IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.libera.chat (webchat)
Channel log from 23 February 2014 (all times are UTC)
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| 03:21 | <vagrantc> work_alkisg: so, rather than do the simple thing of just uploading ldm with the one fix you added... i've gotten crazy and tried to update the packaging a bit, which has lead to a yak named multi-arch.
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| 03:23 | * vagrantc notices a few deprecation warnings during the ldm build... | |
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| 03:35 | <vagrantc> it seems we have /usr/lib/ldm hardcoded in at least two places ...
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| 03:35 | well, semi-hardcoded
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| 03:37 | * vagrantc wonders if it makes sense to just set LDM_PLUG_DIR=$libexec | |
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| 05:27 | <alkisg> vagrantc: you do remember that this is probably the last ldm to ever be released, right? :P :D
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| 05:28 | <vagrantc> alkisg: that's what we said about the last one :P
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| 05:28 | <alkisg> Are you still planning for an ldm-less jessie release?
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| 05:28 | <vagrantc> planning poorly, more like wistfully dreaming
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| 05:30 | how long could it ppossibly take? :)
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| 05:30 | <alkisg> I think we're mostly done with ltsp5, so next time we'll have time to work on ltsp, we can start with the ltsp6 branch...
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| 05:31 | If we do it one step at a time, it won't take much
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| 05:31 | But if we want all the features in before the first ltsp6 release, it could take months
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| 05:31 | E.g. ltspd
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| 05:32 | <vagrantc> it'll be somewhat hard to have them both in parallel ... but that would be an option
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| 05:33 | <alkisg> I mean, we could release a ldm-less ltsp6 in e.g. a month, but without ltspd, without supporting all the ldm* lts.conf variables etc, and consider that the "main ltsp release", with ltsp5 being in maintainance only mode
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| 05:33 | And then in the next months, to implement ltspd, to support more lts.conf variables etc
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| 05:34 | <vagrantc> let's skip a bunch of numbers and call it ltsp 2014
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| 05:34 | <alkisg> Haha, np
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| 05:34 | LTSP 14.04 :P
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| 05:35 | * vagrantc would rather have a more obvious version | |
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| 05:36 | <alkisg> It's an upstream project, not a distro that combines other software. The major.minor.revision scheme is fine...
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| 05:37 | <vagrantc> when the numbers are arbitrary, people often report just the first number
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| 05:37 | <alkisg> Which makes more sense if it's the "major" number, rather than e.g. a year
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| 05:37 | <vagrantc> whereas if it's obviously a date, i think people might be more likely to remember itt
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| 05:38 | <alkisg> Devs wouldn't remember the features that ltsp had in that date, though...
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| 05:38 | <vagrantc> a little bit better
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| 05:38 | wouldn't remember in a version any better than a year
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| 05:39 | but whatever, it's just an idea
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| 05:40 | <alkisg> samba 4.x is a major rewrite from samba 3.x. kde 4.x, gnome 3.x too. About systemd 20x compared to 19x, no idea...
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| 05:40 | ltsp 4 was its own distro, ltsp 5 isn't, ltsp 6 will be ldm-less
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| 05:41 | I don't know major.minor.revision makes more sense to me
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| 05:41 | <vagrantc> there are *huge* feature differences between fairly minor 5.x vs. 5.y
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| 05:41 | <alkisg> That might be our fault
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| 05:41 | We could have named init-ltsp.d as ltsp6
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| 05:41 | <vagrantc> we've never really established a roadmap
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| 05:41 | so it's hard to know when we've achieved something
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| 05:42 | a feature of note
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| 05:42 | <alkisg> I even proposed that back then...
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| 05:43 | * vagrantc tags/pushes/uploads ldm 2.2.13 | |
| 05:43 | * alkisg reads http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_versioning :) | |
| 05:43 | <vagrantc> yeah, the init-ltsp.d was a pretty big innovation
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| 05:47 | <alkisg> wine used date-based versioning before switching to major.minor.revision
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| 05:59 | * vagrantc wonders how long before gtk2 is completely dropped | |
| 05:59 | <vagrantc> we'd better get ldm-less ltsp working before then!
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| 05:59 | <alkisg> mate-desktop will need 5 years to move to gtk3... I wouldn't worry about that :)
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| 06:00 | <vagrantc> which is, noteably, not in debian
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| 06:00 | * vagrantc stands corrected | |
| 06:00 | <alkisg> Part of it already is, the rest is slowly going in..
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| 06:01 | They reported that it would be in 14.04 and in jessie
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| 06:01 | I don't know about 14.04 though, FF and all...
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| 06:01 | <vagrantc> mate-desktop is currently in jessie, apparently...
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| 06:01 | <alkisg> Not all of it
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| 06:01 | The proposed installation method in jessie is to add their repository
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| 06:02 | My roadmap for Greek schools is to offer a 14.04 live cd, and then a jessie/mate-desktop live cd as the upgrade path after 14.04
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| 06:02 | * vagrantc wonders what the point of a mate-desktop package is if it's incomplete | |
| 06:03 | <alkisg> Last I checked, a few weeks back, only 1/3 of the mate packages were available in jessie
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| 06:03 | <vagrantc> doesn't make sense to have broken packages in jessie ... sid, sure.
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| 06:04 | <alkisg> http://packages.qa.debian.org/m/mate-desktop.html
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| 06:04 | [2014-01-26] mate-desktop 1.6.2-1 MIGRATED to testing (Britney)
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| 06:04 | I might have last looked before that date, when mate-desktop was not available
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| 06:05 | Ah, this is a good status page: http://wiki.mate-desktop.org/status:debian
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| 06:07 | <vagrantc> https://bugs.debian.org/737013
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| 06:07 | that's, uh, the most ridiculous reason for closing a bug.
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| 06:09 | "we'r enot ready yet, so we're closing this bug"
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| 06:16 | * vagrantc can't resist a comment | |
| 06:39 | <vagrantc> stgraber: i'm thinking you'll want to sync ldm 2.2.13-1, altough i did do some slight packaging changes
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| 18:38 | <Hyperbyte> Hrm, has Freenode been DoS'ed again?
| |
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| 18:54 | <ccat> .
| |
| 18:54 | hello! So ltsp will transfer everything from from server-based graphics cards (like geforce) and sound cards to remote unit, and transfer all mouse, kb, and touchscreen back ... completely transparently?
| |
| 18:55 | <vagrantc> it doedsn't reaally use the server's hardware, except the CPU
| |
| 18:55 | and ram, and hard disk...
| |
| 18:56 | graphics are all on the local hardware, sound is on the local hardware
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| 18:56 | (although software essentially streams the graphics/audio to the client hardware)
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| 18:56 | ccat: but basically, yes, that's what it does.
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| 18:59 | <ccat> vagrantc: What if you want to run a cad program that has gpu acceleration -- remotely (like "dumb" terminal)
| |
| 19:06 | <vagrantc> it may not work very well
| |
| 19:06 | more likely then you'll want to try fatclients
| |
| 19:06 | !fatclient
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| 19:06 | <ltsp`> I do not know about 'fatclient', but I do know about these similar topics: 'fatclients', 'fatclient-printers'
| |
| 19:06 | <vagrantc> !fatclients
| |
| 19:06 | <ltsp`> fatclients: You may find some info about the Ubuntu/LTSP implementation of fat clients at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/FatClients
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| 19:07 | <vagrantc> it's not ubuntu-specific, but that might explain the idea
| |
| 19:07 | ccat: basically fatclients still boot off of the network, but still run everthing locally
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| 19:08 | ccat: requires more powerful clients, less powerful server, and takes full advantage of the local hardware
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| 19:13 | <ccat> vagrantc: anyone here know about freenx and such?
| |
| 19:15 | <vagrantc> you could conceivably use freenx or x2go with LTSP, but it isn't yet upstreamed
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| 19:16 | it's not supported out of the box
| |
| 19:16 | but it probably wouldn't be hard to add support
| |
| 19:16 | though those are not necessarily useful on a local network, that would only make sense if you wanted to connect to a server over the internet
| |
| 19:17 | and you wouldn't want to download the whole OS over the internet, so you'd still need some kind of local server
| |
| 19:22 | <ccat> faq: "server requirements needed for ... where you want to do heavy graphics, interactive games, and Flash animation" -- This *implies* ltsp can xfer graphics fast, but does not say from built-in gpu or/and gpu-card
| |
| 19:23 | vagrantc: -- ltsp faq
| |
| 19:23 | <vagrantc> where?
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| 19:23 | <ccat> http://wiki.ltsp.org/wiki/Installation
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| 19:23 | <vagrantc> it's pretty unrealistic to do media-intensive tasks on a thin client
| |
| 19:24 | wow. those guidelines are about 5 years old
| |
| 19:25 | multiply the ram requirements by 3 or 4
| |
| 19:25 | at least
| |
| 19:26 | <ccat> then also note "If you intend to make heavy use of graphics work in your curriculum, you may want to add even more, perhaps doubling the previous estimate."
| |
| 19:26 | <vagrantc> ccat: even for basic web browsing
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| 19:26 | ccat: seriously, that document is over 5 years out of date.
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| 19:27 | <ccat> vagrantc: --- just re graphics
| |
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| 19:27 | <vagrantc> it is out od date. period.
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| 19:28 | <vagrantc> miminum client requirements are more like 512MB of ram nowadays
| |
| 19:28 | <ccat> vagrantc: well, THAT *is* the faq! --- the only concise source of info new users have to understand the sw. :)
| |
| 19:29 | <vagrantc> like all too many projects, the documentation lags far behind the development
| |
| 19:30 | * vagrantc apologizes | |
| 19:30 | * vagrantc wonders if the ltsp manual is any more current | |
| 19:31 | <ccat> vagrantc: so modern graphics exceeds current capabilities even though current capabilities exceed that doc?
| |
| 19:33 | <vagrantc> ltsp manual still uses some of the same outdated information ... hrm.
| |
| 19:34 | ccat: the bus speed of your graphics card to the motherboard is *much* faster than even gigabit network cards.
| |
| 19:35 | ccat: software is not really designed for network transparency these days, so unfortunately, graphics-intensive stuff is unrealistic on thin clients.
| |
| 19:35 | that said, experimentation is far more useful than any documentation- individual use-cases vary *greatly*
| |
| 19:37 | if you need multi-media, use LTSP fatclients. it's really the only sane option.
| |
| 19:37 | then it's not really much different from running a disked machine, and software developer's assumptions are more similar.
| |
| 19:38 | still gain a lot of the advantages of centralization, just requires more capable client hardware
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| 19:41 | <vagrantc> work_alkisg: did you have everything into ltsp-trunk that you wanted in the next upload?
| |
| 19:42 | !alkisg-todo
| |
| 19:42 | <ltsp`> alkisg-todo: (#1) LDM password hash, or (#2) Hooks for running scripts on these phases: INITRD/INIT/RC/DM/AUTH/LOGIN/SESSION/PERIODIC/LOGOUT/SHUTDOWN
| |
| 19:42 | <vagrantc> !todo
| |
| 19:42 | <ltsp`> I do not know about 'todo', but I do know about these similar topics: 'vagrant-todo', 'alkisg-todo', 'bts-todo', 'bennabiy_todo'
| |
| 19:42 | * vagrantc nudges the ltsp` bot | |
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| 19:48 | <vagrantc_> hrm. lots of lag today
| |
| 19:48 | !vagrant-todo
| |
| 19:48 | <ltsp`> vagrant-todo: (#1) pxemenus, or (#2) merge https://code.launchpad.net/~ts.sch.gr/sch-scripts/ltsp-debian-packaging but note that $(DEBVERS) doesn't work in r1194
| |
| 19:49 | <vagrantc> !vagrant-todo
| |
| 19:49 | <ltsp`> vagrant-todo: (#1) pxemenus, or (#2) merge https://code.launchpad.net/~ts.sch.gr/sch-scripts/ltsp-debian-packaging but note that $(DEBVERS) doesn't work in r1194
| |
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| 19:49 | <vagrantc_> !forget vagrant-todo 2
| |
| 19:49 | <ltsp`> The operation succeeded.
| |
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| 19:54 | * vagrantc_ waves to stgraber | |
| 19:56 | <ccat> vagrantc_: (sorry, neighbor at door) --- Really all that is needed is to send the screen image to the remote running as terminal, and send the gui-commands back to the server running the sw
| |
| 19:57 | vagrantc_: --- screen and sound
| |
| 19:57 | <vagrantc_> it just depends on how intensive that is
| |
| 19:58 | for some tasks, that's fine, and works great as a thin client, for others, not so much.
| |
| 19:58 | <ccat> vagrantc_: --- oh, and do it 30 to 60 fps :)
| |
| 19:58 | <vagrantc_> if you know the fps, then you can actually measure how much bandwidth it takes
| |
| 19:59 | there's some formula for resolution X depth X fps or something
| |
| 19:59 | it gets ugly fast
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| 20:00 | it's one of the things that makes LTSP not viable over wireless
| |
| 20:01 | <ccat> vagrantc_: tried 60*1024^2*32/2^30 = 1.875Gb
| |
| 20:02 | vagrantc_: but then there is compression, which could be quite a bit for some images
| |
| 20:02 | <vagrantc_> there is no compression, unless you use a protocol that uses compression :P
| |
| 20:04 | ccat: at any rate, experimentation with actualy use is really the best measure.
| |
| 20:04 | <ccat> vagrantc_: so ltsp has no compression??
| |
| 20:04 | <vagrantc_> it just uses raw X11 protocol
| |
| 20:04 | well, the default configuration uses raw X11
| |
| 20:05 | well, actually, the default configuration typically uses raw X11 over ssh
| |
| 20:05 | but LTSP itself is for the most part, just the OS delivery mechanism
| |
| 20:06 | you can configure it to do whatever you want.
| |
| 20:07 | compression does significantly increase the server and client hardware requirements, which is a balancing act and often times will slow down performance
| |
| 20:08 | that's where NX/x2go do targeted compression of things that make sense, but those protocols are also about reduced latency
| |
| 20:09 | <ccat> vagrantc_: what about rdp?
| |
| 20:10 | <vagrantc_> LTSP does have some built-in support for rdp
| |
| 20:10 | LDM itself can connect over RDP, and there are also scripts that use rdesktop/xfreerdp
| |
| 20:11 | <ccat> vagrantc_: (re updating info, start here! -- especially as it is not even listed yet -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_remote_desktop_software
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| 20:15 | <vagrantc_> ltsp can use, or can be adapted to use, any protocol that will run on linux
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| 20:15 | it's just a network booted OS
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| 20:25 | <ccat> vagrantc_: "LTSP is a collection of software that turns a normal GNU/Linux installation into a terminal server. " -- more to fix?
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| 20:26 | <vagrantc_> i don't see anything wrong with thhat statement...
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| 20:29 | <ccat> vagrantc_: because a Modern normal install has a gui, thus implying that lstp spports that gui
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| 20:29 | -- supports
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| 20:32 | vagrantc_: -- thus, whatever that gui can show, (unlike the old text display), like video, graphics, etc
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| 20:38 | <vagrantc_> i don't see how that contradicts that
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| 20:39 | it actually does that, though there are some limitations of physics and code.
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| 20:40 | <vagrantc_> some things it doesn't do well, just like any other computer
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| 20:41 | if you want to help improve the documentation, please start proposing some actual fixes
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| 20:42 | <ccat> vagrantc_: sorry, can't really help improve what i don't really yet understand :(
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| 20:42 | * vagrantc_ finds the best way to understand is to start trying it | |
| 20:45 | <ccat> vagrantc_: that would require first getting the server and client pc's that it is proposed to be used with in... order to max the server and min the client specs :)
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| 20:46 | <vagrantc_> setting up a virtual machine and a virtual client to test it out and get familiar with how it works should be accessible
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| 20:47 | you can also probably grab any old computer and set them up to see how they work
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| 20:47 | or an old laptop ... whatever you have on hand
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| 20:48 | <ccat> vagrantc_: current pc's are pre... millennial
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| 20:49 | <vagrantc_> might work for a proof of concept
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| 20:51 | it obviously won't give you useful data about useability of newer stuff, but it might give you an idea of the bare-minimal specs
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| 20:53 | the absolute minimal specs for a proof of concept client are probably between 128MB-256MB of ram, depending on what OS you use. Ubuntu has higher minimum requirements than Debian, for example.
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| 20:56 | <ccat> vagrantc_: well so far it seems the heart of ltsp is just to do the remote bootup -- and then it's up to the client which terminal to use, though one is included in the ltsp package
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| 20:58 | <vagrantc_> well, the default setup connects to the server using LDM, which connects via ssh with X11 forwarding
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| 20:59 | <vagrantc_> there is also a frequently used mode to disable ssh for all but authentication purposes ...
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| 20:59 | LDM_DIRECTX
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| 21:00 | well, i guess the homedir stuff is still over sshfs by default as well
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| 21:00 | biig loss of security, but big performance gain
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| 21:02 | <ccat> vagrantc_: do you even need ssh on a wired home network?
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| 21:03 | <vagrantc_> depends on your priorities
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| 21:04 | * vagrantc_ proposes secure defaults and lets people shoot themselves in the foot if they want to | |
| 21:05 | <ccat> vagrantc_: it can't really be physically tapped, and if someone *did* have the equipment to remote-sense somehow, would mere ssh even help?
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| 21:06 | <vagrantc_> a home network isolated with no connections to the internet?
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| 21:12 | <ccat> vagrantc_: no, still one pc with inet conn
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| 21:13 | vagrantc_: -- but even that one could just run ltsp
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| 21:13 | <vagrantc_> sounds like you have plenty of attack vectors... *anyways* :P
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| 21:14 | <ccat> vagrantc_: how so?
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| 21:15 | <vagrantc_> i err on the side of security, but i'm not really wanted to get into a long debate about it
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| 21:15 | i'd rather keep working on ltsp
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| 21:18 | <ccat> vagrantc_: no, no don't want to debate, just learn, especially what You (very experienced) are thinking of (IF?) related to MY queries, that I (very new) am overlooking
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| 21:19 | <vagrantc_> connecting any two networks will invariably involve some level of insecurity
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| 21:19 | web browsers also routinely run remote untrusted code, for example
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| 21:19 | that's the short of it
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| 21:21 | i do not believe in "trsutworthy" networks.
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| 21:22 | <ccat> vagrantc_: y, agreed, that is why looking for ideally a sort of KVM setup
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| 21:24 | --- remote kvm that is
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| 22:09 | <alkisg-android> vagrantc yup i am done pushing stuff feel free to tag
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| 22:13 | <vagrantc_> alkisg-android: ok
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| 22:49 | <ccat> .
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| 22:49 | vagrantc_: ok then, thanks for all the info! Don't forget to update the wiki at least A LITTLE, to reduce future confusion -- and -- so project gets more notice, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_remote_desktop_software
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| 22:59 | <vagrantc_> i don't edit the wiki at all
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| 22:59 | ccat: ltsp is not appropriate for that page
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| 23:00 | ccat: that's a list of some of the protocols ltsp can use
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| 23:00 | some of which it does
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| 23:00 | i guess i did edit the wiki once or twice
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| 23:05 | <ccat> vagrantc_: then what is LDM? -- (can't find a doc yet)
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| 23:17 | <vagrantc_> ccat: it's the LTSP Display Manager
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| 23:17 | ccat: the default login manager for LTSP
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| 23:17 | we're working on getting rid of it entirely
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| 23:17 | but for the forseeable future, it's what we're stuck with
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| 23:18 | <ccat> vagrantc_: so it can only generate a login screen?
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| 23:20 | <vagrantc_> i don't know what you mean by generate...
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| 23:20 | it handles the whole login process
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| 23:21 | when you boot a default ltsp setup, a it's what takes your username/password and logs into the server and starts a session, at the most basic level
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| 23:36 | <ccat> vagrantc_: oh sorry, "LDM itself can connect over RDP" made it sound like a basic terminal
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| 23:37 | -- basic gui-terminal
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| 23:54 | <vagrantc_> ccat: LDM has plugins as to which protocols it uses
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| 23:54 | ccat: default is ssh with X forwarding, but it also has an RDP plugin
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| 23:59 | <ccat> vagrantc_: ok --- Why isn't freenx (which seems to do the same forwarding) necessarily useful on a local network?
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