IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.libera.chat (webchat)
Channel log from 18 March 2020 (all times are UTC)
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| 04:47 | <map7> Just testing IMAGE_TO_RAM=1 on my debian 11 + LTSP 20.1 and when I add that feature (and run ltsp initrd) I cannot login to my fat-clients
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| 04:47 | When I take the option out again, it's back to normal
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| 04:47 | my fat-clients have 8GB or RAM and my img is 2.9GB
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| 05:19 | <alkisg> map7: that option was implemented/tested by kvaps, who isn't here currently, so maybe you could ask that in the github pull request where the implemenation was
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| 05:20 | <map7> alkisg: cool, I thought I better ask here before doing that.
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| 05:21 | <alkisg> Sure, you did the correct thing, I just have many things atm and I haven't tested that at all, it's a special case... :)
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| 05:21 | !sync
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| 05:21 | <ltspbot> I do not know about 'sync', but I do know about these similar topics: 's', 'sis', 'sound', 'specs', 'sshd', 'suse'
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| 05:23 | <map7> alkisg: Is this the pull request you want me to comment on? https://github.com/ltsp/ltsp/pull/86
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| 05:24 | <alkisg> Yes, sounds fine
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| 05:24 | <map7> cool thanks
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| 05:24 | <alkisg> map7, just out of curiosity, in which case is IMAGE_TO_RAM needed, when server access is required anyway for /home?
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| 05:25 | <map7> alkisg: It's not needed, but I wanted to improve the speed on access of applications and was testing out this solution
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| 05:25 | on first load of libreoffice it's taking 15seconds
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| 05:25 | second loading takes 3seconds
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| 05:26 | <alkisg> You can dd if=image of=/dev/null at boot, and cache all of it
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| 05:26 | and have the same effect as image_to_ram, with the additional benefit that if you ever need that ram, it'll be freed
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| 05:26 | <map7> Do I put that in a POST_ option in ltsp.conf?
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| 05:27 | <alkisg> I think PRE_INITRD_BOTTOM_x would be the easiest one, although POST_INIT_x=dd & with the & to background it would be the best, but it'll be difficult to locate the device then
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| 05:31 | ogra, highvoltage, hi, I want to sync ltsp from debian to ubuntu but I forgot where I kept notes about this, could you tell me the base command to do it, so that I grep through my notes?
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| 05:32 | * alkisg checks dpkg -L ubuntu-dev-tools | |
| 05:32 | <alkisg> Yey, syncpackage
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| 05:34 | !learn syncpackage as to sync ltsp from unstable to the current Ubuntu development series: syncpackage -d sid ltsp
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| 05:34 | <ltspbot> The operation succeeded.
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| 13:51 | <markit> hi alkisg, I've done a simple test comparison, and now client boots + responsive GUI interface in -20 less, goood job (20.04 "old" config 1'40", now 1'20")
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| 13:52 | just wondering why server VM is able to boot + responsive GUI in 30" and if there is further space to improve. I.e. systemd-analyze blame seems to have a lot of useful info, but maybe I'm wrong (like "11.747s man-db.service")
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| 13:53 | <MWALTERS> netbooting client on a VM hosted by same physical box as the server?
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| 13:54 | <markit> also there is a lot of time with black screen that I wonder what the client is doing/waiting in the meantime
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| 13:54 | <alkisg> Back, reading...
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| 13:54 | markit: do you have access now to such a client/setup?
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| 13:54 | For vnc?
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| 13:54 | <markit> I'm very far from your timings in any case, but I've a different configuration
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| 13:54 | I'm running as "test lab" in my Proxmox VM server
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| 13:55 | <alkisg> 1.20 is a lot, mine are a lot less than 1 min
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| 13:55 | OK, can you vnc to me from there?
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| 13:55 | !vnc-edide
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| 13:55 | <ltspbot> vnc-edide: To share your screen with me, open Epoptes → Help menu → Remote support → Host: srv1-dide.ioa.sch.gr, and click the Connect button
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| 13:55 | <markit> yep, but I'm lazy and I've just boot and take time "visually", if you want I have a 6MB video of the client booting
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| 13:56 | sure, let me run again the server
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| 13:56 | <alkisg> For example man-db shouldn't have run at all
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| 13:56 | It's supposed to be blacklisted in: ltsp/client/init/56-mask-services.sh:man-db.timer # Daily man-db regeneration
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| 13:57 | <markit> also I was building the image and had this message: File /tmp/tmp.2AbkoAV1mI/root/var/cache/apt/pkgcache.bin changed size while reading filesystem, attempting to re-read
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| 13:57 | brb, phone call
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| 13:58 | <alkisg> That's normal if you run apt update while running ltsp image
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| 14:07 | <markit> back
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| 14:07 | yep, but apt update is automatic and wondering why it takes /tmp in consideration
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| 14:08 | but back to our problem
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| 14:08 | cennected
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| 14:08 | <alkisg> markit: rootfs, /, is bind-mounted there in tmp for the ltsp image
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| 14:08 | <markit> let me know when you wamt me to run the client
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| 14:08 | <alkisg> bind mount means that the same path is in two places
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| 14:14 | markit: ok reboot client
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| 14:14 | <markit> ok
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| 14:14 | <alkisg> You had put my optimizations inbetween of your sddm configuration, so that destroyed ltsp.conf
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| 14:15 | <markit> I saw :(
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| 14:15 | login reached after 42"
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| 14:15 | <alkisg> OK, that sound better
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| 14:16 | <markit> I've configured for NFS home
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| 14:17 | <alkisg> You haven't configured the client part
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| 14:17 | You had only done the server part
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| 14:17 | I.e. FSTAB in ltsp.conf
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| 14:17 | <markit> my misunderstanding of the whole stuff :(
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| 14:18 | <alkisg> This one needed to be uncommented: FSTAB_HOME="server:/home /home nfs defaults,nolock 0 0"
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| 14:21 | <markit> tell me what to type
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| 14:21 | I see you can't quit that program
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| 14:23 | <alkisg> Something is wrong with epoptes there, but let's leave that for later
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| 14:25 | I tested with .iso images and not with the chrootless case
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| 14:25 | So I might have omitted some more services like nfs-kernel-server
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| 14:25 | Let's see
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| 14:28 | <markit> pws is ltsp101
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| 14:29 | <alkisg> Login needs less than 20', not bad
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| 14:29 | <markit> really :)))
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| 14:30 | user is amministratore
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| 14:33 | the 'infamous' kde icon cache... there is one in each user .cache also
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| 14:34 | <alkisg> If we include it in the image, will it get regenerated anyway?
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| 14:34 | Or it only gets regenerated one time?
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| 14:34 | <markit> I think that the problem is that in any case it search through all the icons to check if something has changed, and it's a hell of I/O
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| 14:35 | probably less I/O than if it has to recreate it, but I should test. I.e. if you look at the user *.kcache, and run a new kde program, the timestamp of .kcache change
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| 14:36 | so I think that at boot time it creates the .kcache with the icons it used to run the login and desktop, then it updates it
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| 14:37 | <alkisg> The first 100 MB is the kernel/initrd now, they grew too big because of the amdgpu and other drivers
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| 14:37 | <markit> do you want me to login in the client?
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| 14:38 | <alkisg> Only 202 to login? Woah that's very little!
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| 14:38 | I was getting more :)
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| 14:38 | No wait there
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| 14:38 | And that includes the sddm traffic
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| 14:38 | All is fine then
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| 14:39 | It's strange that the date there isn't the current one
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| 14:40 | So it's like they're opening it without actually writing anything... meh
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| 14:40 | OK anyway it seems faster than mate now :D
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| 14:40 | <markit> icon-cache.kcache is
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| 14:40 | <alkisg> Play a bit with it and tell me timings etc
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| 14:40 | <markit> ok, thanks a lot for fixing and improving my configuration
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| 14:40 | <alkisg> 15:39:11 vs 14:26
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| 14:40 | It's not the same time
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| 14:41 | np, thank you too for sponsoring the last release markit
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| 14:41 | <markit> btw, I've seen that tplink has a "not too costly" 24 Gbit port + 4 10Gb spf+ ports...
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| 14:41 | <alkisg> For now, I'll be using 2*1 Gbps bond on the servers, and plain full gigabit switches
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| 14:41 | As the government ordered a whole lot of new servers and switches for ltsp
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| 14:42 | In the next hardware update after 10 years, we'll see :)
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| 14:42 | Now at least we got rid of all pentium 3's and some p4's
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| 14:42 | <markit> Tplink T1700G-28TQ if you are curious :) ok, time to review your changes, update my "install notes" and do some tests
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| 14:42 | (TQ is fanless)
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| 14:43 | <alkisg> Sounds good :)
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| 14:44 | <markit> btw2: when I connect with socat SYSTEM:"sleep 1 && exec screen -xRR ra",pty,stderr tcp:<ip_ass_remota>:5500 & screen -l -S ra
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| 14:45 | then the X-term in my home PC seems not to like a lot of keyboard combinations
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| 14:45 | is really hard to work with emacs / nano or whatever, and nor TAB for bash completion works... is it normal?
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| 14:49 | <alkisg> markit: I think kubuntu is exposing some variable like TERM that screen/socat don't like, that's why I was having the issue with keyboard there,
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| 14:49 | but we'll have to look into this another time, as I'm working on something else currently...
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| 14:50 | <markit> sure, have a nice day :)
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| 14:51 | <alkisg> You too, do ping if something goes wrong with ltsp though :)
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| 15:25 | <fiesh> oh god tplink
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| 15:25 | apart from sony the only brand I will *never ever* buy anything again
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| 15:25 | my advice: don't buy it, you'll regret it, no matter what it is
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| 15:57 | <markit> fiesh: why? I usually buy netgear but I think are also cheap
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| 15:59 | <MWALTERS> I've been turned off netgear after this 48port poe switch I have... web interface doesn't work in any modern browser =/
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| 16:00 | <markit> MWALTERS: I've worked for some month for a municipality that had expensive HP Procurve... with web interfaces requiring Java for some features :(
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| 16:01 | MWALTERS: so the problems is (not only) the brand, but mainly their williness to keep things updated
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| 16:02 | <MWALTERS> yeah, it's not unusual, unfortunately =/. We only have 1 of those netgears, and I just keep it around for emergencies. We mostly have a bunch of cisco SGP small business switches
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| 16:02 | <markit> tplink seems have a LOT of features. I've tested (but not for ltsp) their 24 x 1Gb port and worked fine so far
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| 16:02 | <MWALTERS> I've replaced all of our routers with ubiquiti edge routers, which have been great... probably gonna go with edgeswitches when I need to buy switches in the future
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| 16:03 | They're like... $900usd for 500w 48p poe+... the web interface works well... and the cli works great too.
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| 16:04 | <MWALTERS> But yeah, you're right. My supermicro servers all require java for the silly remote console thing in the iLO =/
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| 16:04 | My thoughts: never let a firmware developer also develop the web admin interface ;)
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| 16:44 | <alkisg> TPLINK tl-sg1024de is one of the cheapest managed switches that I've seen, with flow control=off by default, so we've bought hundreds of them, and in 5+ years only one port of all these switches has failed
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| 16:44 | It even reports "the cable in that port has problems" and the cable length etc
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| 16:45 | vagrantc: ltsp 20.03 synced to ubuntu 20.04 and to the stable ppa, ty
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| 17:09 | <markit> alkisg: hi, I've looked at systemd-analyze blame and found 2 more services that eat time and are useless, added in MASK_SYSTEM_SERVICES, they are wpa_supplicant pppd-dns
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| 17:33 | <fiesh> must be random variance in the quality of tplink products... the ones I had all sucked horribly
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| 18:30 | <markit> alkisg: I've kdeconnect (/etc/xdg/autostart/org.kde.kdeconnect.daemon.desktop) that starts in the client even if I have MASK_SESSION_SERVICES=org.kde.discover.notifier org.kde.kdeconnect.daemon
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| 18:31 | Also discover seems was running anyway, I had to purge it
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| 18:31 | am I doing something wrong? seems they are "dbus" services and not easy to disable, but I don't really know what am I talking about
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| 18:32 | <quinox> does it start before you log in?
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| 18:32 | <markit> let me try
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| 18:32 | <quinox> I would think that KDE starts all sorts of shit as soon as you login with a KDE session
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| 18:33 | <markit> quinox: sure
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| 18:33 | i can't remove it due to a tons of dependencies
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| 18:33 | <quinox> I hate Mate, I don't use it but whenever you install it it will overwrite your Firefox homepage with a Mate URL >:(
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| 18:35 | I install all the Desktops / Window managers that people want, so my image contains at least 4 different ones at all times
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| 18:35 | <MWALTERS> just make them all use i3
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| 18:35 | <markit> quinox: yep, after login
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| 18:37 | MWALTERS: have a look at supermicro latest firmware for your MB, they intruduced HTML5 console recently
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| 18:40 | <MWALTERS> oh, thanks... I'll have to actually look at that
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| 18:40 | :)
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| 19:03 | <markit> alkisg: in 56-mask-services I find this line "re rm -f "/etc/xdg/autostart/$service.desktop" \" ... what does "re" stand for? seems not to be a command
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| 19:11 | <alkisg> back, reading...
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| 19:13 | markit, previously /etc/xdg/autostart was used, now there's a trend to migrate everything to systemd user services,
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| 19:13 | and, there's also desktop-environment-specific dirs for autostart
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| 19:13 | "re" means "run and exit on error"
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| 19:13 | It's a shell function in /usr/share/ltsp/ltsp
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| 19:14 | Did you remember to run `ltsp initrd` after modifying ltsp.conf?
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| 19:15 | MASK_SESSION_SERVICES=org.kde.discover.notifier org.kde.kdeconnect.daemon => remember to use quotes
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| 19:15 | A=B C in shell means:
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| 19:15 | Set A=B, and run C with A in the environment
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| 19:15 | MASK_SESSION_SERVICES="org.kde.discover.notifier org.kde.kdeconnect.daemon"
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| 19:24 | <markit> alkisg: quotes are there, dinner time, I will take one more look later, thanks
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| 19:25 | btw, for systemservices adding "wpa_supplicant pppd-dns" worked fine, some less seconds for boot :)
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| 19:26 | <alkisg> markit: sure, but we can't disable these by default as some people might want to use wifi or ppp with ltsp clients
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| 19:27 | <markit> you remarked the line POST_INIT_SWAPPINESS="sysctl vm.swappiness=10"
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| 19:28 | is it not userful at all?
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| 19:28 | <alkisg> In general, setting swappiness usually harms rather than helps
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| 19:28 | So I wanted to test with the defaults first
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| 19:28 | If you see that it helps, np, use it
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| 22:55 | <map7> alkisg: I did the caching the when I benchmark starting libreoffice it still takes the same amount of time.
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| 22:55 | PRE_INITRD_BOTTOM_IMAGE_TO_RAM="dd if=/root/images/x86_64.img of=/dev/null"
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| 22:56 | I upgraded to 20.3 this morning and that helped a little (15secs -> 9secs on a cold start of libreoffice)
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| 22:56 | 2secs on a warm start
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| 22:57 | <markit> map7: just curious, why dd in /dev/null?
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| 22:58 | <map7> that's what alkisg said to do if I want to cache the image to memory, but I would of thought it would just throw it away if anything goes to /dev/null
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| 22:59 | markit: I tried IMAGE_TO_RAM=1 but then my fat-client doesn't boot
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| 23:00 | <markit> map7: are you using the last version of ltsp, so only "fat, chrootless" clients are supported, right?
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| 23:01 | <map7> yes I'm using ltsp 20.3 from PPA on Debian bullseye (testing)
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| 23:02 | yesterday I was on 20.1
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| 23:02 | The IMAGE_TO_RAM wasn't booting on 20.1
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| 23:02 | I'm just testing now with 20.3 to see if that's fixed
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| 23:03 | <markit> btw, how much ram do you have on the client?
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| 23:03 | <map7> 8GB
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| 23:03 | <markit> urgh!
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| 23:03 | <map7> and my image is 2.9GB
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| 23:04 | The image seems to copy to ram, but the boot process stops at 'A start job is running for /home'
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| 23:05 | I do have this in my config: FSTAB_HOME="server:/home /home nfs defaults,nolock 0 0"
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| 23:05 | <markit> map7: what is your goal? Mine is improve boot and login performance with Kde (kubuntu 20.04), and speed in general
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| 23:05 | map7: and you have NFS enabled on the server side too? /etc/exports.d/ltsp-nfs.exports
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| 23:05 | <map7> same goal, but I'm running debian + xfce4
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| 23:06 | yes I do have NFS enabled
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| 23:06 | it all works if I don't use the image_to_ram
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| 23:06 | just slow
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| 23:06 | <markit> define slow :)
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| 23:06 | <map7> There is a blank screen before the login for about 15secs
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| 23:06 | libreoffice takes 9seconds to load on a cold boot
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| 23:07 | 2seconds on a warm start
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| 23:07 | It has to be better performance than our current LTSP5 thin client setup otherwise we won't go with fat-clients for now
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| 23:08 | We have a powerful server so our thin-clients start programs like libreoffice very fast
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| 23:08 | <markit> just tested my libreoffice cold start, 16 seconds (test environment, a VM for server, one as client)
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| 23:08 | <map7> yes that's slow
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| 23:09 | <markit> it's a matter of disk I/O I suppose
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| 23:09 | <map7> On our thin-clients (using the same server but different VM) it loads libreoffice in 1.5seconds
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| 23:09 | both VM's are on the same disk
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| 23:10 | same IO
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| 23:10 | <markit> do you have a fast connection with the switch? Have you tested with epoptes test the lan bandwidth?
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| 23:10 | <map7> same network
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| 23:10 | I have a 10Gbit switch for the server and each client (5 thin clients) have a 1Gbit connection to that server
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| 23:11 | <markit> thin clients just transfer screen, not the program and also have direct access to home, not through NFS
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| 23:12 | libreoffice warm start here 2 seconds too
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| 23:12 | <map7> Just testing the fat-client connection speed now
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| 23:13 | <markit> I've iftop to see how much traffic, but don't know how to check how much disk I/O with a sum (iotop -o is just in "real time")
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| 23:14 | map7: NFS is much worse in I/O than direct I/O, and seems that now that programmers have SSD, they care less and less about optimization of it
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| 23:14 | <map7> I'm getting 942Mbps down, 940Mbps up to that client
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| 23:15 | <markit> loading Libreoffice is about 80MB (from server to client) and 5MB in the other direction
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| 23:16 | <map7> Just timed the blank screen before login and it was 33seconds that boot
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| 23:17 | <markit> wondering if a NFS optimization could help, but I see there already "async" parameter
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| 23:17 | map7: try in the client systemd-analyze blame
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| 23:18 | you could find some service that slows thing down and are useless
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| 23:19 | <markit> also systemctl status should have no errors
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| 23:19 | you could have some service that has problems and wastes time
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| 23:20 | dmesg also could help
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| 23:21 | <map7> systemctl status says 'State: degraded'
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| 23:22 | <markit> if is nfs, use this line in ltsp.conf: MASK_SYSTEM_SERVICES="nfs-kernel-server wpa_supplicant pppd-dns"
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| 23:23 | (well, the last 2 services are useless for me, so you can just stay with nfs-kernel-server)
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| 23:23 | to see what is the problem, systemctl failed
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| 23:23 | (just learned watching alkisg troubleshoot my server this afternoon, lol)
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| 23:24 | <map7> cool
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| 23:25 | checked 'systemctl' and found it is nfs-server failing
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| 23:26 | Also in 'dmesg' it's complaining about a missing firmware for my NIC
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| 23:27 | <markit> map7: firmware should not be a problem, maybe you can't have certain features, or is not really stable without it, but should be fine since you tested it and was almost at 1Gb/s
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| 23:29 | now I try sync; echo 3 > /proc/sys/vm/drop_caches and then warm run again of libreoffice
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| 23:30 | again 15 seconds, so is really the time it takes to fetch the image from the server :(
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| 23:30 | 80MB at 1Gb/s should be 1 second of transfer
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| 23:31 | <map7> hmmm, could be NFS speed
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| 23:32 | <markit> I've run iotop -o on the server, and there has been NO I/O during the client libreoffice load (probably server caches that too)
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| 23:32 | so seems only a matter of NFS access to the compressed image... maybe the compress algorithm is not optimal?
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| 23:33 | let's have a look at client CPU also
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| 23:33 | mmm does not seem to be saturated during LiBo loading
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| 23:34 | I think only alkisg can save us :)
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| 23:35 | <map7> after adding the firmware and disabling those three services the blank screen is still taking 30seconds
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| 23:38 | my client is running an i3-7100U @ 2.4Ghz
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| 23:38 | Intel HD graphics 620
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| 23:38 | it's pretty new
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| 23:41 | <markit> I'm googling for nfs3 optimization
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| 23:41 | netstat -s (client side) could give info about network problems
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| 23:41 | <map7> markit: I now have an error free systemctl status and no errors in my dmesg at all
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| 23:41 | same slow speed
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| 23:45 | <markit> you can see what is "wrote" during boot by the client having a look at /run/initramfs/ltsp/0/up
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| 23:45 | using du -csh you can see how many MB
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| 23:47 | <map7> 16MB
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| 23:49 | My NFS mount is;
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| 23:49 | server:/home /home nfs defaults,nolock 0 0
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| 23:52 | <markit> map7: I've instead the default one generated by ltsp command
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| 23:53 | ah, sorry, in ltsp.conf, ok
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| 23:53 | but I think loading libo is a matter of fetching it's executable from the image file
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| 23:53 | <map7> FSTAB_HOME="server:/home /home nfs defaults,nolock 0 0"
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| 23:53 | Yes I agree
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| 23:54 | I don't think it has to do with my FSTAB_HOME line
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| 23:54 | <markit> cat /etc/exports.d/ltsp-nfs.exports
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| 23:54 | <map7> It's either NFS or the image file compression as you said
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| 23:54 | <markit> that has /srv/ltsp *(ro,async,crossmnt,no_subtree_check,no_root_squash,insecure)
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| 23:55 | but don't understand how is used by the client, is not listed if I use the "mount" command in the client
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| 23:55 | (I can only see home mounted as nfs4 protocol, and rsize=262144,wsize=262144 that look strange value to me)
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| 23:57 | <map7> my rsize & wsize on home NFS4 is 1048576
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| 23:58 | <markit> nfsstat -r shows 0 retransmissions
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| 23:59 | <map7> same
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| 23:59 | <markit> I think that a) the image is compressed, so it needs time to decompress what has been transfered b) nfs is not that efficient
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