IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.libera.chat (webchat)
Channel log from 25 July 2013 (all times are UTC)
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| 05:52 | <mnemoc> moin
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| 09:30 | <User_4574> Good morning
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| 09:47 | <alkisg> Good morning
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| 09:47 | <User_4574> hi
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| 09:51 | i have a question regarding shells
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| 09:51 | I would prefer to use FISh over BASh, but LTSP just blackscreens and returns to the login page when I attempt to log in
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| 09:52 | Is there some magic I can wrangle here?
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| 09:57 | <alkisg> So, when you change a user's login shell, that user cannot longer login with LTSP?
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| 09:57 | You're not changing the /bin/sh symlink, are you?
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| 09:58 | <User_4574> nope
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| 09:58 | chsh -s /usr/bin/fish
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| 09:59 | <alkisg> And after that the user cannot longer login?
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| 09:59 | <User_4574> exactly. When they enter their username and password, they get a blank screen for a few seconds and then are returned to the login page
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| 10:00 | <alkisg> And, does `ssh user@server` from another PC work at that point?
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| 10:02 | <User_4574> it does
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| 10:03 | <alkisg> So it appears that some of the ltsp scripts have problems with the user login shell
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| 10:03 | Can you try LOCAL_APPS=False in lts.conf, then reboot the client, and try to login?
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| 10:04 | ...to see if the problem is caused by the localapps code?
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| 10:05 | <User_4574> can i restrict that to one machine?
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| 10:05 | <alkisg> [mac:address]
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| 10:05 | LOCAL_APPS=False
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| 10:08 | <User_4574> Thanks
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| 10:08 | I'll try it in a minute or so, I'm doing this amongst work
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| 10:08 | <alkisg> np, same here for most of us :)
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| 10:58 | <User_4574> I'm back
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| 10:58 | No such luck, that didn't work for me
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| 11:12 | <alkisg> File a bug report then:
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| 11:12 | !ltsp-bug
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| 11:12 | <ltsp> ltsp-bug: To file a bug report for upstream LTSP, go to https://bugs.launchpad.net/ltsp
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| 14:33 | <dnordel> hi guys
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| 14:34 | anyone feel like answering a question?
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| 14:44 | <||cw> only if i know the answer.... which you should just ask the question first
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| 14:45 | <workingcats> dnordel, don't ask to ask, just ask ;)
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| 15:02 | <Hyperbyte> !ask | echo dnordel
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| 15:02 | <ltsp> dnordel ask: Don't ask to ask a question, simply ask it, and if someone knows the answer, they'll respond. Please hang around for at least a full hour after asking a question, as not everybody constantly monitors the channel.
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| 15:03 | <Hyperbyte> :-D
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| 15:11 | <dnordel> haha sorry guys, ok so here is the question: are any of you familiar with Ncomputing thin clients?
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| 15:11 | my parents own a preschool, and years ago they purchased Ncomputing devices, and I HATE them =/
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| 15:12 | * alkisg has seen many people here switching from ncomputing to ltsp... | |
| 15:12 | <dnordel> i am wondering if you can flash different software to the devices
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| 15:12 | or do we just have to get new devices
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| 15:12 | ?
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| 15:13 | <alkisg> I don't think they are "real" clients... but I've never seen one so I'm not sure
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| 15:13 | I.e I think they're designed to only work with ncomputing hardware+software on the server side
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| 15:13 | <dnordel> i figured
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| 15:14 | any suggestions on the most economic choice for thin clients? we only really need to run gcompris and maybe internet access
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| 15:15 | ethernet wired
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| 15:15 | <Hyperbyte> dnordel, where are you located?
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| 15:15 | <dnordel> California
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| 15:15 | <Hyperbyte> You could have a look at www.disklessworkstations.com for some clients that are known to work fine with LTSP/Linux
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| 15:16 | Then again, any plain ol' thin client should do.
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| 15:16 | <dnordel> yeah, i didnt think gcompris would really require much
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| 15:16 | thank you for you help hyperbyte and alkisg
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| 15:17 | <alkisg> np - note that you might want to buy fat clients (more ram) for schools
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| 15:17 | E.g. clients with 1 Gb ram can run multimedia apps like gcompris and browsers much better than 128 mb ram clients
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| 15:17 | <workingcats> dnordel, you should be able to get computers that are easily powerful enough to run as fat client for free or very cheap
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| 15:18 | but the electricity use will ofc be in a different league
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| 15:18 | <dnordel> we dont have a lot of room in the computer lab
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| 15:18 | we have the server already, so...
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| 15:18 | we only have 6 computer stations too
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| 15:19 | <||cw> dnordel: hm, the Lseries seem to use this http://www.tgdaily.com/hardware-features/48993-ambidextrous-system-on-chip-spotted-in-the-wild
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| 15:19 | <Hyperbyte> dnordel, it all depends on what's important for you. Lots of people choose thin clients because of the money they can save... we chose them mainly because it takes away a lot of warmth & noise from our desks
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| 15:20 | Others choose fat clients because they already have PC's and don't wanna buy fat....
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| 15:20 | Your choice should really depend on your goals.
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| 15:20 | <||cw> thin clients also require a beefier server
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| 15:21 | <dnordel> money is the most important right now, and, now that you mention it, the heat would be an issue with the lab's current location
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| 15:21 | as i said, we only need to be able to run gcompris...
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| 15:21 | dont know if that makes a difference
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| 15:21 | <||cw> I don't know its requirements on cpu and ram
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| 15:22 | <Hyperbyte> dnordel, choose between thin and fat first.
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| 15:22 | Fat clients use client hardware to run programs, not server. Thin uses server hardware to run programs, and transmits the desktop over network.
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| 15:22 | <||cw> actually, some $50 P4's would name decent fat clients
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| 15:23 | <Hyperbyte> Yeah, but if he has a good server with enough power for run gcompris X times, he could get away with thin probably. :)
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| 15:23 | <alkisg> People say "I just want my clients to be able to run a browser", thinking that's very light on resources... while watching a youtube video on a single thin client might need 2.5 Gbps bandwidth
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| 15:23 | <dnordel> if think clients are the cheaper solution (since we have our server) then we would go with thin clients
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| 15:23 | <Hyperbyte> dnordel, what are your server specs?
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| 15:23 | <dnordel> one sec
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| 15:24 | <workingcats> dnordel, used desktops are (much) cheaper than less powerful new thin clients. ofc you could try to get used thin clients, combining the advantages of both, sorta ;)
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| 15:25 | <||cw> that's rare, used thin clients are often very low performance
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| 15:25 | <dnordel> intel Pentium D 2.8ghz, 2 gb ram, 80 gb hard drive
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| 15:25 | <||cw> because other than a device failing, low performance is the only reason to replace one
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| 15:25 | <Hyperbyte> dnordel, and how many clients are you planning to run on there?
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| 15:25 | <dnordel> 6
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| 15:26 | <||cw> double the ram and it might do OK
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| 15:26 | <dnordel> ok
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| 15:26 | np
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| 15:26 | <||cw> maybe
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| 15:26 | what are you running on that now?
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| 15:26 | <dnordel> it was running with the Ncomputing hardware/software
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| 15:26 | <||cw> what OS? windows?
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| 15:26 | <dnordel> dual booting window/linux
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| 15:27 | the clients connect to linux
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| 15:27 | have to use windows to configure them...
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| 15:27 | it is SO stupid
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| 15:27 | <||cw> lxde or something? 2GB is easy to peg with a single login
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| 15:28 | <dnordel> ubuntu
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| 15:28 | the ncomputing crap says it works with ubuntu
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| 15:29 | ubuntu 12.04 lts
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| 15:29 | if you were wondering
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| 15:31 | <dnordel> HEY! If we do end up replacing these Ncomputing devices, would anyone here like one to play around with?
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| 15:32 | <Hyperbyte> dnordel, why don't you open one up?
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| 15:32 | See if there's some flash memory in there which you can replace.
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| 15:32 | Or, attach a bootable USB stick... see if you can boot from USB somehow
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| 15:33 | <dnordel> thats a good idea... i might be able to
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| 15:33 | <Hyperbyte> You could use them for LTSP then even.
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| 15:33 | <||cw> or find some test points to get a serial console on the bootloader
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| 15:33 | <Hyperbyte> dnordel, what do those ncomputing clients do without a network connection?
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| 15:34 | <||cw> bootbale USB ins't likely to work that easily. it seems to be a dual core ARm from what I'ev read, if it's an L series
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| 15:34 | <Hyperbyte> Ooooh
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| 15:34 | <dnordel> yes it is an L 230
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| 15:35 | <||cw> what I'd so is look for the update image in your XP partition and see if it's linux based
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| 15:35 | if it is, it can likely be hacked
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| 15:35 | <Hyperbyte> The word 'arm' in Dutch (my native language) means 'poor' :P
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| 15:35 | <||cw> heh
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| 15:36 | <dnordel> i have the ncomputing software installed for ubuntu, would it be in the linux partion as well?
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| 15:36 | <||cw> yeah, but ARM does have a better power to performance ratio than x86
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| 15:36 | dnordel: not unless you can apply client updates from linux
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| 15:36 | which as I understand, you can't
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| 15:36 | <dnordel> oic
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| 15:36 | ok i will take a look
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| 15:36 | <||cw> but you can browse the nfts partition from linux right?
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| 15:37 | <dnordel> yes
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| 15:38 | <dnordel> so you are talking about the firmware for the clients, right?
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| 15:38 | <||cw> yes
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| 15:39 | it's probably signed and checksummed, so hacks would be difficult, but not impossible
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| 15:39 | <dnordel> i found the boot img, now what?
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| 15:42 | <dnordel> i sincerely doubt it is linux based...
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| 15:43 | they never had support for linux until a couple years ago
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| 15:46 | <robson> hello, what is the default username and password for ltsp?
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| 15:47 | <ogra_> robson, whatever you created on the server :)
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| 15:48 | <robson> hi ogra_, i installed ltsp on raspberry
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| 15:48 | <ogra_> well, it needs a server to log in to
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| 15:49 | <robson> ok...
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| 15:49 | <ogra_> and you need to use the user accounts on the server
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| 15:49 | no idea how that works on RPi since LTSP means no local install usually
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| 15:49 | <robson> ok, i ll choose another image
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| 15:49 | thx
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| 15:50 | <ogra_> so whoever created what you use must have hacked it up ... ask the person that did that
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| 15:51 | <Hyperbyte> Since you guys are obvious bash hackers, I have a question. I have the string: /directory/subdir/filename I want to extract 'subdir' and 'filename' into variables. How do I do this?
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| 15:52 | <ogra_> x="1/2 3/4"
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| 15:52 | rightofslash=${x##*/}
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| 15:52 | leftofslash=${x%%/*}
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| 15:52 | firstword=${x%% *}
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| 15:52 | lastword=${x##* }
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| 15:52 | <Hyperbyte> Right. And the middle word?
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| 15:52 | rightofslash twice? :P
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| 15:53 | <ogra_> rightofslash=${x##*/} ; evenmorerightofslash=${rightofslash##*/}
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| 15:53 | yeah :)
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| 15:53 | <Hyperbyte> Right... heh
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| 15:53 | <alkisg> s=/directory/subdir/filename; f=${s##*/}; d=${s%/$f}; d=${d##*/}; echo $f, $d
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| 15:53 | <ogra_> allternatively look at awk
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| 15:53 | or sed
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| 15:54 | there are a million of ways :)
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| 15:54 | <Hyperbyte> Well awk would be nicest I think.
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| 15:54 | But 'awk' is kind of close to the sound I make whenever I read it's documentation or just see examples.
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| 15:54 | * ogra_ usually prefers sed ... but its reallly a matter of taste | |
| 15:55 | <alkisg> There's also: basename "$x"
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| 15:55 | ...if you're looking for code readability rather than performance
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| 15:56 | <alkisg> basename "/directory/subdir/filename" and basename "$(dirname "/directory/subdir/filename")"
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| 15:58 | <Hyperbyte> You are mad hacker you!
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| 16:00 | <workingcats> Hyperbyte, same in german (arm=poor)
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| 16:00 | it also means arm (as in what your hand attaches to, like in english)
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| 16:00 | <dnordel> LOL
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| 16:03 | <||cw> dnordel: so now, the hacking begins. you have ot find what kind of image it is, and see if it can mounted and edited, or if it needs extracted and rebuilt
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| 16:03 | dnordel: I did say not easy right?
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| 16:04 | <workingcats> ||cw, sounds like fun tho
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| 16:04 | <||cw> yes
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| 16:04 | also, just because they dont' support linux, doens't mean the device ins't linux based
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| 16:04 | <workingcats> yep
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| 16:04 | <||cw> it just means it's be trimmed and customized
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| 16:05 | <workingcats> take vmware. only client they offer is windows
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| 16:05 | and recently a web client but apparently that is not equal in features
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| 16:05 | <||cw> yeah, and the older esx is RHEL based
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| 16:05 | <workingcats> unfortunately we are on esx 4.1 where they dont even have a crippled web client
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| 16:05 | <||cw> esxi is not, but it does use busybox and a lot of libc and a few gnu untils
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| 16:06 | <workingcats> esxi isnt linux based, or isnt rhel based?
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| 16:07 | <||cw> both
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| 16:08 | <workingcats> hm wiki disagrees
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| 16:08 | Up through the current ESX version 5.1, a Linux kernel is started first,[10] and is used to load a variety of specialized virtualization components, including VMware's vmkernel component. This previously booted Linux kernel then becomes the first running virtual machine and is called the service console.
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| 16:09 | <||cw> it does use some linux driver code, but all other linux resemblance is provided via busybox, libc, and a port of freebsd's linux-elf comparability layer
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| 16:09 | link?
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| 16:09 | there is no esx 5.1, only esxi 5.1
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| 16:13 | <workingcats> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ESXi
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| 16:13 | well if that description there is correct it boots linux
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| 16:14 | this then boots "vmkernel" which takes over
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| 16:14 | <||cw> that contradicts a latter section http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ESXi#VMware_ESXi
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| 16:14 | <workingcats> ie linux is basically a glorified bootloader
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| 16:14 | <||cw> "VMware ESXi is a smaller footprint version of ESX that does not include ESX's Service Console"
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| 16:15 | <workingcats> yep you're right
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| 16:15 | <||cw> it's poor writing. esx boots a linux kernel first, esxi does not.
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| 16:16 | however, esxi's installer is linux.
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| 16:16 | <workingcats> well thats different
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| 16:16 | <||cw> yeah
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| 16:16 | but point stands, linux based does not mean linux support automatically
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| 16:17 | <workingcats> but this is crazy. who on earth would think "hey, you know what, im gonna start maintaining all drivers myself now!"
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| 16:17 | oh yeah absolutely
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| 16:17 | <||cw> they were doing that anyway
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| 16:17 | <workingcats> i have to use windows to root my mum's android
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| 16:17 | there's still a huge difference between the RHEL model (fork an old kernel, then backport updates, and repeat this process 3 years later) and doing everything yourself
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| 16:17 | <||cw> the rhel console is a virtual machine too, with special drivers to interface with the hypervisor drivers
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| 16:18 | so it was actually double the work
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| 16:19 | a posix emulation layer with a busybox based service running directly on the hypervisors microkernel is actually a lot less work
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| 16:20 | and busybox is probably charging them less than rh was for support and porting assistance
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| 16:20 | <workingcats> busybox doesnt talk to network or sata chips tho ;)
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| 16:25 | <ltsp-thin-slow-b> as my nickname respresents my ltsp clients(zotac) are really slow while booting i think it's the image that's too large, how can i shrink the image?
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| 16:27 | <alkisg> ltsp-thin-slow-b: the image size doesn't matter for booting
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| 16:28 | What are the client specs? cpu, ram, network speed?
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| 16:28 | Also, are you using nbd or nfs? Compressed nbd or not?"
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| 16:29 | <||cw> workingcats: right, the hypervisor does
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| 16:29 | and always has.
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| 16:29 | <workingcats> ||cw, yep, which is where the driver issue comes in
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| 16:29 | i mean they had their own scheduler and FS for quite some time
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| 16:29 | <||cw> and their own drivers
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| 16:30 | storage and lan were always their own drivers
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| 16:30 | <workingcats> i guess thats the part i find truly nuts
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| 16:31 | <||cw> is it? dell and hp and ibm windows servers use intel and lsi chipsets but they maintain their own driver for them
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| 16:31 | I dont' see the difference
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| 16:32 | in fact, it's dell and hp and lsi that maintain their esxi drivers and submit them to vmwre as well
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| 16:34 | <workingcats> well if you're ok with your OS only working on hardware by 3 makers i guess its perfectly viable
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| 16:34 | and i guess vmware is ok with that
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| 16:34 | the 3 being an exaggeration ofc but you'll never get anywhere near the sort of hw support of even a BSD
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| 16:37 | <gdi2k> hi all. I have LDM_DIRECTX = True in my lts.conf, but today it doesn't seem to be working for some reason - I can see every session is running via SSH, and the users are complaining about slowness. Normally it works fine - any ideas?
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| 16:37 | <||cw> just saying, vmware doens't write all the drivers
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| 16:55 | <gdi2k> kirby, you should pause when going on break - you've left it in a dead call, which will make your stats look bad
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| 16:55 | <alkisg> gdi2k: echo $DISPLAY on a logged in thin client
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| 16:57 | <gdi2k> :50.0
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| 16:57 | <alkisg> Which distro/version?
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| 16:58 | <gdi2k> it's ubuntu (xubuntu), version 12.10
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| 16:58 | <alkisg> !screen_02
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| 16:58 | <ltsp> screen_02: To get a root shell on an Ubuntu thin client: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/ClientTroubleshooting#Using_a_shell_SCREEN
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| 16:58 | <alkisg> From there, type getltscfg -a
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| 16:59 | <gdi2k> no way to do it remotely? I'm not onsite
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| 17:00 | ah yes, troubleshooting via ssh, see it now...
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| 17:05 | <imox> ok I'm back :D how can I change my boot screen ;) I tried it yesterday but it will not work ;(
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| 17:10 | <vagrantc> LDM_THEME=NAME where /opt/ltsp/i386/usr/share/ldm/themes/NAME exists and contains the right content
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| 17:10 | or if it's in your NBD image
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| 17:11 | on debian-based systems, you can use update-alternatives, but that requires rebuilding the image to change the theme, and is a bit cumbersome
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| 17:11 | <imox> yes I have ubuntu
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| 17:13 | vagrantc: I treid with LDM_THEME=NAME but it dosnt work. I already change the symlink from the default to my new folder but alos no effect
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| 17:14 | <vagrantc> maybe your new folder doesn't have valid content?
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| 17:14 | <imox> hmm no
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| 17:14 | <vagrantc> although changing the default symlink should at least cause the theme to break
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| 17:14 | <imox> I have this bootlogo when I start the server
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| 17:14 | its the same folder
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| 17:14 | if I start the image I have another boot screen
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| 17:15 | <vagrantc> and you've gotten this logo to work as an LDM theme?
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| 17:15 | <imox> ?
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| 17:15 | <alkisg> The LDM theme doesn't affect the plymouth splash screen, does it?
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| 17:15 | <vagrantc> how do you know it's valid if you've never gotten it to work?
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| 17:15 | <imox> ok
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| 17:15 | then I don't know ;)
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| 17:16 | what I should do now ;)?
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| 17:18 | <alkisg> Are you talking about the plymouth splash: http://www.tux-planet.fr/public/images/screenshots/distributions/ubuntu/ubuntu-10.04/ubuntu-10.04-lucid-lynx-plymouth.png
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| 17:18 | Or about LDM? https://www.stgraber.org/download/images/ldm-natty.png
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| 17:18 | <vagrantc> you sure the image you're updating is the image that's booting?
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| 17:18 | <imox> yes
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| 17:19 | <vagrantc> how?
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| 17:19 | <imox> plymouth splash
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| 17:20 | <alkisg> Install the plymouth-theme-ubuntu-logo package in the chroot
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| 17:20 | (or xubuntu or whatever else you want)
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| 17:21 | That's not related to LTSP, btw
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| 17:22 | <gdi2k> alkisg, I managed to execute getltscfg -a on a client. LDM_DIRECTX = "True" is present in the config
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| 17:22 | http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/6525/kaf2.png
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| 17:23 | <alkisg> Hehe, epoptes :)
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| 17:23 | <gdi2k> yes, couldn't get ssh to work on the client
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| 17:23 | epoptes is great
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| 17:24 | <alkisg> I'm not sure what goes wrong there, LDM_DIRECTX appears to be True and yet the DISPLAY is wrong? Unless you somehow got the wrong DISPLAY...
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| 17:24 | <imox> but I see the ubuntu I want the xubuntu :D
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| 17:24 | <alkisg> gdi2k: echo $DISPLAY there, on the epoptes window
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| 17:25 | imox: then install the plymouth-theme-xubuntu-logo package in the chroot
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| 17:25 | <gdi2k> heh, now it's 7
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| 17:25 | :7
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| 17:25 | so now it's working
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| 17:26 | <alkisg> Yup
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| 17:26 | And if you e.g. broadcast something with epoptes, and run `top` on the server, you shouldn't be seeing much CPU usage from sshd processes
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| 17:29 | <gdi2k> kirby, on a dead call, browsing (bidding)
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| 17:29 | please don't
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| 17:30 | <imox> thanks it works :
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| 17:30 | * vagrantc wonders what's all this stuff about kirby | |
| 17:31 | <gdi2k> opos
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| 17:31 | wrong window lol
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| 17:37 | alkisg, thanks for your help, looks like some of the clients didn't boot with the correct options. rebooting affected clients seems to be working.
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| 17:37 | <alkisg> Maybe a broken lts.conf (syntax error etc)....
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| 17:38 | <gdi2k> look ok? http://pastebin.com/m15mDZM5
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| 17:42 | <alkisg> No, not now that getltscfg -a worked, I was talking about the previous client boot, in case lts.conf was changed between boots...
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| 17:45 | <gdi2k> I see - I only added the SCREEN lines since last reboot. anyway, it's working for now, thanks
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| 20:06 | <kev_j> anyone have any recommendations on a sip phone for xfce / lxde?
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| 20:37 | <Hyperbyte> kev_j, www.sflphone.org
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| 20:37 | Not sure if it runs on xfce or lxde though
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| 21:08 | <kev_j> I tried that one and couldnt seem to get the audio to work for it
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| 21:09 | it didn't have any audio device selection in the settings (that I could find)
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| 21:09 | I am trying to get jitsi to work, but it seems screwy...
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| 21:18 | <||cw> fat client?
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| 21:18 | sip over thin client I don't see being reliable
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| 21:38 | <kev_j> it seems to be working fairly well when I get the sound working properly... getting there can be a bit of a bitch though
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| 21:39 | it's a usb dongle to a headset (wired) and everytime I restart it resets back to the built in audio...
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| 21:40 | <vagrantc> we probably need to use udev to fire off our sound handling...
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| 21:40 | back when we wrote the sound stuff, i don't think we thought about usb audio devices... i.e. hotpluggable devices
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| 21:41 | most things are fired off from udev now, with a few exceptions
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| 21:42 | <kev_j> would that be something I could tweak or would that most likely be over my head?
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| 21:44 | <vagrantc> we would welcome another developer! :)
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| 21:45 | it involves a fair amount of plumbing :)
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| 21:46 | <kev_j> crapity... I would be more than willing, but I don't think I have anywhere near enough experience... I started messing with linux 2 years ago and mainly trying to learn administration stuffs
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| 21:47 | <vagrantc> no way to learn like practical application :)
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| 21:51 | <kev_j> well where would I start? that's how I got this far, so can't hurt to try...
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