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07:48 | <marc__> Hi, I have something strange happening with our pinet lab. When I reach the login page, keyboard and mouse are not working...
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08:49 | <tarzeau> if people use 16.04 ltsp server. which xsessions do you use?
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08:49 | ubuntu (unity) won't work remotely. and mate hanged for me logging in. amiwm and window maker just work, but nobody except me wants to use them
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08:49 | <alkisg> tarzeau: mate, gnome-flashback, lxde, xfce, kde, in that order for me :)
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08:50 | Mate doesn't hang for me in dozens of installations
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08:50 | <tarzeau> nis/ldap/nfs homes?
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08:50 | <alkisg> No, the default sshfs
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08:51 | Also, unity should work fine remotely, although quite slow
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08:52 | <tarzeau> very slow. it did actually. no NV-GLX stuff?
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08:52 | are you using directx or via ssh?
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08:52 | <alkisg> directx
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08:53 | I've no idea what "nv-glx" is
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08:55 | There's indirect glx, but it's not well maintained upstream in xorg, so I haven't seen it working in years. And furthermore, thin clients are usually ancient clients that don't support 3d even locally.
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08:55 | More recent clients are better of working as ltsp fat clients instead
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08:56 | <tarzeau> fat client being?
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08:56 | having local storage?
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08:56 | or also nbd, but running stuff locally? not remote x
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09:01 | <alkisg> ltsp fat clients don't have local storage, they just execute the nbd image locally, i.e. with their own cpu/ram instead of using the server's
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09:01 | LTSP automatically detects when clients are good enough to make them fat
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09:01 | !ltsp-pnp
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09:01 | <ltsp> ltsp-pnp: ltsp-pnp is an alternative (upstream) method to maintain LTSP installations for thin and fat clients that doesn't involve chroots: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/ltsp-pnp
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09:02 | <alkisg> What are your client specs? CPU/RAM?
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09:02 | tarzeau: ^
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09:04 | <tarzeau> i see, thanks for the explanation
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09:05 | we used to have alix hardware, which is Geode(TM) Integrated Processor by AMD PCS / 128 mb memory
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09:05 | meanwhile it's zotac machines (64-bit capable gbit ethernet 256 machines)
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09:06 | <alkisg> With ltsp-pnp, the zotac machines will automatically function as fat clients, while the geode ones as thin clients
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09:06 | Although you'll have a hard time to boot clients with 128 mb ram under 16.04
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09:06 | It's possible, but not with the default settings
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09:07 | <tarzeau> so you think we should use ltsp-pnp (no more changeroots)?
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09:07 | pnp doesn't use nbd?
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09:07 | <alkisg> I think that everyone that ltsp-pnp fits his needs, should use it
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09:07 | <tarzeau> we're using two ltsp servers
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09:07 | <alkisg> I don't know all your needs though
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09:07 | pnp uses nbd
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09:08 | <tarzeau> and building the nbd from a 30 gb system will be fast?
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09:08 | <alkisg> Why would you need a 30 gb system? (of course not counting /home)
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09:08 | <tarzeau> we've got a 20 gb /opt/commercial-software thing, and about 4000 software packages
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09:08 | because we have so many different users needing so many different software
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09:08 | of course, /home is separate, not counted
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09:09 | it's only software
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09:09 | <alkisg> You can omit that from the published image, and export it with either nfs or sshfs=localapps_extra_mounts
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09:09 | <tarzeau> but that'll become more complicated than just sticking to the changeroots
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09:10 | currently we have two ltsp servers 12.04, and we want to upgrade them to 16.04, one 16.04 works fine, however the collegue wants to put glusterfs on it for
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09:10 | the kiosk users we have (user creation, info displays, shop order machines)
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09:10 | <alkisg> Or you can just wait 40 minutes until ltsp-update-image finishes :)
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09:10 | <tarzeau> we've got fullscreen web browser machines displaying:
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09:11 | <alkisg> Complicated ==> it's 2 lines, one in ltsp-update-image.excludes and one in lts.conf
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09:12 | I don't understand where glusterfs would help for the kiosks
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09:12 | How many chroots do you currently have?
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09:12 | <tarzeau> http://events.phys.ethz.ch/event/screen
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09:12 | https://admin.phys.ethz.ch/newaccount/
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09:12 | https://lager.phys.ethz.ch
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09:13 | also some library and lab kiosks we have
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09:13 | for the kiosk user, we have 3 of them, one is generic, like having a .xsession file like this:
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09:14 | <alkisg> It's not difficult to have either a kiosk SCREEN or a kiosk session with ltsp-pnp, you don't need additional chroots for kiosks
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09:15 | And with fat clients you usually don't need multiple servers, one is enough
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09:15 | <tarzeau> i know we have one chroot on one ltsp server, and another on the other
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09:15 | but we have two, and it's not my decision to just have one
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09:15 | and the kiosks can also login to an rdp server (windows)
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09:15 | <alkisg> You can keep two, it's not a problem
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09:16 | rdp also works fine with ltsp-pnp
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09:16 | <tarzeau> alkisg: https://people.phys.ethz.ch/~myczko/dotxsession.txt
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09:16 | <alkisg> You just avoid having chroots, you don't lose functionality
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09:16 | <tarzeau> i see
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09:16 | but what's wrong with the chroots?
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09:17 | this pnp, is just the wrong name to sell it
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09:17 | <alkisg> When you have both thin and fat clients, you install 30 gb of software in both the server and the fat chroot
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09:17 | <tarzeau> pnp was used for plug n play (or pray), and it never freaking worked
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09:17 | so marketing wise you should've used another name for it
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09:17 | <alkisg> With ltsp-pnp, you only install them on the server and run ltsp-update-image
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09:18 | <tarzeau> but we don't have fat clients :)
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09:18 | <alkisg> And chroots break many times, with dbus, grub, kernel updates etc
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09:18 | That's the main motivation, because fat clients will work 1000 times better
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09:18 | <tarzeau> we've been running chroot ltsp servers since over 5 or 6 years
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09:18 | <alkisg> Have you seen any difference between thin clients and local ubuntu installations?
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09:18 | <tarzeau> of course, many!
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09:19 | <alkisg> Do you feel that thin clients go slower, have lags, can't watch video etc?
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09:19 | So, fat clients perform the same as local ubuntu installations, while not needing hard disks
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09:19 | <tarzeau> so i'll stuff another installation of the system into the chroot, and make the machines fat clients :)
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09:20 | <alkisg> Yup. You'll have the first implementation of fat clients, in which you install things twice
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09:20 | That's fine for performance, but it's a bit bad for sysadmins
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09:20 | <tarzeau> i'll mount the system into the chroot
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09:21 | <alkisg> Well feel free to implement it however you like; I'm just proposing the best way we've found after exploring the options for years
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09:21 | If you feel you can find a better way, go for it, and then share it with us
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09:21 | <tarzeau> i'll think about the pnp stuff
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09:22 | <alkisg> The main thing to think of, is fat clients
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09:22 | <tarzeau> it's probably the better way. i'll just have to find out how to activate pnp instead of chroot
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09:22 | <alkisg> You don't need to start with pnp, start with fat clients first
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09:22 | Just add all the software to your chroot
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09:22 | <tarzeau> we've switched to /opt/ltsp/amd64 (only) with 16.04, and there's about 10-15 alix hw still around
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09:23 | <alkisg> i386 is still good enough when you have mixed clients
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09:23 | No need to use amd64 imho
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09:23 | But you can have an i386 thin chroot just for alix if you prefer it, even an older 12.04 one that needs less ram
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09:23 | <tarzeau> fat clients with only 256 mb sounds just wrong
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09:23 | i mean our users run mathematica, matlab, maple
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09:23 | <alkisg> They're automatically thin
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09:23 | They're not fat
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09:24 | <tarzeau> their machines usually have 4-256 gb memory
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09:24 | <alkisg> The clients select to become fat only when they have > 400 mb ram
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09:24 | <tarzeau> so that's never :)
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09:24 | our zotacs diskless machines are only bought for running X11
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09:24 | <alkisg> Didn't you say you also have newer zotac clients?
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09:24 | 64bit capable?
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09:24 | How much ram do those have?
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09:24 | <tarzeau> yes, but without memory we bought them, yes 64bit capable
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09:24 | 256
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09:25 | mb
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09:25 | <alkisg> If they're 64bit capable, then buy ram for those
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09:25 | It's a pity to use them as thins
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09:25 | <tarzeau> it's a pity to not use our really fat workstations
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09:25 | <alkisg> Workstations can also work as ltsp fat clients
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09:26 | <tarzeau> i wonder if anyone has setup a room with student machines like workstation=ltspserver, and they allow cross logins with get_hosts listing all of them
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09:27 | <alkisg> You mean where all workstations are also LDM servers and allow client logins? Why would you do that , for load balancing?
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09:27 | <tarzeau> yes
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09:28 | to distribute the load , when not all machines are equal
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09:28 | <alkisg> I don't think anyone has done it, but I've thought about it for some labs that we have here with e.g. 7 good (fat) clients and 7 bad (thin) clients
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09:28 | It shouldn't be hard to do, just 10 lines of code or so
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09:29 | <tarzeau> how long does it take to install a good fat client for you? (non ltsp)
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09:30 | <alkisg> Do you mean "standalone" client there? I.e. with a disk?
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09:30 | <tarzeau> yes
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09:30 | <alkisg> All ubuntu installations take the same time for me, either ltsp servers or standalone clients. That's about 1 hour.
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09:31 | (depending on the network speed for downloading the packages after installation)
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09:31 | <tarzeau> we also had about 1-2 hours. and (we're using dphys-config and aptitude-robot packages to configure and install all debian packages)
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09:31 | we've imrpoved the install time by 60% adding:
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09:32 | eatmydata aptitude-robot (disabling all sync calls during package installation of 4000 pkgs)
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09:32 | and parallelizing the installation of the 15-20 gb /opt directory
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09:32 | so it's now 15-40 minutes
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09:33 | * tarzeau lunch.. | |
09:33 | <alkisg> We have custom .deb metapackages that pull all the packages that we need, e.g. "apt install high-school"
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09:33 | And apt repositories to host all of them
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09:33 | So we basically only run 1 command after base install
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11:02 | <tarzeau> same here, it's just that we do it in another way
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11:03 | for hosting, we run mirrors of debian and ubuntu, and our own repository for some things
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11:03 | then dphys-config installs the configuration files the software needs first, then the command aptitude-robot-session (installs 4000 packages in one command)
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11:04 | to prevent users thinking the machine is dead and re-powering it (black screen , and or login: text in prompt) we even got this now:
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11:07 | C=`stty -F /dev/tty1 size | awk '{print $2}'`;L=`stty -F /dev/tty1 size | awk '{print $1}'`;img2txt -f utf8 -d fstein -W $C -H $L /tmp/progress/progress${n}.png >/tmp/p.txt
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11:07 | https://people.phys.ethz.ch/~myczko/progress100.tar.gz
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11:08 | the pngs autogenerated using inkscape and a svg (and the helvetica font :)
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11:09 | https://www.flickr.com/photos/aiei/shares/o27528 (screenshot)
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11:12 | and the /tmp/p.txt is being cat /tmp/p.txt > /dev/tty1
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11:12 | no double buffering yet, but would be possible with tty1+tty2 using chvt 1/2 :)
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11:17 | do you have ltsp clients with more than 1 screen?
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12:45 | <alkisg> tarzeau: yes, we have with 2 screens or even multiseat with 2 seats
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12:52 | <tarzeau> ok
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12:52 | did you ever understand ltsp-update-sshkeys or are you also using stricthostkeychecking no?
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13:10 | <alkisg> tarzeau: I'm an ltsp developer, of course I know how ltsp-update-sshkeys works...
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13:10 | <tarzeau> alkisg: ok, what and where and how am i supposed to run it?
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13:11 | <alkisg> There are many cases on how this works, for example in ltsp-pnp it just works, you don't need to run it
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13:11 | <tarzeau> if i run it without parameters, or a host as parameter it overwrites /etc/ltsp/ssh_known_hosts.auto
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13:12 | an EXAMPLES section listing a few of them in the manual page would be helpful, no?
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13:12 | <alkisg> Documentation authors are always welcome :)
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13:12 | In general, it's just "ltsp-update-sshkeys"
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13:12 | <tarzeau> with 2 ltsp servers?
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13:13 | <alkisg> If you run `ltsp-update-sshkeys server2`, then you get its keys to /etc/ltsp/ssh_known_hosts.auto
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13:14 | So then when you run ltsp-update-sshkeys with no parameters again in server1, both the server1 and server2 keys get in the chroot
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13:14 | The end result should be that the chroot should contain all keys with the appropriate host names
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13:16 | <tarzeau> aha
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13:17 | wow these 3 lines in the man page would save so much headache
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13:17 | FAQ section
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13:17 | what about the ldm...
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13:17 | it supports ssh and rdesktop right?
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13:18 | lts.conf with SCREEN_08=rdesktop
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13:18 | could i just write about anything in there, i mean can i also use xfree-rdp instead of rdesktop?
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13:19 | because rdesktop only supports 2color mouse cursors, so running adobe software on an rdp server makes the mouse cursor go berzerk like unusable
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13:30 | <alkisg> Those lines are there in ltsp-update-sshkeys --help
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13:30 | rdesktop doesn't have ssh keys
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13:30 | <tarzeau> rdesktop thing was not related to ssh
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13:30 | it was just about rdesktop vs xfree-rdp
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13:31 | <alkisg> Only those 2 are supported
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13:31 | For others, you'd need to create your own screen script
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13:32 | <tarzeau> /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/ldm/ there?
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13:34 | <alkisg> $CHROOT/usr/share/ltsp/screen.d
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14:05 | <tarzeau> thanks
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14:34 | <ben_nabiy> !ppa
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14:34 | <ltsp> I do not know about 'ppa', but I do know about these similar topics: 'sbalneav-ppa', 'greek-schools-ppa'
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14:34 | <ben_nabiy> !greek-schools-ppa
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14:34 | <ltsp> greek-schools-ppa: https://launchpad.net/~ts.sch.gr/+archive/ppa/ supports LTS Ubuntu releases with newer LTSP versions, bug fixes etc
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