IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.libera.chat (webchat)
Channel log from 1 December 2011 (all times are UTC)
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| 04:09 | <alkisg1> Gadi1: good work with the patch; we could also remove the NBDROOT environment variable support though, as NBDCLIENT would cover all our needs, making the nbd.initrd script smaller
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| 04:12 | 20:12<vagrantc>alkisg: i already convinced Yoe to add an nbd*=dhcp option that uses rootpath ==> great!
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| 04:13 | But I still think it'd be better to have a common syntax with NBD, i.e. not have to support NBDROOT env var mangling
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| 04:14 | Because as the script is now, you'd need to put a different syntax in root-path vs as a kernel parameter
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| 04:15 | stgraber has said in the past that he wouldn't mind switching to the colon-based syntax that Gadi's patch implements, so if Yoe accepts the patch there's no need for NBDROOT mangling at all
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| 04:42 | <alkisg> Gadi1: also, I think that the last part of the host:port/path scheme should be the path (e.g. /opt/ltsp/images/i386.img) not the device name (e.g. /dev/nbd0). For our purposes, the device name can always be /dev/nbd0, we don't have a reason to pass it in the kernel command line...
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| 04:51 | (and one could use root=/dev/nbd5 if he really needs to)
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| 05:49 | <alkisg> Yoe, Gadi1, stgraber, vagrantc: here's a new version for nbd-client.initrd that should cover all our needs, while still supporting the commas-based syntax: http://paste.ubuntu.com/755709/
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| 05:51 | I also did some small optimizations here and there, using case instead of sed etc, so I'm not sending a .diff, it would be too large.
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| 05:52 | It's untested, but I think it should work
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| 05:57 | Ah the original script assumes that ROOTPATH contains "nbdroot=xxx", I don't think that it should... let me paste a revisted version...
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| 06:01 | Yoe: http://paste.ubuntu.com/755714/
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| 06:40 | And the final one :) for today: https://launchpadlibrarian.net/86312584/nbd-client.initrd
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| 07:31 | <alkisg> Yoe: I uploaded a version in launchpad that fixes the ipv6 colon problem. I also added -swap, to allow someone to use a /swap file inside the `nbd-server -c` exported root partition. If you don't want that, we can still do it from the LTSP NBDCLIENT wrapper, not problem. Thank you!
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| 07:37 | Ah sorry, there's another problem, fixing that as well... :-/
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| 07:42 | <Yoe> alkisg: I have a more principal objection now, just typing the mail
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| 07:42 | <alkisg> Yoe, I just got the problem you were reffering to
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| 07:42 | But I can fix it, it's well defined, ipv6 addresses always requires brackets in that syntax
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| 07:43 | <Yoe> no, this is something else
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| 07:43 | ah, but hang on
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| 07:43 | <alkisg> OK, what is it?
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| 07:43 | <Yoe> nvm, I'm silly
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| 07:43 | * Yoe still needs his coffee | |
| 07:43 | <alkisg> OK give me 5' to finally fix that properly (...hopefully, I didn't have my coffee yet either :D)
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| 07:44 | <Yoe> I was going to say "don't use the NFS syntax if we're not sure we're booting from NBD", but we exit early if that's the case
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| 07:44 | so it's not a problem
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| 07:45 | * Yoe heads off for breakfast | |
| 07:53 | <alkisg> Yoe: ok I submitted a fix version in the launchpad bug report, I *hope* it's finally ok :)
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| 07:54 | Ouch, please remove that debugging "echo here" though :D
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| 07:57 | bbl, will read irc logs
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| 08:08 | <Yoe> alkisg: question: you parse out an nbdpath variable, but it's never used. What's the point of that?
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| 08:10 | <alkisg> Yoe: it's used in line 66
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| 08:10 | nbdport=${nbdport:-$nbdpath}
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| 08:10 | <Yoe> ah, yes, missed that
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| 08:10 | <Yoe> mm, but the comment just above that is wrong
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| 08:10 | <alkisg> Ah sorry the line numbering is wrong, i have yet another version here
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| 08:11 | <Yoe> yes, well, I'm not counting lines :-)
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| 08:11 | <alkisg> Is it? Can I use nbd-client to connect to a name-based export on port 1234?
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| 08:11 | <Yoe> but anyway, nbd-client *does* allow specifying a named export and a port at the same time
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| 08:11 | since 2.9.22 or thereabouts, IIRC
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| 08:11 | let me check...
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| 08:11 | <alkisg> OK, but we need to mofidy the nbd-client call below too then
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| 08:12 | <Yoe> yes
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| 08:14 | since 2.9.23, to be exact
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| 08:15 | <alkisg> So we'd need something like "if [ -n "$nbdpath" ]; then nameparam="-N $nbdpath"; fi"
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| 08:15 | and then pass $nameparam to nbd-client. And of course nameparam can be empty
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| 08:16 | <Yoe> I was thinking of having a $dashn that is set to ${nbdpath:+-N}
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| 08:16 | <alkisg> Let me put yet another version to pastebin... in 5'...
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| 08:16 | <Yoe> and to set nbdpath to nbdport just before if it contains non-number values
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| 08:16 | you wouldn't have a git branch or something? that'd be easier to deal with :)
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| 08:16 | <alkisg> Ah no need, your idea is good, here it is:
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| 08:17 | ${nbdpath:+-N} $nbdpath $nbdport
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| 08:17 | All of them :)
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| 08:18 | I have bzr branches, not git, but i can quickly open an account to whatever git host you use
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| 08:18 | <Yoe> github, sourceforge, debian, my own
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| 08:18 | take your pick
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| 08:18 | <alkisg> Let's say github
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| 08:18 | <Yoe> however, the 'debian' branch is only on git.debian.org and my personal git server
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| 08:18 | <alkisg> Ah
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| 08:19 | <Yoe> no, I can push the debian branch to github too, not a problem
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| 08:19 | <alkisg> Your server then? I don't mind, whatever
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| 08:19 | wait wait
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| 08:19 | <Yoe> it's there now
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| 08:19 | <alkisg> I only need to branch it, not push
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| 08:19 | <Yoe> (at github)
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| 08:19 | yes, true
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| 08:19 | <alkisg> So I only need the git command line for that... :D
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| 08:20 | Let me branch from the debian git then
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| 08:20 | <Yoe> okay, I don't know what you did, but you somehow managed to confuse the hell out of vim syntax colorization
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| 08:21 | <alkisg> Haha
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| 08:22 | * alkisg is reading the git manpage for how to branch from debian/users/wouter/nbd.git, any help welcome... :) | |
| 08:23 | <Yoe> git clone git://git.debian.org/users/wouter/nbd.git
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| 08:23 | I think
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| 08:23 | not sure about the URL, but 'clone' is the command you need
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| 08:24 | ah, yes, anonscm.d.o, not git.d.o
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| 08:24 | and there's a "git" before the "users" bit of the path
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| 08:24 | so git://anonscm.debian.org/git/users/wouter/nbd.git
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| 08:25 | <alkisg> Thanks, got it
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| 08:25 | <Yoe> ah, yes, I know what the problem is now
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| 08:25 | the ${nbdsrv#[} bit
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| 08:25 | vim thinks that opens a square bracket which isn't closed
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| 08:26 | which is Wrong(TM)
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| 08:26 | <alkisg> Ah. OK, leave that, I think I can write that part of the code better anyway, without the second case
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| 08:26 | Let me do the nbdparam first
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| 08:26 | <Yoe> also, I don't understand why you moved to this? the ${nbdsrv%:*} seemed to work, no?
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| 08:27 | <alkisg> I'll re-read + rewrite this, but question: I think we can also support ipv6 addresses without the [], do we want to?
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| 08:28 | (counting the number of : will allow us to separate port from ip)
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| 08:28 | <Yoe> no, I don't want to do that, it seems like a bad idea
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| 08:28 | <alkisg> OK. Let me do the pathname first...
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| 08:29 | <Yoe> also, it's based on the incorrect premise that the number of colons in an IPv6 address is static
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| 08:30 | 2001:32f:6f8::1:abcd is a valid IPv6 address, equivalent to 2001:32f:6f8:[lots of zeroes]:1:abcd
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| 08:30 | <alkisg> True. But maybe we could allow ipv6 ip without brackets, and assume that there's no port there
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| 08:31 | <Yoe> yes, and then you deal with the bugreports of confused users who don't understand why their port-using bracketless IPv6 specification doesn't seem to work
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| 08:32 | <alkisg> Hehe your experience shows, that you've received many bug reports from confused users :)
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| 08:33 | <Yoe> http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=591275 was especially fun
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| 08:35 | <alkisg> Yoe, this should do it for nbdpath: http://paste.ubuntu.com/755788/
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| 08:36 | * alkisg goes on to better check the damned `case "$nbdsrv" in`... | |
| 08:37 | <Yoe> I don't think grep -q will work on the initramfs
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| 08:39 | <alkisg> Yoe: echo hi | busybox grep -q hi
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| 08:39 | echo $?
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| 08:39 | 0
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| 08:40 | <Yoe> oh, hrm. Okay, then
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| 08:40 | but you're also removing the nbdroot=dhcp,port,device case
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| 08:40 | which people are actually using
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| 08:41 | <alkisg> Ah I thought that dhcp part was added only a few days ago for vagrantc
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| 08:41 | <Yoe> no, it's been done months ago
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| 08:41 | also the same for the nbdroot=dhcp, which you've also removed
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| 08:42 | <alkisg> My idea there was that nbdroot=<empty> would imply dhcp
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| 08:42 | But if it's been used for months, of course it should be backwards compatible
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| 08:42 | So I'll put it back. Do you also want <empty> to mean dhcp?
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| 08:42 | <Yoe> that makes it impossible to have nbdroot specified through DHCP and having root=/dev/mapper/vg-lv
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| 08:42 | no, I think it's good to be explicit
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| 08:43 | though it might make sense to also (in addition) support nbdroot= less syntax in the DHCP root-path option
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| 08:43 | <alkisg> root should always be specified in the command line, it's defined in kernel-parameters.txt, no?
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| 08:43 | <Yoe> I now require that, though that could be considered a bug
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| 08:43 | the point is that people do crazy stuff, like root-on-LVM-on-NBD
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| 08:43 | or root-on-MD-on-NBD
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| 08:43 | <alkisg> So if one wants root=/dev/mapper/vg-lv, he should put it the command line, not in dhcp
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| 08:44 | <Yoe> that's a regression wrt current functionality
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| 08:44 | <alkisg> root=/dev/nfs can't be changed from dhcp either
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| 08:44 | <Yoe> that's not the problem
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| 08:45 | <alkisg> OK let's back up and list the use cases that break
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| 08:45 | <Yoe> if you have root=/dev/mapper/vg-lv and you don't have an nbdroot parameter, then the script exits before doing anything
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| 08:45 | so that's why I added nbdroot=dhcp
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| 08:45 | <alkisg> One could have nbdroot= there instead
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| 08:45 | <Yoe> there's a README.Debian that specifies what I'm currently supporting
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| 08:46 | <alkisg> But of course we can remain backwards compatible with nbdroot=dhcp
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| 08:47 | <alkisg> meh I was reading my ancient Lucid one, let me read the one from git instead
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| 08:49 | <Yoe> there's one mistake in that file, though
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| 08:50 | it says that there-parameter nbdroot= takes precedence over root=, but that's wrong
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| 08:50 | <alkisg> So the old commas-based syntax won't support specifying both a name and a port, and the new host:port/path syntax won't support specifying a device (root=x will be required). Is that ok?
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| 08:51 | <Yoe> hrm
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| 08:51 | there should probably be an option to specify everything
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| 08:52 | <alkisg> Why not just use root=/path/to/device? What's wrong with that? To allow even that to be set from dhcp?
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| 08:52 | <Yoe> there's nothing wrong with that, per se, but I know there are people who use LVM on top of NBD, and then it won't work
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| 08:53 | the three-parameter nbdroot= version was only added because I got a bugreport from a user who tried to do something like that
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| 08:53 | <alkisg> Why won't it work, if they specify both root=/dev/mapper/vg-lv on the command line, AND nbdroot, from either the command line or from dhcp?
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| 08:53 | <Yoe> the script can't figure out what the NBD device is if you don't specify it
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| 08:54 | and root=/dev/mapper/vg-lv doesn't say what the NBD device should be
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| 08:54 | and if the nbdroot parameter doesn't contain it, you've lost
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| 08:54 | <alkisg> I'm starting to get the problem
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| 08:54 | First, he could solve it with an NBDCLIENT wrapper
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| 08:55 | Second, why do we need to specify the /dev/nbd0 device at all?
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| 08:55 | Why not assume that it's always /dev/nbd0, and the other part is where the real file system would be?
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| 08:55 | <Yoe> it's fine to fall back to a _default_ of nbd0, but I'm not going to hardcode that
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| 08:56 | <dobber> wow, enabling nbd compession made my image 3 times smaller...
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| 08:56 | <Yoe> (I thought there were previous versions that couldn't work with that, but I was mistaken; there was an issue with hardcoding/defaulting to _eth0_ in the past, not nbd0...)
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| 08:56 | <alkisg> Yoe: that person that's using LVM. Where does he add his part of the code?
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| 08:56 | You mount nbd on /dev/nbd0, and root is on /dev/mapper/vg-lv. There's some code needed to make that work, right?
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| 08:57 | <Yoe> alkisg: yes, that's done by the rest of the initramfs
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| 08:57 | lvm also installs an initramfs scrit
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| 08:57 | script, even
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| 08:57 | <alkisg> Ah
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| 08:57 | <Yoe> my script only handles connecting the nbd device, on purpose
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| 08:57 | I don't mount anything
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| 08:58 | <alkisg> OK, so the user didn't need to write any code, the LVM initramfs script "generates" /dev/mapper/vg-lv from the block device it sees in /dev/nbd0
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| 08:58 | <Yoe> exactly
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| 08:58 | <alkisg> Got it finally... /me thinks...
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| 08:58 | <Yoe> :)
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| 08:58 | there's a message in one of my changelog entries saying something like "netbooting is a mess"
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| 08:59 | I ran against loads of cornercases that I didn't initially think of
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| 08:59 | <alkisg> Is a can of worms, in response to my ROOTSERVER request, I loved what you said there :D
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| 08:59 | <Yoe> ah, yes, that was it
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| 09:00 | <alkisg> Yoe: so if root=xxx doesn't contain "nbd", can you default to /dev/nbd0?
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| 09:01 | That would allow LTSP to use root=/root without having to specify a block device for nbd
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| 09:01 | <Yoe> I guess that would work
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| 09:01 | except, no
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| 09:01 | <alkisg> @#*$(#&*$# that can sucks :D
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| 09:02 | <Yoe> if root=xxx doesn't contain nbd *and* nbdroot= also doesn't specify a device is when we should default to nbd0
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| 09:02 | <alkisg> Yup
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| 09:02 | <Yoe> but only if we did see an nbdroot= parameter at that point
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| 09:02 | <alkisg> My idea was that that LVM person could do this then: root=/dev/mapper/vg-lv nbdroot=host:port/path
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| 09:02 | <Yoe> otherwise we risk re-introducing #591275
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| 09:03 | <alkisg> And, same as LTSP with root=/root, that specifies all 4 options
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| 09:05 | <Yoe> I'd still like to see the option to specify an nbd device in all cases -- but I'm not asking you to write that if you don't see a clean way :-)
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| 09:06 | <alkisg> Yoe: how about nbddev=device?
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| 09:06 | <Yoe> ... why not
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| 09:08 | in fact, that makes perfect sense. The server and port or name tell you where the device is, not where it needs to go
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| 09:08 | let's do it that way. You on it already?
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| 09:08 | <alkisg> Sure, but I only have about 30' before I have to go
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| 09:08 | <Yoe> okay
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| 09:11 | <alkisg> I assume that it doesn't make sense to have both root=/dev/nbdX AND nbddev=xxx, right?
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| 09:12 | (to simplify the code a bit)
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| 09:12 | <Yoe> if that happens, root= should override nbddev=
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| 09:12 | <alkisg> Nice
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| 09:17 | <dobber> how do i tell ltsp-build-client to download different ubuntu release ?
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| 09:18 | <alkisg> Yoe: what do those do?
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| 09:18 | nbdrootdev=${nbdrootdev%p*}
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| 09:18 | nbdbasedev=${nbdbasedev%p*}
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| 09:19 | nbd0partitionsomething?
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| 09:19 | <Yoe> yes
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| 09:19 | you can specify root=/dev/nbd0p1
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| 09:20 | which means we need to connect /dev/nbd0
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| 09:25 | <alkisg> (10:40:33 πμ) Yoe: but you're also removing the nbdroot=dhcp,port,device case ==> If one sets ROOTPATH in this case, what happens?
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| 09:28 | <Yoe> I don't think anything should happen then
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| 09:28 | <alkisg> k
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| 09:29 | <Yoe> well, not with what's in DHCP, anyway :-)
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| 09:33 | <alkisg> Whole file: http://paste.ubuntu.com/755823/
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| 09:33 | Git diff: http://paste.ubuntu.com/755824/
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| 09:34 | Yoe: I need to go in 5', but if you think more work is needed, I can do it in the afternoon (in 5-6 hours)
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| 09:42 | <alkisg> Line 13: nbddev="${x$nbddev=}" ==> nbddev="${x#nbddev=}"
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| 10:03 | <dobber> how do i update debootstrap on ubuntu (10.04) with 11.04 and 11.10 scripts ?
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| 10:03 | this directory /usr/share/debootstrap/scripts/
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| 10:04 | i have scripts up to maverick (10.10)
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| 10:10 | oh, there was an update to debootstrap with new scripts
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| 10:11 | its working now
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| 13:47 | <mgariepy> good morning everyone
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| 14:53 | <highvoltage> good morning mgariepy
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| 14:53 | (I knew I missed one of them)
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| 14:55 | <mgariepy> lol
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| 14:56 | <dobber> http://cl.ly/1q1S023v1g24302x2s3o
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| 14:56 | good one
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| 15:05 | <gvy> a broken md array part? (md superblock can be hard to exterminate given the variety of versions and locations)
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| 15:10 | <dobber> i meant the error message. Boot has failed, sleeping forever.
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| 16:20 | <wellsouza> Hi! everyone please my ltsp5 dont work with local paralel printer
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| 16:20 | <wellsouza> any ideia about?
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| 16:22 | <gvy> I'd first check client's dmesg whether the drivers got loaded at all
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| 16:46 | <wellsouza> como coloca o mode +i???
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| 17:03 | <wellsouza> help
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| 17:03 | the local printer lp0 not work in clients
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| 17:03 | howto set mode +i
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| 17:07 | <gvy> <gvy> I'd first check client's dmesg whether the drivers got loaded at all
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| 17:08 | <wellsouza> is dotprint
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| 17:08 | not lase or deskjet
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| 17:08 | dotmatriz
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| 17:08 | * gvy remembers those well | |
| 17:09 | <gvy> can you log in locally on a client? (ctrl-alt-f2, root, password)
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| 17:09 | if not, the client chroot might need to be tweaked
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| 17:09 | if yes, ls -l /dev/lp*
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| 17:09 | <wellsouza> my lts.conf PRINTER_0_DEVICE = /dev/lp0 PRINTER_0_TYPE = P
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| 17:09 | <wellsouza> but not work
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| 17:09 | <gvy> if there's /dev/lp0, it might help to try smth like: echo "hello world" > /dev/lp0
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| 17:10 | <wellsouza> send to my server > /dev/lp0
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| 17:10 | <gvy> not *server*
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| 17:10 | but *client*
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| 17:10 | it helps to diagnose things step by step to know that all the lower steps do work :)
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| 17:10 | <wellsouza> yes. print in server if i type in client
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| 17:10 | ok
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| 17:11 | <gvy> ouch -- you echo to client's lp0 and the server's printer prints?
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| 17:11 | <gvy> if you logged in via graphics, you've logged into server and not client, roughly
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| 17:14 | <wellsouza> yes
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| 17:19 | <Gadi> wellsouza: you do understand that you need to set up an HP JetDirect print queue on the server pointing to the IP address of the thin client and port 9100, yes?
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| 17:30 | <alkisg> I'm guessing "no" :)
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| 17:32 | Gadi, here's Yoe's and myself's latest try, I think something like that would cover all of our needs, right? http://paste.ubuntu.com/755823/
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| 17:33 | Yoe, do you think it needs more work? Or just some testing + fixing any bugs?
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| 17:38 | <Gadi> alkisg: that doesn't seem to support the case of nbdroot=1.2.3.4:1234
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| 17:38 | is that intentional?
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| 17:39 | <alkisg> No, I think it does support that...
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| 17:39 | <Gadi> I don't see a case that would match on that
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| 17:40 | <alkisg> case "$nbdsrv" in ==> *:*)
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| 17:40 | Ah, you mean without a name?
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| 17:40 | nbdroot=1.2.3.4:1234/
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| 17:40 | <Gadi> yeah
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| 17:40 | <gvy> Gadi, hi -- thx for yesterday's hint on *update-kernels, my current guess is that the mess asks for a heracles
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| 17:40 | <alkisg> Is nfsroot=1.2.3.4:1234 valid?
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| 17:40 | I don't think so, it doesn't contain a path...
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| 17:41 | <Gadi> so?
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| 17:41 | <alkisg> We only want to support name-based exports with that syntax, right?
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| 17:42 | <Gadi> I thought it would be nice to keep what we currently have, too -> nbdroot=1.2.3.4:1234 (defaults to /dev/nbd0)
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| 17:42 | <alkisg> Gadi, what would that do, server-side?
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| 17:43 | <Gadi> connect to the nbd server at 1.2.3.4 on port 1234
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| 17:43 | using /dev/nbd0
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| 17:45 | <alkisg> Use a named based export, or a port-based export?
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| 17:45 | Using / as the export name? Or without using an export name at all?
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| 17:45 | nbd-client 1.2.3.4 1234, or nbd-client -N / 1.2.3.4 1234?
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| 17:45 | Currently (oneiric+, maybe wheezy too), we're no longer using the old port-based exports
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| 17:45 | Since IANA assigned port 10809 what's the number
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| 17:46 | <Gadi> gotcha
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| 17:47 | is "/" a default nbdname?
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| 17:47 | <alkisg> No
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| 17:47 | No names are defined by default
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| 17:47 | <Gadi> ok, then I guess there is no need for that syntax
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| 17:47 | <alkisg> Well, unless we *want* to also support port-based exports... but do we have reason to?
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| 17:48 | (they'll still be supported by the comma syntax)
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| 17:48 | <Gadi> only for backports
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| 17:48 | <alkisg> We weren't using the nbd script for ltsp, I don't think we need to backport something there
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| 17:48 | <Gadi> or maybe if there is an old server with new chroot
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| 17:48 | ie, server = lucid, chroot = oneirc+
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| 17:49 | <alkisg> They'll just need to update their pxelinux.cfg/default
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| 17:49 | In *any* case, even if we support that
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| 17:49 | <Gadi> but the l-u-i script will break that
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| 17:49 | <alkisg> BOOTPROMPT_OPTIONS=xxx etc
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| 17:49 | <gvy> btw what was the multi-port scheme created for? several different or individual [rw?] root images?
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| 17:49 | <Gadi> right
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| 17:51 | <alkisg> Gadi, they'd need to change pxelinux.cfg/default anyway, currently we don't have root=, nbddev=, or nbdroot=. So they'd need to edit those 2 files anyway.
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| 17:51 | <Gadi> gvy: nbd-server has only supported multi-ports (only recently added names). We used it to serve up different chroot images to different clients, if desired
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| 17:51 | <gvy> thx, guessed so but wondered if that's a correct guess
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| 17:52 | <Gadi> alkisg: well, if we supported nbdroot=1.2.3.4:1234 (default /dev/nbd0), they wouldn't need root and nbddev, as well
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| 17:52 | right?
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| 17:52 | * gvy thinks that some scheme with sane passing of {nfs,nbd}root= might be due | |
| 17:53 | <alkisg> Gadi, yes, but does it make sense? If they need to change it once, they shouldn't choose a "legacy way to do it"
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| 17:53 | <Gadi> gvy: yeah, we are working thru the sanity
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| 17:53 | <gvy> and probably with transports as plugins and not a mplayer's main() pieces
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| 17:53 | <Gadi> :)
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| 17:53 | <gvy> good :)
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| 17:53 | that was the 5.2 merge culprit for me so far
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| 17:53 | *is, even
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| 17:53 | <Gadi> alkisg: i totally agree. no need
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| 17:54 | * alkisg likes to stick to some standards, even if they're not completely related to the problem being solved :P | |
| 17:55 | <gvy> like RFC1149? ;-)
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| 17:55 | <alkisg> http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc2224.txt
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| 17:55 | Haha, IP transmission? :D No, not *that* unrelated :D
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| 17:55 | <Gadi> so, is Yoe ready to merge your changes?
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| 17:56 | <alkisg> I think he agrees on most parts, and just some debugging is needed, but he didn't say the final "yup I'll commit it" yet
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| 17:56 | * Gadi nods | |
| 17:56 | <gvy> guys, one more silly q: is anyone working with ltsp git? I'm using git-bzr locally (as the package build from git is readily available and quite convenient)
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| 17:57 | <Gadi> as soon as he does, we can make those two other changes and really clean things up
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| 17:57 | gvy: I think most of us are using bzr and launchpad
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| 17:57 | * gvy guessed :] | |
| 17:58 | <gvy> k, np
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| 17:58 | <Gadi> tho, there are only a few actual package maintainers here
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| 17:58 | :)
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| 17:58 | and I am not one of them
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| 17:58 | :)
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| 17:58 | <gvy> :)
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| 17:59 | <alkisg> I am... but not in ltsp :P
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