IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.libera.chat (webchat)

Channel log from 14 September 2011 (all times are UTC)

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08:17	<nosedrum> hi there !
08:17	me again !
08:17	i'm in ltsp upgrade 9.04 - 9.10 -> 10.0.4.3
08:18	server number 12 have a issuer
08:18	all client boot with initramfs busy box
08:18	i have re-create the image
08:18	-> same issue
08:19	i have edit /var/lib/tftpboot/ltsp/i386/pxelinux.cfg/default
08:19	-> same issue
08:19	No other dhcp on the network
08:19	<alkisg> !quiet-splash
08:19	<ltsp> alkisg: quiet-splash: to disable the splash screen in Ubuntu, in order to see any boot error messages, run `sudo gedit /var/lib/tftpboot/ltsp/i386/pxelinux.cfg/default` and remove quiet splash .
08:20	<alkisg> Do that, and tell us what's the error message in busybox
08:20	<nosedrum> i hjave do that
08:20	<alkisg> OK, tell us the error message then
08:20	<nosedrum> the message is
08:20	" no init found, try passing boot arg"
08:21	<alkisg> Paste your pxelinux.cfg/default to pastebin
08:21	!pastebin
08:21	<ltsp> alkisg: pastebin: the LTSP pastebin is at http://ltsp.pastebin.com. Please paste all text longer than a line or two to the pastebin, as it helps to reduce traffic in the channel. Don't forget to paste the URL of the text here.
08:22	<nosedrum> http://pastebin.com/dear2yLE
08:24	<alkisg> nosedrum: ok, now, right next to "nomodeset" there, put: break=bottom
08:24	<nosedrum> ok
08:24	<alkisg> Then reboot the client, you should get a busybox shell
08:24	<nosedrum> the user reboot the client
08:25	( it's a office user on site)
08:25	FPAWNING SHELL
08:26	WITHIN THE INITRAMFS
08:26	<alkisg> In busybox, do: ls -l /root/sbin/init
08:26	Does that file exist? What's its size?
08:26	<nosedrum> 2 sec this is a user
08:27	<alkisg> Sure. In the meantime, can you do this in the server? ls -lh /opt/ltsp/images/i386.img
08:28	<nosedrum> no such file or directory
08:28	<alkisg> So init is missing from the nbd image, let's see why. Run the command I said above ^
08:28	<nosedrum> root@ltsp_a06:/opt/ltsp/i386# ls -lh /opt/ltsp/images/i386.img
08:28	-rw-r--r-- 1 root root 412M 2011-09-14 10:06 /opt/ltsp/images/i386.img
08:29	<alkisg> Now, run this: grep nbd /etc/inetd.conf
08:29	<nosedrum> no such file or directory on client busy box for ls -l /root/sbin/init
08:29	root@ltsp_a06:/opt/ltsp/i386# ls -lh /opt/ltsp/images/i386.img
08:29	-rw-r--r-- 1 root root 412M 2011-09-14 10:06 /opt/ltsp/images/i386.img
08:29	root@ltsp_a06:/opt/ltsp/i386# grep nbd /etc/inetd.conf
08:29	#9572 stream tcp nowait nobody /usr/sbin/tcpd /usr/sbin/nbdswapd
08:29	#2000 stream tcp nowait nobody /usr/sbin/tcpd /usr/sbin/nbdrootd /opt/ltsp/images/i386.img
08:30	<alkisg> Hmmm can you run: sudo ltsp-update-kernels?
08:30	And then remove "break=bottom", and reboot the client?
08:30	Ah sorry
08:30	Mistaken
08:30	Don't do those yet
08:31	<nosedrum> no reboot ?
08:31	<alkisg> Next commands in the server: sudo mount -o loop /opt/ltsp/images/i386.img /mnt; ls -l /mnt/sbin/init
08:31	What's the output of those?
08:31	<nosedrum> root@ltsp_a06:/opt/ltsp/i386# mount -o loop /opt/ltsp/images/i386.img /mnt; ls -l /mnt/sbin/init
08:31	-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 104364 2008-09-30 01:52 /mnt/sbin/init
08:33	<alkisg> Ah, wait, let's back up
08:33	(11:29:28 πμ) nosedrum: #2000 stream tcp nowait nobody /usr/sbin/tcpd /usr/sbin/nbdrootd /opt/ltsp/images/i386.img
08:34	Is that a comment in front of that line?
08:34	#
08:34	<nosedrum> yes !
08:34	<alkisg> It shouldn't be
08:34	<nosedrum> ok
08:34	<alkisg> Do you have an /etc/nbd-server/config file?
08:34	Or something similar?
08:34	<nosedrum> just 2000
08:35	i have edited the file root@ltsp_a06:/opt/ltsp/i386# vi /etc/inetd.conf
08:35	<alkisg> Wait
08:35	<nosedrum> no /etc/nbd-server/config file
08:35	<alkisg> ls -l /etc/nbd-server
08:35	No files there?
08:35	<nosedrum> root@ltsp_a06:/opt/ltsp/i386# ls -l /etc/nbd-server
08:35	total 0
08:36	<alkisg> netstat -nap \| grep :2000
08:36	What's the output of that?
08:36	<nosedrum> it's a directory
08:36	http://pastebin.com/z4fQpkuf
08:37	<alkisg> Ah, you're using xinetd instead of inetd
08:37	That's the problem
08:37	Why are you using xinetd? Any specific reasons?
08:37	<nosedrum> because it's a upgrade
08:37	9.04 -> 9.10
08:37	and 10.0.4.3 files are dw
08:37	<alkisg> 9.04 still used inetd, not xinetd
08:37	You must have installed xinetd manually at some time
08:37	<nosedrum> it is 9.10 right now
08:37	<alkisg> Anyway, do you need xinetd?
08:38	<nosedrum> and 10.4.3 sill in progress
08:38	<alkisg> My advice is that you install openbsd-inetd, and that will remove xinetd from your system
08:38	<nosedrum> sure : /etc/init.d/xinetd
08:38	<alkisg> This will give you a normal ltsp installation, instead of a customized one
08:38	sudo apt-get install openbsd-inetd
08:39	<nosedrum> there is the apt lock of upgrade
08:39	2sec
08:39	.....
08:39	<alkisg> Ah, if you're upgrading, wait until it finishes
08:39	Don't interrupt it
08:39	(and don't use the server while you upgrade!)
08:40	<nosedrum> E: Internal Error, Could not perform immediate configuration (2) on mountall
08:40	lol
08:41	we upgrade all server still working
08:41	<alkisg> ...
08:41	If it breaks, you know you only have yourself to blame, right? :)
08:42	<nosedrum> it will not
08:42	<alkisg> I like your confidence. Anyway, when you're done upgrading, and you've reached 10.04, run: sudo apt-get install openbsd-inetd; sudo ltsp-update-image --force
08:43	This will fix you inetd so that the client boots again. But in 10.04, not before.
08:43	<nosedrum> i can't say the users to not work for the day
08:45	<alkisg> You can upgrade in the weekend, or use virtual machines, or use different servers etc
08:45	<nosedrum> --force rebuilt the client ?
08:45	like built-client ?
08:45	<alkisg> No, run ltsp-update-image --help to see what it does
08:46	<nosedrum> apt-get install openbsd-inetd => OK
08:46	<alkisg> It creates the nbd image, updates the kernels, and updates inetd
08:46	But that's in 10.04, I'm not sure if it's there in 9.10.
08:47	<nosedrum> no force option
08:47	root@ltsp_a06:/opt/ltsp/i386# ltsp-update-image -a i386 --force
08:47	/usr/sbin/ltsp-update-image: option non reconnue '--force
08:47	root@ltsp_a06:/opt/ltsp/i386# ltsp-update-image --help
08:47	/usr/sbin/ltsp-update-image [OPTION]
08:47	-b, --base Base of ltsp chroot. Default is /opt/ltsp if unspecified.
08:47	-p, --port Port you wish this nbd image to communicate on. Default
08:47	is 2000.
08:47	-n, --no-comp Do not compress the image.
08:47	-a, --arch Architecture of this image. Default is arch of the host.
08:47	-h, --help This message
08:47	i do a simple -a i 386
08:47	<alkisg> No, it won't help
08:48	Upgrade to 10.04 first
08:48	Or, remove the comment from your inetd.conf and restart inetd
08:49	<nosedrum> tftp is commented
08:49	<alkisg> The nbd parts
08:50	<nosedrum> root@ltsp_a06:/opt/ltsp/i386# cat /etc/inetd.conf \| grep nbd
08:50	#9572 stream tcp nowait nobody /usr/sbin/tcpd /usr/sbin/nbdswapd
08:50	2000 stream tcp nowait nobody /usr/sbin/tcpd /usr/sbin/nbdrootd /opt/ltsp/images/i386.img
08:50	<alkisg> And nbdswapd too, unless if you want to completely disable swap
08:51	<nosedrum> now the client load ubuntu logo
08:51	but after 10 secs => busy box
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08:52	<alkisg> Again, remove quiet splash, and tell the error message
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08:52	<alkisg> And, output of `netstat -nap \| grep :2000` in the server
08:53	<nosedrum> http://pastebin.com/BXVcr6Kg
08:55	message
08:55	not init found
08:55	try passing boot args
08:55	same ..
08:56	<alkisg> There's a "size" displayed when nbd connects
08:56	<nosedrum> on client ?
08:56	<alkisg> negotiation... size .... etc
08:56	Yes
08:56	What is the size there?
08:56	That's before the "no init found" message
08:56	<nosedrum> = 421652 kb
08:57	<alkisg> Ah, btw, unmount your /mnt
08:57	<nosedrum> already do
08:59	<alkisg> sorry something came up, need to go, bbl
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09:00	<nosedrum> arf ....
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09:04	<junkY_San> hey
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09:14	<Hyperbyte> Yo, junkY_San!
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09:56	<junkY_San> Hyperbyte, 2 days ago you told me about a graphical menu to select the session within ldm. do you have any link to a documentation?
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09:57	<junkY_San> my goal is to switch between 3 sessions: rdp1, rdp2, ltsp on ltsp-server
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10:19	<Hyperbyte> You could do it with the shortcuts
10:20	You can also do it with the 'menu' screen script I believe
10:20	!lts.conf
10:20	<ltsp> Hyperbyte: lts.conf: http://manpages.ubuntu.com/lts.conf
10:20	<Hyperbyte> See the SCREEN_* options
10:20	And see the file /opt/ltsp/i386/usr/share/ltsp/screen.d/menu
10:21	The 'menu' value isn't listed on the manpage by the way, but basically any script inside /opt/ltsp/i386/usr/share/ltsp/screen.d/ can be used
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10:57	<junkY_San> thanks!
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11:16	<junkY_San> Hyperbyte, it works :)
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12:11	<Hyperbyte> junkY_San, good! :)
12:11	So now you don't need network GRUB and TFTP seperate from main LTSP server anymore? :)
12:13	Nor static IP's?
12:14	This should make your configuration a whole lot simpler.
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12:36	<TheProf> Good day Hyperbyte - remember my weird problem with the 'init: plymouth main process killed by ABRT' and the nbd0 errors? I finally noticed a pattern. It seems to crash depending on how I created the user account
12:39	If I created them with the gnome-user-admin program the account crashes with these erratic errors. If I delete the account and recreate them with webmin, it seems to work fine.
12:39	I don't really understand how this can be since I thought the errors were indicating a network issue (squashfs errors, etc.) but so far by deleting and recreating the accounts it seems to be solving it.
12:40	<Hyperbyte> You said it also happens before login. This would make your supposed pattern null and void.
12:41	<TheProf> Hyperbyte, you are correct - sometimes the computer would just flip from the login prompt to that screen of errors. I'm trying to see if the pattern is that one of those 'faulty' accounts was using that machine prior to it flipping.
12:41	I agree with you it doesn't really hold up but I don't see anything else yet.
12:42	<Hyperbyte> Well it could be related.
12:42	Take a look at /etc/passwd
12:42	- don't modify anything in there! You could break your entire system.
12:43	See what's different about the Gnome created accounts and the Webmin created accounts.
12:43	Different shell maybe? Different place for home directory? Different user ID range?
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12:44	<nosedrum> i'm back
12:44	alskig not here
12:44	. . .
12:44	i have a ltsp-build-client crash
12:45	how can i re build it
12:45	<Hyperbyte> If it crashes, and you restart the process without fixing the problem, there's a good chance it'll just crash again.
12:47	<TheProf> Hyperbyte, as far as I can tell they are all similar. I can only maybe see an issue where the GID overlaps with the UID on the older accounts but that might not even be correct.
12:47	Let's ask a different question: how do you create users on your LTSP server?
12:48	<Hyperbyte> They're different ID's, they can't overlap.
12:48	Well, me personally, add them to my 389 Directory Server. :)
12:48	They'll get syncronised to my off-site servers and my LTSP server just logs into the local DS to fetch user info
12:49	In general, for local user databases, I'd just use the 'useradd' command
12:49	<TheProf> Ah 389 - that's the next level :)
12:50	<Hyperbyte> But really, it shouldn't matter -how- you create users
12:50	<TheProf> will useradd do things like create the 'documents' and 'photos' directories within their /home?
12:50	<Hyperbyte> No, none of the user add tools should do that.
12:50	It's some Gnome does on first login.
12:50	*something
12:50	<nosedrum> http://outcat-cs.tecdoc.net/
12:50	...
12:50	sorry
12:50	<Hyperbyte> I doubt Webmin or Gnome user add functions do that.
12:51	nosedrum, service packs are now available!
12:51	Apparently they solve error 14 and error 35.
12:51	Personally if I ever released a service pack for my software I'd just fix error 0 to 65535 while I'm at it.
12:52	Or at least everything below 1000.
12:52	TheProf, but it shouldn't matter how you add user accounts. LTSP uses SSH to log in and maintain connection to the server.
12:53	<nosedrum> Hyperbyte: for my build-client crash here the messages:
12:53	dpkg : avertissement : « start-stop-daemon » introuvable dans la variable PATH.
12:53	dpkg: 1 programme(s) attendu(s) introuvable(s) dans la variable PATH.
12:53	NB : la variable PATH du superutilisateur doit normalement contenir /usr/local/sbin, /usr/sbin et /sbin.
12:53	E: Sub-process /usr/bin/dpkg returned an error code (2)
12:53	erreur : l'installation du client LTSP a échoué.
12:53	<Hyperbyte> As long as SSH can log in, the work is done. After that it's all pretty much straightforward, user-account wise.
12:53	<TheProf> Hyperbyte, ah that clarifies it for me. Gnome-add-user won't even load properly for me after the first few users so I'll stick with webmin.
12:53	<Hyperbyte> Holy heck, nosedrum!
12:53	!pastebin > nosedrum
12:53	<ltsp> Hyperbyte: Error: "pastebin" is not a valid command.
12:53	<nosedrum> soory
12:53	<Hyperbyte> !pastebin
12:53	<ltsp> Hyperbyte: pastebin: the LTSP pastebin is at http://ltsp.pastebin.com. Please paste all text longer than a line or two to the pastebin, as it helps to reduce traffic in the channel. Don't forget to paste the URL of the text here.
12:53	<Hyperbyte> TheProf, I don't think that'll solve your problem.
12:53	But we'll see.
12:54	<TheProf> Hyperbyte, I'm also going to be swapping out network cables and testing the network as you recommended.
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12:58	<mgariepy> good morning everyone
12:58	<alkisg> Hi mgariepy
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13:00	<nosedrum> Can i rsync a /opt/ltsp/i386 from another same working server ?
13:01	<alkisg> Sure, but remember that you need root in both machines
13:01	<nosedrum> alkisg !!!
13:01	:)
13:01	remmeber this morning ?
13:01	<alkisg> :D
13:02	<nosedrum> LTSP server is 10.4.3
13:02	and i do the build-client
13:02	<alkisg> Yeah, but I didn't get how you managed to break the whole chroot from that :D
13:02	Ah, you updated from 9.10 to 10.04?
13:02	Good, yes, you needed a new chroot then
13:02	And what went wrong?
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13:03	<alkisg> !nbd-proxy \| echo TheProf:
13:03	<ltsp> TheProf: nbd-proxy: Ubuntu 10.04 and 10.10 use a wrapper called nbd-proxy, which is causing networking problems for some people. See https://bugs.launchpad.net/ltsp/+bug/589034. It's been disabled by default in 11.04, see http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ltsp-upstream/ltsp/ltsp-trunk/revision/1803
13:03	<alkisg> It might be related to your problem. Or maybe not. But it won't hurt checking.
13:03	<nosedrum> but crashing in a
13:03	http://pastebin.com/gunTbh2b
13:03	<alkisg> dpkg : avertissement : « start-stop-daemon » introuvable dans la variable PATH.
13:03	What does this mean?
13:04	<nosedrum> dpkg: warning: « start-stop-daemon » not found in PATH
13:04	<alkisg> Hm... and you're sure you don't have other errors before that?
13:05	<TheProf> alkisg, thanks for the link. I'm using 11.04 so I believe it is already disabled.
13:05	<nosedrum> no errors before
13:05	<alkisg> TheProf: probably, yeah. Then you can stress-test your network with netperf/iperf etc
13:06	nosedrum: with what command line did you run ltsp-build-client?
13:06	<nosedrum> before there is just downloading
13:06	<TheProf> alkisg, OK. I guess it's just a coincidence that different users are experiencing or not experiencing it. argh :)
13:06	<nosedrum> rm -rf /opt/ltsp
13:06	ltsp-build-client --arch i386
13:06	<alkisg> TheProf: if I understood you correctly, you had problem before login too. So as Hyperbyte said, user accounts don't even exist at that point.
13:07	nosedrum: and how did you become root? sudo su?
13:07	<nosedrum> yes for sure !
13:08	<alkisg> sudo su is the wrong way to become root
13:08	Are you sure you did exactly that command?
13:08	<nosedrum> not with sudo su
13:08	<TheProf> alkisg, I know you and Hyperbyte are probably correct, just wished it was that easy of a fix!
13:08	<nosedrum> logged in root
13:08	<alkisg> You have set a root password, and logged in as root?
13:08	<nosedrum> from a server ssh root@<ip>
13:09	<alkisg> OK. Do that again, and run: echo $PATH
13:09	<nosedrum> yes logged as root with login/pass
13:09	<alkisg> So that we see the PATH that your root account has
13:09	<nosedrum> root@ltsp_a06:~# echo $PATH
13:09	/usr/local/sbin:/usr/local/bin:/usr/sbin:/usr/bin:/sbin:/bin:/usr/games
13:09	<Hyperbyte> TheProf, it could not be a coincidence that different users experience the problem.
13:09	TheProf, I assume everyone has assigned workplaces in your organisation.
13:10	Which means the same users, will be using the same terminals and same network connections everytime.
13:10	<TheProf> the specific error is the screen switches to console all of a sudden and you see [4948.404963] squashfs_read_data failed to read block 198342; [more.numbers] unable to read metadata cache entry; [more.numbers]unable to read block
13:10	Hyperbyte, no interestingly the problem followed one user around from terminal to terminal.
13:10	<alkisg> nosedrum: it looks ok. Do you have /opt/ltsp/i386/sbin/start-stop-daemon ?
13:10	<Hyperbyte> TheProf, could still be two terminals having this problem.
13:10	<nosedrum> root@ltsp_a06:~# ls -altr /opt/ltsp/i386/sbin/start-stop-daemon
13:10	-rw-r--r-- 1 root root 174 2011-09-14 14:02 /opt/ltsp/i386/sbin/start-stop-daemon
13:10	yes i have
13:10	<alkisg> Not executable though
13:10	<nosedrum> . . .
13:10	<TheProf> Hyperbyte, 4 terminals? :)
13:11	<Hyperbyte> Don't stare yourself blind on 'coincidences' while bug hunting. :) But the way to know, is to test.
13:11	<nosedrum> chmod +x ?
13:11	<alkisg> nosedrum: it won't help now, it's too late
13:11	<nosedrum> and built-client again ?
13:11	<TheProf> the common thing is they are all exact same hardware, plugged into the same switch.
13:11	<Hyperbyte> You could run a ping for an extended time, with very low interval.
13:11	ping -i 0.01 <client> from server
13:11	<alkisg> nosedrum: chroot /opt/ltsp/i386 dpkg -S start-stop-daemon
13:12	Pastebin the output
13:12	<TheProf> Hyperbyte, you are correct that i need to test. Do I need to be directly logged into the server?
13:12	<Hyperbyte> Then check back after a while and see if there's many packets lost.
13:12	<nosedrum> you have helped me so many times
13:12	i can blame you
13:12	can't *
13:12	<alkisg> nosedrum: no you didn't understand me
13:12	<Hyperbyte> TheProf, you need to test however you want. Not LTSP related. :)
13:12	<alkisg> I was talking about chmod, not about me
13:12	chmod won't help
13:12	<nosedrum> lol
13:12	<TheProf> OK
13:12	<nosedrum> alkisg never let me die ! :D
13:12	<alkisg> :)
13:13	<nosedrum> you are THE man !
13:13	<Hyperbyte> You can test from client to server, vice-versa, or test multiple clients at once, etc...
13:13	<nosedrum> so
13:13	<alkisg> (04:11:58 μμ) alkisg: nosedrum: chroot /opt/ltsp/i386 dpkg -S start-stop-daemon
13:13	(04:12:00 μμ) alkisg: Pastebin the output
13:13	<nosedrum> http://pastebin.com/9X16zN3L
13:14	<TheProf> Hyperbyte, I'll start with ping and then move to something like netperf
13:15	<alkisg> nosedrum: are you using some non-standard repository, which updated ltsp versions or similar?
13:15	<nosedrum> no
13:15	just made the official 10.4.3 LTS upgrade
13:15	wanna see my sources.list ?
13:15	<alkisg> nosedrum: ok, let's assume it was some rare race condition and that it won't happen again. Try ltsp-build-client again without changing anything.
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13:15	<nosedrum> not in chroot
13:16	<alkisg> If the "start-stop-daemon not executable" problem persists, we'll troubleshoot more
13:16	<nosedrum> i exit chroot right ?
13:16	<alkisg> Yes
13:16	<nosedrum> ok
13:16	<alkisg> And delete your existing chroot
13:16	And verify that you don't have anytihng mounted from your chroot
13:16	grep /opt/ltsp/i386 /proc/mounts
13:16	=> should be empty
13:16	<nosedrum> i have to rm -rf the /opt/ltsp i can't continu without re-downloading everything ?
13:16	mount
13:16	<alkisg> Wait
13:17	cp /opt/ltsp/i386/var/cache/apt/archives/*.deb /var/cache/apt/archives/
13:17	This will copy the package cache
13:17	Then run: ltsp-build-client --arch=i386 --mount-package-cache
13:17	<nosedrum> thx
13:17	<alkisg> This will make it a lot faster
13:18	<nosedrum> running !
13:18	wainting now
13:18	alkisg, just a personnal question
13:19	since how many time do you ltsp support ?
13:19	<Hyperbyte> alkisg has been with us since early 1993
13:19	<nosedrum> O M G
13:19	<alkisg> Hahaha
13:19	<nosedrum> mens , very happy you be there
13:19	<alkisg> No you got it wrong, it was 1939
13:19	Oh no, 1399
13:19	<nosedrum> xD
13:19	<Hyperbyte> No wait!
13:19	<alkisg> Hyperbyte's kidding
13:19	<Hyperbyte> -1399
13:20	<alkisg> I've only been using linux the last 3 years
13:20	<Hyperbyte> 1993 LTSP didn't exist. ;-)
13:20	alkisg was very ahead of his time.
13:20	<alkisg> Yeah LTSP without computers was very hard
13:20	<nosedrum> ^^
13:20	lol
13:20	<alkisg> We had to wait for years for the clients to boot :P
13:20	<Hyperbyte> Still, since LTSP didn't exist yet, the support for it was a lot easier too.
13:20	<nosedrum> ^^
13:21	<Hyperbyte> Back then we didn't have PXE and network images
13:21	We had a room full of Chinese people and we forced them to remember ones and zeroes.
13:21	<nosedrum> Actually you are better than google mens
13:21	<Hyperbyte> Back then we didn't have 'network errors', we had 'Chinese memory errors'
13:21	<nosedrum> erf....
13:21	.same issue
13:22	http://pastebin.com/cwisxtyu
13:22	<Hyperbyte> Mais non! C'est Francais!
13:22	<nosedrum> the message appears just after the listing of packeges installation
13:22	oui c'est du français
13:22	désolé
13:23	<alkisg> nosedrum: chroot /opt/ltsp/i386 apt-cache policy ltsp-client
13:23	<Hyperbyte> Tres bien! Fantastique!
13:23	<nosedrum> http://pastebin.com/5CQmg5Ym
13:23	<Hyperbyte> I only parle un peut Francais, by the way. :P
13:24	<nosedrum> Votre Français est déjà très compréhensible.
13:24	<Hyperbyte> Yeah, I was about to say that too.
13:24	<nosedrum> ^^
13:24	<Hyperbyte> So are you from France or Canada? ;-)
13:24	<nosedrum> France
13:25	it's 3.24 pm
13:26	<alkisg> nosedrum: I'm not sure why that happens. Let try a workaround: open another terminal, and run this command:
13:26	while true; do chmod +x /opt/ltsp/i386/sbin/start-stop-daemon; sleep 1; done
13:26	Then in your original terminal run ltsp-build-client again
13:27	<nosedrum> ok
13:27	running....
13:27	you think /opt/ltsp/i386/sbin/start-stop-daemon loose it's executable bit by magic ?
13:27	<TheProf> Hyperbyte, just flooded that specific computer causing problems with ping for a while - not a single dropped packet. weird
13:27	<alkisg> By ltsp-client, it runs dpkg-divert
13:28	But it shouldn't lose it's executable mode
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13:30	<nosedrum> -____-
13:30	exactly the same message
13:31	<alkisg> Don't stop the script from running
13:31	<Hyperbyte> nosedrum, I know what time it is in France thankyou. :P
13:31	<alkisg> And try ls -l /opt/ltsp/i386/sbin/start-stop-daemon
13:31	<nosedrum> the loop still running
13:31	<alkisg> Does it have the executable bit?
13:31	<Hyperbyte> <- Les Pays-Bas :)
13:32	<nosedrum> root@ltsp_a06:~# ls -l /opt/ltsp/i386/sbin/start-stop-daemon
13:32	-rw-r--r-- 1 root root 174 2011-09-14 15:28 /opt/ltsp/i386/sbin/start-stop-daemon
13:32	root@ltsp_a06:~# ls -l /opt/ltsp/i386/sbin/start-stop-daemon
13:32	-rw-r--r-- 1 root root 174 2011-09-14 15:28 /opt/ltsp/i386/sbin/start-stop-daemon
13:32	root@ltsp_a06:~# ls -l /opt/ltsp/i386/sbin/start-stop-daemon
13:32	-rw-r--r-- 1 root root 174 2011-09-14 15:28 /opt/ltsp/i386/sbin/start-stop-daemon
13:32	root@ltsp_a06:~# ls -l /opt/ltsp/i386/sbin/start-stop-daemon
13:32	-rw-r--r-- 1 root root 174 2011-09-14 15:28 /opt/ltsp/i386/sbin/start-stop-daemon
13:32	root@ltsp_a06:~# ls -l /opt/ltsp/i386/sbin/start-stop-daemon
13:32	-rw-r--r-- 1 root root 174 2011-09-14 15:28 /opt/ltsp/i386/sbin/start-stop-daemon
13:32	<alkisg> nosedrum: hey, once is enough :)
13:32	<nosedrum> sorry
13:32	pasbin miss ><
13:32	<alkisg> So, the script didn't work. Why?
13:32	Do you see any errors in its output?
13:32	<nosedrum> no
13:32	at the beginning have error message because i have rm -rf the i386 directory
13:33	but at starting of bult-*client no more message
13:33	<alkisg> OK, but now it should work
13:33	<nosedrum> yes
13:33	<alkisg> And it doesn't work. What exactly did you run?
13:33	<nosedrum> try manually
13:33	<alkisg> No
13:33	Doing it manually now won't help us
13:33	Did you run this as root? while true; do chmod +x /opt/ltsp/i386/sbin/start-stop-daemon; sleep 1; done
13:33	<nosedrum> i do a chmod 777 => worwing
13:33	+x not working
13:34	<alkisg> ???!!!
13:34	<nosedrum> i rego with chmod 777
13:34	<alkisg> Wait wait wait
13:34	<nosedrum> ok wait
13:34	<alkisg> Do chmod 644
13:34	then chmod +x
13:34	then ls
13:34	=> chmod +x is not working?!
13:34	<nosedrum> lol
13:35	this is very bizarre !
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13:35	<alkisg> That's why you're having the problem then, because chmod doesn't work
13:35	<nosedrum> see that
13:35	http://pastebin.com/5j2b8iP5
13:36	going for a chmod 777 loop ?
13:36	<alkisg> No, having such a problem in your server is more serious than ltsp not getting installed
13:36	You'll get the chmod problem later on too
13:36	What file system are you using?
13:36	<nosedrum> ext3
13:37	<alkisg> OK, go with chmod 755 until we think of something better
13:37	But you really need to solve that problem
13:38	You'll get a lot of other errors in the future and you won't know they are caused by chmod not working
13:38	<nosedrum> i understand
13:38	but now the first thing is to say the users "go you can work"
13:39	ltsp-build-client --arch=i386 --mount-package-cache => GO
13:39	with chmod 755 loop behind
13:39	during this time
13:39	<alkisg> Once it passed that point, you can stop the loop
13:40	<nosedrum> ok
13:40	<alkisg> But it's very important to fix the chmod problem
13:40	And it's more weird that you have it both on the server and on your chroot
13:40	<nosedrum> on other server we have firefox who say still running and kill -kill the firefox PID don't work
13:40	see anything ?
13:40	<alkisg> kill -9 firefox-bin
13:40	<nosedrum> already do
13:40	but no way firefox say still running
13:40	<alkisg> And it wasn't killed with -9 ?
13:41	<nosedrum> killed
13:41	but a sleep 3 still running
13:41	and can't kill it
13:42	IT's MAGIC !
13:42	crucial step passed !
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14:57	<nosedrum> i'm back !
14:57	(oh no, him again, keep out ! )
14:57	little question
14:57	what is the process how rewrite the local /etc/hosts on clients ??
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15:05	<Hyperbyte> nosedrum, what exactly are you trying to do?
15:06	<nosedrum> on ltsp client
15:06	the /etc/hosts file is generated at boot right ?
15:06	<Hyperbyte> Let me ask it a different way
15:06	Why are you trying to do what you are trying to do?
15:06	What's your ultimate goal/problem?
15:06	<nosedrum> i have to pur a ip addres and host in /etc/hosts local file on client
15:06	<Hyperbyte> Why?
15:07	<nosedrum> because a ltsp-localapps java application connect to a server
15:07	why hostname
15:07	and can't put it on dns
15:07	so /etc/hosts is my way
15:07	why = with
15:07	*
15:08	<Hyperbyte> Putting it in DNS would be the best solution though
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15:08	<nosedrum> i know pu forget that
15:08	but*
15:08	<jammcq> hey friends
15:08	<Hyperbyte> Hey jammcq :)
15:08	<nosedrum> i have to wrote it in /etc/hosts
15:08	<Hyperbyte> nosedrum, I can't help you with the /etc/hosts. Someone else probably will help you out.
15:09	<nosedrum> ok
15:12	for someone who read: before with use a script to rewrite the /etc/hosts file but now in rc.local or rc*.d the script don't execute...
15:15	<jammcq> bbiab
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15:22	<abeehc> you can define such an rc file in lts.conf have you tried that RCFILE_01=
15:26	<nosedrum> i have error failed to connect to nbd server
15:26	........
15:31	dpkg-reconfigure nbd-server
15:32	number of nbd instance to run ?
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15:41	<nosedrum> but when client boot, ther is busy box with : failed to connect to nbd server
15:41	but i have tcp 0 0 0.0.0.0:2000 0.0.0.0:* LISTEN 231
15:41	2/inetd
15:45	WTF i didn't have ltsp-update-image anymore
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15:54	<nosedrum> the remove of xinetd remove ltsp...
15:54	i redo a ltsp-server-standalone
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15:58	<nosedrum> nbd_server[1820]: Could not open exported file /opt/ltsp/images/i386.img: Permission denied
15:58	....
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16:22	<MagicBelly> Hello!
16:23	what would be a good approach to give access to an LTSP session from a remote location, as in the same user who uses ltsp at work/school can access the same environment from home?
16:23	nomachine?
16:23	straight vnc client?
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16:41	<MagicBelly> pedronveloso: o/
16:41	<pedronveloso> MagicBelly, haha.. magic belly :P
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16:43	<pedronveloso> I0m having trouble with a computer, it shows the login screen but when I try to login it validates and the screen flashes and I'm back to the login screen. anyone has a guess on what might be wrong?
16:43	to give context, the login it's working on other machines, and other machines (different hardware) are working on this LTSP installation
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17:01	<pedronveloso> sorry, my connection dropped
17:01	did someone reply to me?
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17:10	<MagicBelly> pedronveloso: no
17:12	<pedronveloso> so this is a fujitsu latptop, and I have to pass a XCONF in the lts.conf for it to have a proper resolution. the resolution is alright, but it never logs in. sometimes I can even hear the ubuntu sound,, but then it falls back to the login screen again :\
17:21	<alkisg> MagicBelly: freenx or neatx-server are good for remote users
17:21	<MagicBelly> alkisg: o/ long time no talk
17:21	(Gnoze5 here)
17:21	<alkisg> o/
17:22	<MagicBelly> neatx is a bit limited still no?
17:22	no sound suppport and such
17:22	<alkisg> Yes
17:22	<MagicBelly> at least last time i checked
17:23	and freenx has a concurrent connection limit
17:23	<alkisg> You probably mean nomachine there
17:23	I haven't heard about connection limits with freenx
17:23	<MagicBelly> hm freenx is just an open/free version of nomachine then i assume
17:23	without support..
17:24	<alkisg> Yes, like neatx
17:25	<MagicBelly> nomachine has a web plugin, thats a nice solution
17:25	whats your experience with freenx performance?
17:26	<alkisg> I'm using neatx, it's fine
17:27	You can work over ADSL without getting frustrated
17:27	<pedronveloso> sorry to interrupt, but I've done a "cat" to .xsession-errors and this is what I got, if someone have a clue please let me know : http://pastebin.com/1pu1dxGf
17:27	<alkisg> !compiz \| echo pedronveloso:
17:27	<ltsp> pedronveloso: compiz: the default window manager in gnome is gnome-wm, which automatically chooses compiz if it thinks that the card supports it. Compiz is causing login problems to some clients (LP #673072). To disable it, see !disable_compiz. To restore it, see !restore_compiz
17:28	<pedronveloso> !disable_coompiz
17:28	<ltsp> pedronveloso: I do not know about 'disable_coompiz', but I do know about these similar topics: 'disable-compiz'
17:28	<pedronveloso> !disable_compiz
17:28	<ltsp> pedronveloso: disable_compiz: To disable compiz for all users, run: sudo gconftool-2 --direct --config-source xml:readwrite:/etc/gconf/gconf.xml.mandatory --type string --set /desktop/gnome/session/required_components/windowmanager metacity
17:29	<pedronveloso> alkisg, thanks, will try
17:30	<MagicBelly> alkisg: hm my idea is to give a few "special" users access from home to their ltsp env.
17:30	im assuming nx does a good job at keep bandwidth usage to a minimum
17:30	*keeping
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17:31	<MagicBelly> what about copy/paste from the nx client session to the local os? or some sort of share access?
17:32	<alkisg> You mean file transfer?
17:32	<MagicBelly> yep
17:32	<alkisg> I think nomachine supports that; read their site
17:33	...we're completely out of topic for this channel :)
17:34	<MagicBelly> yeah we are lol sorry
17:34	im just concerned with the whole ltsp/nx integration
17:34	but im sure its perfectly doable
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17:38	<alkisg> There's nothing to integrate, they're completely different services
17:39	<pedronveloso> alkisg, metacity solved it. thank you very much.. I'm still thinking fujitsu sucks :P
17:39	<alkisg> Nah, that's compiz that sucks
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17:45	<pedronveloso> well, compiz works well everywhere else :P
17:46	but considering that no productivity is lost, and I didn't had effects on anyway, the diference to the users is none when switching to metacity
17:46	cool trick :D
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18:48	<Hyperbyte> Gadi!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
18:48	<Gadi> now, there's a warm welcome
18:48	:)
18:48	any beer left?
18:49	<Hyperbyte> !beer
18:49	<ltsp> Hyperbyte: I do not know about 'beer', but I do know about these similar topics: 'bts'
18:49	<Hyperbyte> :(
18:49	<Gadi> huh - same thing
18:49	:)
18:49	<Hyperbyte> Haha
18:49	<Gadi> in fact...
18:49	!bts
18:49	<ltsp> Gadi: bts: LTSP By The Sea 2009: http://wiki.ltsp.org/twiki/bin/view/Ltsp/ByTheSea2009
18:49	<Hyperbyte> !forget bts
18:49	<ltsp> Hyperbyte: The operation succeeded.
18:49	<Gadi> ah - I was expecting beer in the description
18:49	<Hyperbyte> 2009? :\
18:49	<garymc> Hi peeps
18:50	<Hyperbyte> !learn BTS as LTSP By The Sea 2011: Oct 27 - 30, 2011 - Southwest Harbor, Maine http://sourceforge.net/apps/mediawiki/ltsp/index.php?title=Ltsp_ByTheSea2011
18:50	<ltsp> Hyperbyte: The operation succeeded.
18:51	* Gadi sees that ltsp bot has been getting the proper lovin
18:51	<Hyperbyte> Hey garymc.
18:51	We try. :)
18:51	!Gadi
18:51	<ltsp> Hyperbyte: Error: "Gadi" is not a valid command.
18:51	<Hyperbyte> !g
18:51	<ltsp> Hyperbyte: g: Gadi!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
18:51	<Hyperbyte> :D
18:51	<Gadi> heh
18:51	that one predates "bts"
18:51	:)
18:52	<Hyperbyte> Yeah, because I just taught it about BTS 2011 one minute ago. :P
18:52	But there's lots of new and recent stuff in there though
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18:52	<Hyperbyte> I'm sure jammcq brought some beer for us.
18:53	* jammcq has plenty
18:53	<Hyperbyte> :D
18:53	<garymc> Hey Hyper you think this will make all my clients use chrmoium as default?
18:53	gconftool-2 -t string /desktop/gnome/url-handlers/http/command -s 'chromium-browser "%s"'
18:54	or will it just break it?
18:54	<Hyperbyte> garymc, definitely not. You'd need to set it in the mandatory config
18:54	And run as sudo
18:54	But I have no idea if that's the correct setting
18:54	You could try that command as-in for one user, see if it works
18:54	And if it works, put 'sudo' in front and add switch to apply to mandatory config
18:55	<alkisg> Mandatory settings for gconf aren't set like this
18:55	But with --direct etc, like this:
18:55	!disable-compiz
18:55	<ltsp> alkisg: disable-compiz: To disable compiz for all users, run: sudo gconftool-2 --direct --config-source xml:readwrite:/etc/gconf/gconf.xml.mandatory --type string --set /desktop/gnome/session/required_components/windowmanager metacity
18:55	<alkisg> And, that should be done in the fat chroot
18:55	<Hyperbyte> That one, yeah.
18:56	But test it first with one user. =)
18:57	<garymc> :S
19:05	<Gadi> jammcq: can you add me to that wiki page?
19:05	or give me privs
19:05	:)
19:07	<alkisg> Yey! I won't need to hitchhike to bts! :D
19:11	<garymc> what if i uninstall firefox?
19:11	<alkisg> garymc: did you manage to get help in #ubuntu about that?
19:11	Or in mailing lists, or in google, or in forums, etc etc?
19:12	<garymc> no just that command i showed you then
19:14	<alkisg> OK, so, you need to run that command in your chroot:
19:14	gconftool-2 --direct --config-source xml:readwrite:/etc/gconf/gconf.xml.mandatory --type string --set /desktop/gnome/url-handlers/http/command 'chromium-browser "%s"'
19:14	* Gadi pictures alkisg and Fozzie Bear on the side of I-95 :)
19:15	<alkisg> Fozzie bear? Wow! I'll bring Kermit!
19:16	<Gadi> whew. For a minute I thought the cultural reference would be lost on the Greeks
19:16	:)
19:18	<jammcq> Gadi: You arriving/departing the 27/30 ?
19:18	* alkisg had to google the I-95 part :D
19:18	<jammcq> alkisg: if you are going from NYC to SW Harbor, you'll get to know I-95
19:19	alkisg: how are you getting there?
19:19	<alkisg> I'm hoping that Fozzie bear will get me on his knees
19:19	Or the other way around
19:20	<jammcq> !seen cliebow
19:20	<ltsp> jammcq: cliebow was last seen in #ltsp 3 weeks, 1 day, 0 hours, 10 minutes, and 39 seconds ago: <cliebow> going to paint the porch...
19:20	<alkisg> That porch seems to need a lot of paint
19:20	<jammcq> hmm, I don't remember his porch being all that big
19:21	<alkisg> jammcq: Gadi said he'll give me a lift, if he can make it to BTS... that's why I was glad to hear he'll make it :)
19:21	<jammcq> well... now he's on the hook
19:22	I've added him to the wiki page, so it's official
19:22	<alkisg> !bts
19:22	<ltsp> alkisg: bts: LTSP By The Sea 2011: Oct 27 - 30, 2011 - Southwest Harbor, Maine http://sourceforge.net/apps/mediawiki/ltsp/index.php?title=Ltsp_ByTheSea2011
19:23	<Gadi> yay!
19:24	alkisg: it is a rather long drive, so bring some good humor
19:24	:)
19:24	but, maybe I can get the Muppets' tape
19:24	and we can play "Movin' right along..."
19:24	<alkisg> I'll try - but I'll bring along some tsipouro it my humor fails me (now you google :P)
19:24	<Gadi> yes, I said tape - Im old
19:24	:P
19:25	<alkisg> Hey, I'm planning to buy an mp3 to cassette converter in NYC
19:25	Hope you still have those available there
19:25	<Gadi> hmm... novelty shop
19:25	:)
19:26	<Hyperbyte> alkisg and Gadi, you could listen to Skeptics Guide to the Universe during the long drive. :P
19:26	When I went to Norway my friend used to listen to it in the car, it's pretty interesting show. :-D
19:27	<alkisg> Or we could tape & play some of your broadcasts ;)
19:28	<Hyperbyte> Top 30? :P
19:28	<garymc> alkisg : will that defo not break my system in any way?
19:28	<alkisg> garymc: that will definately break your system
19:28	:D
19:28	Didn't Hyperbyte tell you how easy it is to backup /opt/ltsp ?
19:29	A single command, gives you peace of mind
19:29	sudo rsync -a /opt/ltsp/ /opt/ltsp.backup
19:29	And when you break your chroot, you just move it back
19:30	<abeehc> Hyperbyte: great show good call
19:32	<Hyperbyte> abeehc, yeah huh? SGU is really good stuff. Bit hard to listen to at work though, so I don't catch enough of it :(
19:35	<abeehc> yeah i normaly listen at night in bed but we did take a few episodes on the road and it worked well
19:35	<garymc> i need to fid my notes
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19:36	<garymc> alkisg : so that will break it or you just jesting?
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19:45	<alkisg> garymc: I gave you that command with the intention of fixing your default browser problem, not to break your system...
19:48	<garymc> phew
19:49	right get into chroot
19:50	sudo sudo ltsp-chroot
19:50	?
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19:50	<garymc> sorry : sudo ltsp-chroot
19:51	then make a backup? or before going into chroot
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19:55	<alkisg> garymc: the backup should be done outside of your chroot
19:55	<garymc> ok
19:55	<alkisg> sudo rsync /opt/ltsp/ /opt/ltsp.backup/
19:56	That's all there is to it. Be sure to have enough free space on your disk.
19:58	*I forgot the -a, it's : rsync -a ...
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20:01	<garymc> do i need the apostrophe at the end of this command? sudo rsync /opt/ltsp/ /opt/ltsp.backup/
20:01	whoops
20:01	gconftool-2 --direct --config-source xml:readwrite:/etc/gconf/gconf.xml.mandatory --type string --set /desktop/gnome/url-handlers/http/command 'chromium-browser "%s"
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20:02	<garymc> there was an apostrophe on your one further up alkisg
20:02	that backup is taking a while
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20:03	<garymc> test
20:03	anyone here?
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20:04	<alkisg> garymc: I had two apostrophes:
20:04	gconftool-2 --direct --config-source xml:readwrite:/etc/gconf/gconf.xml.mandatory --type string --set /desktop/gnome/url-handlers/http/command 'chromium-browser "%s"'
20:04	<garymc> testing anyone here?
20:04	ok so thats the correct one?
20:04	how big is LTSP normaly?
20:04	<alkisg> Yes, it's the only one I gave with gconftool-2
20:05	<garymc> ok
20:05	still backing up
20:05	<alkisg> du -sh /opt/ltsp => will tell you how big it is
20:05	<garymc> was I supposed to use th => bit?
20:05	cos I never
20:06	<alkisg> No, just this: du -sh /opt/ltsp
20:06	<garymc> 5.1gb
20:06	ok
20:06	so chroot and your command
20:06	do i need to update image?
20:06	<alkisg> Did the backup finish?
20:06	!ltsp-update-image
20:06	<ltsp> alkisg: ltsp-update-image: If you use NBD (e.g. Ubuntu), every time you change something in your chroot (e.g. /opt/ltsp/i386), you need to run ltsp-update-image and reboot the thin clients for the changes to take effect
20:08	<garymc> sorry do I update image outside chroot
20:08	<Lns> Nothing against those who use NBD, but I'm so glad I don't have to rebuild my chroot anymore after making little changes here and there (or even log out) ;)
20:09	<garymc> so I just move backup back to ltsp and update image if it breaks?
20:12	<Hyperbyte> You copied the image file along with the backup probably
20:12	So it shouldn't be needed, but won't hurt either.
20:13	<garymc> ok
20:13	fingers crossed for the morning as i wont know until then
20:14	<alkisg> Lns: indeed nfs is handy, but compressed nbd=5 times faster, so... :-/
20:14	For fat clients it's almost necessary
20:15	<garymc> thanks again for the help guys, been up since 3:30am with the baby so im knackered, need some shut eye right now. Thanks speak to you tomorw, let you know if it works or not
20:15	night night
20:15	<Lns> alkisg: Oh I'm sure =) I'm not running on big networks anymore, just 1-2 max..but i can watch flash fullscreen yt which is pretty amazing!
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20:15	<alkisg> Good night
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21:00	<_cb> I have a citrix background and have been reading a bit about LTSP and no machine but don't have a good grasp of the deltas between Citrix/ LTSP or NoMachine. Can anyone educate me on the subject?
21:01	<talntid> Citrix and LTSP are quite different
21:01	I am not familiar with NoMachine
21:03	<_cb> No Machine is, supposedly, LTSP on steroids. (I think they use and contribute to LTSP) http://nomachine.com/
21:03	<talntid> I did google them, just not familiar with it at this point :)
21:04	<_cb> Ok with LTSP I can display, via thin client, any application running on the server. Right?
21:04	<talntid> right. lets step back and examine how LTSP, and X server work
21:04	do you know how X11 works?
21:04	<_cb> Not in depth.
21:04	<talntid> It is a client/server environment..
21:05	xserver runs on the server, and that is what applications interface with
21:05	<jammcq> xserver runs on the thin client
21:05	<talntid> no, the x client does. the xserver runs on the server
21:05	<jammcq> it serves up the display, keyboard and mouse to "client applications" which run on the Linux server
21:06	<_cb> Ok that is a lot like Citrix.
21:06	<talntid> in a normal.. (lets say Ubuntu) situation..
21:06	<jammcq> the Xserver runs wherever the video card, keyboard and mouse are physically plugged in
21:06	<talntid> the server and client are on the same machine.
21:06	<jammcq> true
21:06	<talntid> LTSP just seperates their roles, over a network, really.
21:06	<_cb> Ok that is a lot like Citrix.
21:06	<talntid> the thin client boots, and loads a very minimal image - just enough to connect to the X applications on the server...
21:07	the processing itself goes on on the server... but the display is on the thin client, over sockets..
21:07	<jammcq> basically, a kernel and an Xserver
21:07	but now, i'll go back and hide under my rock
21:07	<talntid> the actual window rendering and such, goes on on the thin client...
21:08	so as not to display lag and choppyness
21:08	and also you can run some apps locally, on the thin clients hardware, if necessary..
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21:08	<talntid> (ex. streaming video/flash, audio, VNC server)
21:08	<_cb> So that part is almost identical to Citrix. In Citrix the application runs in the server. Client display, handles keyboard, sound,etc,etc
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21:09	<_cb> The methodology used may be different but the functionality is the same.
21:10	<talntid> right
21:10	<_cb> Ok assume that, like in Citrix, the application has to be installed in the server. Ie to run Open Office via LTSP then Open Office has to be installed on the server
21:10	<talntid> any specific questions about how LTSP works in regards to certain features? I'm not versed in Citrix enough to know the differences
21:10	yes, openoffice needs to be installed on the server
21:11	<_cb> So if I have gnome installed then the only thing the thin client can get is gnome. (no KDE) and I must have a gui for the client to get a gui, right? (Windows does not have the option of no gui or multiple guis)
21:12	<talntid> correct, you must have a GUI for it to be able to display
21:13	gnome, kde, icewm, etc... hundreds to choose from
21:13	<jammcq> no, Gnome is on the server, but really, it's just like any other client application. it will display on the thin client
21:13	<_cb> Wow thanks. That clears a point of confusion for me.
21:13	<jammcq> maybe that's what you were already saying
21:13	<talntid> if you install multiple GUI's, gnome, kde, etc..
21:13	you can choose which one to use on login
21:14	<_cb> Oh wow. Cool. I didn't even think of that.
21:14	<talntid> i have a call center, and some of my agents use a windows-look-alike gnome session..
21:14	some use KDE, others use normal gnome
21:14	just depends on what each person wants
21:14	<_cb> And if User A logs in they get their desktop, if User B logs in they get their desktop. Right?
21:15	<talntid> correct. there are a LOT of different ways you can configure that...
21:15	but most popular, is that each user has a homedir, and their configs are stored in there...
21:15	so as they login, it loads their configs from there
21:16	<_cb> Do you always get the desktop or can you just launch an app? (ie in Citrix I can launch MS office from one Server and Outlook from another)
21:17	<talntid> even though in citrix you can just launch an app, it really is launching the desktop too...
21:17	it just doesn't load explorer.exe
21:18	<_cb> Yeah but it hides it from the user so as a user you only see explorer.exe
21:18	<alkisg> If you use LTSP to boot fat clients, then you can use LTSP_REMOTEAPPS to only launch one app from the server
21:18	<talntid> if you press alt+f2, and type in "explorer.exe" you will get the start meny and all...
21:18	<alkisg> That's similar to cytrix
21:18	<talntid> so, to answer your question, yes, you can launch just an app... in the same fashion as citrix.. but it's not really JUST launching the app...
21:19	<_cb> On low bandwidth fat client would not work but no problem not a huge deal. Terminal Servers in Windows also launch only the desktop
21:20	<alkisg> Fat clients need much less bandwidth than thin clients
21:20	*ltsp fat clients, that is
21:20	Those are diskless
21:20	<_cb> Oh, why. The whole client has to travel from the server to the client. Right?
21:21	<talntid> nah, on fat clients, the programs are run client-side
21:21	<alkisg> No, they use the server as a network disk, and they only read the needed "sectors" each time
21:22	<_cb> Oh, I used the wrong terminology. I meant streaming the app from the server to the client would take more bandwidth
21:22	Can you load balance the servers?
21:22	<talntid> yes
21:23	<_cb> Round Robin or can it be balanced based on CPU utilization, memory utilization,etc,etc.
21:23	<talntid> round robin is easy to do
21:23	but as for cpu/memory/etc, I am not sure
21:24	I know it can be done
21:24	<alkisg> ldminfod is an ltsp daemon that provides cpu/mem info etc
21:24	<_cb> Ok that is what terminal servers do too.
21:24	<talntid> https://www.ltsp-cluster.org/tour#_Benefits_of_LTSP_Cluster_
21:24	<alkisg> So yeah balancing with those is easy too
21:24	<_cb> Excellent
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21:25	<_cb> Can a session be moved from Server A to Server B without disrupting the user?
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21:26	<alkisg> No
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21:27	<_cb> Ok no big deal either.
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21:28	<talntid> can it in Citrix?
21:29	<_cb> Never got it to work too well.
21:29	Citrix works in an Active Directory environment so I understand how, for purposes of balancing, it does not matter if User A connects to Server 1 or Server 2. How does that work in Linux, aren't the home dir and settings stored on each server?
21:29	<talntid> ah
21:29	_cb, you would want to store the homedirs on a shared storage medium
21:29	<alkisg> What does active directory have to do with load balancing?!
21:29	<talntid> I have LTSP1, LTSP2, FS1, FS2
21:30	my LTSP servers load balance via round robin..
21:30	and FS1/FS2 are exact copies of eachother, using DRBD (think of it as raid1 over ethernet)
21:30	the users login using LDAP, which is another server for me, called LDAP1
21:30	<_cb> Duh. Never thought of that (storing settings on shared storage medium)
21:31	<talntid> LTSP1 and LTSP2 are configured to authenticate users against the LDAP, then mount the homedirs from FS1/FS2, via nfs mount
21:31	<_cb> That is a relief. I thougth I was going to have to use LDAP + KERBEROS + PAM + SAMBA.
21:31	<talntid> FS1/FS2 are shared storage, and the LTSP servers just nfsmount to it. :)
21:32	<_cb> any good links to read on that subject? I understand it at the 100,000 foot level but am going to have to read to be able to implement it
21:33	<talntid> I have no idea, I'm sure there are plenty of links, but I don't have any off-hand..
21:33	I did this setup 4 years ago ;)
21:34	<_cb> How many concurrent users/total users do you have?
21:34	<talntid> 75
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21:35	<talntid> my call center has 75 seats, and I usually average... 50-65 users per day.. at any given time..
21:35	<_cb> so roughly 36 per server?
21:35	<talntid> yeah, but one server could take care of it all...
21:36	for LTSP.. the most important thing is RAM...
21:36	<_cb> Ok, it looks as if from a functionality standpoint LTSP can deliver a lot of what Terminal Services/Citrix can. Specially for within the 4 walls.
21:36	<talntid> opinions vary.. but I use... (512 + (256 * users))
21:36	<_cb> Ditto for Citrix.
21:37	<talntid> so for worst case scenario, my server requires...
21:37	19712 mb ram
21:37	it's got 32GB, so, no worries :)
21:37	<_cb> Ha,ha.
21:37	<talntid> both of my servers are identical, too. so, really only half that is used usually...
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21:39	<talntid> and yes, LTSP can deliver much of what TS/Citrix can
21:39	and more. :)
21:39	<_cb> Right. I was starting to look into virtualizing the servers.
21:39	<talntid> do it
21:39	and never look back
21:39	if you have the budget, VMWare essentials plus.. if you don't, and you have a lot of hair to pull out... use Xen
21:39	I'm on Xen, and will be switching to VMWare...
21:40	but Xen has served me VERY well over the last few years..
21:40	<_cb> Xen was bought by Citrix.
21:40	<talntid> I feel I owe it a good steak dinner.
21:40	yes, it was. :)
21:40	it's been rock solid for me, for 4 years.
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21:41	<_cb> We started using Xen before Citrix bought it and it worked well for us. Unfortunatelly corporate wanted to go Terminal Services / VMware
21:41	<talntid> the VMWare part isn't unfortunate
21:41	VMWare is a phenominal product.
21:41	I'm interested to see how my environment works under VMWare compared to Xen... because Xen has been bulletproof for me.
21:41	<wolf1161> im on esxi (free) its awesome but wish I had the budget for essentials
21:42	<_cb> Person that was working for me told me that the Citrix/Xen combo far outperforms the Terminal Services/VMware Combo
21:42	<talntid> I have no doubt
21:42	<_cb> Actually it was not Xen but the Citrix version of Xen
21:42	<talntid> but I suspect that has more to do with Citrix vs TS, as opposed to Xen vs VMWare
21:43	I'll know soon enough :)
21:43	<_cb> It was the integration of Citrix and Xen that was not possible between Citrix and Vmware
21:43	<abeehc> libvirt/kvm rockin for me wouldn't go back to vmware for anything
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21:44	<_cb> abeehc maybe off topic but was just looking at that and trying to figure the functionlity differences between libvirt/kvm and virtualbox
21:44	<talntid> abeehc, my reasons for going to VMWare are because of VMotion, and much easier transitioning of physical hardware to a VM... I want to dedicate a PCI card to a VM...
21:45	_cb, Xen, KVM, etc... all use libvert
21:45	<alkisg> vbox ftw!
21:45	<talntid> lol, this conversation couldn't get any more offtopic... we all have our preferences.... ;)
21:46	virtualbox has some pretty blatent performance issues to overcome... I won't go into them, but if you go try it, and compare.. you'll see.
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21:47	<_cb> I run VB for the first time yesterday. Impressed by how easy it was to set up.
21:47	Ok so libvert will give me better perfomance. Any other pluses?
21:48	<talntid> something that may be a plus for you, may be a drawback for someone else.
21:48	it depends on what your goals are
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21:49	<_cb> I am toying with the idea of setting medium to small businesses on LTSP provide as much as I can from Linux (open office,etc) and provide a virtualized windows box for the rest. Won't support games or graphic intensive operations
21:49	Graphic intensive windows operations that is
21:51	<talntid> what is the motivation? cost savings?
21:52	<_cb> Deploy to the end user a cost effective, stable environment that is easy to support and allows them to do their work.
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21:54	<talntid> hmm
21:54	you should setup a test environment, and play around
21:54	<_cb> What does hmm mean in the linux world ? :-)
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21:54	<talntid> act like you are a.... graphics designer, or a programmer, or an attorney, or a receptionist...
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21:55	<talntid> and see what it takes to overcome each obstacle...
21:55	LTSP is great for a lot of things, and not do great at some things.
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21:55	<_cb> Like ?
21:55	<talntid> well, for example, my call center... it's awwesome
21:55	they use web browser & email
21:56	flash player tends to cause some problems.... using resources...
21:56	forget 3d rendering & stuff like that...
21:56	yes, it's possible, but not worth the effort usually
21:57	in most thin client environments, the users of thin clients complain about.. speed, temporary freezups, etc...
21:57	if you can say "shut up and just deal with it" as the IT person, it works.
21:57	usually everyone will freeze at same moment, and release at same moment...
21:57	<_cb> Speed should be faster
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21:57	<talntid> so it allows people to complain a lot
21:58	<_cb> Are freeze due to network, server or LTSP?
21:58	<andygraybeal> talntid, what about running ltsp w/ fat clients ... do you still end up with the same freezing issue?
21:58	<talntid> if you are proving this to SMB's, you can't tell them "just deal with it" as you could in a corporate environment..
21:59	andygraybeal, I don't have experience in that scenario
21:59	<andygraybeal> alkisg talked me through a fat client setup recently. i still haven't gotten around to testing it.
21:59	<_cb> We had freezing in my Citrix shop but it was due to the network and I could have fixed that with Enterasys gear that would allow me to prioritize my Citrix traffic
21:59	<talntid> _cb, it can be any of those.. usually network.
22:00	<_cb> If you cant prioritize your network traffic then almost sure it was the network. Pipe gets full and Thin Client freezes.
22:02	So freezes are fixable. Speed should be faster (assuming the network is not a roadblock)
22:03	<alkisg> Remote X in LANs is the fastest remote display protocol ever
22:03	Can display video without dropped frames etc
22:03	<talntid> offtopic: UGH. I'm doing the mcafee IDS certification, and it makes me watch 8 hours of video, even though I passed the test with 100%... :(
22:03	it's explaining DNS, and how switches work to me...
22:03	as if I had never touched a computer before...
22:04	<Hyperbyte> talntid, McAfee certification? :/
22:04	<talntid> yeah... :(
22:04	<Hyperbyte> That sounds pretty useless.
22:04	If I may be so frank.
22:04	<_cb> Learnt the hard way that certifications are never useless.
22:04	<talntid> the company I work for, wants to be able to sell the mcafee intrusion prevention systems... so they need 2 certified engineers, and 4 salesman...
22:05	they asked me to complete the engineer one... so I am
22:05	but it's complete crap. engineers should not be forced to watch the basics!
22:05	<_cb> small price to pay if it saves you from becoming a salesman
22:06	<talntid> _cb, this will be my first cert ever... i'm self taught..
22:06	<_cb> Me too and never worried about certs. Now that I am looking for a job I am learning how important they are.
22:07	<talntid> I keep getting job offers... hehe ;)
22:07	<_cb> Next time I get a job I am loading on certs. Going to look like a post-it board
22:07	<talntid> It's not super impressive, but i'm 26, making 70k salary, with no formal education
22:08	<_cb> Congrats. Invest wisely and load on certs.
22:09	* alkisg has about 24 years of education and makes half the money :D
22:10	<_cb> Ok, so in additon to speed what else does libvirt have over virtualbox?
22:10	<talntid> really?
22:11	better suppor
22:11	t
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22:11	<alkisg> I'm in greece though, lower income + lower expenses there
22:11	<talntid> ah, that makes sense
22:11	what's a gallon of fuel cost there now?
22:11	what unit of measure do you use for fuel? probably not gallon
22:12	<alkisg> A litre of gas is 1.654, not sure about gallons
22:12	(euros)
22:13	<talntid> wow
22:13	$9.09 per gallon, I think
22:13	<_cb> talntid do you guys do any network traffic prioritization in your environment?
22:14	<talntid> _cb, not yet. Rebuilding it this month, with a better budget.. new cisco hardware... gonna fix a lot of things I didn't like before.
22:14	<andygraybeal> scream at me if i'm wrong, but is'nt virtualbox for clientside, and libvirt/kvm for server side?
22:15	<_cb> If you have a say in this things look at Enterasys too. 2 years ago they were so much further ahead than Cisco in terms of autentication, traffic segmentation,etc,etc.
22:15	<talntid> I have the ONLY say in things :)
22:15	I manage it all alone.
22:16	<wolf1161> dont you have one it guy that dont do anything lol
22:16	<_cb> Read that too. That Virtualbox was clientside while libvirt server side but don't get a grasp on what that means. Guess that libvirt also performs better if underlying processor supports virtualization.
22:17	If you need and IT guy that does not do anything at all then, I am looking for a job.
22:17	<wolf1161> lol i allready tried that :)
22:17	<talntid> wolf1161, he took the new switches from old call center to new one.... ;)
22:17	what a good monkey... =D
22:17	<wolf1161> lol
22:17	<talntid> he bitched about it costing gas though
22:18	<wolf1161> lol I still never got paid for cutting the floor
22:18	marking for the cutting*
22:18	<talntid> maybe they figure... if they don't actually use the markings...... lol
22:19	<wolf1161> lol isnt that kinda what they did...
22:19	<talntid> hey cody, wanna learn everything about how packets run around a network, how dns works, etc.... ? :)
22:19	<_cb> Ha,ha.
22:20	<talntid> got a series of short videos for you to watch... and take a test on.... :)
22:20	<wolf1161> lol... no i dont wanna watch your videos
22:20	<_cb> @!#$ I think HD in my test server crashed. argh
22:20	<talntid> :(
22:20	<wolf1161> RAID save the day?
22:20	<_cb> Naw test server. Just re-install everything.
22:21	<wolf1161> fun :(
22:21	<talntid> damn i'm hungry
22:21	<wolf1161> i had Arbys :)
22:21	<talntid> you have arbys every day.
22:22	<wolf1161> im getting ready to get off work and come home
22:22	yeah its good!
22:22	<talntid> im gonna butter the floor before you get home.
22:22	<wolf1161> lol your funny
22:22	<_cb> Talntid when you have a chance to look at NoMachine I would love to hear your take on it. Looks as if it does not bring much to the table over LTSP.
22:23	<talntid> _cb, i'd have to play with it to have a real opinion of it...
22:23	<andygraybeal> _cb, maybe you already understand, but it means that kvm/libvirt's virtual machines act as servers.. where virtualbox's machines act as regular machines and are more for use on your workstation and not serving applications to people 24x7.
22:23	<talntid> i hate giving opinions based on what websites say... much prefer to test
22:24	<_cb> Well one can read specs and see if it is worth to test or not.
22:24	<talntid> it does look worthwhile testing
22:24	i won't have any time for a few weeks
22:24	<wolf1161> hey eric id be interested in testing it for ya :)
22:24	im looking at it now
22:24	<talntid> download and test it, yo.
22:24	it looks pretty easy to setup
22:24	<_cb> andygraybeal not sure I understand it. I was hoping that libvirt could stream a VM over the network to a client but that does not seem to be the case
22:25	<wolf1161> im gunna come homie and get the poweredge setup :)
22:25	<talntid> right now?
22:25	<wolf1161> in 20 ish min
22:25	<talntid> don't mind the britney spears/justin bieber playing in your room.
22:25	<wolf1161> lol wow
22:26	<_cb> Talntid thanks for all the education. Learnt a ton today
22:26	<talntid> no problem cb
22:26	<wolf1161> let me guess you were sleepin on my bed and forgot to turn it off
22:26	<talntid> if you got specific questions, talntid@gmail.com
22:26	cody i determined...
22:26	<wolf1161> ?
22:27	<talntid> my allergies are from Halo
22:27	<wolf1161> lol not possible
22:27	<talntid> =P
22:27	<wolf1161> shes a hypo alergenic puppy
22:27	and she had her alergies shot :)
22:27	<talntid> i'v been sooo lazy today
22:28	<wolf1161> lol when i left for work i figured you stayed home
22:28	<talntid> listening to music, and watching the videos (on mute) in the background... just check in on them every 30 minutes or so, to click next...
22:28	i mean, what's the worst that can happen... i get fired? ;P
22:28	<wolf1161> lol
22:28	wow
22:28	lol not like you have another job to fall back on.....
22:28	<talntid> 2.
22:29	<wolf1161> lol i was just gunna say that
22:29	<talntid> ;)
22:29	btw
22:29	matt @ onecall (huppins)
22:29	<wolf1161> ?
22:29	..
22:29	<talntid> wants me to build his call center, regardless of not being with ndm........ lol
22:29	<wolf1161> nice!
22:29	i wanna help :)
22:29	<talntid> asked me if I would build it, and maintain it remotely.. wants to talk $$ next week
22:29	<wolf1161> jesus!
22:30	<talntid> exactly like RTUI... build it so it doesn't break... then just collect a check every month....
22:30	<wolf1161> i hate you
22:30	we need to get selling call centers!
22:30	<talntid> so, next week I gotta go talk to him and talk numbers :)
22:30	<wolf1161> hate you
22:30	<talntid> it should push me over the 100k/year mark
22:30	<wolf1161> you would go from 70k to ??? jesus
22:31	so nomachine runs only on linux..
22:31	<talntid> they are already wired and stuff, 120 seats...
22:31	incoming asterisk setup
22:32	<wolf1161> what about your no compete deal that would violate
22:32	<_cb> actually no machine client runs on windows too
22:32	<wolf1161> we should prob leave ltsp for this lol...
22:32	does it... looking at the downloads
22:32	i mean server side
22:32	lol nm
22:32	<_cb> I run their gimp app (runnin on a server in italy) on a windows mach and was impressed by the speed.
22:33	<wolf1161> hmmm nice to know :)
22:33	im going to test it later
22:33	i am getting ready to implement ltsp but looking at other options
22:38	<_cb> 6" drop revived the drive. Probably not long for this world
22:38	<talntid> backup data
22:39	<_cb> It's just an ubuntu 11.04 client load and am going to load nx machine on top of it.
22:41	build it so it doesn't break... then just collect a check every month. That is what I am looking at.
22:41	<talntid> That's what I do ;)
22:41	<wolf1161> lol thats talntids moddo
22:41	<talntid> it's pretty sweet.
22:42	<wolf1161> hehe "im logged into the server now"
22:42	<talntid> the customer doens't pay for man hours..
22:42	they pay to know it won't break, and won't cost them productivity time...
22:43	in a call center environment, every minute can be quantified in a term of dollars.... it costs way more dollars when something is down, then it does to fix it...
22:43	so, pay to ensure it doesn't go down, and you are way ahead....
22:44	<wolf1161> yep :)
22:45	<_cb> Are this call centers inside a corporate office or independant businesses?
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22:47	<wolf1161> his current call center that he built is a individual business
22:47	<talntid> well, they are different call centers, different customers, different everything...
22:47	<wolf1161> he is looking at building another soon
22:48	<talntid> the call center I currently built/maintain, for the last 4.. (5?) years... is for www.rtui.com .. corp office is in Houston TX.. call center in Spokane, WA
22:51	<wolf1161> and currently is getting expanded to a new location
22:53	<_cb> Hey their sales executives earn over 100K per year. Maybe you ought to flunk the McCafee and become a salesman. JKD. Havin built a call center you can probably leverage that if you wanted too.
22:53	<talntid> different company, _cb ;)
22:53	the company I am doing the mcafee stuff for is www.ndm.net
22:54	i have multiple companies, multiple income sources... :)
22:55	<_cb> Own your own biz?
22:55	<talntid> yes
22:55	and work for a company full time also
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22:55	<_cb> Congrats.
22:56	<talntid> thanks :)
22:56	<_cb> Congrats on the biz. Sorry about the full time
22:57	<talntid> necessary evil, man :)
23:00	<_cb> Well I think you are working on a field that has a lot of potential. Thin Client on Linux.
23:00	<talntid> it's actually a very small part of what I do. heh
23:01	<_cb> blows me away. What is the most part of what you do?
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23:04	<talntid> mostly...
23:04	sales. :\
23:04	convincing people that I can build things that don't break
23:05	<_cb> Ha, ha, ha.
23:05	<talntid> then, it's asterisk phone systems, ltsp, and all the supporting systems... including virtualization..
23:05	just knowing as much as I can about all of it....
23:06	and troubleshooting systems I have no experience with, to get them working, and prove I can fix stuff... then sell them on MY stuff... :)
23:06	usually I get called, because something is broke, or something doesn't work like someone wants...
23:06	I fix that, then sell them my solution. hehe
23:07	and custom stuff.. writing PHP pages to give management information they need to make proper decisions...
23:08	<_cb> Well, gotta take kids to soccer. Thanks again for the education. Have been looking for weeks for some of this answers.
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23:08	<talntid> no worries man :)
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