IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.libera.chat (webchat)
Channel log from 26 February 2015 (all times are UTC)
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| 15:04 | <fiesh> is there anyone who successfully uses an nbd device as the root device? I do not seem to be able to set it up, there's no real documentation on the kernel parameters needed, and the "odlstyle" vs "newstyle" seems to be entirely unadressed in the kernel
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| 16:02 | <alkisg> fiesh: Which distro/version? If it's recent enough, `ltsp-config nbd` might help
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| 16:03 | <fiesh> alkisg: thanks -- I have the nbd-server running, successfully enough, I can access it with nbd-client. But the linux kernel will not use it as a root system, and I don't know how to specify it on its command line
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| 16:05 | <alkisg> fiesh: still, which distro/version are you using?
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| 16:07 | <fiesh> gentoo, current
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| 16:08 | <alkisg> The nbd-client support in debian/ubuntu comes from the nbd-client initramfs script
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| 16:08 | I don't know if gentoo/dracut have such support
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| 16:09 | I think knipwim, the person working in ltsp/gentoo previously, was using nfs
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| 16:09 | <fiesh> oh, so you cannot even pass an argument to the kernel and have it mount itself, you need to do it via initramfs?
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| 16:09 | heh then I was quite misled
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| 16:09 | <alkisg> Aren't you using an initramfs with dracut?
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| 16:09 | Maybe dracut does have nbd support, I don't know
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| 16:10 | But I don't think the kernel itself has nbd root support
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| 16:12 | <fiesh> I am, but it seems I should just stick with NFS then too if it requires more trickery... I still have other problems I'm wrestling with, most prominently (USB) mouse and keyboard not working on the client and it ignoring the fact that I added sshd to the default runlevel, so I can also not ssh into it and see why the keyboard doesn't work ;)
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| 16:12 | and if any, I guess using iSCSI would make sense then instead of nbd
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| 16:15 | <alkisg> You can also run squashfs over nfs for the speed benefit
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| 16:15 | iSCSI instead of NBD would make sense for Windows clients, but why for Linux clients?
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| 16:16 | AoE is an option too, if dracut supports it
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| 16:16 | <fiesh> because I have a diskless debian client at home that worked well on iSCSI, so I have good experiences ;)
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| 16:16 | I guess NFS is fine for now really, the speed on gbit lan is sufficient it seems... if only I can get the sshd to work, hehe
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| 16:27 | ... is there some special trick as to why the chroot environment ignores the services it normally is supposed to start? I can't get the sshd running on the client
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| 16:32 | <alkisg> ltsp-update-image.excludes does have a list of omitted files, but you're not using ltsp-update-image, right?
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| 16:32 | (it omits the ssh keys)
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| 16:38 | <fiesh> no, I mount via nfs, so any change in the chroot environment should reflect directly on the client side
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| 16:39 | <alkisg> nfs/rw, or over overlayfs/aufs?
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| 16:41 | <fiesh> I set nfs to ro, so I hope ltsp automatically adds the overlay? I can't tell since the client's GUI starts too soon to read everything ;)
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| 16:42 | <alkisg> upstream ltsp doesn't add an overlay automatically, it's done in the initramfs in a distro specific way
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| 16:42 | I think knipwim was using unionfs
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| 16:42 | <fiesh> oh, hmm
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| 16:45 | well since the root fs is automatically mounted ro, I suppose they took care of it somehow in gentoo, allowing rw in my /etc/expots doesn't change anything
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| 16:45 | <alkisg> can you `touch /somefile` in the client?
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| 16:46 | what's the client's /proc/self/mountinfo like?
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| 16:46 | <fiesh> the problem is, I cannot access the client at all --- the keyboard / mouse don't work, and I cannot log in since I can't get sshd to get started
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| 16:47 | <alkisg> Try adding ltsp.break=50-fstab
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| 16:47 | as a kernel parameter
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| 16:48 | <fiesh> ok, that works, but problem is, my usb keyboard doesn't ;)
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| 16:49 | <alkisg> while troubleshooting, get a ps/2 one :)
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| 16:50 | <fiesh> hah I have one in front of me, the problem is the intel nuc who's serving as the thin client doesn't have a plug for it ;)
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| 16:51 | <alkisg> try a vm client then
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| 16:51 | <fiesh> and the mouse / kernel do work in the bios, so it must be a weird kernel issue, but I can't figure out why
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| 16:51 | hmm that is actually a very good idea
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| 16:52 | <alkisg> If you're using a plain kernel, it won't have the drivers for the keyboard etc
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| 16:52 | If you're using an initramfs, it might too not contain those drivers
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| 16:52 | *modules
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| 16:52 | Start with the vm client...
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| 16:53 | !kvm
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| 16:53 | <ltsp`> kvm: Virtual thin client: kvm -vga-vmware -ctrl-grab -no-shutdown -net nic,model=virtio -net user,tftp=/var/lib/tftpboot,bootfile=/ltsp/i386/pxelinux.0
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| 16:57 | <fiesh> hmm I just tried VirtualBox, which resulted in an exec format error, strangely enough... also I'm not using pxelinux since that just resulted in reboots for me, I just chainload iPXE and then tell iPXE to load the kernel and initramfs over tftp
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| 17:00 | <alkisg> Virtualbox with ipxe.iso resulted in an exec format error?
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| 17:01 | <fiesh> it loads the kernel and then gives Exec format error, yes... even though the same kernel does boot on the actual intel nuc
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| 17:11 | <alkisg> Is it a 64bit kernel on a 32bit vm?
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| 17:12 | <fiesh> both 64bit
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| 17:12 | <alkisg> And the host is 64bit too?
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| 17:13 | <fiesh> yes
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| 17:13 | <alkisg> ...well, ask in #vbox or try kvm, I don't know... :)
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| 17:13 | I've never had that issue
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| 17:14 | You're not using uefi in either side, are you?
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| 17:14 | <fiesh> hehe, no
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| 17:15 | <alkisg> ...or try booting an .iso with that same vbox vm
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| 17:15 | <fiesh> I have no clue how that can be... just tried VirtualBox on a different host, some thing... very strange
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| 17:23 | wow, different NUC, the keyboard and the mouse work... I have no idea what's going on, but at least progress, hurray :-)
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| 17:23 | ... until X starts and the login comes, omg
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| 17:24 | but now sshd also works... I have no clue what is going on
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| 17:25 | <alkisg> ...missing modules? :)
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| 17:26 | <fiesh> I have basically everything compiled into the kernel... but I guess that must be it, although how the usb keyboard works on one system and then not on the other is beyond me
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| 17:28 | but it seems the evdev xorg modules are missing, so that's definitely not good
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| 17:28 | <alkisg> Newer generation motherboards need newer kernels/modules, perhaps the second NUC you've tried is 3rd generation and the first one is 4th generation
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| 17:28 | <fiesh> that could actually be
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| 17:29 | alkisg: thanks for your help btw, I can't believe I'm finally making progress after so much suffering, hehe
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| 17:29 | <alkisg> Anyways, try with SCREEN_02=shell first
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| 17:29 | Or, via sshd
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| 17:29 | Check /proc/self/mountinfo
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| 17:29 | See if the NFS is rw
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| 17:29 | <fiesh> NFS is ro
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| 17:29 | and there are tons of tmpfs's mounted
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| 17:29 | <alkisg> I mean, if / is rw...
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| 17:29 | <fiesh> so this all appears fine
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| 17:29 | <alkisg> So you can actually edit a file in /etc ?
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| 17:29 | Or touch /somefile?
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| 17:29 | <fiesh> yes
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| 17:30 | <alkisg> Nice, I wonder what part did that
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| 17:30 | So I assume you're not using an initramfs, neither dracut etc??
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| 17:31 | <fiesh> I am using an initramfs, and to be precise, I can't write to / or /etc, but for example /etc/conf.d thanks to
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| 17:31 | tmpfs on /etc/conf.d type tmpfs (rw,relatime,mode=755)
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| 17:31 | etc.
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| 17:31 | <alkisg> OK that could be knipwim's bind-mounts
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| 17:33 | Btw, how come you're using gentoo + LTSP? Only as an experiment, or are you actually deploying it somewhere?
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| 17:34 | <fiesh> I am actually _hoping_ to deploy it here as the main terminal server for our production system
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| 17:34 | where the software development is ru non
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| 17:35 | having bought a huge mofo of an intel xeon server... and been struggling for almost two days with LTSP now ;)
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| 17:35 | <alkisg> OK, LTSP on Gentoo is without a maintainer currently, afaik, so if you find anything that needs to be fixed, patches welcome...
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| 17:36 | <fiesh> and now I can log in, it just throws me back out right away again... progress is slow but finally happening
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| 17:36 | I actually had to write my own ebuild that would use the new github repo of quickstart
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| 17:36 | kicktoo caused problems, I wrote to the author, and he's looking into it it seems
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| 17:36 | but with quickstart, I could things going
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| 17:37 | * alkisg has no idea about quickstart, kicktoo etc... I've only used debian-based distros... | |
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| 17:51 | <ragnarok-huayra> hi all we have a issue with epoptes somebody use it?
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| 17:52 | <fiesh> hmm ok the client won't authenticate successfully with the server... I was overly optimistic to actually get it running today I suppose
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| 18:04 | <fiesh> is there a way to debug ldm's doing? tcpdump tells me it does try something via ssh, but it just claims there was no response from the server
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| 18:16 | <alkisg> ragnarok-huayra: what issue?
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| 18:16 | <alkisg> fiesh: from the local ssh connection to the client, try: ssh user@server
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| 18:16 | Change user to an existing username, but leave server exactly as it is
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| 18:18 | <fiesh> ssh works fine
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| 18:19 | it gives me some brief message about something on port 9751 or so giving an ECONN, but I can't read it in time
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| 18:19 | when ldm starts
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| 18:24 | <fiesh> oh wow, password authentication was turned off, it works :)
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| 18:25 | <stevecook> Hello. Steve cook here with a recent and sucessful setup of LTSP with a couple of clients (for the moment) thanks to a member here who gave me some advice the other day...continued....
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| 18:26 | <fiesh> now to change the bit depth from 16 to 32... no clue why 16 is the default here?!
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| 18:26 | <stevecook> I have a secondary issue i need to resolve. This involves the internet connection of my fat lients. At the moment, users have to manually connect to the wireless network each time they log on with the router password. I am wanting the clients ot have this autiomatically at logon. Any advice how to achieve this?
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| 18:32 | <Hyperbyte> fiesh, for thin clients, it saves a lot of bandwidth.
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| 18:32 | <stevecook> I should note, this requirement to manaulyl connect to the internet is not required for the thin client. That, and lots of other reasons relatesd to lowrr maintainence, cause me to ostensibly prefer thin clinets to fat one. The only problem being with streaming video quality. whioch on thin clients is unnaceptably bad. ....cont...
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| 18:33 | <Hyperbyte> stevecook, I'm curious - do your fat clients connect to the LTSP server via wifi?
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| 18:33 | <stevecook> with that in mind, I might as well also ask if it is possible to have a client that is thin in all regards except for their internet conenction. That is to saym, a thin client that gets its own independant interent connection and so has all of the streaming video quality of a fat client? Is tjhis possible?
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| 18:33 | My fat clients connect vie ethernet, but have their own wifi cars in them
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| 18:34 | <Hyperbyte> stevecook, problem is that thin clients stream their display over the network, not the content. Fat clients stream content, thin clients stream display.
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| 18:34 | So let's say you play a low definition video... the video is only 32mb total...
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| 18:35 | But then you play it fullscreen at 1980x1200 resolution and suddenly you have a live HD video stream, uncompressed, crawling across your network
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| 18:35 | So the issue isn't the internet connection, the issue is the concept of thin clients.
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| 18:35 | There are lots of things you can do to remedy it though.
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| 18:36 | <stevecook> Ah...brilliant...go on..:)#
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| 18:36 | <Hyperbyte> Installing an xvideo plugin in Firefox and using HTML5 playback, running the browser as a local application instead of a server one...
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| 18:41 | <stevecook> I've just typed xvideo in the addons page and it came up with various video downloaders. Is that what you meant? down;oad the video locally first?
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| 18:43 | I should explain, I need my clients ot be able to live stream in full screen things like BBC iplayer
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| 18:44 | My fat clients do this with no problem with their own interent connection. but my thin clinetsd are currently hopeless at it
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| 18:45 | <Hyperbyte> Thin clients run the browser on the server, and stream the browser window to the client.
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| 18:46 | So any content you play in the browser that generates a lot of changing pixels, requires a lot of bandwidth on your local network between server and client. It is not internet connection related.
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| 18:46 | There is _nothing_ you can do to effectively remedy that in all situations.
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| 18:47 | <stevecook> so, my choice of at clients is the correct and only avasilable remidy then?
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| 18:47 | <Hyperbyte> No, there are workarounds.
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| 18:48 | But you have to understand the concept that, no matter what you put on the desktop of a thin client - if it updates a lot of pixels quickly and constantly, then it is going to use up a lot of bandwith on the local network.
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| 18:48 | As in, an incredible lot.
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| 18:48 | <stevecook> Please explain them in detail. I need specific step by step instructions i am afraid. sorry about that, but this is completey new to me
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| 18:49 | so, as i said, fat cleitns are the only remidy then? yes?
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| 18:49 | <Hyperbyte> !localapps
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| 18:49 | <ltsp`> localapps: to access a tutorial on setting up localapps on jaunty, see https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/LTSPLocalAppsJaunty
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| 18:49 | <Hyperbyte> Hrm, that's not really useful.
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| 18:50 | But Google LTSP localapps a bit. It enables you to run some applications locally on the client (like a fat client would), on thin clients.
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| 18:51 | You could run the browser as a local application, so the video plays locally and doesn't have to be streamed. This could or not be an ideal solution for you.
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| 18:51 | <stevecook> But, from what I have understood from what you are saying, the onl;y way I get round the problem of huge amounts of video data crawling over the ltsp wires is to circumvent that by having such data fed directly to the client via its own internet connection, yes?
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| 18:52 | <Hyperbyte> stevecook, if you mean, by running the browser locally and having it access the internet via the thin client's connection, then yes.
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| 18:52 | Of course if you must have internet go through server, you could route or even proxy it.
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| 18:53 | <stevecook> Can I run the browser and internet connectiont that ostensibly feeds it locally on a thin client?
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| 18:53 | <Hyperbyte> Sure.
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| 18:53 | <stevecook> but leave all other aspects of the thin client running as a thin client normally would?
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| 18:54 | Becasue that sounds like perfection
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| 18:54 | <Hyperbyte> Meh... it can bring in some other problems
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| 18:55 | Things you have to take into account
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| 18:55 | <stevecook> oh bugger...lol....what are those thingS?
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| 18:55 | <Hyperbyte> Like, the local Firefox not having access to -all- data on the server. Let's say you mount a /data/ partition on the server, it won't be available on the client. Of course you can make it available on the client by other means, but those are all things you might have to take into account.
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| 18:56 | Same with printers, you have to configure printers on server and client, else Firefox won't have a printer to print to.
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| 18:56 | Also you'll have to 'hack' the server a bit to run Firefox locally whenever it is started, via a clicked link or something... there's lots of ways to start a browser
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| 18:56 | <stevecook> For the moment, with my current level of expertise (or, rather, lack of), a fat client solution sounds like my best short to medium term solution....cont...
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| 18:57 | <Hyperbyte> Those are all things you have to take into account. Of course you can get help with it all here, but I wouldn't call the solution perfection.
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| 18:57 | <stevecook> In whoch cas,e, i come back to my original question of how to get my fat clients to automaticalyl log into the wifi without the need to manualyl entter the wifi password
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| 18:58 | <Hyperbyte> I've actually installed Cisco gigabit switches and three Intel NICs in my server, trunked them together to one 3 gigabit interface and now YouTube videos play quite okay actually, as long as I don't zoom in, play them hi-res or fullscreen.
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| 18:58 | Still far from perfect, but at least it works, so it's no longer my problem. :-)
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| 18:59 | <stevecook> Ah, that's the problem though, for me, i need things like iplayer to play at full screen. That's just a no go with thin clients in my current situation
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| 19:00 | a fat client solution is fuine by me cos i have used it and know it works. i just need to solve this issue of the client requiring the internet paswword every time a user logs on. i need to to be connected automatically at logon
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| 19:00 | <Hyperbyte> I've deployed LTSP in an office environment.. it's a bit different situation I think. People don't get paid to watch videos and it's not needed for daily operations, so it's acceptable that it doesn't work 100%.
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| 19:01 | stevecook, well, I don't understand the issue. Explain your situation better. Like I asked, why do the clients need wifi? Don't they have a lan cable to connect to the LTSP server and the internet?
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| 19:02 | <stevecook> My needs for LTSP are both domestic in that I am wanting good quality vid in a number rooms in my home, but also work related. i work in the special needs sector and am about to try and persuade an educational prvidor of the utility of depkyiong LTSP in their schools,. It will be a show stopper if i cant demonstrate reasonable quality streaming fullscreen video
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| 19:04 | many of the pupils access video content on their individual screens and play at their own pace. Some of this video is stored on a central server and some of it streamed off the internet
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| 19:06 | <Hyperbyte> Sounds good. alkisg has LTSP deployed in a whole bunch of Greek schools: http://www.ltsp.org/stories/widget-map/?location=Greece
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| 19:06 | <stevecook> It doesn;t need to be wifi, but form what I have understood form you, it does need to be an independant connection. If it is an ethernet connection, then of course here will be no requirment for a password,. but, in such situations where it is, I need to know how to implement the automation of the password
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| 19:07 | My own domestic situation is indeed wifi for the internet and so, if for no other reason, i am wanting to resolve the wifi password issue on fat clients
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| 19:08 | Wow! Greece has really gone for LTSP in big way! Amazing.
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| 19:08 | <Hyperbyte> :-)
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| 19:08 | <stevecook> I'm guessing economic necessity being the mother of invention?
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| 19:08 | <Hyperbyte> I'm still confused. You have an LTSP server, obviously. How are the clients connected to it?
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| 19:09 | <alkisg> stevecook: are you sure you need a dual nic setup? Maybe a single-nic setup suits you better?
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| 19:10 | Otherwise, you just need to do a connection forwarding (NAT) from your ltsp server to your fat clients, it's just 2 commands
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| 19:10 | !nat
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| 19:10 | <ltsp`> nat: To set up NAT on your LTSP server, see: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/ThinClientHowtoNAT
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| 19:10 | <stevecook> Okay, here is my current setup:....ubuntu mate 64 bit server. This is connected via ethernet powerline adapters to my ring mains. I have three fat client connected to this via their own powerline adapters. all boots up fine and runs well. They all have their own connection to a wifi router that provides the internet. ....
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| 19:11 | <alkisg> The router isn't the main dhcp server?
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| 19:11 | Your ltsp server is?
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| 19:11 | What I'm suggesting is, put everything, the router, the server, the clients in the powerline network, and ignore the wifi network completely
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| 19:11 | That way fat clients will get automatic access to the internet
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| 19:11 | That also means that you won't need a dhcp server in your ltsp server
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| 19:13 | <stevecook> funnily enough, my router is already powerlined into the mian from when I was just using the powerline adapters for the internet alone, prior to setting up ltsp
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| 19:14 | God help me though...I'm going to need some advice here as to how to set ip up as you have described...
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| 19:14 | <alkisg> !ltsp-pnp
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| 19:14 | <ltsp`> ltsp-pnp: ltsp-pnp is an alternative (upstream) method to maintain LTSP installations for thin and fat clients that doesn't involve chroots: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/ltsp-pnp
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| 19:14 | <alkisg> That how-to should cover exactly your use case
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| 19:14 | <stevecook> hi alkisg...your advice was spot on!
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| 19:14 | <alkisg> The problem would be, undoing any changes you might have already done....
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| 19:15 | <stevecook> not a problem, i can start again.....all part of the larning curve
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| 19:16 | is this the same askisg that helped me the other day?
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| 19:19 | <alkisg> Yes
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| 19:19 | <stevecook> gotta go for a bit and do some jobs, will pop back on later. Thanks for the advice so far folks
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| 19:20 | your advice the other day worked immediately alkisg. Thanks again
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| 19:21 | also, thanks for the advice today Hyperbyte
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| 19:57 | <bradman> I'm trying to set up raspi-ltsp and the pi is stuck on a rainbow screen.
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| 20:00 | <alkisg> !pi
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| 20:00 | <ltsp`> Error: "pi" is not a valid command.
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| 20:00 | <alkisg> !rpi
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| 20:00 | <ltsp`> I do not know about 'rpi', but I do know about these similar topics: 'r'
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| 20:00 | <alkisg> !raspberry
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| 20:00 | <ltsp`> I do not know about 'raspberry', but I do know about these similar topics: 'raspberrypi'
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| 20:01 | <alkisg> !raspberrypi
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| 20:01 | <ltsp`> raspberrypi: (#1) LTSP with raspberry pi: http://cascadia.debian.net/trenza/Documentation/raspberrypi-ltsp-howto/, or (#2) To use a similar environment to LTSP on the raspberry pi http://berryterminal.com/, or (#3) https://github.com/gbaman/RaspberryPi-LTSP, or (#4) https://pi-ltsp.net
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| 20:18 | <vagrantc> would be nice to teach the bot synonyms
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| 20:33 | <fiesh> oh, something I meant to ask... does anyone know of thin clients that can do a 4K resolution besides the new upcoming intel nucs? I think I'll get a bunch of those, but other ideas are welcome
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| 20:39 | <alkisg> !4k
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| 20:39 | <ltsp`> 4k: Imagine a 4k display updated at 60 fps. It needs 3840×2160×32×60 bits per second, i.e. 16 gbps. Normal HD displays need 4 gbps. Thin clients will have much trouble getting all that through the local network...
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| 20:39 | <alkisg> ...use ltsp fat clients for 4k, not thins... :)
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| 20:41 | <fiesh> hmmm
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| 20:43 | naturally, this assumes a full screen refresh at 60Hz, like playing a movie, which is not really what most people need
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| 21:06 | * vagrantc finds the discussion of 4k screens with need and a little funny | |
| 21:07 | <vagrantc> fiesh: short answer is, don't shoot yourself in the foot with unrealistic expectations
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| 21:09 | ltsp fat clients are generally a better way to go anyways
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| 21:09 | if we ever get around to ltsp6, it's likely to be the default, and thin clients the unusual use-case.
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| 21:46 | <alkisg> fiesh: scrolling a window needs a lot of fps too, and that's very common for many applications, like firefox, libreoffice, gedit etc
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| 21:47 | <josefa> buenas tardes
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| 21:47 | ocupo ayuda urgente para configurar epoptes
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| 21:47 | alguien me puede ayudar soy nuevo en esto
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| 21:48 | <alkisg> josefa: english?
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| 21:52 | <josefa> a little if
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| 21:53 | my problem is that I configured epoptes of first me it worked very well without emargo now I no longer detects any client
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