't delved to deeply, but I have to do a hard reset when it does this
09:31	<ogra_cmpcng> dtrask, and the 9" screen does just look odd ... since they didnt change the max resolution it just looks big and not as crisp as the 7"
09:31	<Pascal_1> Gadi, i dont use for the moment smbmount and the rest i use only pam-script but the action that i want to do with pam-script is not executed when i disconnect and there is no log in auth.log. the same as pam-mount
09:31	<dtrask> ogra_cmpcng: I have Konversation installed and that's one of the programs....sometimes it works fine...other times it freezes the machine very hard
09:31	<ogra_cmpcng> dtrask, which image is that ? until recently the image had /tmp mounted into ram which breaks a lot of stuff
09:32	<dtrask> ogra_cmpcng: ??? wonder why they would do that?
09:32	<ogra_cmpcng> dtrask, check if /tmp is in a tmpfs ... if so, remove the line from fstab and reboot
09:32	<dtrask> ogra_cmpcng: I downloaded and installed a week ago when you sent me the link
09:32	will do...thx
09:32	<ogra_cmpcng> that might still have the bug
09:32	<Pascal_1> Gadi, for the moment the result is the same
09:33	<ogra_cmpcng> its inherited from the livecd build script which needs /tmp in ram
09:33	<dtrask> ogra_cmpcng: has there been a new image in the past few days?
09:33	<Pascal_1> everything works fine but not on close session with ldm
09:34	<ogra_cmpcng> dtrask, i try to build one every two days at least
09:34	* ogra_cmpcng needs to try a reinstall ...
09:34	* ogra_cmpcng changes machines
09:34	ogra_cmpcng has quit IRC
09:34	<dtrask> ogra_cmpcng: I see the one from yesterday....will reimage tonight
09:35	ogra_cmpc: I see the one from yesterday....will reimage tonight
09:35	<ogra_cmpc> wait until todays is up
09:35	<dtrask> ogra_cmpc: the imaging process is slick....what I mean by that is that the end user(s) will find it easy to do...I'm impressed
09:35	<ogra_cmpc> i'm currently working on it
09:35	<dtrask> OK
09:36	ogra_cmpc: I'll keep an eye out for it
09:36	<ogra_cmpc> i was thinking about making it even easier with a little gui, but that would mean users need ubuntu installed to dump the image to USB
09:36	<dtrask> ogra_cmpc: thanks for the heads up
09:36	<ogra_cmpc> thanks for the feedback :)
09:37	<dtrask> ogra_cmpc: np....I learned a lot....like the fact that the battery is a bitch to get out....I had one freeze to the point where nothing else would work....had to remove the battery....ain't an easy task ;-)
09:38	<ogra_cmpc> yeah
09:38	you will love the removable battery of the next gen :)
09:40	<warren> what device are you talking about?
09:40	psycodad has joined #ltsp
09:40	<ogra_cmpc> classmate second generation
09:42	steph_ has joined #ltsp
09:44	tux_440volt has quit IRC
09:48	FLOLO has joined #ltsp
09:50	FLOLO has left #ltsp
09:51	mccann has joined #ltsp
09:52	psycodad_ has quit IRC
09:54	mccann has joined #ltsp
09:54	psycodad_ has joined #ltsp
09:55	psycodad has quit IRC
09:56	<dtrask> warren: it's the classmate PC from Intel....Intel's supposed challenger to the OLPC
09:56	<warren> not difficult to challenge OLPC...
09:56	* warren really likes the Asus eeepc
09:56	<ogra_cmpc> no challenger
09:56	<jcastro> I am eyeballing a Eee as well
09:57	* dtrask wants an eeePC, but needs to decide between a Nokia N810 (I already have an N800) or the eeePC
09:57	<ogra_cmpc> jcastro, i'll bring the lcassmate-ng to prague ...
09:57	<jcastro> ok
09:57	<ogra_cmpc> the one i have here is far beyond the current eeePC
09:57	<jcastro> I didn't know they were making a new classmate
09:57	<ogra_cmpc> (30Gig HDD etc)
09:57	elisboa has quit IRC
09:57	<stgraber> dtrask: takes a eeePC :) N810 isn't that much better than N800 from what I've read
09:58	<dtrask> ogra_cmpc: it's an actual hard drive? Not flash?
09:58	<stgraber> dtrask: except if you absolutely need the GPS
09:58	<ogra_cmpc> well, not yet ... what i have is a dev model ...
09:58	dtrask, this one, yes, but i dont think you will be able to buy them like that
09:59	i'm totally no friend of the 9" display ...
09:59	the 7" looks much smarter and crisper
09:59	<dtrask> stgraber: I'm getting that from a lot of folks...and my n800 works just fine....I'm hearing many folks are pissed about the microSD card and the newer small usb jack as opposed to the standard SD and usb port on the n800
09:59	<jcastro> dtrask: my problem with the n8xx is the price
10:00	it's just too expensive
10:00	<ogra_cmpc> how much is it ?
10:00	<jcastro> it's the same price as a Eee!
10:00	<ogra_cmpc> a classmate is supposed to be around $220
10:00	<dtrask> although in the one I have I cannot understand why such a small screen and close to 2-3 inches of unused bezel space
10:00	my n800 was $365 us
10:00	when new
10:00	they've dropped considerably
10:00	the n810 is about the same now
10:01	<stgraber> 600 CHF = 382€ = 589$ here :)
10:01	so really really expensive
10:01	<dtrask> stgraber: yes, but aren't all Europeans independently wealthy? ;-)
10:02	* ogra_cmpc wonders when we will start to use $ as common currency to compare prices ... its way to unstable ... time for switching everyone to euros :)
10:02	<dtrask> I need to play with an eeePC....jorge...I think the guys from Resara will be bringing a bunch of them to FOSSED this summer
10:02	<ogra_cmpc> s/start/stop/
10:03	<cyberorg> hi ogra_cmpc good to see you back :)
10:03	<ogra_cmpc> hey cyberorg
10:04	<jcastro> dtrask: my friend's wife got one, they're pretty slick.
10:04	* dtrask has to admit that from a portability standpoint and the ability to work online, the n800 has save his ass a few times
10:04	* ogra_cmpc ponders that one as next lappie http://www.notebook-paradies.com/oxid.php/sid/5edaa3940591eddf3d83ee1265734734/cl/details/cnid/34d47e3d0619f1822.57725514/anid/34d47e3d1da300ea6.34265928/<b>NEXOC-Osiris-S621---Tablet<_b>/
10:04	<laga> ogra_cmpc: a tablet pc?
10:05	<ogra_cmpc> well, a subnotebook with tablet screen
10:05	jammcq has joined #ltsp
10:05	<ogra_cmpc> i doubt i'll use the tablet part of it ever
10:05	<jammcq> g'morning kidz
10:05	ogra_cmpc: ?
10:05	<laga> ogra_cmpc: yeah.. it's not well supported in linux
10:05	<stgraber> dtrask: I bought a Palm T\|X for that, wifi/bluetooth/irda and sdcard reader + standard mini-jack plug :)
10:05	<gvy> g'm jammcq
10:05	<ogra_cmpc> but we will likely support tablets in ubuntu so having one where i can test it makes sense
10:05	hey jammcq
10:05	<stgraber> dtrask: I can even boot Linux on it (just lacking wireless support though ...)
10:05	<jammcq> hey gvy
10:05	<gvy> 17 o'clock in the morning here
10:05	<laga> ogra_cmpc: then make your employer pay for it ;)
10:05	ogra_cmpc: i've seen thinkpad tablets for less than 1000€
10:05	<ogra_cmpc> laga, thats what i currently try ;)
10:06	<jammcq> ogra_cmpc: nice to see you. I've got a question for you. I'll be showing off the latest in LTSP-5 when I go to brazil on Apr 15th. will there be another beta release before then?
10:06	<ogra_cmpc> there wont me more betas
10:06	<jammcq> RC ?
10:06	<dtrask> I gotta' tell you guys...I'm absolutely in love with my System76 Darter....best laptop I've ever owned....and I've owned many.
10:06	<stgraber> jammcq: rc will be on the 17th
10:06	<jammcq> hmm
10:07	might be early enough. My talk prolly will be on the 19th
10:07	<dtrask> stgraber: That would be a showstopper for me ;-)
10:07	<ogra_cmpc> jammcq, RCF is due for the 17th
10:07	*RC
10:07	<jammcq> release candidate?
10:07	vagrantc has joined #ltsp
10:08	<ogra_cmpc> jammcq, but if you need stable dailies i can try my best to get you one
10:08	<dtrask> ogra_cmpc: what's the release date?
10:08	<ogra_cmpc> yup, release candidate
10:08	https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HardyReleaseSchedule
10:08	24th
10:08	<jammcq> i'm not too worried about stable. I'm gonna show hardy, fedora, debian and opensuse
10:08	* dtrask waits anxiously on edge of set
10:08	<jammcq> (i hope)
10:08	<ogra_cmpc> jammcq, you know you need the alternate CD right ?
10:08	<stgraber> dtrask: I'm using it on PalmOS Garnet (kind of Linux based) and have Linux as dual-boot. Just waiting for some guys to release the kernel driver, it's similar to the one that will be in the OpenMoko so it should be done soon :)
10:08	<dtrask> seat
10:08	<jammcq> yeah
10:08	<vagrantc> jammcq: showing ?
10:09	<ogra_cmpc> and it has ltsp in the modes menu (f4)
10:09	<jammcq> when I go to brazil in april
10:09	chup has quit IRC
10:09	<vagrantc> jammcq: please use sid or at least a backport for debian :)
10:09	chupa has joined #ltsp
10:09	<dtrask> stgraber: cool....there is a garnet emu for n8xx now too...folks can run all their Palm apps
10:09	<jammcq> vagrantc: I'll definately talk with you before I load it up
10:09	<ogra_cmpc> yeah, dont present etch with etch packages
10:09	<jammcq> wanna get the best that debian has to offer
10:10	<ogra_cmpc> lenny or sid ...
10:10	<vagrantc> although sid's unfortunately a little borked right now due to breakages in initramfs-tools/busybox
10:10	<ogra_cmpc> depending what vagrantc breaks :)
10:10	<vagrantc> more on what other people break
10:10	<stgraber> jammcq: alternate daily builds are usually stable, so if we haven't released the RC you can still download the latest daily
10:10	<vagrantc> jammcq: so, by show ... what do you mean ... a talk? a workshop?
10:10	<jammcq> stgraber: I'll be doing this under vmware, so I can snapshot something that works, and then try updating to the latest build. if it breaks, I have a good fallback
10:11	a talk
10:11	nothing terribly in depth
10:11	<ogra_cmpc> jammcq, if you want a daily tested, just ping me a day before ... i have the setup here anyway to do that quickly
10:11	<vagrantc> ltsp doesn't look so different from a typical desktop, no?
10:11	<jammcq> I get an hour, but it'll be translated from english to Portguese and spanish, so I'll have to talk about 1/2 speed
10:11	<vagrantc> those translators are so amazing.
10:12	<ogra_cmpc> vagrantc, its the sideshow, not the main act that counts ... jim dancing and the like
10:12	* dtrask hope jammcq can avoid a "Bill Gates" moment aka BSOD in front of thousands of people ;-)
10:12	bobby_C has joined #ltsp
10:12	<jammcq> the translators that i've worked with in previous visits have been incredible and i'm looking forward to it again
10:12	<vagrantc> ogra_cmpc: ah, true enough.
10:12	"and as you can see, it's always improving ... with your help!"
10:13	<dtrask> jammcq: eat a lot of meat for us will ya?
10:13	<jammcq> heh, like there was any doubt
10:13	<warren> so I hear no objections to the two proposals
10:13	* dtrask thanks to jammcq broadening his horizons, dtrask loves brazilian restaurants
10:13	<ogra_cmpc> warren, proposals ?
10:13	<dtrask> proposals?
10:14	<warren> ogra_cmpc, see the list, pretty important
10:14	<ogra_cmpc> bzr 1.0 ?
10:14	<warren> ogra_cmpc, 1) convert all repos to pack-0.92
10:14	ogra_cmpc, 2) begin tagging versions using the described methodology
10:14	spectra has joined #ltsp
10:15	<ogra_cmpc> warren, well, we should still branch off for stable releases to have a code snapshot to apply patches to
10:15	<warren> ogra_cmpc, technically you can branch it from anywhere at anytime
10:15	<ogra_cmpc> i dont mind either but still want to have a snapshot branch
10:15	sure
10:15	<warren> so sure
10:16	Note, I don't consider anything that shipped previously to be stable
10:16	seriously, X -ac?
10:16	<ogra_cmpc> but if someone wants to write a patch for a released version are you the one to explain him/her the guts of bzr instead of just saying bzr branch http://stable.release/blah ?
10:16	<warren> is Ubuntu still using X -ac?
10:16	you should really fix that
10:16	<ogra_cmpc> i will
10:16	i'm lacking time for ltsp atm
10:17	but its on my list to be fixefd before release
10:17	<warren> that is a huge freaking security hole
10:17	<ogra_cmpc> right
10:17	<warren> ogra_cmpc, what is a stable version?
10:17	<ogra_cmpc> and thus can still go in late ... its a security fix :)
10:17	warren, one that we tag with a version ?
10:17	<warren> ogra_cmpc, until somebody picks a version to branch from, there is no stable branch
10:17	<vagrantc> warren: while you may diss the quality of the software, it is important not to dismiss the fact that other distros have an existing user base and the software has proven stable, despite the one glaring security hole we've seen in 2 years.
10:17	<warren> ogra_cmpc, no, read the proposal
10:18	ogra_cmpc, versions are not stable or chosen for any particular purpose
10:18	<vagrantc> so changing behavior on the basis that it's unstable is not really appropriate.
10:18	<warren> vagrantc, I'm just pointing out that "stable" is relative. What you consider stable remains unusable for Fedora. I still need to reimplement missing pieces.
10:19	<ogra_cmpc> warren, still, think of people that only know cvs or svn ...
10:19	we need to offer them something easy else we'll lose manpower
10:19	<warren> as if we had much manpower to begin with today?
10:20	ogra_cmpc, have you considered the possibility that the pass methodology of only snapshots has scared away potential developers in the past because this is a totally alien way of doing things?
10:20	<ogra_cmpc> HUH ?
10:20	oops
10:21	thats wasnt supposed to be capitaizes
10:21	capitalized
10:21	<warren> vagrantc, I think you misunderstand... I'm just pointing out that there is no obvious upstream stable point
10:21	<cyberorg> i feel we should be doing release early/often, mark it unstable or development release if required
10:21	<vagrantc> warren: i've been pointing that out since before i knew you existed :P
10:21	<ogra_cmpc> warren, whats the prob here to just dump off a separate snapshot branch the moment we tag
10:21	<warren> ogra_cmpc, did you READ the proposal?
10:22	<ogra_cmpc> yes
10:22	<warren> ogra_cmpc, there will likely be hundreds of tags in the next year
10:22	<vagrantc> ogra_cmpc: this doesn't prevent from branching
10:22	<ogra_cmpc> "The newer repository formats support tagging which allows us to
10:22	to use version numbers instead of only snapshots."
10:22	<warren> ogra_cmpc, it makes a lot more sense to create a branch only if somebody is actually USING that branch
10:22	steph_ has quit IRC
10:23	<warren> ogra_cmpc, but given how things work for other distros, a branch is likely to be distro-specific
10:23	<vagrantc> ogra_cmpc: i think the key word there is "only"
10:23	<ogra_cmpc> warren, so what do you do after fc released ? upload weekly new packages to your stable distro ?
10:23	<warren> ogra_cmpc, well, we try to stabilize it before the release.
10:23	* ogra_cmpc uses to keep a code branch from the release day
10:24	<ogra_cmpc> so if people want to make patches they can use that branch
10:24	<vagrantc> ogra_cmpc: i don't see how the proposal interferes with that mode of operation, only makes it easier to decide where to branch from.
10:24	<ogra_cmpc> i just say that we shouldnt drop snapshotting
10:24	<warren> this isn't dropping snapshotting
10:24	<ogra_cmpc> i dont object any of the points in the proposal
10:24	<vagrantc> yay!
10:24	<warren> you need not change how you operate at all
10:25	you can completely ignore the tags if you want
10:25	<ogra_cmpc> what i would like us to do is to find a day where we all conside the code stable enough to branch of an upstream snapshot
10:25	simply because people demand it
10:25	<vagrantc> i think tagging will make that process easier ...
10:25	<ogra_cmpc> but thats a matter of us all agreeing that we think its stable for us
10:26	<warren> That isn't going to happen anytime soon
10:26	meanwhile we all just want to get work done
10:26	<ogra_cmpc> i dont want to force peopkle to have to read books about bzr just to help out
10:26	<warren> this process allows autonomy while transitions us to a real release later
10:26	<ogra_cmpc> right
10:26	<warren> ogra_cmpc, too late, it is already that confusing.
10:26	Pascal_1 has quit IRC
10:26	<ogra_cmpc> i didnt say we need to snapshot this week :)
10:26	... next probably :P
10:27	<vagrantc> april ... 25th?
10:27	* vagrantc grins
10:27	<ogra_cmpc> heh
10:27	<warren> didn't Ubuntu branch from upstream a while ago?
10:27	<ogra_cmpc> no, that day i'll sleep 18h or more
10:27	<warren> for some freeze
10:27	<ogra_cmpc> right, my orig.tar.gz contains a snapshot ... and the package has patches added
10:29	(orig.tar.gz is the upstream source in a debian package)
10:29	psycodad_ has quit IRC
10:29	<vagrantc> hrm.
10:29	mikkel has quit IRC
10:29	staffencasa has joined #ltsp
10:29	<vagrantc> i was just about to release ldm 0.1~bzr20080326 ... and i just realized i'm missing 1 patch from warren.
10:30	<warren> vagrantc, the one that supports 1000 languages?
10:30	<vagrantc> warren: yes.
10:30	<warren> vagrantc, you don't need it
10:30	<ogra_cmpc> 1000 languages ?
10:30	<vagrantc> warren: but now my "version" convention is all borked.
10:30	<warren> anyone mind if I begin converting the repos now?
10:30	<vagrantc> warren: i.e. it doesn't actually contain all the patches from 2008-03-26 ...
10:31	<warren> i'll start with mkdst, then ltspfs, then ldm
10:31	<ogra_cmpc> warren, does that need to happen before we two release ?
10:31	<vagrantc> ah, hell. i'll just deal with that.
10:31	<warren> vagrantc, date-based conventions are broken due to timezone too
10:31	<vagrantc> warren: i always use utc
10:31	<warren> ogra_cmpc, does it really matter?
10:31	<vagrantc> warren: internally consistant, typically. but today, fuck it.
10:31	:)
10:32	<ogra_cmpc> warren, if i discover something last minute i need to pull it can become quite painful if bzr needs extra handholding
10:32	<warren> ogra_cmpc, dude, you can branch at any past point
10:32	<ogra_cmpc> i would see the same for you though ...
10:33	<warren> ogra_cmpc, ltsp-trunk is already diverged from what you have in ubuntu anyway
10:33	<vagrantc> ogra_cmpc: i'd wait to make the tag until you actually make a release. just be absolutely sure you know what revision it is.
10:33	<warren> so how is this really an issue
10:33	* ogra_cmpc wouldnt do management changes that short before release ... even though it might be moot since i'll use patches anyway in ubuntu for now
10:33	<warren> this change doesn't change what you are doing at all
10:33	meanwhile it REALLY helps upstream become a real upstream
10:33	your schedule can't hold back everyone else
10:34	<ogra_cmpc> just do it then
10:34	:P
10:34	<warren> ok, thank you
10:34	<vagrantc> only feedback i haven't heard from is cyberorg ...
10:35	i think we've got representation from debian, fedora, gentoo and ubuntu ...
10:35	psycodad has joined #ltsp
10:35	<vagrantc> any other distros to speak up on the proposal?
10:35	<cyberorg> vagrantc, i just said, i am fine with whatever, but we need stable/unstable/development releases often
10:35	<vagrantc> or upstream?
10:36	cyberorg: i think this doesn't fix that, but i think it moves in the right direction ... or makes it easier for that to happen.
10:38	<cyberorg> vagrantc, cool, good for the project
10:38	<warren> hmm, how do you push when no changes were made?
10:38	[warren@newcaprica mkdst]$ bzr push
10:38	Using saved location: bzr+ssh://wtogami@bazaar.launchpad.net/~ltsp-upstream/mkdst/mkdst-trunk/
10:38	No new revisions to push.
10:38	only converted the format...
10:38	* dtrask is away: Lunch time...leave a msg
10:38	<vagrantc> warren: i think you have to upgrade the remote repository
10:38	dtrask is now known as dtrask-away
10:39	<ogra_cmpc> argh
10:39	<vagrantc> warren: but i honestly don't understand this aspect of bzr very well.
10:39	* ogra_cmpc watches his imagebuilder implode
10:40	<vagrantc> maybe someone should fork bzr and commit to not updating the repository formats all the freaking time.
10:40	<ogra_cmpc> you dont need to :)
10:40	<warren> I'll call it bzr-ng
10:40	<vagrantc> ok, i'm done ranting
10:40	warren: not to be confused with bazaar-ng (bzr)
10:40	<ogra_cmpc> warren, bzr is actually been bzr-ng for two years
10:41	<warren> bzr-ng-ng
10:41	try pronouncing that
10:41	<vagrantc> well, bazaar was called baz, bazaar-ng was called bzr. let's get this straight.
10:41	<warren> cathedral?
10:41	<vagrantc> when adding a fork, we need to maximize confusion.
10:42	<ogra_cmpc> vagrantc, there was a bzr-ng ofr a while
10:42	*for
10:42	<vagrantc> ogra_cmpc: oh, good. that helps us with the confusion bit.
10:42	<ogra_cmpc> not sure that was an internal workname the guys used though
10:42	<gvy> ogra_cmpc, re bzr books -- a tiny "everyday bzr with ltsp" with specific urls might really help
10:42	<warren> bzr-ng-ng will be completely incompatible with bzr
10:43	<gvy> a sort of annotated ~/.*sh_history \| grep bzr
10:43	<vagrantc> warren: i think it should be fully compatible with a single format.
10:43	<warren> vagrantc, I'm not working on this!
10:43	=)
10:43	<ogra_cmpc> gvy, well, basically you ponly need pull, push and commit ... and a webserver with ssh access to publish it
10:43	<vagrantc> heh
10:44	well, you also need to understand merge and the dangers of using push improperly.
10:44	<gvy> vagrantc, 0.1~bzr20080326.1? :)
10:44	<ogra_cmpc> what warren and vagrantc want are the super esoteric bits of bzr :)
10:45	<warren> Not my problem that Ubuntu is incapable of understanding versions
10:45	=)
10:45	<vagrantc> ogra_cmpc: there is one thing i want from bzr... a stable format.
10:45	<ogra_cmpc> go to #bzr and complain there :)
10:45	<vagrantc> ogra_cmpc: ok, two things. i want revision history from my version control system to not be trivial to change.
10:45	ogra_cmpc: i've already filed bugs.
10:45	<ogra_cmpc> lifeless usually has an open ear for suggestions :)
10:46	<vagrantc> well, bug.
10:46	<warren> I wonder how git managed to avoid these problems?
10:46	<gvy> warren, ogra_cmpc, and re "REAL upstream" -- i'd probably +1 doing that AFTER both of you are done with releases
10:46	abadger1999 has quit IRC
10:47	<vagrantc> gvy: since ldm was looking good and fixed a security bug, i didn't want to wait for the new version conventions to upload today :)
10:47	<gvy> ogra_cmpc, basically i understand (and we've already published http://ftp.linux.kiev.ua/pub/Linux/ALT/people/led/bzr/ltsp/) but look at http://www.kernel.org/pub/software/scm/git/docs/everyday.html for nice example :)
10:47	vagrantc, :)
10:47	<vagrantc> gvy: everyday git sent me screaming.
10:48	gvy: admittedly, it's been a year ... but gah.
10:48	* ogra_cmpc hugs bzr seeing that page
10:49	<warren> git isn't that bad
10:49	<gvy> vagrantc, re "not updating the repository formats" -- well git doesn't. :)
10:49	<vagrantc> http://doc.bazaar-vcs.org/latest/en/mini-tutorial/index.html
10:49	<warren> although sometimes I don't git it.
10:49	<gvy> well, i'd probably stop with that for now, no real sense :)
10:49	warren, :)))))
10:50	vagrantc, read that already; maybe a link on ltsp.org developers corner?
10:50	<vagrantc> gvy: yes. i have been tempted by git for that reason alone.
10:50	gvy: yeah, probably.
10:50	<ogra_cmpc> btw, do we want to start using LP for general upstream bugs ? we have all the stuff there its just one switch to flip .... not sure it makes sense though
10:50	<vagrantc> jammcq: can we move wiki.ltsp.org to old.wiki.ltsp.org and start over ? :)
10:50	<jammcq> umm
10:51	<ogra_cmpc> (the majority of my bugs is usually ubuntu specific)
10:51	<Gadi> whats a quick way to allow ltsp-build-client to use unauthenticated packages?
10:51	<ogra_cmpc> vagrantc, oh, you have content to replace the wiki already ? :P
10:51	<vagrantc> Gadi: --accept-unsigned-packages, i think
10:51	<Gadi> passed where?
10:51	to l-b-c?
10:52	<vagrantc> ogra_cmpc: no, but moving it aside makes it relatively easy to migrate the content we actually want, while leaving the old one in place in a way so it's still accessible.
10:52	<warren> Does Debian or Ubuntu sign packages or only the metdata?
10:52	metadata
10:52	<vagrantc> warren: typically signed hashes of the packages
10:53	warren: i think sha*sum and m5sums
10:53	warren: and then signed hashes of the package lists (i.e. the lists of packages and their dependency information) on the mirrors
10:53	* gvy finished reading scrollback
10:54	<ogra_cmpc> in ubuntu you also need a valid gpg sign on the changes file, else you cant upload ... not sure debian handles that the same way as we use a different build system and policies
10:54	<vagrantc> but no signatures within the packages themselves ... there was a project to try and do that ... debsums, i think, but it didn't recieve wide adoption.
10:54	<gvy> vagrantc, btw breaking google links on ltsp.org is quite bad actually
10:54	<ogra_cmpc> (and ubuntu doesnt allow binary uploads)
10:54	* warren finds binary uploads to be really strange
10:54	<ogra_cmpc> yeah
10:54	but debian has them
10:54	<vagrantc> gvy: it's possible to inform google about the new location, by leaving a re-direct up for some time.
10:54	<gvy> i don't have decent proposal but either ltsp.org/something or something.ltsp.org, or redirecting 404s to oldsomething.ltsp.org...
10:55	<ogra_cmpc> warren, from a business POV i can understand them though
10:55	<gvy> vagrantc, yeah, i've just recently searched for something and got a few caches hit
10:55	<ogra_cmpc> if you have a repo for business partners with proprietary stuff etc
10:55	<warren> ogra_cmpc, unwillingness to force developers to learn new skills?
10:55	<ogra_cmpc> warren, unwillingness to release closed source code :)
10:55	* vagrantc doesn't like binary-only uploads
10:56	<vagrantc> there's no consensus on binary-only uploads in debian, so we're stuck with the status quo for the moment.
10:56	<warren> binary-only uploads only makes it more likely that a binary wont be reproducible
10:56	* vagrantc agrees.
10:56	<gvy> +1
10:56	<warren> I'm converting ltspfs-trunk
10:57	<ogra_cmpc> warren, you cant avoid it in business ... you can in OSS though
10:57	<vagrantc> warren: the only argument i've heard is that developers would then just trust that the buildd's will catch mistakes that they make in packaging and waste a lot of buildd time.
10:57	warren: but i don't think that's worth it. i think binary-only uploads are stupid.
10:58	<warren> ltspfs-trunk is a small one so should be quick
10:58	ldm and ltsp are huge and I'm using my home bandwidth
10:58	DO NOT TOUCH THEM
10:58	#bzr said to convert the repo on the launchpad server directly
10:58	this is the only way to make it so existing people don't need to pull from scratch
10:58	<ogra_cmpc> vagrantc, you dont have a realplayer package in debian :) ...
10:59	<vagrantc> ogra_cmpc: well, i think proprietary software is stupid too.
10:59	<ogra_cmpc> right
10:59	<vagrantc> not saying there aren't (somewhat) valid reasons for it, but overall, i think it's stupid.
11:00	<ogra_cmpc> but parts of it pay my loan :) so i wont complain to loud
11:01	chupa has quit IRC
11:01	<warren> "Evil pays my loan, so I wont complain...."
11:01	=)
11:01	chupa has joined #ltsp
11:02	<ogra_cmpc> warren, well, even though i wouldnt recommend evil to anyone or use it myself, i'm happy that there are people stupid enough to keep their things proprietary enough to have to pay someone to make it work in the free world :)
11:04	so why should i complain here :)
11:04	<warren> ogra_cmpc, btw, does Shuttleworth give Canonical employees any stock or stock options?
11:04	<jammcq> ogra_cmpc: so how do you resolve the fact that they're proprietary software in pretty much every electronic device you own, and in your car ?
11:04	<ogra_cmpc> we're no stock compant
11:05	company
11:05	jammcq, i dont think about it :)
11:05	<jammcq> ah, me neither :)
11:05	just checking
11:05	<ogra_cmpc> i do if i know there is a free alternative ...
11:05	<warren> ogra_cmpc, even private companies can have stock
11:05	<ogra_cmpc> since i would feel bad to not at least have taken a look
11:06	warren, no stock ... dictatorship :)
11:06	<warren> ogra_cmpc, China has both
11:06	<ogra_cmpc> you can buy stocks of china ?
11:06	* ogra_cmpc wonders if there would be any revenue ever
11:08	<warren> Hmm, if governments could be purchased in stock
11:08	<Blinny> All companies in the US have stock. You specify type and amount when you sign the articles of incorporation.
11:08	<warren> and owning stock in a government gives you voting rights
11:09	<ogra_cmpc> Blinny, canonical is no US company
11:09	<Blinny> ogra_cmpc: I know this. Just adding to the discussion (:
11:09	<jammcq> i'm sure canonical has stock. they just haven't decided to allow others to own any of it
11:09	<Blinny> Or not, depending on your perspective.
11:09	<jammcq> my company has stock. I own it all
11:10	<ogra_cmpc> Blinny, well, i'm lying i think we just opened or are just opening a US branch
11:11	<warren> jammcq, when is your IPO?
11:11	<jammcq> never
11:11	<warren> jammcq, you could trade on pinksheets tomorrow =)
11:12	<jammcq> when a company goes public, that's when they stop caring about the customers and focus on the shareholders
11:12	<ogra_cmpc> right
11:12	<warren> jammcq, business model: go public, sell shares, lose lots of money, buy back shares at a discount, go private
11:12	<ogra_cmpc> the day canonical becomes stok noted i'll resign
11:12	<jammcq> my feeling has always been: Take care of the customer, the bottom line will take care of itself
11:13	<ogra_cmpc> i have seen to many bad things in my nearly 40 years because of stocks
11:14	<jammcq> the last company I worked for went public. raised about 60 million. the guys at the top were lighing cigars with hundred dollar bills. 2 months later, the bottom dropped out of the US stock market, most of those guys got canned
11:14	<cyberorg> jammcq, could you name the people in jim_mcquillan_07.pdf ?
11:14	<ogra_cmpc> even if they dont
11:14	tux_440volt has joined #ltsp
11:15	<jammcq> cyberorg: where's that pic?
11:15	<cyberorg> jammcq, LTSP Hackfest – sept 2006
11:15	<jammcq> url ?
11:15	<cyberorg> second last slide
11:15	<ogra_cmpc> look at BMW or VW ... they are at the edge, you cant pull out more revenue ... so they start mass firing people to gain more
11:15	<cyberorg> http://www.nclinux.net/downloads/jim_mcquillan_07.pdf
11:16	abadger1999 has joined #ltsp
11:16	K_O-Gnom has quit IRC
11:16	aleki\|away is now known as alekibango
11:17	<ogra_cmpc> ah, thats one of these http://people.ubuntu.com/~ogra/detroit_hackfest_pics/
11:17	<warren> Folks, don't touch ltspfs-trunk. bzr crashed during the upgrade. james_w is looking at it.
11:17	<jammcq> ah, ok. far left, with glasses holding a beer. that's sbalneav. then Warren, vagrantc, ogra, eHarrison, me, gadi and Godfodder
11:18	speaking of sbalneav, where the heck is he?
11:18	<ogra_cmpc> he called my mobile when i didnt have it with me on the weekend
11:18	so he was alive at least some days ago
11:18	<jammcq> didn't have your mobile?
11:18	I talked to him on sunday
11:18	he seemed like things were settling down for him
11:19	<ogra_cmpc> i left it at home when i went to my parents place
11:19	<jammcq> meaning he'd be hangout out here more
11:19	elisboa has joined #ltsp
11:20	<warren> are we doing a hackfest in portland?
11:20	<jammcq> that's what I'm thinking
11:20	me and sbalneav are game for it
11:21	<vagrantc> i'm game, of course :)
11:21	<ogra_cmpc> hmm
11:21	i still didnt get a reply from my ppl
11:21	<jammcq> ogra_cmpc: do you have your mobile now?
11:21	<ogra_cmpc> indeed
11:21	psycodad has quit IRC
11:21	<ogra_cmpc> err
11:21	<jammcq> cool. yer phone is gonna ring
11:21	<ogra_cmpc> at leqast i thought so
11:21	well, then i'll find it soon
11:21	:)
11:22	psycodad has joined #ltsp
11:22	<ogra_cmpc> got it
11:23	joebob777as7 has joined #ltsp
11:23	<joebob777as7> does edubuntu hardy do compiz for ltsp clients yet?
11:23	<stgraber> joebob777as7: no
11:24	<ogra_cmpc> or yes, who knows
11:24	nobody tests that
11:24	<cyberorg> anyone want to check out GSoC proposal by praveer_cool ? http://forgeftp.novell.com//kiwi-ltsp/GSoC_Proposal_draft_6.pdf
11:24	<stgraber> last I tried it didn't but that was Alpha-5 or Alpha-6
11:25	* vagrantc wonders when there's going to be google summer of bugfixes
11:25	<ogra_cmpc> stgraber, you surely need a custom xorg.conf etc
11:25	<vagrantc> to some degree, the last thing the world needs is more code...
11:25	<ogra_cmpc> vagrantc, if any of the SoC preojects ever finishes something :P
11:25	<cyberorg> vagrantc, it is going to be work on ltsp-manager
11:25	<vagrantc> cyberorg: yeah, i read the pastebot post or whatever
11:26	<ogra_cmpc> after four SoC's i got to disappointed with te quality ... last round i refused to mentor
11:26	<cyberorg> vagrantc, yup, now it is more proper shape http://pastebin.ca/958234
11:26	* dtrask-away is away: I'm back!
11:26	* dtrask-away is back.
11:26	dtrask-away is now known as dtrask
11:27	<daduke> vagrantc: new ldm, hm? cool. directX back in da house? I'll try asap.
11:27	<vagrantc> daduke: indeed!
11:27	daduke: just in sid.
11:27	<daduke> vagrantc: you rule.
11:27	<vagrantc> daduke: well, actually in incoming.
11:28	daduke: well, sbalneav and warren did most of the work. i just touched it up and uploaded. :)
11:28	<daduke> vagrantc: youtube is a bit choppy with the ssh tunnel...
11:28	<ogra_cmpc> daduke, you get more than a slieshow ? thats impressive
11:28	<daduke> ok, biggy ups to warren and sbalneav then!
11:29	<warren> ogra_cmpc, I have freaking compiz spinning a cube through ssh
11:29	<daduke> ogra_cmpc: slideshow is a good term.
11:29	<warren> ogra_cmpc, now in F9, with a movie playing on one side of the cube
11:31	<daduke> btw, does anybody have a good solution to boot LTSP clients not via network? I was thinking about creating a boot CD with bootcdwrite, but so far it does not actually well, boot.
11:32	we'd like to hand out such a CD to students who then could boot their notebooks and use them as LTSP clients..
11:32	<laga> daduke: i've got some sample scripts to create bootable usb pen drives or cd images.
11:32	<joebob777as7> compiz should work out of the box for thin clients that can handle it. end of story.
11:32	joebob777as7 has left #ltsp
11:32	<vagrantc> daduke: load the kernel and initrd off the cd, and / from the network ... or the whole system on a CD ?
11:33	<laga> hah
11:33	what an ass (joebob777as7)
11:33	<daduke> laga: sounds good.. full LTSP setup?
11:33	<laga> daduke: no, just the kernel and friends, / is pulled over the network
11:33	<vagrantc> laga: i think it needs a four-letter work appended to the 3 letter word.
11:34	<laga> heh
11:34	<vagrantc> er, prepended.
11:34	<laga> xxxxass?
11:34	huh?
11:34	<daduke> vagrantc, laga: if possible, we'd like to avoid registering these notebooks in our network. This would be necessary for NFS boot...
11:35	<laga> daduke: "registering in your network"? what does that mean?
11:35	<daduke> laga: well we require all hosts to be registered with our DHCP server and stuff... policy...
11:35	<vagrantc> daduke: and you want to work around your network policy?
11:36	<laga> ah.. and how are students gonna use their notebooks in that network then?
11:36	<jammcq> umm, register them?
11:36	<daduke> vagrantc: no, of course not, but then we could use the public network to just hand out LTSP sessions or something.. I haven't planned the whole thing yet.
11:37	<vagrantc> daduke: i don't see why you still can't use the public network to provide LTSP sessions ...
11:37	Guaraldo has joined #ltsp
11:37	<daduke> vagrantc: I could and I can and I'd like to, but there's no NFS on the public net
11:37	<vagrantc> daduke: by policy, or what?
11:38	<daduke> vagrantc: by both policy and routing, yes.
11:38	<laga> ah, so you probably want a complete LTSP environment on that boot disk and usen LDM to connect to the server then..
11:38	<daduke> laga: that's what I'm talking about. thank you ;)
11:38	<Gadi> daduke: are you in the US?
11:38	<daduke> Gadi: .ch
11:38	<vagrantc> that shouldn't be too hard, as long as you can still dynamically get ip addresses somehow.
11:39	<laga> yeah
11:39	that might be a fun project, actually
11:39	<daduke> laga: that's why I'm asking.
11:39	<laga> i wonder if you can just turn a /opt/ltsp/i386 into a bootable disk using live-scripts..
11:40	or even better, just remaster a ubuntu disk to include ltsp-client
11:40	<daduke> instead of giving them an Ubuntu CD, they could take our LTSP CD and have their 100% setup.
11:40	<vagrantc> daduke: although, if you're using debian ... you may as well just use debian-live instead of ltsp ...
11:40	makghosh has joined #ltsp
11:41	<vagrantc> hmmm...
11:41	<daduke> vagrantc: does it include ldm and everything? creating xorg.conf and all?
11:41	<ogra_cmpc> warren, with plain ssh connection ?
11:41	<vagrantc> daduke: it is a tool to build whatever you want.
11:41	* ogra_cmpc shall send greetings from scott who just phoned
11:41	<warren> ogra_cmpc, yes
11:42	<cliebow> Scottie!!!
11:42	<warren> ogra_cmpc, very fast machine on both ends of course
11:42	<ogra_cmpc> h'll be around after 15:00 localtime (whatever that means :) )
11:43	<vagrantc> ogra_cmpc: i think about 5-6 hours.
11:43	<ogra_cmpc> ah
11:43	<vagrantc> unless he's not at home.
11:43	<ogra_cmpc> i could have asked how many hours :)
11:43	<vagrantc> or is it 6-7 ...
11:44	erm.
11:44	i had the wrong timezone information ...
11:44	<ogra_cmpc> winnipeg :)
11:45	<vagrantc> well, i was in a chroot that still had pacific, thinking i was on eastern ...
11:45	ogra_cmpc: 3 hours is my latest estimate
11:46	<cliebow> vagrantc, 8~)
11:46	<daduke> vagrantc: ah ok. do you happen to have some nice example or something?
11:46	<vagrantc> daduke: irc.debian.org #debian-live
11:47	daduke: but it probably wouldn't be hard to make an ltsp CD and/or USB image plugin...
11:47	<daduke> vagrantc: ok, thanks, CD and USB would be nice.
11:47	<vagrantc> or hard-disk, for that matter ...
11:47	daduke: i'll add it to my long TODO list ... :)
11:47	* ogra_cmpc wonders why daduke doesnt just take casper and the ubuntu nbd squashfs ...
11:48	<daduke> ogra_cmpc: who's casper?
11:48	<ogra_cmpc> its a matter ofan afternoon to touch that up to a CD or USb image
11:48	daduke, the initramfs script used to boot liveCDs, USB sticks etc
11:48	<vagrantc> and if it's easy to do in an afternoon, it's probably feasible to write a plugin in half a day :)
11:48	<ogra_cmpc> i think its used by debian-live as well
11:49	<vagrantc> ogra_cmpc: they forked it into live-initramfs
11:49	<ogra_cmpc> vagrantc, that cant be a polugin ...
11:49	<vagrantc> ogra_cmpc: sure could be a plugin.
11:49	Guaraldo has left #ltsp
11:49	<ogra_cmpc> it must wrap around ltsp-build-client
11:49	<vagrantc> nah.
11:49	<ogra_cmpc> well, you need an image
11:49	<vagrantc> i've got to do some re-writing of ltsp-update-image anyways ... i'll keep it in mind.
11:49	<daduke> one general question: would it be feasible to use LTSP terminal server OS != client OS? is ldm sufficiently compatible across versions and flavors?
11:50	<ogra_cmpc> nope
11:50	<vagrantc> daduke: there is no LTSP terminal server. it's just a collection of software.
11:50	<ogra_cmpc> atv least in former versions
11:50	<daduke> ogra_cmpc: then I can't use ubuntu and casper. To answer your question ;)
11:50	<ogra_cmpc> ldm should be in a state where that slowly settles
11:50	<daduke> vagrantc: yeah I know. ldm versions then
11:51	<vagrantc> daduke: but basically, kind of, sort of, ldm works on any machine that supports "ssh -X" and has a /etc/X11/Xsession and a window manager ...
11:51	<ogra_cmpc> but currently you should always use a matching ldm version to your ltsp version
11:51	oh
11:51	that isnt true for debian anymore though
11:51	<Gadi> vagrantc: is there an env variable for the plugin directory that I can use within an l-b-c plugin?
11:51	<ogra_cmpc> since vagrantc choose to introduce new versioning
11:52	<Gadi> eg. I want to copy a file from the plugin dir to the chroot
11:52	<daduke> ok, so the way to go would be getting our etch LTSP client fs booting from CD/stick then.
11:52	<vagrantc> Gadi: not an environment variable, but you can add custom plugins in /etc/ltsp/plugins/ltsp-build-client/ and /usr/share/ltsp/plugins/ltsp-build-client/${DISTRO}-custom
11:52	<ogra_cmpc> vagrantc, well, you have ldminfod and ltspfs
11:53	both usually need a certain version due to the changes that happened betwween releases
11:53	<Gadi> vagrantc: right - but then I want the plugin to cp something from $plugindir/myFile to $ROOT/myfile
11:53	do I need to hardcode the plugin dir?
11:53	* vagrantc looks
11:54	<Gadi> hmm... actually, I guess I dont need to do it that way
11:54	<ogra_cmpc> daduke, as long as you keep the ssh tunnel ... directx will have the same probs xdmcp has if you have heavily diverging X versions between client and server
11:54	<vagrantc> Gadi: there's MODULES_BASE (/usr/share/ltsp) PLUGINS_BASE ($MODULES_BASE/plugins) and then a list of PLUGIN_DIRS
11:54	<Gadi> I can roll the file into one of my packages instead
11:55	<vagrantc> Gadi: yeah, just have your plugin hard-code the file to copy from/to or something.
11:55	<Gadi> ok, thx
11:55	<vagrantc> Gadi: or add it in a package to install in the chroot
11:55	probably saner to have it in a package, if that isn't too much work...
11:55	<Gadi> agreed
11:56	<daduke> ogra_cmpc: right. My initial idea was to create a bootable CD with bootcdwrite. It failed. I suspect it's because of the broken mtab in etch LTSP
11:56	<vagrantc> so the big scary thing i want to work on one of these days ... is an etch -> lenny upgrade path for the ltsp chroot.
11:57	<ogra_cmpc> daduke, omit the fstab creating plugin then
11:57	err
11:57	mtab
11:57	there is a plugijn that links mtab to /proc/mounts
11:57	<daduke> ogra_cmpc: so far, I don't know anything about plugins in bootcd. I just installed and ran it.
11:58	<ogra_cmpc> daduke, i'm talking about ltsp-build-client :)
11:58	<daduke> ogra_cmpc: I tried the ln -s, but it doesn't work in the chroot.
11:58	ogra_cmpc: ah right. sorry.
11:58	<ogra_cmpc> you need to have proc mounted while creating the link indeed :)
11:58	<daduke> ogra_cmpc: exactly.
11:58	<ogra_cmpc> which ltsp-build-client does for you
11:59	<daduke> ogra_cmpc: I tried with a static file, but to no avail.
11:59	<ogra_cmpc> just add an override pligun wiht the same name
11:59	daduke, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HowtoWriteLTSP5Plugins
12:00	<daduke> if this is something that could be interesting for other ppl too, maybe we should direct my efforts in the most general direction...
12:00	<ogra_cmpc> put it in /etc/ltsp/plugins/ltsp-build-client/
12:01	<daduke> ogra_cmpc: hmm, but my client is built already... I just need my ltsp chroot on CD ;)
12:01	kushal has joined #ltsp
12:02	<ogra_cmpc> that wont work without modifications
12:03	<kushal> warren, hi
12:03	<ogra_cmpc> at least if you want to boot it standalone ... if you just want to mount and export it on the server it should just wiork
12:05	<daduke> ogra_cmpc: why's that exactly?
12:06	ogra_cmpc: the not working part I mean..
12:07	psycodad_ has joined #ltsp
12:10	<dberkholz> !seen johnny
12:10	<ltspbot> dberkholz: johnny was last seen in #ltsp 2 days, 11 hours, 39 minutes, and 59 seconds ago: <johnny> i guess you should check launchpad for bugs
12:10	<ogra_cmpc> daduke, the initramfs will want to boot from network .... either nfs or nbd .... you need at least a custom initramfs but likely more modifictions
12:11	<daduke> ogra_cmpc: ok, that makes sense. I'll look into it tomorrow.
12:11	thanks for your time, everybody!
12:11	<kushal> warren, I bought a new Ethernet card :)
12:12	psycodad has quit IRC
12:27	* dtrask is away: One of my users is exclaiming "I can't do email!"
12:27	dtrask is now known as dtrask-away
12:28	K_O-Gnom has joined #ltsp
12:29	<laga> dtrask-away: can you disable public away?
12:31	abadger1999 has quit IRC
12:31	tux_440volt is now known as Subhodip
12:32	abadger1999 has joined #ltsp
12:33	plamengr has joined #ltsp
12:34	elisboa_ has joined #ltsp
12:34	elisboa has quit IRC
12:43	chup has joined #ltsp
12:44	chupa has quit IRC
12:45	makghosh has quit IRC
12:46	dtrask-away is now known as dtrask
12:46	dtrask has left #ltsp
12:46	<Q-FUNK> hm?
12:48	<vagrantc> warren: status on the bzr upgrade?
12:53	<Q-FUNK> warren: I am now
12:54	<warren> vagrantc, had a failure
12:54	vagrantc, I was tlaking with upstream if it was a dangerous failure or not
12:54	<vagrantc> warren: yes, i saw that ...
12:55	<warren> vagrantc, I'll try to tag and push ltspfs since it is the smallest one
12:55	<vagrantc> hmmm... probably would have been better to relocate the branch and upgrade locally ...
12:55	<warren> vagrantc, I tried that, but according to #bzr there's no way to do it locally and push it
12:55	vagrantc, unless you want everyone to bzr pull from scratch
12:56	<vagrantc> hm.
12:56	well, pulling from scratch isn't so evil.
12:56	dtrask has joined #ltsp
12:56	<warren> we agreed on ltspfs-0.5.0 right?
12:56	<Q-FUNK> warren: was there anything in particular?
12:57	<warren> Q-FUNK, oh yeah, I got to the point where I need to be testing fedora and linuxbios but I have none
12:57	dtrask has left #ltsp
12:57	<vagrantc> warren: that was in the proposal. nobody objected to versions just yet.
12:58	mistik1 has quit IRC
12:58	<warren> Q-FUNK, it matters a bit more than other parts because I need to write an entirely independent set of scripts to do it as Ubuntu's are not usable for me
12:59	<Q-FUNK> ok
13:05	* ogra_cmpc doesnt care as long as its higher than the current one we use
13:06	<ogra_cmpc> s/higher/higher or equal/
13:09	makghosh has joined #ltsp
13:09	<vagrantc> ogra_cmpc: "we" ?
13:10	ogra_cmpc: i guess the only major divergence is ldm
13:10	<ogra_cmpc> vagrantc, debian has ltspfs 0.5.0~something ... ubuntu does as well ..
13:10	mistik1 has joined #ltsp
13:10	<ogra_cmpc> etch had 0.4 as well as edgy, feisty, gutsy
13:10	<vagrantc> etch didn't even have ltspfs
13:11	<ogra_cmpc> oh
13:11	i'm getting confused by all your backports :)
13:11	<vagrantc> heh
13:11	yeah, i tend to keep backports of whatever's basically current
13:11	not every upload to unstable gets backported, but most of them.
13:11	<ogra_cmpc> anyway it would be nice to continue the versioning scheme we ionce agreed on
13:11	*once
13:12	<vagrantc> i think 0.5.0 is good. i intentionally used 0.5.0~bzr* knowing that it was larger than 0.5+debian* ... think i looked at the ubuntu version, too.
13:12	but smaller than 0.5.0
13:13	<ogra_cmpc> thanks for that
13:13	* vagrantc loves ~ revisions
13:13	<ogra_cmpc> i'll go on using your ltspfs
13:13	probably ldm as well next release
13:13	<vagrantc> that'd be great.
13:13	<ogra_cmpc> even though i still heavily disagree abotu your versioning
13:13	<vagrantc> ogra_cmpc: i just couldn't call ldm 5.* anymore. :)
13:14	<ogra_cmpc> ldm was always part of ltsp and should use the same versioning scheme that was discussed
13:14	<vagrantc> ogra_cmpc: no, it was only part of ltsp5
13:14	<ogra_cmpc> right thats what i say
13:14	and we agreed on 5.0.something with the feitsty release for all ltsp stuff at least between you, scott jim and me
13:15	<vagrantc> at one point, there was talk of actually calling it ldm2, and giving it a new versioning ... we dropped the ldm2 part, but the version number was still in the code.
13:15	<ogra_cmpc> yeah, indeed
13:16	the rewrite was called ldm2 but when i wrote that initially i had in mind to replace ldm with it and when scott took over he didnt yet know how to version it
13:16	<vagrantc> though now we should move towards 2.x.y ... which for debian and ubuntu means adding the 2: epoch
13:16	<ogra_cmpc> damned epoch ...
13:16	i'll consider it in intrepid
13:17	<vagrantc> i was stuck in a quandry, seeing one version in the code and one version in ubuntu ... and leaning towards the code.
13:17	<ogra_cmpc> if ldm gets an initscript and can run standalone i will happily switch versions
13:17	but currently i still consider it a part of ltsp
13:17	<vagrantc> ogra_cmpc: well, i wrote a crude init script
13:17	<ogra_cmpc> 6 months time to add it :)
13:17	<vagrantc> not one i would install by default, but a proof of concept.
13:18	<ogra_cmpc> i would add it by default but break policy and not run it by default
13:18	not sure if you could get through with that in debian
13:19	<vagrantc> implementing "Pax Displayicus Managerius" is a pain.
13:19	<ogra_cmpc> heh, well, there are other DMs to steal from
13:19	xdm should be pretty straightforward to grab from
13:19	<vagrantc> that's exactly the problem... other extremely complicated code to steal...
13:20	<cyberorg> i still call it ldm2 in my packages
13:20	<vagrantc> the scripts are written with steel ibeams instead of plain text.
13:20	cyberorg: eeyk.
13:20	<ogra_cmpc> ugh
13:20	<cyberorg> vagrantc, that was since when it was known as ldm2
13:20	<vagrantc> cyberorg: if you can switch it to just ldm before releasing, that might be good.
13:21	<ogra_cmpc> thats over a year ago
13:21	<cyberorg> vagrantc, yeah, will do that
13:21	ogra_cmpc, it is in my repo since then :)
13:21	<ogra_cmpc> it wasnt called ldm2 anymore when it entered gutsy
13:21	<vagrantc> ogra_cmpc: i think a lot of the docs only recently were updated though.
13:21	<rjent> Greetings, why would a flash web app run slow over a thin client with ltsp but not vnc?
13:21	<ogra_cmpc> s/over/nearly/
13:22	<cyberorg> first ldm i got working was python one
13:23	chup has quit IRC
13:23	<cyberorg> i still got that one in here http://download.opensuse.org/repositories/home:/cyberorg/openSUSE_10.3/i586/
13:23	<gvy> warren, ayt?
13:23	<cyberorg> so never changed ldm2 back to ldm, now i must
13:23	<warren> ?
13:23	<gvy> ltsp5-altlinux should be somewhat ready to be merged
13:24	http://ftp.linux.kiev.ua/pub/Linux/ALT/people/led/bzr/ltsp/ltsp-altlinux/
13:24	chup has joined #ltsp
13:24	<warren> gvy, I told you I wont have time to work on upstreaming until Fedora 9 is done
13:24	<gvy> warren, i remember, but jfyi
13:24	<ogra_cmpc> gvy, i have time if the ubuntu release is out
13:24	same prob on my side
13:24	<vagrantc> gvy: i'll pull it and glance.
13:24	<gvy> ogra_cmpc, thanks
13:25	vagrantc, thanks 8)
13:25	<warren> ogra_cmpc, I semi-hosed ltspfs-trunk in launchpad because bzr crashed during upgrade
13:25	ogra_cmpc, can you get a launchpad admin to revert the tree to pre-upgrade?
13:25	<ogra_cmpc> warren, as long as you fix it until i start intrepid i'm fine ... i'm using vagrants packages 1:1 in hardy
13:25	<vagrantc> :)
13:26	should i just merge the patches to start cdpinger from udev ? i think they work, though they may need more testing.
13:26	<ogra_cmpc> grrrrrrrrr ^%&#%@#$
13:26	!!
13:26	<ltspbot> ogra_cmpc: Error: "!" is not a valid command.
13:26	<warren> ogra_cmpc, is there any better way to upgrade the repo format in launchpad? somebody in #bzr told me to do bzr upgrade --pack-0.92 sftp://username@... but that seems like a really bad way to do it.
13:26	* ogra_cmpc starts to hate his image builder
13:26	<gvy> vagrantc, r691..697 there should represent the diff (plus a bit of shuffling of specific files), more or less fine-grained
13:27	<warren> vagrantc, which source repo will that go in?
13:27	<vagrantc> gvy: this connection is so slow. maybe i should wait till i get to spain. :)
13:27	<warren> vagrantc, where does cdpinger get started from now?
13:27	vagrantc, is the current place where cdpinger is launched known reliable?
13:27	<ogra_cmpc> warren, well, you should do it remotely on LP so that seems like the most sane way
13:27	* gvy hands mkimage to ogra_cmpc
13:27	<vagrantc> warren: currently, we start it from ltsp's init scripts, but i want to start it from ltspfs's udev rules. much more sane.
13:27	<gvy> vagrantc, ouch
13:27	<warren> ogra_cmpc, except in this case bzr crashed mid-way
13:28	ogra_cmpc, I need an admin to fix it
13:28	<ogra_cmpc> gvy, my image builder is a pretty custom thing
13:28	<gvy> mkimage too. :)
13:28	<warren> vagrantc, which init script?
13:28	<gvy> oh well
13:28	<vagrantc> warren: well, the current approach doesn't handle usb cdroms that aren't inserted at boot time very well.
13:28	<ogra_cmpc> gvy, i mean custom enough to not use one of the fifty options i have in ubuntu anyway :)
13:28	<gvy> vagrantc, just in case: there are roughly 10k more of the patch as cleanups, i think it's reasonable to move on as the first part is ok/fixed
13:28	<vagrantc> warren: i don't remember if it's ltsp-core or ltsp-setup ... grep cdrom ...
13:29	<gvy> ogra_cmpc, 8)
13:29	<ogra_cmpc> warren, i'll try but i cant do anything beyond pinging kiko or so in #launchpad either
13:29	<warren> vagrantc, hmm, that means I'm currently not using cdpingr
13:29	<vagrantc> warren: do you support CDs at all?
13:29	<warren> vagrantc, I haven't got ltspfs working at all
13:29	<vagrantc> warren: ah.
13:29	<warren> I can't use your initscripts
13:30	<ogra_cmpc> warren, yeah you broke ldm by removing the -ac :P
13:30	so ltspfs cant work
13:30	<vagrantc> warren: well, the udev approach is certainly the way to go anyways in the long term, it's just catching all the rules that might apply.
13:30	* ogra_cmpc hides
13:30	<warren> ogra_cmpc, ltspfs relied on the -ac?
13:30	<vagrantc> ogra_cmpc: never broke for me
13:30	<ogra_cmpc> warren, iirc that was the reason why -ac was added at all
13:30	<vagrantc> ogra_cmpc: it was added before ltspfs even worked
13:31	<ogra_cmpc> before we had the proper tunnel/socket stuff
13:31	<vagrantc> ogra_cmpc: very, very early in the process.
13:31	<ogra_cmpc> vagrantc, it was only added because ltspfs auth didnt work
13:31	<vagrantc> ogra_cmpc: in the first 30-70 commits, if i recall.
13:31	<ogra_cmpc> we didnt use lbus so had no auth mechanism at all
13:32	scottie might know more details
13:32	<vagrantc> but ltspfs didn't even work till much later ...
13:33	i guess y'all were trying to get it to work
13:33	<ogra_cmpc> that was in edgy
13:33	edgy was the first release with localdev support
13:33	<vagrantc> right. this was committed pre-breezy.
13:33	i know that.
13:33	<ogra_cmpc> so -ac must have hit the code between dapper and edgy
13:33	<vagrantc> before breezy.
13:33	i've looked at the commits.
13:34	<ogra_cmpc> before breezy there was no ltsp5 :)
13:34	* warren has no idea what these names are.
13:34	<ogra_cmpc> warren, ubuntu releases
13:34	<vagrantc> ogra_cmpc: it was started in may of 2005, breezy was released in october of 2005.
13:34	<ogra_cmpc> breezy was 5.10 (oct 2005)
13:34	vagrantc, hmm
13:34	<vagrantc> breezy was the first ubuntu release to have anything like ltsp5
13:34	brun2 has joined #ltsp
13:35	<ogra_cmpc> then mdz must have added it .... but i really remember that differently
13:35	<vagrantc> skolelinux actually included it a little bit earlier
13:35	Q-FUNK has quit IRC
13:35	<vagrantc> ogra_cmpc: yes, it goes all the way back to mdz.
13:35	<ogra_cmpc> breezy had that shitty looking ldm with one gtk win centered
13:36	<cyberorg> i am using ubuntu's init script slightly modified https://forgesvn1.novell.com/viewsvn/kiwi-ltsp/trunk/suse-ltsp-client/etc/init.d/ltsp-client.init?revision=95&view=markup
13:36	<ogra_cmpc> and two input fields
13:36	<vagrantc> ogra_cmpc: you could toss it in a playful jab over drinks sometime.
13:36	<warren> OK, ltspfsd is running on the client, but plugging a USB stick nothing happens
13:36	<ogra_cmpc> warren, you need the scripts and udev rules
13:36	<warren> ogra_cmpc, any thoughts on what I should do becase ltspfs-trunk is hosed?
13:36	<vagrantc> ogra_cmpc: "you made ldm soooo insecure!"
13:36	<warren> ogra_cmpc, which scripts and udev rules?
13:37	deavid has quit IRC
13:37	<brun2> hi all, I have two servers of LTSP, one with LTSP 5.0 install from Ubuntu 7.05 and other LTSP 4.2 install from www.ltsp.org package run in Debian Stable, in LTSP 4.2 my thinkclient working good but in LTSP 5.0 I can't execute X, anyone can I help me ?
13:37	<ogra_cmpc> warren, add/remove_fstab_entry
13:38	brun2, what graphics cards do your clients have ?
13:38	<brun2> trident
13:38	<vagrantc> ogra_cmpc: "-ac" was in revision 198 ... dated 2005-09-09 ... not sure if it was introduced earlier.
13:38	<warren> I just had someone complain about trident on my list
13:38	<ogra_cmpc> was that my commit ?
13:39	<vagrantc> ogra_cmpc: mdz.
13:39	<ogra_cmpc> vagrantc, phew
13:39	<warren> brun2, is a cyberfb or something kernel module loading?
13:39	<brun2> The question is, in LTSP 4.2 ( Debian ) work but LTSP 5.0 ( Ubuntu ) do not work
13:39	<vagrantc> ogra_cmpc: like i said, a playful jab over drinks someday :)
13:39	<warren> vagrantc, who committed?
13:39	<brun2> kernel module
13:40	<vagrantc> warren: mdz, matt zimmerman
13:40	<ogra_cmpc> brun2, 4.2 is ancient and uses a very old xorg
13:40	<warren> who is that?
13:40	<vagrantc> warren: did most of the initial work on ltsp5 in ubuntu
13:40	<ogra_cmpc> warren, my CTO
13:40	we all base on hgis code :)
13:40	*his
13:40	<brun2> suggestion for resolv my problem ?
13:41	or in xorg new vga trident not work ?
13:41	<ogra_cmpc> brun2, create an lts.conf and add SCREEEN_)&=ldm and SCREEN_02=startx
13:41	<warren> OK, I see /lib/udev/add_fstab_entry
13:41	what else do I need to put down?
13:41	<ogra_cmpc> brun2, then boot a client and have a look at the xorg logfile in /var/log on the second console
13:42	it should tell about whats wrong
13:42	<warren> ogra_cmpc, an X.org 1.5 user reported they got it to work by preventing the cyberfb module from loading
13:42	<brun2> ok, one minute, test configuration
13:42	<vagrantc> ogra_cmpc: correction ... "-ac" was present in revision 54, 2005-06-08
13:42	<warren> How do I list all files installed by a package with dpkg?
13:42	<vagrantc> ogra_cmpc: the very first commit with ldm in it.
13:42	<ogra_cmpc> warren, i think i have a properly working trident client upstairs
13:43	<warren> ogra_cmpc, there might be different chipsets...
13:43	<brun2> thzx
13:43	<vagrantc> warren: an installed package, or a .deb file ?
13:43	<ogra_cmpc> warren, indeed
13:43	<warren> vagrantc, installed
13:43	<vagrantc> warren: dpkg -L packagename
13:43	<warren> vagrantc, I'm trying to list everything installed by ltsp-client in this old chroot you gave me
13:43	<vagrantc> warren: depending on what version, ltsp-client-core
13:44	<ogra_cmpc> warren, you also need ltspfs on the server side
13:44	<warren> oh wait, this is an edubuntu chroot
13:44	<ogra_cmpc> to state the obvious :)
13:44	<cyberorg> warren, if you install packages from here http://widehat.opensuse.org/repositories/server:/ltsp/Fedora_8/ it should just work
13:45	<warren> odd... according to dpkg -L neither ltsp-core or ltsp-client-core are installed in /opt/ltsp/i386
13:45	steph_ has joined #ltsp
13:45	<warren> cyberorg, I am not touching your packages.
13:45	<ogra_cmpc> warren, how old is that chroot
13:45	we split ltsp-client at some point
13:45	<cyberorg> warren, they are built on fedora 8 using fedora 8 chroot
13:46	<ogra_cmpc> initially there was only ltsp-client
13:46	<cyberorg> but as you wish :)
13:46	<vagrantc> warren: well, the package names are ltsp-client and ltsp-client-core
13:46	<warren> oops, I mean ltsp-client
13:46	<vagrantc> warren: the init scripts are ltsp-client(-core) and ltsp-client-setup
13:46	<cyberorg> get src.rpm and rebuild http://widehat.opensuse.org/repositories/server:/ltsp/Fedora_8/src/
13:46	<brun2> ogra_cmpc, do not work with configuration, screen lock when loading ldm\
13:47	<ogra_cmpc> brun2, do you get to a console with ctrl-alt-f2 ?
13:47	<warren> cyberorg, there's no udev rules in your RPMS here
13:47	cyberorg, how could this posisbly owrk?
13:47	<brun2> ogra_cmpc, no
13:47	<cyberorg> warren, look carefully 88-ltsp-rules
13:48	<warren> cyberorg, ltsp-client?
13:48	<ogra_cmpc> brun2, hmm, that sounds more serious than just X
13:48	<cyberorg> warren, could be in ltspfs
13:48	<ogra_cmpc> brun2, what are the rest of the specs for this client ? cpu, ram etc
13:48	<warren> cyberorg, oh, my ltspfsd already has 88-ltsp-rules and the udev rules
13:49	cyberorg, probably because you built this using my spec
13:49	<brun2> ogra_cmpc, Geode, 256 mb ram, 100 Mbit Ethernet
13:49	<cyberorg> warren, i build this since last year, you didn't exist then ;)
13:50	<brun2> and vga trident
13:50	<cyberorg> i incorporated your changes to build fedora packages along with suse
13:50	<ogra_cmpc> brun2, geode ? i thought trident
13:50	brun2, so you have two graphics cards in there ?
13:50	<warren> cyberorg, there's no difference between your ltspfs* contents and mine
13:50	<brun2> geode is CPU
13:50	<cyberorg> warren, of course, it is upstream tarball
13:50	* gvy . o O ( the difference didn't exist since forever )
13:51	<warren> cyberorg, meaning something else is preventing it from working here
13:51	<ogra_cmpc> brun2, usually caring for onboard graphics as well
13:51	<cyberorg> warren, you need ltspd -a running in the client
13:51	*ltspfsd -a
13:51	<ogra_cmpc> brun2, is there an additional vga port on the mainboard ?
13:51	<gvy> brun2, iirc geode has vga controller embedded
13:51	<steph_> how can i install appz on the client only?
13:52	<warren> ltspfsd is running, checking the parameters...
13:52	<vagrantc> warren: so, i'm able to pull ltspfs-trunk ...
13:52	makghosh\|afk has joined #ltsp
13:52	<warren> vagrantc, it is only partially converted, but I can't convert it more because .bzr.backup exists and bzr refuses to work
13:52	vagrantc, (because it exists)
13:53	<brun2> ogra_cmpc, no
13:53	<vagrantc> warren: you can sftp in ...
13:53	<warren> vagrantc, can you delete things with sftp?
13:53	<vagrantc> i'd imagine so
13:53	<brun2> gvy, Geode = AMD Geode GX533 433 Mhz
13:53	<ogra_cmpc> brun2, if you drop the SCREEN_07 line, does it boot properly to a console ?
13:53	<cyberorg> warren, and the auto mount shows up in /tmp/.$USER-ltspfs if you dont have suid lbmount
13:54	<brun2> ogra_cmpc, yes
13:54	<warren> Geode is trident?
13:54	<ogra_cmpc> and lspci definately doesnt show a second vga card i assume ?
13:55	warren, trident is a PCI card as i understood it
13:55	<brun2> ogra_cmpc, only boot with screen X do not work, but with screen telnet, ssh, etc work perfect
13:55	<warren> hmm... ltspfsd and cdpinger are running here
13:55	ltspfsd has no parameters though
13:56	<brun2> warren, no, trident is a vga controller, geode is a processor
13:56	<gvy> warren, xorg-x11-drv-amd afair
13:56	<warren> I didn't know they made Geode with a different vga controller
13:57	<ogra_cmpc> warren, brun2 claims his geode doesnt have a vga controller
13:57	<warren> is that possible?
13:57	* ogra_cmpc hasnt seen that yet
13:57	<brun2> ogra_cmpc, correct
13:57	makghosh has quit IRC
13:57	makghosh\|afk is now known as makghosh
13:58	<vagrantc> warren: so, yes... we can move .bzr and .bzr.backup around ...
13:58	warren: should i revert it to the backup ?
13:58	<steph_> If I install a package on the client only, why the icon does't appear in the menu? Do I have to update-image?
13:58	<warren> vagrantc, sftp allows mv?
13:58	<vagrantc> warren: claims to
13:58	<warren> i just tried it here, doesn't work
13:58	vagrantc, go ahead and try
13:59	<ogra_cmpc> brun2, well, if there would be a vga controller ltsp would recognize it as the first card and try to configure the geode ... but since you claim yours doesnt have a vga controller (and lspci definately only shows one vga card) i dont have an explanation
13:59	<vagrantc> ah, permission denied
13:59	<warren> can't recurisvely delete either
13:59	<brun2> ogra_cmpc, lol, me too
13:59	<ogra_cmpc> i have a trident client that works fine here ...
14:00	can you try re adding the SCREEN_07 line and also XSERVER=vesa ?
14:00	<brun2> ogra_cmpc, I use same configuration in my two servers LTSP, 5.0 and 4.2, in 4.2 work fine but in 5.0 do not work
14:00	<ogra_cmpc> that should work on any tridenbt
14:00	brun2, you are awar4e that you dont need to configure ltsp5, right ?
14:00	<brun2> ogra_cmpc, I test with driver vesa, do not work too
14:00	<vagrantc> warren: hrm. i love upgrading my vcs format all the time.
14:01	<warren> hmm, launchpad isn't serving my needs. time to move.
14:01	j/k
14:01	<brun2> ogra_cmps, in my server 5.0 I have clients work fine, but other hardware in client
14:02	<ogra_cmpc> brun2, do you use an lts.conf with ltsp5 that contains anything beyond the two screen lines ?
14:02	(and a default section indeed)
14:02	<warren> cyberorg, hm... Debian/Ubuntu's initscripts in ltsp-trunk are not calling ltspfsd with -a
14:03	<brun2> ogra_cmpc, yes
14:03	<warren> cyberorg, we are using a common function to start ltspfsd
14:03	cyberorg, no parameters
14:03	<ogra_cmpc> brun2, can you paste it to the pastebot ?
14:03	* vagrantc suspects ltspfsd -a is much like X -ac
14:03	<ogra_cmpc> !pastebot
14:03	<ltspbot> ogra_cmpc: "pastebot" is The LTSP pastebot is at http://pastebot.ltsp.org. Please paste all text longer than a line or two to the pastebot, as it helps to reduce traffic in the channel. A link to the content will be pasted in the channel.
14:03	<ogra_cmpc> vagrantc, right
14:03	<brun2> ogra_cmpc, I guess the problam is in the package of Ubuntu
14:03	<cyberorg> warren, there was a reason why i added it, may be it was because it did not work with it
14:03	<ogra_cmpc> brun2, ltsp5 works completely different from 4.x
14:04	<cyberorg> vagrantc, could very well be :)
14:04	<warren> ltspfs is the source repo I looked least at...
14:04	<brun2> ogra_cmpc, U want I post my lts.conf in channel ?
14:04	<ogra_cmpc> brun2, no, to the pastebot
14:04	!pastebot
14:04	<ltspbot> ogra_cmpc: "pastebot" is The LTSP pastebot is at http://pastebot.ltsp.org. Please paste all text longer than a line or two to the pastebot, as it helps to reduce traffic in the channel. A link to the content will be pasted in the channel.
14:04	<ogra_cmpc> brun2, see above
14:05	<brun2> ok
14:05	<warren> vagrantc, on debian without X -ac ltspfs continues to work fine?
14:06	vagrantc, is ltspfsd running with -a?
14:06	<vagrantc> warren: this is definitely why i like to host my branches on a place where i have full access, and merely mirror them to launchpad.
14:06	<cyberorg> my idea of security is, first get everything working properly then think about it ;)
14:06	<warren> vagrantc, it wouldn't let me mirror them to launchpad
14:06	<vagrantc> warren: i'm using the init scripts in ltsp-trunk ...
14:07	<mnemoc> cyberorg: then find out you did it wrong, but leave it like that because you are out of time :\
14:07	<ltsppbot> "Bruno" pasted "lts.conf" (21 lines) at http://pastebot.ltsp.org/485
14:07	<warren> vagrantc, with the shared init-common?
14:07	<vagrantc> warren: i wonder if we can just "move" the repository through the web interface and then push a new version
14:07	<ogra_cmpc> brun2, thats 7.10 ?
14:08	<brun2> ogra_cmpc, no, 7.04
14:08	<vagrantc> warren: with client/initscripts/ltsp-init-common , yes.
14:08	<ogra_cmpc> ah, k
14:09	<cyberorg> mnemoc, well there are always +- , for me getting the entire process working and not wasting time due to misconfigured security is more appealing
14:09	<ogra_cmpc> brun2, did you try without the modeline and sync values ?
14:09	<brun2> ogra_cmpc, yes
14:09	<warren> vagrantc, could all the other files be moved into a directory under initscripts? because ltsp-init-common is the only common part
14:09	<cyberorg> and i am not in a hurry :)
14:09	<warren> ogra_cmpc, hmm, kiko can't do t
14:09	do it
14:09	<ogra_cmpc> did he say why ?
14:09	<vagrantc> warren: yeah, i guess so.
14:10	<warren> ogra_cmpc, he said he can't do it, ask on answers.launchpad.net/launchpad-bazaar
14:10	<ogra_cmpc> warren, or at least point in a helpful direction ?
14:10	<vagrantc> warren: where, i don't know, because they're not necessarily specific to debian ...
14:10	<ogra_cmpc> hrm
14:11	<warren> vagrantc, well, those initscripts are usable on distros other than debian/ubuntu?
14:11	<vagrantc> that is not a helpful pointer
14:11	warren: i don't know if they are or aren't ...
14:12	warren: there are literally thousands of debian derivatives, so i wouldn't be surprised if they do.
14:12	<warren> isn't debian a useful generic name since they are all derived from debian?
14:12	I mean, I called my directory "RPM" for lack of a better name
14:12	why not call yours DEB?
14:13	* vagrantc would prefer debian
14:13	<warren> that's fine
14:13	I don't care
14:13	I just don't want it in the base directory
14:13	<vagrantc> ok. will do it.
14:14	warren: it looks like we can just move the old branch aside and push an upgraded branch ...
14:14	warren: https://answers.launchpad.net/launchpad-bazaar/+question/20221
14:14	<cyberorg> vagrantc, init script i am using still has Author: Matt Zimmerman <mdz@ubuntu.com>
14:14	<warren> vagrantc, ok, then I'll just blow away the tree
14:14	<vagrantc> cyberorg: that's probably at least derived from the debian one.
14:15	<warren> oh crap, I need to go to an appointment now
14:15	i'll be back in 30-45 minutes
14:15	<vagrantc> warren: i'll move the branch out of the way.
14:15	warren: i think only ogra_cmpc and myself are subscribed to it ...
14:16	<ogra_cmpc> vagrantc, so you upgrade locally and push that in place then ?
14:16	<vagrantc> ogra_cmpc: i think it should work.
14:16	<ogra_cmpc> yeah
14:16	<vagrantc> renaming the current ltspfs-trunk to old-ltspfs-trunk ...
14:16	<ogra_cmpc> yeah
14:16	<warren> oh
14:16	<vagrantc> just so it's all there.
14:16	<warren> vagrantc, then all of our repos we will need to pull fresh after this
14:16	not a big loss
14:17	<vagrantc> not really.
14:17	<warren> oh, nm
14:17	bzr upgrade locally hten pull would work
14:17	gotta go, brb
14:17	Subhodip has quit IRC
14:17	<vagrantc> warren: i'll try and fix it up.
14:18	steph_ has left #ltsp
14:23	<vagrantc> hrm. well... bzr upgrade just plain doesn't work for me.
14:28	chup has quit IRC
14:28	chupa has joined #ltsp
14:28	Pascal_1 has joined #ltsp
14:29	<Pascal_1> salut !
14:30	<brun2> ogra_cmpc, u have any suggestion for test ?
14:32	<ogra_cmpc> what happens if you run startx on console ?
14:32	praveer_cool has quit IRC
14:32	<brun2> ogra_cmpc, my client stop work and I ca not change term
14:32	<ogra_cmpc> oh, and what driver is actually in the xorg.conf on the booted client
14:33	<brun2> ogra_cmpc, trident
14:33	<ogra_cmpc> weird
14:34	if the client locks up, does the numlock key still work or is it really hard locked ?
14:34	<brun2> ogra_cmpc, hard locked
14:35	* ogra_cmpc remembers what warren said earlier
14:36	<ogra_cmpc> brun2, what does: lsmod\|grep fb give you on a clien console
14:42	alekibango has quit IRC
14:43	<gvy> bb all!
14:43	see you tomorrow (hopefully)
14:44	<vagrantc> attempting to push a new ltspfs-trunk ...
14:44	deavid has joined #ltsp
14:45	<ogra_cmpc> got it upgraded ?
14:45	<vagrantc> yes
14:45	well, seems to be ...
14:46	<ogra_cmpc> kiko told warren to ask answers.l.n for how to recover the trashed branch he had ...
14:46	and told him as well to push a new one
14:47	* ogra_cmpc just had to ask ... since kiko usually is helpful
14:49	Blinny has quit IRC
14:49	<vagrantc> ogra_cmpc: you'll have to re-subscribe yourself, since i moved the old branch aside.
14:49	<ogra_cmpc> yep, will do
14:51	* ogra_cmpc headdesks a bit
14:51	Gadi has left #ltsp
14:51	<vagrantc> now maybe the append_revisions_only stuff will actually work :)
14:54	alekibango has joined #ltsp
14:55	K_O-Gnom has quit IRC
14:57	abadger1999 has quit IRC
14:57	<vagrantc> ogra_cmpc: i had to use bzr 1.3-1 from sid ... there apparently was a bug in the upgrade process ... but the format should be compatible with bzr 0.92+
14:59	<ogra_cmpc> 1.2~rc1-1build2 here
15:01	<vagrantc> well, basically i means bzr in gutsy and bzr from etch-backports should work, at least.
15:02	<ogra_cmpc> who cares about gutsy
15:02	<vagrantc> heh
15:02	somehow, i seem to care more than you :)
15:02	<ogra_cmpc> hardy will be LTS ... even gadi will switch
15:02	<vagrantc> true enough
15:03	ogra_cmpc: you know if anything's improved with the memory requirements gutsy -> hardy ...
15:03	ogra_cmpc: that was basically a blocker for freegeek to switch
15:04	ogra_cmpc: the weird thing was, it somehow seemed to require way less memory if you installed it on a machine with a slower processor.
15:04	but if you installed a faster processor, it would eat more memory.
15:04	er, switched the disk to a machine with a faster proc ..
15:06	<ogra_cmpc> well, X got a lot better wrt ram usage
15:07	<vagrantc> maybe that will make enough of a difference
15:08	elisboa_ has quit IRC
15:12	* warren upgrades to 1.3
15:12	<warren> btw, i'm glad we're doing this
15:13	slidesinger has quit IRC
15:14	<warren> ogra_cmpc, may I request that the next version of Ubuntu support tar.bz2?
15:14	<vagrantc> warren: so, the process seems to be ... move the branch using the web interface, upgrade a copy locally(with bzr 1.3(?)), and push the new copy
15:14	<warren> vagrantc, ok
15:14	vagrantc, you already did this with ltspfs-trunk?
15:14	chupa has quit IRC
15:14	<vagrantc> warren: i think debian supports .tar.bz2 now ...
15:14	warren: yes, already did that with trunk
15:14	warren: ltspfs-trunk
15:15	<ogra_cmpc> warren, ??
15:15	oh, you mean dpkg
15:15	<warren> ogra_cmpc, I'm asking for a year 1999 feature
15:15	<ogra_cmpc> well, whatever debian does
15:15	<vagrantc> warren: i also added the "append_revisions_only = True" bit to the branch.conf ... which the only way to do that is with sftp (when i tried a few months ago, that's what they told me in #launchpad)
15:15	chupa has joined #ltsp
15:15	<ogra_cmpc> usually our fixes for dpkg happen directly in debian
15:16	<warren> vagrantc, https://code.launchpad.net/~ltsp-upstream/+authoredbranches ltspfs isn't appearing here
15:16	<ogra_cmpc> so we should be identical here
15:17	<vagrantc> warren: https://code.launchpad.net/~ltsp-upstream/
15:17	warren: appears there.
15:17	<ogra_cmpc> warren, Registrant != Author :)
15:17	<vagrantc> warren: found where to change the author
15:18	changed.
15:19	<warren> weird
15:19	<vagrantc> make sense ...
15:19	<warren> I thought my 0.5.0 pushed failed
15:19	<vagrantc> warren: i seemed to get it ...
15:20	* vagrantc resists the urge to release simply to get a shorter version string.
15:20	K_O-Gnom has joined #ltsp
15:20	<warren> vagrantc, you know you want it!
15:20	vagrantc, so ~ means before that number?
15:21	<vagrantc> warren: yeah ... so 0.5.0~ is always less than 0.5.0, no matter what comes after the ~
15:21	warren: it's an extremely handy convention
15:21	<ogra_cmpc> a safety net for developers
15:21	<warren> I wish we had something like that
15:21	does dpkg have something like the much hated RPM epoch?
15:21	<ogra_cmpc> its not really an old feature
15:21	yeah
15:21	<vagrantc> warren: yup. using it for ldm.
15:21	<ogra_cmpc> anfd vagrantc added one to ldm
15:21	grrr
15:22	<vagrantc> warren: also mcuhly hated.
15:22	<Pascal_1> hello
15:22	<ogra_cmpc> pizza
15:22	<warren> Hey, we can hate together!
15:22	* ogra_cmpc &
15:23	<vagrantc> heh.
15:23	<warren> https://code.launchpad.net/bzr-gtk /me wonders where to find the tarballs
15:24	<ogra_cmpc> warren, tarballs are so 1999 technology ...
15:24	bzr-builddeb ;)
15:24	<vagrantc> actually, i think ltspfs could be 0.5.0 right now.
15:24	<ogra_cmpc> DOIT !
15:24	<warren> ogra_cmpc, eat your pizza!
15:24	<vagrantc> unless we wanted to add the cdpinger from udev to it
15:24	<ogra_cmpc> heh
15:24	<vagrantc> and we should consider syncing the udev rules from debian into upstream
15:25	<warren> vagrantc, ltspfs isn't working here, not sure what's wrong.
15:25	after I get the reposed converted and tagged I'll look more into ltspfs
15:25	wow, brain and hands aren't connected
15:25	TelnetManta has quit IRC
15:26	abadger1999 has joined #ltsp
15:26	<vagrantc> would it make sense for me to go through and retroactively tag the debian versions ?
15:26	for ltsp i can do it till early 2007 ...
15:26	<warren> vagrantc, well, does it gain you anything?
15:26	<vagrantc> warren: historical relevence
15:26	<warren> vagrantc, I don't plan on retroactively tagging fedora
15:27	vagrantc, I guess I don't object
15:27	vagrantc, see what ogra thinks
15:27	<vagrantc> despite my vagrant tendencies, i have some pack-rat like tendencies
15:27	gentgeen__ has quit IRC
15:28	<warren> part of me prefers to have tags only from now forward
15:28	but if it really helps you then I wont object
15:28	<vagrantc> it's more of a desire than any sort of pragmatic help
15:28	cliebow has quit IRC
15:29	<warren> wow, temperature is 60F here
15:30	<vagrantc> i've been doing pseudo-tagging by pushing branches to: http://bzr.debian.org/bzr/pkg-ltsp/releases/
15:31	<warren> that's kind of what ogra is asking for
15:31	<ogra_cmpc> not really
15:31	<warren> ogra_cmpc, what were you asking for then?
15:31	<vagrantc> but it's kind of klunky and easier to overwrite
15:31	<warren> ogra_cmpc, are you eating pizza?
15:31	<ogra_cmpc> thats way to much :)
15:31	salad still
15:31	<warren> =)
15:32	<ogra_cmpc> i dont want a branch for every debian revision ... only the major version number branches
15:32	<vagrantc> history all the way back to 2006-08-17 ...
15:33	<ogra_cmpc> i.e. in that case 0.93, 0.99, 5.0.8 ... 5.0.40
15:33	<vagrantc> ogra_cmpc: ok, i'll put the old tags in a branch that i don't push upstream for myself
15:34	ogra_cmpc: there's no real difference between ubuntu version numbers and debian version numbers.
15:34	ogra_cmpc: they're not any more "real"
15:34	<ogra_cmpc> vagrantc, i dont mid you taging backwards if you dont have anything better to waste your time with ;)
15:34	i meant that i would like the stable branching that way
15:35	<vagrantc> sometimes obsession dictates action
15:35	<warren> but what is stable?
15:35	<ogra_cmpc> not every minor change should have a branch
15:35	Pascal_1 has quit IRC
15:35	<ogra_cmpc> like once a year or so
15:35	<warren> ogra_cmpc, if you call it instead "branch whenver a distro wants to work from there" then I agree.
15:35	<ogra_cmpc> no
15:35	<vagrantc> but ... that's the whole point of the versioning proposal
15:35	<ogra_cmpc> i mean actually a snapshot of the trunk branch
15:35	<vagrantc> well, tagging
15:36	<warren> ogra_cmpc, the snapshot can be from any point off trunk
15:36	chupa has quit IRC
15:36	<mnemoc> and releasing tarballs of those tags?
15:36	<vagrantc> including a tag
15:36	<ogra_cmpc> warren, right
15:36	<warren> then we're in agreement
15:36	<ogra_cmpc> but we set that point
15:37	once we agree we consider it worthwile
15:37	<warren> ogra_cmpc, in practice I doubt any of us will be working from the same branch
15:37	<ogra_cmpc> i dont say do it today or next month
15:37	<warren> at least for a while
15:37	chupa has joined #ltsp
15:37	<ogra_cmpc> but on a slightly predictable schedule so people can work on something thats not a moving target if they prefer
15:37	<warren> right
15:38	I think we'll get there eventually
15:38	<ogra_cmpc> right
15:38	<warren> ogra_cmpc, given that our schedules are similar, I think we can aim for a common stable between ubuntu and fedora in the next cycle.
15:38	<ogra_cmpc> yeah
15:38	<vagrantc> debian's not even that far off, when you consider freeze dates
15:38	<ogra_cmpc> and given that vagrant might have a realaes around new year that would make three :)
15:39	<warren> ok fine
15:39	<ogra_cmpc> ok, now really pizza /// else it gets cold
15:39	<warren> let's aim to call that 5.2.0?
15:39	<ogra_cmpc> ++
15:39	<warren> ok
15:41	<vagrantc> feels like i missed out on 5.1 already. :)
15:41	i guess my next upload will be 5.1.x
15:42	mhterres has quit IRC
15:42	brun2 has left #ltsp
15:42	mhterres has joined #ltsp
15:43	<warren> gasp
15:44	now we can finally have upstream bug reports
15:44	"0.5.0 has broken foo"
15:44	<vagrantc> oh boy.
15:45	mhterres has quit IRC
15:45	<warren> sigh
15:45	bzr wont let you push if the only change is a tag.
15:45	mhterres has joined #ltsp
15:46	<warren> kushal, if you want to help, please help me get more stuff into the documentation
15:46	kushal, including an example of defining a permanent ifcfg-ethX file that add itself to the ltspbr0 bridge. You'll find examples of that on google somewhere.
15:46	<vagrantc> warren: i think you can force it
15:47	though i can't really see how, looking at it
15:47	<warren> I thought so too, but #bzr says it is a bug that you can't.
15:48	vagrantc, I can enable the bzr log to changelog in release.conf since ltspfs started from scratch.
15:49	<vagrantc> warren: works for me.
15:49	<warren> vagrantc, that way I can push a change, allowing me to tag =)
15:49	<vagrantc> warren: you just tagging ltspfs ?
15:49	<warren> vagrantc, yes and adding EXPORTCHANGELOG=yes
15:49	and removing the empty changelog file
15:50	plamengr has quit IRC
15:50	plamengr has joined #ltsp
15:51	<vagrantc> hmmm... probably should wait to get the cdpinger from udev before uploading a new version
15:52	otherwise it will get buildd priority over ldm ...
15:52	<warren> I'll help you test cdpinger from udev
15:52	since I'm starting from broken anyway
15:52	<vagrantc> great.
15:52	<warren> can't be worse right?
15:52	<vagrantc> heh.
15:52	<warren> WHAT?!
15:52	grr
15:52	<vagrantc> warren: the probably implies i help you to get it working
15:52	:)
15:52	<warren> it pushed the tag upstream without telling me it did
15:53	I wonder if there's a way to remove the tag from upstream
15:53	or are they permanent
15:54	<vagrantc> warren: bzr tag --delete tagname
15:54	Grejao has quit IRC
15:54	<warren> vagrantc, wont let you remove it from the already pushed tree on launchpad
15:54	I think
15:54	<vagrantc> oh well... look, it's 0.5.0! :)
15:54	<warren> horray!
15:54	we'll add this change to 0.5.1
15:54	but no need to tag that now
15:55	chupa has quit IRC
15:55	<vagrantc> oh, tags. the awesome.
15:56	warren: i wonder if you use --force to change the tag ...
15:56	chupa has joined #ltsp
15:56	<warren> permanent upstream tags are kind of a good thing
15:56	<vagrantc> true, true.
15:56	<warren> you don't want people to be able to delete a tag from 2 years ago and claim it never existed =)
15:56	* ogra_cmpc is curious how many branches we will have tomorrow
15:57	* vagrantc thinks this will result in less branches
15:57	<ogra_cmpc> trashing branches and moving them away surely not :)
15:58	<vagrantc> well, instead of having branches lying around, you can actually have tags ...
15:58	<warren> vagrantc, how did you move that branch to a different name?
15:58	<ogra_cmpc> change details
15:58	<vagrantc> warren: through the web interface
15:58	<warren> vagrantc, where exactly?
15:58	vagrantc, https://code.launchpad.net/~ltsp-upstream/ltsp/ldm-trunk/+edit change the Name field?
15:59	<vagrantc> warren: yup.
15:59	<ogra_cmpc> we should probably set the branches to development btw
16:00	they are all "New" atm
16:00	<vagrantc> ltspfs probably almost counts as mature.
16:00	<ogra_cmpc> yeah
16:01	mhterres has quit IRC
16:02	<warren> pushing ldm-trunk
16:03	or at least trying to... I don't see any activity
16:03	hmm, and there's no network connection
16:04	vagrantc, did you have to create a new tree in launchpad before pushing the converted ltspfs-trunk?
16:04	<ogra_cmpc> oh
16:04	https://launchpad.net/ltspfs/
16:05	i wasnt aware we even registered it as product
16:07	<warren> ok, created ldm-trunk in the web interface
16:07	bzr push still isn't doing anything
16:07	just sitting there
16:08	* warren wants pizza
16:08	r3zon8 has joined #ltsp
16:08	<r3zon8> on ltsp5 rhel5..im stuck at client grabs ip from dhcp then "TFT...."
16:09	TFTP...
16:09	<ogra_cmpc> what protocol do you use for pushing ?
16:09	bzr+ssh:// should be lots faster than sftp
16:15	chupa has quit IRC
16:16	chupa has joined #ltsp
16:17	otavio has quit IRC
16:19	<vagrantc> warren: i just pushed the branch originally ...
16:19	warren: i didn't do anything in launchpad
16:19	<ogra_cmpc> right, why would you
16:20	<vagrantc> well, i don't see any rhyme or reason to launchpad
16:20	<ogra_cmpc> i do
16:20	<vagrantc> you work with it a lot more
16:20	<ogra_cmpc> not lately
16:21	ltsp is actually the thing i use it for mostly beyond that i track my bugs
16:22	my work ties me more inside the datacenter and to my local image buildds atm
16:23	<vagrantc> ogra_cmpc: the entirety of my experiencing is pushing branches to bzr, the little bit of spec work in sevilla, and once in a great while painfully searching for a bug
16:23	<ogra_cmpc> i'll do a deeper intro into functionallity after release, we dont really amke use of the features
16:23	which is mainly my fault i think
16:24	<vagrantc> warren: seems to be working
16:28	* ogra_cmpc wonders who Lossie is
16:29	<ogra_cmpc> listed under top contributors for ltsp
16:29	https://launchpad.net/ltsp/
16:29	<dberkholz> wb ogra_cmpc
16:29	<ogra_cmpc> hey dberkholz
16:30	<dberkholz> hmm, it's really weird how i can't access any ubuntu-related sites from work
16:30	<r3zon8> alright, well now im at tftp file not found..? i set the right path in dhcpd.conf
16:30	<dberkholz> i can get anywhere but ubuntu and savannah
16:30	<ogra_cmpc> weird
16:30	routing prob ?
16:30	<dberkholz> probably, there's so many levels of routing between me and the outside world
16:31	* ogra_cmpc gets to all pages from germany
16:31	<dberkholz> maybe i need to start socks proxying through home
16:32	<ogra_cmpc> i heard there was a breakage in a trans atlantic line last week
16:33	chupa has quit IRC
16:34	chupa has joined #ltsp
16:34	<dberkholz> it's not new, been like this for months at least
16:34	<ogra_cmpc> https://www.tat-14.com/tat14/index.jsp
16:35	milesd has joined #ltsp
16:35	<ogra_cmpc> according to the heise news service thats relatively new
16:37	ETA for the fix is a week ... the message is from 23rd
16:37	do you get to other UK sites ?
16:37	like bbc.co.uk ?
16:39	<dberkholz> sure
16:39	<ogra_cmpc> strange
16:39	<vagrantc> warren: you working on ltsp-trunk too ?
16:42	deavid has quit IRC
16:46	vagrantc has quit IRC
16:52	chupa has quit IRC
16:52	chupa has joined #ltsp
17:04	jammcq has quit IRC
17:06	<r3zon8> i used the debian tarball for ltsp5 to install on RHEL5, and ive got everything working fine now..its just that the login screen shows Debian logos/etc...and i rather it show RH logos..any ideas?
17:13	chupa has quit IRC
17:14	chupa has joined #ltsp
17:19	plamengr has quit IRC
17:20	vagrantc has joined #ltsp
17:23	K_O-Gnom has quit IRC
17:29	<warren> vagrantc, sorry fell asleep
17:29	vagrantc, having a little health trouble
17:43	chup has joined #ltsp
17:43	chupa has quit IRC
17:49	<vagrantc> warren: no worries
17:49	warren: i wish you good health and all that :)
17:50	<ogra_cmpc> yeah, that doesnt sound good ... warren, get well
17:50	Egyptian[Home1 has joined #ltsp
17:51	<warren> chronic problem
17:51	from nerve damage
17:51	<ogra_cmpc> still your back
17:51	?
17:51	<warren> yeah, don't hurt your back
17:51	<ogra_cmpc> i did
17:51	<warren> it never gets better fully
17:51	well in my case it broke...
17:51	* ogra_cmpc worked with handicapped people for 10 years
17:52	<ogra_cmpc> lifting them a lot all the time until my back didnt manage anymore and i had to change jobs
17:52	<warren> wow
17:52	<ogra_cmpc> it recovered a lot since i changed but it will never be gone completely
17:53	surely not as bad as yours, but i have my bad days where i work from bed
17:55	<warren> I used to do that, but I found that I am better if I just work through the pain and exercise.
17:55	the pain never goes away completely
17:55	and sometimes it gets so bad for days in a row that I can't do anything
17:55	sitting seems to do the most damage, i'm fine if I am constantly moving
17:55	maybe I should work with handicapped people and lift them...
17:56	moving ltsp-trunk now
17:57	<ogra_cmpc> it teaches you to move your body the right way but still does damage
17:57	<warren> pushing. this will take a while.
18:02	bobby_C has quit IRC
18:02	chup has quit IRC
18:03	chup has joined #ltsp
18:07	Egyptian[Home] has quit IRC
18:22	J45p3r has joined #ltsp
18:33	chup has quit IRC
18:34	chup has joined #ltsp
18:49	vagrantc has quit IRC
18:53	chupa has joined #ltsp
18:54	chup has quit IRC
19:04	staffencasa has quit IRC
19:15	jammcq has joined #ltsp
19:16	<jammcq> hellooooooo
19:20	<warren> ooooo
19:20	jammcq, we have real version numbers now
19:20	jammcq, they are not releases though!
19:24	<ogra_cmpc> heh
19:24	<jammcq> yeah, I saw the email.
19:24	waaay cool stuff
19:25	vagrantc has joined #ltsp
19:25	<ogra_cmpc> "this code released under version 5.1.7 is not a release"
19:25	:)
19:25	<vagrantc> it's not a release, just a version number!
19:26	i don't think we shouldn't call them releases. i think they should be called "development releases" and "official releases"
19:27	development releases being done by the distro, official releases being done by general distro consensus
19:27	it's just silly to pretend they're not releases.
19:28	milesd has quit IRC
19:30	<ogra_cmpc> well, so you say we never released any ltsp5 yet ?
19:30	* ogra_cmpc would call his releases official ones
19:32	<ogra_cmpc> i would call releases inside a distro as official as upstream releases
19:32	<vagrantc> well, whatever we decide to call them, they are all releases as far as i'm concerned. if we could come up with some simple, understandable terminology to distinguish between distro releases and upstream releases ...
19:33	like maybe distro releases and upstream releases.
19:33	for example.
19:33	<ogra_cmpc> we should probably call distro specific releases subrelease or so
19:33	yeah, or that
19:33	i just dont like them to be tagged development or anything else that suggests an unstable status
19:34	<vagrantc> or "wild west releases" and "authoritarian beurocrat releases".
19:34	<ogra_cmpc> they are likely more stable than what we'll release as upstream :)
19:34	<vagrantc> stable for the purpose they were released, anyways
19:34	which is kind of the only thing that makes sense
19:35	<ogra_cmpc> well, i mean they recieve their testing during the distro release cycle and see various freezes etc ...
19:35	our upstream code wont see that amount of QA ever i think
19:35	<vagrantc> i guess we've got two different goals with releases ... the distro releases are there to actively encourage direct contribution rather than forking ... upstream releases make it easier for new distros to get involved.
19:36	<ogra_cmpc> yeah
19:39	chup has joined #ltsp
19:39	<ogra_cmpc> so a wwr would be an upstrwem relase while an abr is a distro release ?
19:40	chupa has quit IRC
19:40	<ogra_cmpc> ltsp 5.2.0wwr1 ... g ... thats cool, i love secret codes
19:41	<vagrantc> wwr? abr? eeyk.
19:41	<ogra_cmpc> hehe
19:41	* vagrantc thinks of world war
19:41	<ogra_cmpc> you brought that up
19:42	<vagrantc> yes,but i didn't propose to codify it in the version numbers
19:42	<ogra_cmpc> heh
19:42	<vagrantc> i think the simplest thing to do is take a version that hasn't seen many commits, is basically useable by N number of distros, and say "that's upstream version X.Y.Z"
19:43	<ogra_cmpc> yeah, indeed
19:43	<dberkholz> we could number releases differently
19:43	<ogra_cmpc> i wasnt serious
19:43	dberkholz, good ole odd even rule ?
19:43	<dberkholz> distro releases would be x.x.x_pFOO, where FOO is what distros change
19:44	<ogra_cmpc> thats automatic in ubuntu packaging anyway unless i blindly sync from debian
19:44	<vagrantc> i'd rather just have it be almost more of a publicity thing ... i.e. when one of the distro releases seems good enough, publicize it as official.
19:44	<ogra_cmpc> x.x.x-0ubuntuX is the rule we have for versioning
19:44	<vagrantc> er, upstream
19:44	<dberkholz> although i'm kinda guessing that any non-distro releases would be likely to be a minor bump anyhow (5.2, e.g.
19:44	<ogra_cmpc> right
19:44	dont block on upstream
19:45	<dberkholz> so we could just reserve the third number for distros
19:45	<ogra_cmpc> the real upstream releases will be really rare
19:45	since all distros have to hold back during stabilization ...
19:46	i'd say in max it should be two a year
19:46	rather one though
19:46	<dberkholz> i don't really think we need a "should"
19:46	whenever enough people can agree, do it
19:46	<vagrantc> we should only release on certain phases of the moon.
19:46	* vagrantc concurs with dberkholz
19:47	<ogra_cmpc> well, indeed its based on agreement but there is always this time where you think ... ooh we ddint do a release for a year, lets probably ask around if we shouldnt
19:48	<dberkholz> i'm not sure i understood the last half of that
19:48	<ogra_cmpc> it will help to not diverge to much so i think its important that we do it form time to time
19:48	<dberkholz> are you suggesting a minimum number of releases or a maximum?
19:48	<ogra_cmpc> a number
19:49	no minimum or maximum
19:50	* vagrantc suggests just taking our intuition ...
19:50	<ogra_cmpc> i'm just seeking for agreement that we do it regulary so that we all sit down once in a while and look at each others code as well as stabilizing upstream for such releases
19:50	<vagrantc> maybe with a goal of 1 upstream release every year ?
19:50	<ogra_cmpc> something like that
19:51	<vagrantc> i guess i intend to mostly not actually branch from upstream ... the only time i would do that would be during a freeze, which hopeffully would be only 2-3 months.
19:51	<ogra_cmpc> i dont want forced numbers but a rule of thumb
20:00	vagrantc, do you currently install a dhcpd.conf ? or do you just ship an example ?
20:02	https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ltsp/+bug/203954 ... i was wondering if you would have any benefit from the fix
20:15	<laga> ogra_cmpc: thanks, i benefit from that :)
20:17	<ogra_cmpc> well, im not yet sure i like it
20:17	because most people will want x86 clients
20:17	currently that means only building an i386 chroot ...
20:17	then it will mean to additionaly change the config
20:18	<laga> yeah, but you cant build a i386 chroot from the amd64 disk..
20:18	in d-i, that is.
20:18	(for me it makes more sense to have amd64 clients, but i agree that it wont work too well for people who still use p-3s ;))
20:19	<ogra_cmpc> right, but the fix would apply to all amd64 installs
20:19	<laga> ah, now i get it
20:19	right.
20:20	it should i 'fixed' in d-i because d-i will create an amd64 chroot.. for manual invocations fo l-b-c i dont know
20:20	maybe l-u-k can take care of it?
20:20	<ogra_cmpc> then it cant be a conffile
20:20	<laga> where? in d-i?
20:20	<ogra_cmpc> if d-i modifies it
20:21	or any other script
20:21	<laga> config files are not supposed to be modified?
20:21	<ogra_cmpc> conffiles carry their md5 sum with them ...
20:22	if they changed between two versions you get a conffile prompt from dpkg
20:22	<laga> can't you update the md5sum?
20:22	<ogra_cmpc> (which breaks ubuntu policy and is annoying in update-manager on dist upgrades)
20:22	nope
20:22	<laga> oh, that's ubuntu policy.
20:23	yeah, it breaks adept here.
20:23	which is _really_ silly IMHO
20:23	chupa has joined #ltsp
20:23	<ogra_cmpc> well, its dpkg/debian conffile policy in general and the specific ubuntu aim to avoid all possible questions in packaging tools
20:24	georgy_28 has joined #ltsp
20:24	<laga> yes, trying to avoid them is OK, but breaking if they happen is not OK. </OT>
20:24	<ogra_cmpc> right
20:24	u-m handkles them through the debconf gtk frontend
20:25	chup has quit IRC
20:25	makghosh has quit IRC
20:25	<laga> ogra_cmpc: you can try not installing ltsp-server-standalone, but install ltsp-server and the dhcpd and then create the config file manually?
20:25	<ogra_cmpc> there is no QT debconf frontend adept could call ...
20:25	<laga> ah, too bad.
20:26	<ogra_cmpc> i dont get why kubuntu omits gtk here though ... gtk itself is tiny and doesn no harm
20:26	georgy_28 has quit IRC
20:26	<laga> there's gtk all over the place already i think.. although that might stem from installing kubuntu-desktop on a existing ubuntu-desktop.
20:26	<ogra_cmpc> and it would he.lp filling the gaps between ubuntu/kubuntu development
20:27	<laga> ogra_cmpc: so, if i modify a config file and a package update comes in which still has the same version of that config file i modified, will i be asked?
20:27	<ogra_cmpc> often ubuntu features take a release to be ported to kubuntu ... during that time stuff is simply missing
20:27	<laga> 'cause i dont think so ;)
20:28	<ogra_cmpc> if the md5 sum in the package is identical with the one for the installed version you dont get a prompt
20:29	<laga> so the problem could be solved be telling dpkg about the new md5sum
20:30	<ogra_cmpc> then the conffile would be pointless
20:30	makghosh has joined #ltsp
20:31	<laga> ah, right. it would be overwritten on update
20:31	duh
20:31	<ogra_cmpc> well, if you would have to use such a workaround then you just shouldnt make it a conffile
20:32	<laga> what other possibilities are there?
20:32	<ogra_cmpc> the reason of a conffile is actually to ask the user if he wants to keep his changes and to avoid overwriting it blindly
20:32	<laga> just generate it?
20:32	<ogra_cmpc> make it a normal file
20:32	install it from postinst
20:32	generate it from postinst
20:33	ship it as example (thats what vagrant does in debian i think)
20:33	<laga> yeah, that sounds sensible
20:33	<ogra_cmpc> there are plent of possibilities
20:33	plenty
20:33	but we want dhcpd.conf to be a conffile so we dont break users setups
20:34	<laga> i'm currently working on the dhcpd configuration for mythbuntu, so i'm facing the same problem
20:35	<ogra_cmpc> why do you need a differnt one than the one ltsp ships already ?
20:35	<laga> shipping it as an example is most sane approach because it places the responsibility on the user, but that's not the ubuntu way of doing stuff
20:36	ogra_cmpc: i'm auto-configuring it for their network
20:36	<ogra_cmpc> ugh
20:36	rather dont touch it
20:36	<laga> basically, sed -e s/192.168.0/<new network>/g
20:36	<ogra_cmpc> reconfigure the device ;)
20:36	thats way less changes
20:36	<laga> ogra_cmpc: i just want to increase the likelyhood of it working out of the box ;)
20:36	<ogra_cmpc> we do the same thing in the udeb
20:37	<laga> ogra_cmpc: yes, and much more havoc
20:37	<ogra_cmpc> nah
20:37	steph_ has joined #ltsp
20:37	<steph_> Hi everybody.
20:37	<laga> ogra_cmpc: if i reconfigure the device, mythtv will break. i'd love to just use your udeb, but i can't. the clients can't be on their own network, they need to talk to other boxes and to the internet
20:38	<ogra_cmpc> you know which networks the machine knows ... you knowe its default route ... etc etc you can detect everything you need and assign a free network
20:38	set up forwarding :)
20:38	<laga> i can't assign free networks. mythtv will only operate on one network unless you add routes.
20:38	or forwarding
20:38	<steph_> There is something I don't understand. When I install a packages on the client with chroot, it doesn't appear ont the client's menu. What am I doing wrong?
20:38	<laga> trust me, one simple call to sed is much simpler :)
20:39	<ogra_cmpc> steph_, the client only runs the kernel, X and ldm the ltsp login manager ... everything you see after logging in happens actually on the server
20:40	the chroot is only to enable the hardware to talk to the server session
20:40	laga, yes but you can brak a l;ot more in the users setup
20:40	*break
20:40	<laga> ogra_cmpc: for example?
20:40	<ogra_cmpc> cusomized dhcpd conf
20:41	<steph_> laga: I'm on the channel since few minutes...Can you resume what you are trying to do?
20:42	<ogra_cmpc> a user already serves his whole network from that file and has a single myth client for presentation among 100 other office desktops ....
20:43	and now you sed through it ...
20:43	<laga> ogra_cmpc: well, for the alternate disks that's not a problem. as for breaking existing files.. this isn't done in the maintainer scripts, it's done by mythbuntu-control-centre only if you install mythbuntu-diskless-server-standalone (i need shorter package names) through MCC
20:43	<steph_> ogra_cmpc: i f I understand, all appz are running on the server, but the client's hardware bind to chroot who connect to server session. Am I right?
20:43	<ogra_cmpc> that will not only force a conffile prompt on hios next ltsp package update but probably even break his setup
20:44	<laga> steph_: i'm not trying to do anything, i'm merely discussing technical stuff with ogra ;)
20:44	<ogra_cmpc> steph_, the chroot is actually a mini linux, only used to get the display and the rest of the hw up ... after login everything comes from the server
20:45	<laga> ogra_cmpc: you've got a point.
20:46	ogra_cmpc: i'll stop shipping /etc/ltsp/dhcpd.conf and just use mythbuntu-control-centre to copy from examples/, sed and then try hard not to touch it anymore.
20:46	that should be a bit more sane.
20:46	<ogra_cmpc> are you sure users wont run install ltsp-server-standalone alongside ?
20:47	i would want to :)
20:47	<laga> heh. i even used to depend on that, but not anymore..
20:47	<ogra_cmpc> since i run in max two clients for multimedia
20:47	and a lot others for other stuff
20:48	and in this case you would copy over a file thats shipped by ltsp-server-standalone
20:48	which as you might guess ... will trigger a conffile prompt with the next security update
20:49	captain_magnus has quit IRC
20:49	<laga> ogra_cmpc: okay.. do as described above, but dont touch anything if /etc/ltsp/dhcpd.conf exists
20:49	<ogra_cmpc> conffiles are icky but save the user from developers that break their configs :)
20:50	captain_magnus has joined #ltsp
20:50	<ogra_cmpc> in that case /etc/ltsp/dhcpd.conf would blindly be overwritten of you install ltsp-server-standalone
20:50	dpkg doesnt know anything about it if you copy it from a postinst
20:51	so it wont prevent anything
20:51	<laga> so, wait a second. i'm blamed if i overwrite /etc/ltsp/dhcpd.conf and i'm blamed if someone else overwrites it?
20:51	<ogra_cmpc> right
20:52	as long as you work past dpkg you are the bad guy anyway
20:53	(which is what a postinst usually does)
20:53	<laga> time for some experiments
20:53	<vagrantc> ogra_cmpc: we ship /etc/ltsp/dhcpd.conf in ltsp-server-standalone, but it's not actually used by dhcpd without manual configuration.
20:53	<laga> ogra_cmpc: i'm not even talking about a postinst.. postinst is for automatic things, mcc is for automagic things
20:53	<vagrantc> ogra_cmpc: i typically recommend adding a single include line to /etc/dhcp3/dhcpd.conf
20:53	<ogra_cmpc> vagrantc, any thoughts on that fix ?
20:53	* vagrantc scrolls back
20:54	<ogra_cmpc> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ltsp/+bug/203954
20:54	laga, the sanest option is to change the NIC :)
20:55	<vagrantc> hmmmm...
20:55	<ogra_cmpc> not sure what arch any would mean for debian though
20:55	<vagrantc> well, if default on amd64 is to install i386, i think that's the wrong proposal.
20:55	<ogra_cmpc> i only have two arches to support
20:56	it isnt for the cd
20:56	<vagrantc> on debian, we default to whatever architecture they install, so it would make sense.
20:56	<ogra_cmpc> since i dont have i386 packages on it
20:56	<laga> ogra_cmpc: you were slightly wrong.. when i create /etc/ltsp/dhcpd.conf manually/in MCC and then install ltsp-server-standalone, LTSP will ask.
20:56	err.
20:56	dpkg will ask
20:57	<ogra_cmpc> oh cool
20:57	* ogra_cmpc finds it great to be prven wrong on that one
20:57	<laga> heh
20:57	<ogra_cmpc> got you still generate a question
20:57	<laga> so i think what i proposed above will work for my setup..
20:58	ogra_cmpc: sure.
20:58	ogra_cmpc: the user choose to edit the config
20:58	so he gets a question
20:58	<ogra_cmpc> no he didnt
20:58	<laga> no packaging scripts were involved in making that decision ;)
20:58	ogra_cmpc: implicitly ;)
20:58	<ogra_cmpc> the user just installed a package
20:58	<laga> ogra_cmpc: through MCC. anything will not touch /etc/ltsp/dhcpd.conf.
20:59	anything else.
20:59	<ogra_cmpc> ah
20:59	<laga> i got that much - i'm not allowed to cheat on dpkg ;)
20:59	* ogra_cmpc still finds that pretty complicated
21:00	<ogra_cmpc> setting upthe NIC and adding a two liner initscript to get forwarding seems cleaner to me ..
21:00	but your package, your call :)
21:00	<laga> ogra_cmpc: many people wont have a second NIC, though
21:00	<ogra_cmpc> its a server after all
21:01	<laga> it's some beat-up piece of.. hardware humming away in a basement somewhere with a bunch of capture cards.. don't expect too much ;)
21:01	<ogra_cmpc> they will have raid 5 SCSI terabyte arrays to server their video collection but not the 15 bucks for a second NIC ... heh
21:01	<laga> heh
21:01	no, a completely different problem..
21:01	PCI slots are precious
21:02	i used to have four capture cards..
21:02	and i really didn't want to put more strain on the PCI bus ;)
21:03	<ogra_cmpc> my dvb-s card is slowly starting to oxide i guess ...
21:04	<laga> sudo aptitude install mythtv-backend.. you know you want it.
21:04	<ogra_cmpc> i actually managed to unpack the box since i bought it half a year ago
21:05	i need a new dish first
21:06	<laga> i've been thinking about going dvb-s.. but i don't want to throw away my hardware
21:07	<ogra_cmpc> what do you have there ? cable ?
21:07	<laga> yes, dvb-c and analog.. well, i'd have analog but i lost the channel table.. so i'm "stuck" with two dvb-c cards now
21:09	* ogra_cmpc somehow never got the concept of paying for recieving tv signals...
21:09	<laga> why? because of cable?
21:09	<ogra_cmpc> until i started working for a cable provider for three years and it paid my rent :)
21:09	<laga> ah, heh.
21:09	<ogra_cmpc> yeah
21:09	its a silly concept
21:10	spectra has quit IRC
21:10	<laga> i'm not complaining about cable too much.. 26Mbit/s is nice to have
21:10	<ogra_cmpc> (which is why i resigned, i simply couldnt identify with it)
21:11	kabelBW, ish, ieasy ? which one is that ?
21:11	<laga> kabel deutschland
21:11	<ogra_cmpc> ah
21:11	<laga> but i think they all offer similar packages
21:11	i think you can et it w/o the tv part, though
21:11	<ogra_cmpc> but different backbones ;0
21:11	<laga> ogra_cmpc: heh :)
21:11	i often get over 2MB/s when downloading, so i wont complain.
21:12	<ogra_cmpc> ish built up a network that can cover 2-4 million customers
21:12	they have probably 500 000 :)
21:13	they upgraded the whole network in one go based on marketing numbers :) very funny
21:14	kushal has quit IRC
21:15	<laga> at least it's future-proof :)
21:15	<ogra_cmpc> especially since these numbers were totally insane ...
21:15	they wont have the amount of customers they need in the next ten years ...
21:16	<laga> yummy, bandwidth
21:16	<ogra_cmpc> be sure they need to do a full network upgrade before they even use 50%
21:16	<laga> oh
21:16	<ogra_cmpc> because the technology will be ancient by then
21:16	<laga> i thought they also had the backbone to handle that ;)
21:17	<ogra_cmpc> backbone yes ...
21:17	but you need access concentrators where the modems connect to ... modems themselves ... the last mile to the house needs to handle it etc
21:18	todays cable modems dont support gigabit over cable yet ...
21:19	(neither does todays cable technology ... but it will at some point)
21:19	J45p3r has quit IRC
21:19	<laga> true
21:20	<ogra_cmpc> it was just an awful waste of money ...
21:20	but indeed its good to be ish ISP customer ;)
21:21	chupa has quit IRC
21:21	<laga> heh
21:21	chupa has joined #ltsp
21:29	* laga ponders adding "this error message was sponsored by ogra_cmpc" to some new dialog boxes in mythbuntu-control-centre ;)
21:33	<ogra_cmpc> heh
21:43	<vagrantc> it might possibly make more sense to maintain /etc/ltsp/dhcpd.conf as a non-conffile configuration file so that it can be edited ...
21:44	<ogra_cmpc> but then you trash user configs on upgrades
21:44	<vagrantc> and just keep an md5sum of the last edit to make sure it hasn't been changed...
21:44	<ogra_cmpc> that can get very icky ... remember how xorg.conf was handled in xfree86
21:45	<vagrantc> sure.
21:45	<jammcq> ogra_cmpc: isn't it past your bedtime already?
21:45	* jammcq is even tired
21:45	<ogra_cmpc> its near get up time already :)
21:45	<jammcq> I'm wondering if it's 15:00 at scotties house yet
21:45	<ogra_cmpc> i had 4h of sleep last night, early 7am meeting and stayed up somehow
21:45	<vagrantc> heh
21:59	steph_ has quit IRC
21:59	chupa has quit IRC
22:00	chupa has joined #ltsp
22:11	praveer_cool has joined #ltsp
22:39	chupa has quit IRC
22:40	chupa has joined #ltsp
22:51	mccann has quit IRC
23:02	chupa has quit IRC
23:02	chupa has joined #ltsp
23:07	vagrantc has quit IRC
23:11	makghosh has quit IRC
23:36	chup has joined #ltsp
23:38	chupa has quit IRC
23:58	subir has joined #ltsp