IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.libera.chat (webchat)

Channel log from 23 October 2008 (all times are UTC)

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00:02	<wpgmb> thin clients have sound, but no volume control. What do I need to change?
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02:06	<alkisg2> !docu
02:06	<ltspbot> alkisg2: Error: "docu" is not a valid command.
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02:06	<alkisg2> !doco
02:06	<ltspbot> alkisg2: "doco" is you can find the link to the latest, and most current upstream documentation at: http://wiki.ltsp.org/twiki/bin/view/Ltsp/LtspDocumentationUpstream
02:06	alkisg2 is now known as alkisg
02:06	<alkisg> !lts.conf
02:07	<ltspbot> alkisg: "lts.conf" is http://wiki.ltsp.org/twiki/bin/view/Ltsp/LtsConf
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05:17	<Hyperbyte> vnc-ltsp-config rpm doesn't seem to work on Fedora 9 for me... when I VNC to the server all I get is a grey screen... any ideas what's going wrong?
05:45	<Appiah> Anyone got a few pointers on how to "tweak" ltsp ? When all clients are connected some slowdowns occur , and I dont really wanna remove gnome and insert something smaller (Ice/Xfce/etc)
05:52	<Nubae> Appiah: u can begin by making LDM_DIRECTX=True
05:52	that will make X accept requests directly, instead of via ssh (encryption slows stuff down)
05:59	<warren> Hyperbyte: you likely need to reconfigure gdm to allow XDMCP
05:59	Hyperbyte: (search google for how)
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06:04	<Appiah> Nubae: oh , did not now about that one
06:04	know*
06:06	<Hyperbyte> warren: I did, added Enabled=True under [xdmcp] section in /etc/gdm/custom.conf...
06:06	warren: if gdm does xdmcp properly, should it listen on UDp port 177?
06:06	<warren> Hyperbyte: it has been years since I have used XDMCP....
06:07	Hyperbyte: try turning off your firewall too
06:07	Hyperbyte: also there might be a separate "tcp" protocol thing turned off
06:07	Hyperbyte: did you restart gdm after editing the config?
06:08	<Hyperbyte> warren: restarted the whole machine...
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06:13	<Hyperbyte> warren: now that I have your ear, I have another question... in a previous version there was a root terminal in screen 2.. (CTRL+ALT+F2)...
06:13	<warren> it should still be there unless you turned it off
06:14	/var/lib/tftpboot/ltsp/i386/lts.conf
06:14	I am turning it off by default soon.
06:14	<Hyperbyte> Well it's definitely a different version I have...
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06:14	<Hyperbyte> Before I had login screen with yellow letters and blue background... now I have login screen with gradient background and K12 Linux logo
06:15	Since then terminal disappeared...
06:15	SCREEN_02=shell in lts.conf doesn't bring it back either.
06:15	* warren tests it...
06:15	<warren> what do you see if you CTRL-ALT-F1?
06:15	text?
06:15	<Hyperbyte> Yep, startup stuf
06:15	*stuff
06:16	Nothing interactive.
06:16	<warren> hold, testing it on my system
06:16	working here
06:16	<Hyperbyte> SCREEN_02=shell in lts.conf?
06:16	Is all?
06:17	<ogra> no
06:17	you need at least a [default] section header
06:17	<warren> your lts.conf is blank!?
06:18	<Hyperbyte> Of course not
06:18	I meant SCREEN_02=shell is enough to get a shell in screen 2 normally...
06:18	<warren> it is working here
06:18	are you sure your chroot is complete? try blowing it away and create a new one
06:19	<Hyperbyte> http://www.recreatie-zorg.nl/lts.conf
06:22	* Hyperbyte runs ltsp-build-client again
06:37	<Hyperbyte> warren: still no terminal. :\|
06:39	<warren> I have no idea then
06:40	Hyperbyte: oh, one possibility is that it is failing to download lts.conf from the server and it is falling back to defaults
06:40	<ogra> you should see inetd errors in the logs for tht though
06:41	or tftp ones
06:43	<Hyperbyte> warren: anyway I can test if it reads lts.conf?
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07:19	<tostado> hi
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07:20	<tostado> i just realized the with ltsp, every process is ran on the server. i want to run some (cpu-intense) processes on the client itself, is this possible with ltsp ?
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07:21	<tostado> or am a completely wrong with ltsp and have to look for another project
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07:21	<Hyperbyte> tostado: very possible. Have a look at LTSP local apps.
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07:21	<tostado> hyperbyte: where ?
07:22	<Hyperbyte> If you enter LOCAL_APPS=Y in lts.conf you can use the command "ltsp-localapps <command>" to execute commands on the client
07:22	You could test this with "ltsp-localapps /usr/bin/xterm", for example
07:23	<tostado> ok, but how do i start a app from the server on a client ?
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07:23	<Hyperbyte> Above command.
07:24	<tostado> but the above command don't tell on WHICH client i want to start something
07:24	<Hyperbyte> You execute the command on the client
07:25	<tostado> ok, that i did understand, but how could i remotely (from the server) start an lokal app. on a certain client ?
07:25	<Hyperbyte> That I don't know.
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07:26	<tostado> can i "login" from the server to a client ? running ssh local on a client?
07:26	<Hyperbyte> I'm not an expert on LTSP, only started using it a few weeks ago. :)
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07:27	<sep> tostado, if you have a password set in your chroot and run ssh on the client yes
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07:28	<tostado> ok, that was maybe what i was looking for. with ssh i than can start local appl. on the clients, i hope
07:29	<sep> tostado, without a clue to how it works i would assume you run that command from a grafical login on the client. so when you run it in X on the server it would check what client you are on and run it there..... ?
07:30	<tostado> hmm.... don't understand
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07:31	<tostado> I'm maybe still a bit confused how ltsp works, i was looking for a solution where EVERYTHING runs on the clients, because i have quadcore cpus on the clients to do the hard work....
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07:32	<ogra> tostado, wait for Nubae to show up, he has a howto for fat clients
07:32	<tostado> so maybe i will think it all over and look for an alternative. because it seems it is possible with ltsp but looks like it's not invented to do so
07:33	ok!
07:33	anyway, what a cool project if anyone is involved in it !
07:34	<ogra> sep, the latest ltsp releases (lenny, intrepid and FC10) all have a new localapp infrastructure by default preinstalled, you only need to install the app inside the chroot and create a special .desktop file ...
07:34	<sep> ogra, awsome, must be tested.
07:35	<ogra> documented first :)
07:35	<sep> :)
07:35	<ogra> i dont think we have proper docs for it yet and not all distros install the server side script in the same places
07:36	(ubuntu ships it in the doc examples, fedora just installs it etc)
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07:37	<tostado> if i want local apps, would it be good if i switch to interpid i.e. bacause of the new localapp infrastructure
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07:40	<highvoltage> ogra: so hardy doesn't have that, right?
07:40	<ogra> right
07:40	<highvoltage> ok
07:40	<ogra> intrepid does
07:40	hardy essentially only has gutsy ltsp with some small changes
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08:00	<tostado> Hyperbyte: I dont't have "ltsp-localapps"
08:01	i put LOCAL_APPS=true in lts.conf, rebooted the client but i cant find ltsp-localapps
08:02	<johnny> it might have the trunk before the name change
08:02	it might still be xrexecd
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08:02	<tostado> nope. even no xrexecd here. i have a fresh install of ubunut hardy ltsp server
08:03	<johnny> no.. it's not on hardy at all
08:03	<tostado> ok...
08:03	:(
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08:03	<johnny> it wasn't even done by the time hardy was released
08:03	<tostado> ok. i will try intrepid
08:03	<johnny> and it's still relatively hard to use in intrepid
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08:03	<johnny> you have to modify the .desktop files yourself
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08:04	* ogra will wrie up a howto once he has time
08:04	<tostado> or could anyone recommend another project which lets the clients run everything ?
08:04	<ogra> *write
08:04	<johnny> tostado, local apps isn't for the clients running everything
08:04	<ogra> tostado, as i said, Nubae wrote a plugin
08:04	<johnny> it's for the client running some things
08:05	<ogra> right
08:05	<johnny> everything.. yes.. nubae did the fat client stuff
08:05	<ogra> what you want are fat clients
08:05	<tostado> yip
08:05	ok. i will wait for him. does he show up often ?
08:05	i need to go ahead...
08:05	<ogra> usually every day
08:05	<tostado> ok
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08:28	<jammcq> g'morning friends
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08:39	<Blinny> Morning
08:41	<cliebow> jammcq:!!!
08:46	<jammcq> hey chuck
08:46	hey Blinny
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08:48	<sbalneav> Morning all
08:48	jammcq: davidj popped in last night to say he wouldn't be at BTS
08:48	<jammcq> oh?
08:48	hmm
08:48	<Nubae> greets...
08:48	<jammcq> oh, btw, Scotty !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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08:49	<sbalneav> hehe
08:49	<Nubae> tostado... there's a plugin here: http://nubae.com/ltsp-linux-terminal-server-project-netbooted-fat-client-for-ubuntu-hardy-and-intrepid
08:50	<sbalneav> Nubae: if it's a plugin, should we commit it upstream, and it becomes part of LTSP?
08:50	!doco
08:50	<ltspbot> sbalneav: "doco" is you can find the link to the latest, and most current upstream documentation at: http://wiki.ltsp.org/twiki/bin/view/Ltsp/LtspDocumentationUpstream
08:50	<Nubae> and a howto if u wanna do it from scratch with ldap here: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/LTSPFatClients
08:51	sbalneav: yes
08:51	should probably be a part of jaunty I guess
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08:51	<Nubae> its ubuntu specific
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08:53	<ogra> sbalneav, it requies ldap setup and tinkers with /etc/sudoers etc
08:55	<sbalneav> Doesn't mean we can't have the plugin THERE, does it? :)
08:56	<johnny> Nubae, you should describe in that post exactly what you get out of those
08:56	Nubae, btw.. it's completely feasible to make some clients fat, and some thin, and some lowfat
08:57	<ogra> sbalneav, i was initially thinking to put it in the extra-plugins in the package, but missed due to being to busy with mobile stuff
08:57	<johnny> on ubuntu/debian and any other distro that does lts.conf in the chroot
08:57	altho.. we would need some more lts.conf vars
08:57	<ogra> sbalneav, as the mythbuntu one which isnt less evil
08:57	<babyhuey> how would i go about setting a program to start when X starts, and not gnome or whatever, just regular X
08:58	<sbalneav> Oh, I'm not saying it has to go in RFN, just that we should get it there eventually, since it's something that people sometimes want.
08:58	<ogra> sbalneav, right
08:58	sbalneav, but since its relying on ubuntu technology it needs to go into the package
08:58	it is on the wiki already though
09:00	<Blinny> babyhuey: You mean when ldm fires?
09:03	<babyhuey> yea
09:04	<Nubae> Nubae: whatcha mean exactly what u get? u mean the programs installed by default?
09:04	I'd hope people can read the script and see that for themselves, otherwise they dont really have business installing it
09:05	<johnny> Nubae, sure.. but maybe people wanna know if it's right for them before trying to download a random script :)
09:05	including myself :)
09:05	<Nubae> :p
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09:06	<Nubae> well, u can change the script quite easily to adapt to whatever packages u want, but I shall ad a list of packages to the post
09:07	I keep seeing people wanting to run thin terminals on machines with less than 64mb.... what kind of solutions have we got for them?
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09:08	<ogra> Nubae, switch to XDMCP ...
09:08	and disable all features
09:08	<sbalneav> yep
09:09	<ogra> SOUND=False, LOCALDEV=False, SCREEN_07=xdmcp
09:09	<Nubae> so xdmcp needs less ram?
09:09	<ogra> in intrepid that should fly ... with compcache by default you should even be able to use that with 48M
09:10	it doesnt run ldm locally, ldm uses abotu 8M
09:10	<johnny> it'd be nice if you could somehow discard ldm
09:10	after log in
09:10	<Nubae> ahhh... now I get it
09:10	<ogra> depending on the theme even more
09:10	<sbalneav> discard ldm?
09:10	<johnny> so it doesn't stay resident
09:10	<sbalneav> It's not very big
09:11	<Nubae> so changing WM should also help right?
09:11	<johnny> 8M is alot on 64..
09:11	<ogra> the greeter dies after login
09:11	<sbalneav> ldm itself is very small. The greeter (which is the graphical bit) exits
09:11	<ogra> so the ram intensice parts are hone
09:11	*gone
09:11	<johnny> oh ok
09:11	<ogra> *intensive
09:11	<johnny> not sure why you mentioned that it uses 8m then?
09:11	because it shoudldn't matter
09:12	<ogra> because you need to boot your 64M client first :)
09:12	<sbalneav> greeter needs about 8 megs
09:12	<Nubae> heh
09:12	<johnny> so.. what else is using up all the ram then?
09:12	<Nubae> gnome
09:12	<johnny> Nubae, he said before log in
09:12	<Nubae> ?
09:12	<johnny> just booting
09:12	<ogra> pulse takes 4M i think, greeter 8M ... localdev about 2M in sum
09:13	<johnny> sure.. but that's only 12 :)
09:13	err
09:13	14
09:13	<ogra> learn counting :P
09:13	<Nubae> he ran out of fingers ;-)
09:13	<ogra> lol
09:13	<sbalneav> X takes about 32
09:13	kernel takes at least 4
09:13	<ogra> more
09:14	<johnny> maybe a stripped down kernel would help then?
09:14	<Nubae> hmmm, be nice to document that somewhere... its nice to know
09:14	<sbalneav> other bits (udev, etc)
09:14	<ogra> depends on the HW your client has and the modules that are loded
09:14	<sbalneav> right
09:14	<ogra> dbus, hal
09:14	<johnny> ogra, that's only in intrepid :)
09:14	<sbalneav> yep, it all costs
09:14	<johnny> maybe a chroot compiled against uclibc?
09:14	<ogra> ugh
09:15	johnny, want to maintain that for five distros ?
09:15	that would get us back to ltsp4
09:15	<johnny> well on gentoo it's only a few extra commands ;)
09:15	<Nubae> johnny: don't cross to the dark side...
09:15	<sbalneav> and another 64 hours
09:15	<johnny> sbalneav, lol
09:16	cgroups in the kernel was screwing me up over the summer
09:16	* Nubae hopes gentoo is not gonna go the kiwi way
09:16	<johnny> Nubae, do you know how we do it now?
09:16	<Nubae> no
09:16	I'm hoping like the other distros
09:16	<johnny> an app called quickstart, which is an automated installer
09:17	Nubae, closer to how warren does it
09:17	except quickstart does more
09:17	<Nubae> ok
09:17	right we spoke about this, took a look at quickstart
09:17	<sbalneav> The simple fact of the matter is, everything in Linux land is using more ram, and by extention, since we use everything from linuxland, we're using more ram too.
09:17	<johnny> Nubae, it's just that i could add two commands to build against uclibc
09:17	<Nubae> yeah, but we loose a lot of users who have massive setups to ltsp 4
09:18	they go backwards cause of this stuff
09:18	<johnny> cross-dev -t i386-pc-linux-uclibc and then set that in the quickstart profile
09:18	and that's all it should theoretically take
09:18	<Nubae> ah ok
09:19	<johnny> Nubae, of course you can also use it to build powerpc chroots that way too
09:19	or arm..
09:19	or whatever..
09:19	<Nubae> hmmm arm, really?
09:20	<johnny> sure.. why not?
09:20	<sbalneav> Nubae: But we'll boot with 64 megs, and NBD_SWAP on
09:20	<johnny> whatever is supported by gcc and glibc should work
09:20	then it's just up the the programs
09:20	<Nubae> just for the kernel then?
09:20	<johnny> huh?
09:20	<Nubae> well, can u get the programs to support arm in the same way?
09:21	<johnny> depends on the program :)
09:21	<Nubae> interesting project...
09:21	<johnny> obviously anything that runs on the various arm devices out there
09:21	which is alot
09:21	openmoko requires almost everything an ltsp chroot requires
09:22	<ltsppbot> "alkisg" pasted "Intrepid ltsp client memory usage" (50 lines) at http://pastebot.ltsp.org/70
09:22	<alkisg> ^^^ ps aux in a client
09:23	<johnny> some of those are obviously too big for what they actually do
09:24	<sbalneav> I suspect the reason why ldmgtkgreet's so friggin big is due to the massive background image.
09:24	Wonder if we shouldn't have an option to have the background be a gradient.
09:24	<alkisg> ldmgreeter could be very smaller if it was using plain X... but who has the stomach for this? :P
09:25	<sbalneav> I got a mini greeter half started.
09:25	<johnny> sbalneav, i saw a program that was simply ssh-askpass full screen
09:25	<sbalneav> I'd be willing to tackle a low end greeter, but first, I'd like to see what having a background gradient would do.
09:26	I bet you'd cut down the ram by half
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09:26	<ltsppbot> "alkisg" pasted "ldmgreeter pmap" (186 lines) at http://pastebot.ltsp.org/71
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09:26	<alkisg> 1376K r-x-- /lib/tls/i686/cmov/libc-2.8.90.so
09:27	...and more below
09:27	3668K r-x-- /usr/lib/libgtk-x11-2.0.so.0.1400.3
09:27	But I think without libc, glib and gtk it will be much harder...
09:28	<sbalneav> Just an excercise in programming :)
09:29	* cliebow sbalneav no has enough exercise already?
09:29	<alkisg> I wish I had time to try it, I'd like the experience!
09:29	<Nubae> 20mg is indeed a lot
09:30	<sbalneav> Looks like the greeter itself is the biggest item by far.
09:30	<Nubae> suppose that is good news then
09:31	<sbalneav> Sure. The greeter's kind of "the least important" part of LDM.
09:31	i.e. it's just bling and an entry box
09:31	If we come up with a lower spec greeter, that might solve a lot of problems
09:32	<johnny> sbalneav, that's what i said about you the other day :)
09:32	hehe
09:32	<sbalneav> What, that I'm just bling and an entry box, or the least important part of this project? :)
09:32	<johnny> the bling part
09:32	<sbalneav> heh
09:33	<Nubae> hobo bling
09:33	<sbalneav> Man, if you think I'm blingy, boy are YOUR standards low. :)
09:33	<Nubae> heh, thats in the slang dictionary
09:33	<johnny> <ignore>or sarah palin</ignore>
09:33	<sbalneav> After 17 years of Marriage, I don't even wear a watch or a wedding ring. :)
09:34	<Nubae> hobo bling = cheap fake jewellery
09:34	funny word
09:34	<alkisg> sbalneav, I did the same thing 17 hours after my marriage... :P
09:34	<cliebow> flare
09:34	<alkisg> [newbie]What does console-kit-daemon do?[/newbie]
09:34	<cliebow> ;-]
09:34	<johnny> alkisg, it was originally designed to manage multiseat installs
09:34	but it never achieved that goal..
09:35	<cliebow> sbalneav: i got a red stapler now!
09:35	<johnny> and then policykit came in the mix and screwed it up even more..
09:35	<alkisg> Is it needed on single user systems? (like ltsp clients)
09:35	<johnny> alkisg, yes..
09:35	<alkisg> :(
09:35	<sbalneav> cdpinger's also a little bigger than it needs to be, as we're using glib. We could slim that down by a meg, too.
09:35	<johnny> if you're using gnome ..
09:35	<cliebow> course my first name IS Milton
09:36	<sbalneav> Really, with the exception of the greeter, all our stuff's pretty small.
09:36	<johnny> alkisg, there'd probably be a way to force feed anything that asks consolekit for info by just returning static information, but it's prolly not worth the hassle
09:37	<alkisg> johnny, I just saw 8M and though to dump it... ignore me! ;)
09:37	<sbalneav> So, going on the principle of "biggest gains first", I'd say a low fat greeter's the place to start.
09:37	I'll pull out my "X Intrinsics toolkit" book tonight. :)
09:37	* johnny wants to hang out with sbalneav .. that cat sure seems like a load of fun
09:37	<alkisg> sbalneav, if it's already doable with xdmcp, is it worth it?
09:38	<sbalneav> We might want to use something like Xaw, a low end toolkit, to help us (athena widgets)
09:38	alkisg: Well, with xdmcp, you loose sound and localdevs
09:38	<alkisg> ah, right
09:39	<sbalneav> I mean, you get the ram BACK after the greeter executes, but it doesn't help you if the box runs out of ram bringing up the greeter.
09:40	<cliebow> my clients are so low they have negative ram
09:40	<johnny> sbalneav, what about a cli version of the greeter? and skip the graphical altogether?
09:40	just the username and password prompt
09:40	<sbalneav> this is just code grinding. It's what I'm good at. I suck at packaging, and policy, and filling out APARS and SRU's and all that bookwork stuff. But coding stuff in C? That I can do.
09:40	<johnny> do people really need anything else ultimately?
09:40	<sbalneav> Well, you're going to want X anyway, and it's started anyway.
09:41	* jammcq thinks there's some merit in the idea of a non-gui login screen
09:41	<sbalneav> 60% of LTSP these days is all packaging.
09:41	<johnny> sure. but it would mean less work than trying to lower the greeter
09:41	scripting task more than a coding task i guess
09:42	<jammcq> these days, the line between scripting and coding is pretty blurry
09:42	<Nubae> well we might as well go for a non gui thin client too :-)
09:42	<jammcq> Nubae: we had that in ltsp-4x
09:42	<johnny> Nubae, that's just ssh :)
09:43	<Nubae> well, I was thinking a little nicer, like menu style
09:43	press 1 for web, press 2 for email, 3 for chat
09:43	etc
09:43	then we can boast ltsp 5 runs on 386s...
09:44	heh
09:44	<jammcq> sound alot like "Press 1 for sales, 2 for servers ..."
09:44	<johnny> i wonder if anybody has come up with a curses interface to creating odf docs..
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09:44	<Nubae> lol
09:44	<jammcq> err, 'service' :)
09:44	<Nubae> I'd be hitting 2 all the time... give me more servers
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09:47	<alkisg> Nubae, I tried to run another SDL app in a thin client (super mario), it didn't use 100% CPU like tuxpaint, but it was really slow (like, 0.1 fps)
09:48	So I guest it's an SDL issue... I tried strace with tuxpaint, and I got a loop of nanowait / resource not available
09:48	<Nubae> alkisg: I'm not surprised... but was it actively using SDL? what graphics chipset?
09:48	<alkisg> Virtualbox client...
09:48	<Nubae> oh
09:49	<alkisg> In other apps it's ok
09:49	<Nubae> so 3d acceleration works?
09:49	<alkisg> I'm not sure, let me check
09:50	<sbalneav> Heading over to the criminal law office. AFK for a bit.
09:52	<alkisg> glxinfo returns that some extensions are available... what am I looking for?
09:53	<ogra> sbalneav, to cut down the greeter by half in ram usage, you just need to drop themeing and font aliasing
09:53	i.e. dont provde a gtkrc, make sure your fontconfig defaults to stairstepped fonts
09:54	<Nubae> alkisg: run glxgears
09:54	see if it runs ok
09:54	<alkisg> Nubae, it runs very slow, but reports 1000+ fps!!!
09:54	<Nubae> heh, so fast u cant even see it I suppose
09:55	well... then accelration works, so SDL should... definitely a problem with SDL then
09:55	which is bad... because I doubt there is much will to change that beast
09:56	<alkisg> Maybe it's a polling think, which can be tweaked for a good CPU/performance ratio
09:56	(I'm thinking about all these nanowaits)
09:56	<Nubae> maybe we need to read up on SDL and how it does what it does
09:57	<alkisg> ...too many things to do, too little time :(
09:57	<Nubae> indeed
10:11	<ogra> alkisg, make sure to not have something like nvidia or fglrx installed on the server, that will break things heavily
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10:12	<ogra> both replace the X GL libs
10:12	<alkisg> ogra, really? :(
10:12	so servers with nvidia cards should be operated with nv driver?
10:12	<ogra> yes ... and both use hardcoded stuff in their implementations that points to their drivers
10:13	yes, as long as you want GL on the clients
10:13	closed drivers are evil :)
10:13	<alkisg> duh... thanks!
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10:14	<tostado> nubae: i followed your howto, booted the client but still the apps are run on the server
10:15	is there anything i need to do afterwards ?
10:16	<Nubae> tostado: did u change dhcpd.conf to use the new chroot?
10:17	<tostado> yip
10:17	rebooted the server too
10:17	<Nubae> and restarted dhcp?
10:17	hmm... paste me your dhcpd.conf file
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10:17	<Nubae> check to see u have the right chroots in /opt/ltsp too
10:18	if u followed the howto and made it fati386, u should have /opt/ltsp/fati386
10:19	<ltsppbot> "tost." pasted "fat client" (30 lines) at http://pastebot.ltsp.org/72
10:19	<tostado> nubae: http://pastebot.ltsp.org/72
10:20	<Nubae> well, for one, u have /opt/ltsp/amd64fat, and then /ltsp/amd64/pxelinux.cfg
10:20	not fat missing from second one
10:21	also.. instead of uncommenting all of that, replicate it exactly and replace i386 in all instances with the name of chroot
10:21	<tostado> ah
10:22	<Nubae> also set get-lease-hostnames to true and add an entry for pncl1 in /etc/hosts
10:27	<tostado> ok
10:29	ok, now it looks different
10:29	filename is /ltsp/amd64fat/nbi.img
10:29	is this right ?
10:30	<Nubae> paste me your dhcpd.conf
10:30	<tostado> while booting it hangs at "starting bluetooth"
10:31	<ltsppbot> "tost." pasted "fat client" (29 lines) at http://pastebot.ltsp.org/73
10:31	<Nubae> ah, the bluetooth thing... I'll take that out... only happens with hardy
10:32	for now though, so u dont have to reinstall your entire client... go into the chroot and remove bluetooth
10:32	<tostado> how can i fix it ß
10:32	<Nubae> so do chroot /opt/ltsp/amd64fat
10:32	and then apt-get remove bluetooth
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10:34	<Nubae> then exit and rebuild the chroot like ltsp-update-image --b /opt/ltsp --a amd64fat
10:38	<tostado> hmm.... there is no bluetooth package
10:38	just libbluetooth2 i.e.
10:39	when i remove it i would remove 20 packages depending on it, i.e. totem
10:39	but in /etc/default/bluetooth i can disable it
10:39	would that do it too ?
10:40	gonzaloaf_laptop has joined #ltsp
10:42	<Nubae> disable it
10:42	see if that works
10:42	remember to rebuild after
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10:48	<tostado> ok, not bluetooth is being started
10:48	but now it hangs at "Starting GNOME display manager"
10:48	pdjbarber has quit IRC
10:49	<Nubae> k... try adding a .sh script to start gdm later on...
10:50	something like a #!/bin/bash
10:50	followed by:
10:51	/usr/sbin/gdm start
10:52	and add a variable to lts.conf that looks like this: RC_FILE01=/path/to/file/
10:54	johnny: http://www.nubae.com/ltsp-linux-terminal-server-project-netbooted-fat-client-for-ubuntu-hardy-and-intrepid
10:54	happy now?
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10:55	<tostado> ok, should i rebuild the image again ?
10:56	Guest94250 has joined #ltsp
10:56	<Nubae> yeah
10:57	should work now
10:57	<tostado> ?
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10:57	<Nubae> after uve rebuild the image
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10:59	<tostado> > Creating little endian 3.1 filesystem on......
10:59	does it always take so long ?
10:59	like 2 minutes ?
10:59	<johnny> yes
10:59	it has to compress everything
10:59	<tostado> :(
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11:00	<johnny> well you wont' be updated it often, so it's not that big of a deal
11:00	<tostado> ok
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11:01	<Nubae> right, I'll build your beta testing into script, so other people wont have to go through that ;-)
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11:07	<gonzaloaf_laptop> hello, whats the meaning of ndb_swap? specifically 'ndb' ?
11:07	<johnny> nbd
11:07	network block device
11:08	it's the same thing that is used by ltsp itself on ubuntu instead of nfs
11:09	<gonzaloaf_laptop> johnny, so it means that is going to use a swap area but somewhere in the network
11:09	<tostado> ok, gdm shows uo
11:09	<johnny> yes
11:10	tostado, it's not gdm
11:10	<Nubae> tostado: cool..
11:10	yes it is
11:10	fat client
11:10	<johnny> oh..
11:10	silly fat clients
11:10	<tostado> i have to go now...
11:10	* johnny needs more ram for fat clients
11:10	<Nubae> yeah they should be slimmer
11:10	tostado: ok, let me know how the experience goes
11:10	everything should work
11:10	<johnny> i'll be happy with firefox and flash locally
11:10	that's all most folks use anyways
11:11	<tostado> cant log in (no /home dir)
11:11	<Nubae> sound, printing, usb sticks, flash, firefox, all works
11:11	tostado: did u set up nfs on the server?
11:11	<tostado> no
11:11	i will do this later
11:11	i will let you know
11:11	<Nubae> ah... it needs to have nfs installed on server and /etc/exports with a line or 2
11:11	yeah let me know
11:12	<tostado> i'm in a hurry now
11:12	<Nubae> ok
11:12	<tostado> but big thanks for helping
11:12	looks like the way....
11:12	<Nubae> its very close, just needs nfs on the server
11:12	no more rebuilding client
11:12	<tostado> i'll be back in 2 days or so
11:12	cu
11:12	<Nubae> ok
11:12	tostado has left #ltsp
11:13	* Nubae always assumes people will do things like edit their dhcpd.conf and add necessary services on their own
11:13	* Nubae assumes too much
11:13	* Hyperbyte whistles innocently
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11:22	<Hyperbyte> Is it possible to use the thin client's sound device from both the terminal environment and a local app at the same time?
11:22	Currently I'm having some trouble with "device in use" messages...
11:23	<Nubae> what apps?
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11:26	<johnny> Hyperbyte, depends on the app..
11:26	if they can talk to pulse it should work, but maybe you have to tell them to
11:26	<Hyperbyte> twinkle softphone... seems to only support alsa
11:26	So I guess that means I'm out of luck?
11:26	<johnny> padsp twinkle
11:27	if it works with oss
11:27	i think there's a similiar one for alsa..
11:27	you can add something that makes alsa use pulse in asoundrc
11:27	Hyperbyte, no.. not if you don't mind trying a few different things :)
11:29	Hyperbyte, in linux.. you're very rarely out of luck..
11:29	which is why we use it :)
11:31	<Hyperbyte> Well, you don't have to convince me of that, I've been using Linux for a long time as server software...
11:31	But I have zero experience with things like X, alsa, etc... I'm in over my head a little. :P A little bit more than a little maybe.
11:32	I'm not having too much luck... twinkle is also giving me DCOPserver errors
11:35	<johnny> aha.. it's qt/kde then?
11:36	<Hyperbyte> No, Gnome...
11:37	<johnny> dcop iirc is a kde technology..
11:37	<Hyperbyte> I read that...
11:37	That only added to the confusion. :)
11:37	<johnny> i don't know how to fix anything kde
11:38	<Hyperbyte> Anyway, I printed your suggested to padsp... doesn't seem to work right away, but I'll have a good look at it tomorrow.
11:38	<johnny> well there's probably a wrapper for alsa
11:38	<ogra> use ekiga ?
11:38	<Hyperbyte> Have to run now... late for a meeting.
11:38	<johnny> yeah.. you could just use ekiga
11:38	* johnny kicks ogra into bed
11:39	<Hyperbyte> ekiga supports hold, transfers and everything?
11:39	Including attented transfer?
11:39	<ogra> you wouldnt belive how much i'd love to
11:39	* ogra yawns
11:39	<ogra> no idea, but it works :)
11:39	<johnny> ogra, we don't want you here.. we want you in bed :)
11:39	* ogra uses it several times a week
11:40	<ogra> johnny, lovely
11:40	<Hyperbyte> johnny: that sounds dirty
11:40	<johnny> lol
11:40	* Hyperbyte runs
11:41	<Hyperbyte> Thanks for all the suggestions so far... it's been lovely.
11:42	<Nubae> is ogra ill?
11:42	<ogra> Nubae, pre prelease desease
11:43	<johnny> i need a new laptop :(
11:43	2 usb ports == NOT ENOUGH
11:43	<ogra> get a dell mini ... :)
11:43	<johnny> how many there? 4?
11:43	lol.. 4 is probably not enough..
11:43	i think i need 6 :)
11:43	* ogra hands johnny a pocket hub
11:43	<Nubae> jeez so by a usb hub
11:44	<johnny> sure.. but then i have to carry that
11:44	and then .. many devices need a powered hub..
11:44	<ogra> superglue !
11:44	<johnny> which you get.. if they are onboard
11:44	<ogra> glue it to your hand ...
11:45	<johnny> but if they aren't. you need to use two plugs ;)
11:45	<ogra> ... you will see you dont have to carry it
11:45	<johnny> i wonder if anybody sells a laptop adaptor that also powers a usb hub.. :)
11:45	that'd be neat..
11:45	especially when on the train for a long period of time..
11:46	<Nubae> im sure they do
11:46	there is usb crap in all forms imaginable
11:46	<johnny> yep
11:46	some good .. some bad
11:46	some weird..
11:46	<ogra> you dont have power plugs on american trains ?
11:46	<Nubae> some funny some sad
11:46	<johnny> ogra.. many traisn have 1 outlet per seat
11:46	* ogra shakes his head ... mumbles something about third world ...
11:47	<johnny> many don't.. :)
11:47	<ogra> ah
11:47	<johnny> many have none :)
11:47	<Nubae> they dont have health insurance over there either :p
11:47	K_O-Gnom has joined #ltsp
11:47	<Nubae> and a stupid president
11:47	<johnny> hopefully that will be remedied soon
11:47	<ogra> but sexy, intelligent republican candidates
11:47	<johnny> amtrak just got a big funding bill
11:47	passed
11:47	<ogra> top of the edge
11:47	g
11:48	<johnny> all the trains that go back into maintenance get outlets put in
11:48	they are gonna reopen two routes i think
11:48	<Nubae> they just redid the u-bahns (underground) here so that its like one big long continuous train... so u can walk from one end to the other
11:48	<johnny> ogra, most of the trains in the big corridors like in cali, the midwest, and on the east coast between virginia and boston do have outlets
11:49	for all passengers
11:49	<ogra> nice
11:49	<johnny> it's the long distance ones that have spotty coverage
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11:49	<ogra> german trains have outlets and wlan :)
11:49	<johnny> ours are about to
11:49	the maryland trains between baltimore and dc seem to have some wlan
11:49	business travelers obviously are making this happen
11:50	ogra, germany is small
11:50	it's hard to get any sort of coverage in the big empty areas
11:50	<Nubae> its not that small
11:50	<johnny> it's not that small :)
11:50	as you say
11:51	population density has a lot to do with it
11:51	<Nubae> well not really... the tracks should have connectivity
11:51	<johnny> the tracks are owned by freight train companies
11:51	<Nubae> the train gets its net from there usually
11:51	<johnny> except in the northeast
11:51	they don't need wlan
11:52	<Nubae> wlan inside the train
11:52	<johnny> amtrak just happens to share the lines
11:52	they haven't had near enough money to focus on anything like that
11:53	there's been a few different times
11:53	when we almost lost passenger service except in the corridors
11:53	flying was too easy for most
11:53	you could go across the country for $150-$300
11:54	<Nubae> yeah nothing like a good recession to fix that
11:54	<johnny> the equivalent train trip..
11:54	almost double
11:54	and would take 10x longer
11:54	<rw_ltsp> anyone up for giving a little help with a ltsp nfs problem?
11:55	<Nubae> yeah here too... a flight from Brussels to Spain, 90 €
11:55	who takes the train then
11:55	rw_ltsp: ask the question
11:56	<johnny> Nubae, do you know how many hours it takes to cross the united states by train?
11:56	<rw_ltsp> all the documentation I've found about my problem says to change the rsize and wsize of the nfs mount but when I change it in pxelinux.0/default it doesn't change it in the command
11:56	<Nubae> johnny: no :-)
11:56	I took the train from Boston to New York once though
11:57	<johnny> Nubae, 62 hours
11:57	<Nubae> ouch, although that could be kinda cool
11:57	<johnny> that's from here to Portland, OR
11:57	<Nubae> an experience to remember
11:57	<rw_ltsp> sorry, kinda started in the middle, basically, some of my clients are on older switches that don't support 32k udp blocks, so I need to reduce the size...want to go 1024
11:58	<johnny> Nubae, i did it.. :) it was awesome
11:59	<rw_ltsp> if I go to one of my working ltsp clients console and do a "mount \|less" I see my nfs mount is 32k not the 1024 i specified in pxelinux.0/default
12:01	what I gues I'm asking is where can I change those mount options to have them actually do something?
12:02	<johnny> nfs and not nbd ?
12:03	<rw_ltsp> yes, as I understand it
12:03	<johnny> depends..
12:03	ubuntu defaults to nbd
12:03	doesnt use nfs at all
12:03	<rw_ltsp> i see, I"m on fc9
12:03	<johnny> oh
12:04	then you probably have to edit the chroot
12:04	wherever warren sets the mount options
12:04	perhaps in the client's etc/fstab ?
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12:04	<rw_ltsp> I thought that too, but I don't see it in the chroot fstab
12:05	<Nubae> or in the /etc/exports of the server
12:05	<johnny> yeah.. set it there
12:05	if possible
12:06	<rw_ltsp> I just tried: /opt/ltsp *(ro,async,no_root_squash,wsize=1024,rsize=1024) -- nfs complains on restart
12:06	exportfs: /etc/exports:1: unknown keyword "wsize=1024"
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12:07	<Nubae> u googled that I guess?
12:08	<rw_ltsp> I'm kinda doing all this again as I go to make sure I didn't miss anything, but yes I've been googling at this all morning
12:10	<Nubae> dude u have it set as ro
12:10	of course it cant do wsize then
12:11	set to rw and try again
12:11	<rw_ltsp> same error
12:12	if I take out the wsize=1024, it errors on rsize=1024
12:12	<gonzaloaf_laptop> hello, where do I find the valid options for xkblayout?
12:13	<Nubae> hmmm
12:13	<ogra> gonzaloaf_laptop, xorg documentation
12:13	<Nubae> maybe u can only set that in fstab
12:13	and not in exports
12:15	<gonzaloaf_laptop> ogra, xorg.conf doesnt use the same name of the options than ltsp, or they do?
12:15	<rw_ltsp> I can't find the file on server with the nfs mount int it
12:15	<ogra> gonzaloaf_laptop, it does
12:15	but all capitalized
12:15	(in lts.conf)
12:15	<rw_ltsp> it' snot in /etc/fstab or /opt/ltsp/i386/etc/fstab
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12:20	<johnny> the mount is probably in the initrd rw_ltsp
12:20	but i don't know anything about mkinitrd to tell lyou where to look
12:21	rw_ltsp, there are some fedora folks here who could help
12:21	<rw_ltsp> hmm, i see.
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12:54	<Lns> Isn't there a resident iTalc/LTSP expert here?
12:56	<Nubae> yeah stgraber
12:56	why whats u're issue?
12:57	<Lns> cool thx...no, no issues, I wanted to get some iTalc docs up on the wiki
12:57	wanted to see if there were any existing or not already
12:58	<stgraber> Lns: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/iTalc
13:00	<Lns> stgraber: thanks - I saw this last night, but there's no ltsp info for it
13:00	<stgraber> hmm, right.
13:00	<Lns> any instructions on getting it going in a chroot?
13:00	<stgraber> For LTSP, you basically need italc-master and italc-client on the server
13:00	italc-client in the chroot
13:01	matching /etc/italc/keys on both
13:01	and START_ITALC=True in lts.conf
13:01	<Lns> ooo
13:01	nice
13:01	=)
13:01	ok.. i'll probably be installing it on my own network today, and i'll document the steps.
13:01	<stgraber> that'll make iTalc run locally and tell the server not to start it and use the one on the thin client instead (using some xprop magic)
13:02	<Lns> stgraber: so it's thinking it is still local even though it's on a thin client (which has a connection to the local x session on server) ?
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13:02	<Lns> my terminology is off i think
13:03	<stgraber> not exactly, in fact the ica-launcher script on the server checks if a xprop is set, if it's, it won't start ica on the server
13:03	K_O-Gnom has quit IRC
13:03	<stgraber> then the italc-launcher script (teacher interface) will scan for the same property, if it's set it'll remotely connect to ica instead of using localhost
13:03	(-isdhost and -isdport parameters I implemented)
13:04	<Lns> oh, ok
13:04	you're referring to ICA as in citrix protocol?
13:06	anyway, cool. I'll try and get it going. thx for the info
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13:12	<Lns> stgraber: I'm assuming you're recommending for Hardy users to use your PPA at https://launchpad.net/~edubuntu-italc-devel/+archive to use iTalc at all?
13:14	<Nubae> anyone here work with moodle?
13:14	<Lns> Nubae: not yet :(
13:15	<alkisg> Nubae, only as a user, didn't manage to install it (the school server has safemode = on)
13:17	<Nubae> I'm battling trying to embed php into the wiki
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13:17	<Nubae> I guess I'm gonna have to resort to building a damn plugin for it, which I really didnt want to do
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13:20	<six2one_> i am totally going to look into iTALC
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13:26	* Nubae smashes hammer against moodle repeatedly
13:27	<stgraber> Lns: yes, I'll also need to upload new version of the package there
13:27	<Lns> stgraber: should i wait for you to do that before attempting install?
13:28	<stgraber> so you are working on doc using hardy ? with Intrepid everything is included (we should probably ask for a backport)
13:29	<alkisg> Nubae, isn't the new nwiki engine that moodle uses about the same as mediawiki? Because then you could tweak this: http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:SecurePHP
13:29	<Lns> stgraber: yeah, I want to stick with Hardy.. I'm done chasing releases ;)
13:31	<Nubae> alkisg: thanks I started making my own plugin, but I didnt want to have to do that for every custom item...
13:31	Ill check that out, might help me
13:32	<alkisg> ok... I hate moodle myself, it's bad for my eyes... :P
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13:38	<Blinny> I second the desire for iTalc packages+docs w/ Hardy
13:41	<alkisg> Does "chroot /opt/ltsp/i386 && apt-get update" have about the same results as a clean "rm -rf /opt/ltsp && ltsp-build-client"?
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13:43	<Blinny> alkisg: On Ubuntu, the /opt tree's default sources.list doesn't include -updates
13:44	alkisg: As an aside, you'll also want to mount proc after your chroot command (mount -t proc proc /proc) before safe/dist-upgrading, then umount (umount /proc) before exiting the chroot.
13:44	<alkisg> Blinny, what if I copy /etc/sources to the chroot? Is is OK or I'd better do ltsp-build-client once in a while?
13:44	(while in the same version, no dist-upgrade)
13:44	<Blinny> alkisg: If you copy the server's /etc/apt/sources.list to the chroot you'd get new updates.
13:44	dist-upgrade grabs new kernels
13:45	<alkisg> I see... thanks!
13:45	<Blinny> Others know better, but I don't believe ltsp-build-client takes the latest-greatest-packages as they're released into -updates
13:45	<Lns> alkisg: see https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/UpdatingChroot
13:45	<Blinny> See? Brilliant.
13:45	Thanks Lns
13:45	<Lns> Brilliant!
13:45	=p
13:45	np
13:46	* Lns loves documentation
13:46	<alkisg> Lns, you're great!!! :)
13:46	So apt-get update is actually better than ltsp-build-client!
13:46	(provided that sources.list is copied)
13:47	<Lns> alkisg: not necessarily
13:47	<Blinny> "better" is a relative term
13:47	<alkisg> Well, I mean if I want new staff
13:47	<Blinny> Sometimes new packages break old functionality due to changes.
13:47	<Lns> if you're upgrading to a new Ubuntu release, I'd recommend moving the existing chroot and creating a new one via 'ltsp-build-client'
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13:48	<Lns> that script does things that an apt-get update doesn't, especially for new release upgrades
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13:48	<alkisg> Lns, e.g. now with intrepid, I tried ltsp-build-client 4-5 times, but it takes much time, even with package caching
13:48	So I thought I'd use apt-get update, but I was afraid it would not be as "clean"
13:49	<Lns> alkisg: yeah. I've seen that too.. if you've upgraded the server from hardy to intrepid, i'd do an ltsp-build-client no matter what
13:49	<alkisg> When I do distro upgrade, I always build a clean chroot...
13:49	<Lns> then obviously the normal ltsp-update-kernels && ltsp-update-image
13:49	good
13:49	that's what ogra recommends too
13:49	<alkisg> Yep! Thanks!
13:49	<Lns> np
13:51	<Nubae> http://www.nln.ac.uk/?p=Noodle
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14:16	<Lns> stgraber: can i get access to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/iTalc to add content re: LTSP installs?
14:16	<jammcq> davidj: so umm.... I hear you aren't coming to BTS
14:18	<davidj> Well, I didn't think I was until about 10 minutes ago...
14:18	<sbalneav> Well, just did some checking/reading. Looks like it'll be fairly easy to use Xaw to write up a much less blingy greeter. I'll poke around with that over the next couple of days.
14:18	<jammcq> oh?
14:19	<davidj> Well, my wife pointed out that we have a use-it-or-lose-it plane ticket we have to use before 11/12.
14:20	So if I can get the airline to honor it, I'm in.
14:21	<cliebow> davidj:!!!
14:22	<davidj> cliebow!!
14:22	<cliebow> be great to see ya!
14:25	<davidj> Well, it's not a done deal yet.
14:25	<cliebow> yeah..
14:25	<jammcq> when it becomes a done deal, please sign up on the wiki
14:25	<cliebow> !wiki
14:25	<ltspbot> cliebow: "wiki" is the LTSP wiki. You can find it at http://wiki.ltsp.org
14:26	<davidj> jammcq: I will.
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14:42	<sbalneav> sbalneav 6117 0.0 0.2 4036 2096 pts/7 S+ 14:40 0:00 ./a.out
14:42	Well, just programmed up a simple little prompter in Xaw
14:42	how's 4 megs? :)
14:42	<davidj> 4M???
14:43	<sbalneav> of ram, yeah
14:43	<davidj> A smart guy like you ought to be able to do it in 4K
14:43	;-)
14:43	<sbalneav> I can't control the size of the X libraries.
14:43	<davidj> heh
14:43	<sbalneav> better than the 19 megs the GTK one takes now :)
14:43	<davidj> guess not.
14:43	yep
14:44	<sbalneav> long way off of anything working.
14:44	Lns has joined #ltsp
14:45	<Lns> stgraber: when you have a minute i'm having issues finding my italc client.. installed italc-client in chroot, copied keys from server to chroot, rebuilt image, used "START_ITALC = True" in lts.conf, rebooted tc, it doesn't autodetect my client, and doesn't connect when adding manually
14:46	<ogra_> sbalneav, i can get the current greeter running with 6
14:47	<davidj> sbalneav: Why do you want a new greeter? Wouldn't it be better to tighten up the current one?
14:47	<ogra_> davidj, thats what i'm doing since a week
14:47	well, rather rewriting it from scratch though and cleaning up
14:49	sbalneav, as i said above, the ram hog is the theme engine and fontconfig ... drop both and you will use a third
14:49	oh, and indeed that wallaper rendering
14:50	* vagrantc grumbles about ldm on hppa ...
14:50	<ogra_> heh
14:50	<vagrantc> seems like it's been built twice now
14:50	http://buildd.debian.org/build.php?pkg=ldm&arch=hppa&ver=2:2.0.6-4
14:50	<ogra_> vagrantc, glib is broken on hppa
14:50	since ages
14:50	<vagrantc> i wonder how many times it has to sucessfully build before an upload happens ...
14:50	bobby_C has joined #ltsp
14:50	<ogra_> i bet debian has the same prob
14:50	<vagrantc> ogra_: oh really ...
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14:51	<vagrantc> ogra_: but the build looks sucessful ...
14:51	<sbalneav> ogra_: Ah, ok
14:51	<ogra_> ah, you might have an older glib
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14:52	<vagrantc> glib2.0 2.16.6-1
14:52	<sbalneav> So, what would we do, specify "LDM_LOWRESOURCE" or something, then not start the theme engine within the code?
14:52	<jammcq> LDM_BASIC_THEME ?
14:52	<sbalneav> yeah, whatever
14:52	<ogra_> first of all, have a patch that makes use of a plain bg color
14:53	i will include that in the rewrite
14:53	<sbalneav> something to tell it to not start the theme engine
14:53	<ogra_> i would bet $20 that saves 4M
14:53	<sbalneav> Oh, for sure
14:53	<vagrantc> xsetroot
14:53	<ogra_> vagrantc, no, the greeter would still load bg.png and render it
14:53	it needs fixage in the code
14:53	<vagrantc> ogra_: well sure ...
14:54	<ogra_> which is the purpose of my rewirte
14:54	<vagrantc> but it's trivial to do with xsetroot, is all.
14:54	<sbalneav> ogra_: Have you started a rewrite of gtkgreet?
14:54	<ogra_> sbalneav, i'm rambling about that since a week, yeah
14:54	<sbalneav> I'd be interested in helping out
14:54	<ogra_> sbalneav, if i have something, i'm still playing yet, after ubuntu release if i have a bit more time
14:54	<davidj> Instead of just specifying LDM_BASIC_THEME, check for available ram and turn off the extra code automatically.
14:55	<ogra_> main purpose was to have all elements freely placeable without influencing each other
14:55	<jammcq> auto-detection is fine, but having the ability to force it one way or the other is important too
14:55	<vagrantc> could we package the greeter separate from ldm?
14:56	* vagrantc agrees with jammcq
14:56	<ogra_> i'm far enough to have a freely placeable input box and clock, both in switchable functions ... so people can just add a new function to have a new/different inpout box or an analogue clock
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14:56	<sbalneav> This pushed somewhere?
14:56	<ogra_> vagrantc, why ? if the code is good enough to switch off all elements and run in 2M
14:56	sbalneav, no, i'm in release preparation
14:57	<sbalneav> k
14:57	<ogra_> ask me after 30th
14:57	<vagrantc> ogra_: well, if it's a full replacement for the current greeter, sure. but making it possible to package an independent greeter would open the door for a qt one or some other greeter.
14:57	<ogra_> i'm curretly poking around with possibilities while waiting for installs to finish but its constantly broken due to that
14:57	vagrantc, feel free
14:58	the backend allows that today
14:58	<vagrantc> may as well make sure it's possible/easy to package separately while having to re-implement it anyways
14:58	ok.
14:58	<ogra_> thats how it was designed
14:58	and thats the reason its called gtkgreet :)
14:58	<sbalneav> What fires up the theme engine? The call to gtk_rc_add_default_file()?
14:58	<ogra_> its set in the rc file
14:58	grep for engin there
14:58	*engine
14:59	<sbalneav> Ah, ok, so all you'd have to do is just have a low-rent theme file?
14:59	<ogra_> you could even go with an empty rc file
14:59	<sbalneav> with no engine?
14:59	<ogra_> it would fall back to gtk default
14:59	<jammcq> empty rc file? how do you set that PER client?
14:59	<ogra_> and look like everything Gadi does :P
14:59	jammcq, it sits in the theme dir in the chroot
15:00	<jammcq> yeah, and how do you set that PER client?
15:00	<ogra_> cwith the current code you cant do anything per client
15:00	<jammcq> in the chroot? or from the lts.conf file?
15:00	<ogra_> you can set LDM_THEME
15:00	<vagrantc> jammcq: specify a theme with an empty rc file ...
15:00	<ogra_> an have a low spec theme in the chroot
15:00	<jammcq> ah, you set the theme, and each theme has a separate rc file?
15:01	<vagrantc> gtkrc
15:01	<ogra_> with an indexed one color bg.png
15:01	and empty gtkrc
15:01	that would already save a lot
15:01	<sbalneav> Cool
15:01	<ogra_> you save even more if you set the gtk items to not use icons
15:01	<sbalneav> I can play with that some.
15:01	<ogra_> but that needs code changes
15:02	gtk_iconcache eats a lot
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15:02	<ogra_> it loads and caches all icons on load
15:02	fontconfig is a bit harder
15:02	you need to change the fontconfig configuration to not use aliasing and not load fonts
15:03	with all these changes you could get to 2-4M for the greeter
15:03	but it would look horrible
15:05	sbalneav, i'm plannying to merge all functions from the old greeter into the new one ... so if you do changes there it will help the new one too
15:05	since i'm only changing the code structure mainly
15:08	<sbalneav> ok, I'll poke around. If we can prod the existing one into something slimmer if needed, then that's a huge win.
15:08	<ogra_> right5 and it will help the new one as well
15:08	<sbalneav> jammcq: Hey, you see Slashdot? Cobol's on the rise!
15:09	<jammcq> oh?
15:09	cobol celebrates it's 50th birthday next may 29th
15:09	i'm committed to completely eliminating it from my life by may 28th
15:09	<ogra_> oh really ? its younger than the smufs ?
15:09	*smurfs
15:10	<davidj> someone should submit 1,000,000 lines of cobol code to Jim's svn server
15:10	alkisg1 has joined #ltsp
15:10	<sbalneav> Phht, Cobol, that young whippersnapper language. Fortran's already 52 :)
15:10	<jammcq> davidj: what would I do with ANOTHER million lines of cobol ?
15:11	<davidj> Admire it for its structure.
15:11	<sbalneav> C AREA OF THE TRIANGLE
15:11	799 S = FLOATF (IA + IB + IC) / 2.0
15:11	AREA = SQRT( S * (S - FLOATF(IA)) * (S - FLOATF(IB)) *
15:11	+ (S - FLOATF(IC)))
15:11	WRITE OUTPUT TAPE 6, 601, IA, IB, IC, AREA
15:11	* ogra_ points to http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/smurfs-celebrate-their-50th-birthday-969506.html
15:12	<davidj> Hey, I remember my MOM laughing at cobol programmers.
15:12	But then, she did all her work in assember.
15:13	<sbalneav> Wow, I thought the smurfs were like an 80's thing only. Didn't know they'd been around that long.
15:13	<jammcq> ADD IA, IB, IC giving WS-INTERMEDIATE.
15:13	<davidj> sbalneav: Anything that bad has to have been fermenting for a long time.
15:13	<jammcq> DIVIDE INTERMEDIATE BY 2 GIVING S
15:14	<sbalneav> OUTPUT SECTION
15:14	<vagrantc> ROLL EYES
15:14	* ogra_ finds programming languages that live from permanent shouting suspicious
15:14	<sbalneav> I remember my Cobol exam from university
15:14	Now PL/1, THERE's a neat language.
15:14	<davidj> heh
15:14	I think I've still got a PL/1 book around here somewhere.
15:16	<sbalneav> I got my Unix Programmers Manual here from Bell Labs (c) 1979
15:17	Man, wish I'dve had THAT with me when I met KEN THOMPSON
15:17	<jammcq> heh
15:17	<sbalneav> Could'a had him autograph that
15:17	<Lns> ogra_: by chance can you help me troubleshoot my newly installed italc in hardy? I can't see/connect to any clients, even using 10000+last octet of client IP
15:17	I saw you chatter about italc being default in edubuntu..thought you might have a pointer or 2
15:17	<ogra_> users are logged in ?
15:17	<Lns> ogra_: yes
15:18	<ogra_> i have not much clue about it
15:18	<Lns> as guest
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15:18	<Lns> ogra_: ok.. /me anxiously awaits stgraber's response
15:18	<ogra_> check if ica runs for them
15:19	Lns, we're all massively busy, RC release is within the next 2h
15:19	+/-2h
15:19	<Lns> ogra_: oh ok, nm then :)
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15:21	<alkisg1> Lns, what does ps aux\|grep ica give on the clients?
15:21	<Lns> alkisg: i have 3 procs running - 1 ica-launcher, 2 ica
15:22	<alkisg1> Why 3? You've installed ica-master on the chroot?
15:22	<Lns> alkisg: oh wait, jeez
15:22	alkisg: no
15:22	its not running on the client i'm trying to connect to, but my own tc has it..lemme try and connect to myself
15:23	<ogra_> on the client ?
15:23	it should run in the session of the logged in user
15:23	<alkisg1> ogra_, stgrabber suggests it's better on the chroot
15:24	<ogra_> then if you have avahi installed it will autoconnect (in intrepid at least) no action required
15:24	<alkisg1> Lns is using hardy...
15:24	<ogra_> alkisg, only if you want to be able to shut down clients etc
15:24	i dont think the in client way was supported in hardy
15:24	unless you use PPA backports
15:24	<alkisg1> Well, my clients only have 64Mb Ram, so I don't do that anyway!!! :)
15:24	<Lns> ogra_: i am using stgraber's ppa
15:25	i can't connect to myself either
15:25	<ogra_> with 1.0.9 ?
15:25	<Lns> italc - 1:1.0.9.1-0ubuntu1~ppa1
15:25	* ogra_ only ever tried the way with ica running in the sessions ... its a waste of bandwith imho to install them on the client instead of just connecting through loopback
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15:26	<ogra_> only intresting if you need the special features that provides
15:26	<Lns> ogra_: i'd think that would be useful to utilize all the features
15:27	<ogra_> Lns, shutdown you mean ?
15:27	* ogra_ cant imagine any others
15:27	Q-FUNK has quit IRC
15:27	<Lns> ogra_: sure, WOL, etc
15:27	<alkisg1> Logon, logoff...
15:27	<ogra_> WOL ?
15:27	logon logoff works locally
15:27	<Lns> being able to do this from one computer instead of 40 is a good thing =) WOL = wake on lan
15:27	<ogra_> no need for chroot installs
15:28	i know what wake on lan is, what would italc have to do with that ?
15:28	thats a NIC feature
15:28	<alkisg1> ogra_, I don't think iTalc can see the clients before logging in if it's ran locally
15:28	<Lns> to turn on thin clients?
15:28	* ogra_ repeats: what would italc have to do with that ?
15:29	<ogra_> alkisg1, right, why would you need to apart from shutdown reboot functionallity
15:29	its the only feature i can imagine you would need a chrooted install for
15:29	<Lns> ogra_: simply being able to use the italc interface for WOL instead of something else i'm assuming
15:29	ugh..i shoulda backed up my chroot after hearing all this =p
15:29	<ogra_> Lns, you still need to configure the system to support that
15:29	<alkisg1> ogra_, I agree with you, I don't see much use to put it in the chroot...
15:29	<Lns> ogra_: true
15:30	<ogra_> there might be advantages i dont know about though, but i think in chroot is really only intresting with more than one server
15:30	but wait for stephane ... he can surely clearify
15:30	<Lns> k, no worries
15:31	<alkisg1> Lns, I think you can use WOL even if italc is in the chroot
15:31	You just have to provide it with the mac addresses
15:31	<Lns> well i'm just trying to connect to a live session right now.. =p
15:31	<alkisg1> It's a server-side only thing (WOL)
15:32	<Lns> do you have to be at the actual server console to work it? I'm on a thin-client myself trying to connect to another thin client
15:32	i'd assume it's one in the same
15:32	<alkisg1> Do you have a client? I didn't get what you said "trying to connect to your own rc"...
15:32	<Lns> alkisg1: i have 2 TCs and 1 server at my office
15:32	<alkisg1> You run italc-master from a client, and try to connect to it?
15:32	<Lns> yes
15:33	tried to connect to myself and the other TC
15:33	<alkisg1> You put the correct port?
15:33	<Lns> doesn't auto-detect and didn't work with "127.0.0.1:10051" or "localhost:10051") (also tried 11000 + last octet)
15:34	<alkisg1> If it's on the chroot, it wouldn't use 127.x...
15:34	no
15:34	* Lns applauds for conflicting documentation
15:34	<alkisg1> OK, I said it correctly
15:35	(thinking in English gets me mixed up sometimes... :()
15:35	You have to provide the actual IP
15:35	<Lns> ok..just tried that, no dice
15:35	<alkisg1> Can you upload ps aux\|grep ica on the ltspbot?
15:36	<Lns> is it 1100 or 10000 + last octet?
15:36	<alkisg1> (on the server and on the clients)
15:36	<Lns> err 11000
15:36	k
15:37	<alkisg1> 10000, if it is not on the chroot
15:37	<Lns> oh
15:38	alkisg1: nothing returned on server re: ica procs
15:38	how do you start master manually?
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15:39	<alkisg1> ica-launcher, I think, but there were some different scripts,
15:39	one for avahi, one for ltsp, one for simple standalone and something like that
15:39	Did you reboot after installing it?
15:39	<stgraber> ogra_: ica running on the thin client is not a waste of bandwidth, it was done for the exact opposite :)
15:40	<Lns> alkisg1: i didn't reboot the server, no..just the TCs
15:40	<alkisg1> ok, stgraber is here, I can shut up now! :P
15:40	<Lns> stgraber: i understand if you can't help me right now
15:41	<stgraber> Lns: is ica running on the thin client ?
15:42	<alkisg1> stgraber, it's not running on his server, how does he start it? (he didn't reboot after installation)
15:42	<Lns> stgraber: yes - /rofs/usr/bin/ica <switches>
15:42	OK - here's what I did
15:43	1) Added PPA repos to server + chroot
15:43	2) Installed italc-master + italc-client on server-side, italc-client on chroot
15:43	3) rm -rf /opt/ltsp/i386/etc/italc/keys; cp -a /etc/italc/keys /opt/ltsp/i386/etc/italc/keys
15:44	4) edit lts.conf for START_ITALC = True
15:44	5) rebooted thin-clients
15:44	(after ltsp-update-image)
15:44	and that's where i'm at now trying to connect.
15:45	<stgraber> running italc-launcher from the command line, what does it say ?
15:45	<Lns> stgraber: in chroot?
15:45	<stgraber> no
15:45	pmatulis has quit IRC
15:46	<ltsppbot> "Lns" pasted "stgraber - italc-launcher" (9 lines) at http://pastebot.ltsp.org/74
15:47	<Lns> erp...ok that's root running it, hold on
15:47	Now for some reason it says italc service isn't running (or keys blah blah)
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15:52	<alkisg> Lns, try ica-launcher before running italc-launcher
15:52	<Lns> alkisg: $ ica-launcher
15:52	ICA already running on the thin client.
15:52	<alkisg> No, on the server
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15:55	<Lns> alkisg: ok, said it was running, it killed it and restarted again
15:56	<alkisg> Now italc-launcher runs ok?
15:57	<Lns> alkisg: no..ugh now it complains that my keys are broken.
15:57	i didn't touch em...
15:57	bah! there we go
15:58	had to run as root
15:59	<alkisg> Wow, new italc-launcher, in python...
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16:00	<alkisg> Open ica-launcher, it has all these different scripts I was telling you about rolled into one
16:00	10000 for LTSP, 11000 for non-LTSP etc
16:00	So for chroot you'd probably need 11000
16:00	<X0d_of_N0d> alkisg: ica-launcher is bash?
16:01	* Lns waves to X0d_of_N0d
16:01	* X0d_of_N0d just stumbled in on the conversation
16:01	<alkisg> X0d_of_N0d, yes
16:01	* X0d_of_N0d waves back
16:01	<X0d_of_N0d> ouch
16:01	I mean, I love bash, but after 100 or 200 lines you just have to have python
16:01	<alkisg> But 11000 is the receiving port... the ip is different for ltsp, localhost is used
16:01	<X0d_of_N0d> or really just about anything that's !sh !perl
16:02	oh good, for a second I was like 11000 sloc?
16:02	in bash?
16:02	heh
16:02	<Lns> alkisg: well i was able to see all clients when at the server (vnc to 5901 gdm) and launching ica-launcher then italc-launcher
16:03	* X0d_of_N0d hasn't played around with italc yet.
16:03	<Lns> but not from my TC..can you not use italc-launcher from a TC at all?
16:03	<alkisg> Lns, but you can't see them from your TC...
16:03	Yes, stgraber once told me that was the normal way to do this,
16:03	and he gave me a modified script because I wanted to run it from the server!
16:04	<Lns> lol
16:04	* Lns is now officially lost
16:04	<alkisg> heh
16:05	<Lns> Since a lot of times, you can't easily get to the server console itself, it'd be ideal to be able to launch/use italc-launcher from a TC
16:05	* X0d_of_N0d goes back to what he was doing before....
16:05	<alkisg> Well, ps aux and netstat -natp on the TCs would reveal a lot about the communication status...
16:06	If you try italc-launcher from the TC, what do you get?
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16:09	<Lns> alkisg: it says it can't find the keys...maybe i have to chmod them? is there a group i need to be a part of other than admin/root ?
16:09	<alkisg> That was on the italc documentation, can't remember... let me see mine
16:09	<Lns> looks like it's set up to be admin read only
16:10	admin, teacher and supporter keys are all r--r----- root / admin
16:10	but i'm a member of admin group
16:11	<alkisg> Can you cat it?
16:11	<Lns> yes
16:12	<alkisg> And the error message is "iTalc keys not correctly installed" ?
16:12	<Lns> again, it does seem to work fine from the server (running italc-launcher as root) but not from my tc
16:12	<alkisg> Ah...
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16:13	<alkisg> These keys are on your TC disk, right?
16:13	And you run italc locally?
16:13	<Lns> yeah, "There seems to be no iTALC service running on this computer or the authentication-keys aren't set up properly. The service is required for ....."
16:13	Lns: yeah
16:14	lemme verify perms
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16:14	<Lns> alkisg: OH! no admin group in chroot!
16:14	<alkisg> No, wait, it shouldn't be this way.
16:15	Aren't you supposed to connect to the server and run it from there? (no vnc, normal ltsp)
16:15	So, italc-launcher should only be run on the server
16:16	(even if you see it on a tc)
16:16	<Lns> not sure..
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16:17	<Lns> if that's the case, than that kinda sucks because all of my servers are tucked away in server closets
16:17	<alkisg> I think so... Try to logon normally on the TC, and run it like every other ltsp app, not like local apps
16:17	<Lns> alkisg: that's what i'm doing
16:17	no local apps
16:18	<alkisg> Then why were you worried about admin group in chroot?
16:18	<Lns> the docs told me to copy the keys from the server to the chroot
16:18	<alkisg> Ica was started, you could see the clients from the server
16:19	So all you have to do now is run italc-launcher from a normal ltsp session
16:19	...but why it can't read the keys is beyond me!
16:19	<Lns> right...and that's when it gives me the "no italc service running" message ^^^
16:19	yeah
16:20	I use 5901 for gdm/vnc sessions.. that shouldn't step on 5900 though i'd assume
16:20	<stgraber> Lns: your user needs to have access to /etc/italc/keys//private/ so by default it must be in the admin group
16:21	that's probably why it worked when you ran it as root
16:21	<Lns> stgraber: my user is in the admin group though
16:21	i can view the keys and all
16:21	with my normal user
16:23	<stgraber> I'll update the package we now have in Intrepid to the PPA the italc-launcher has been modified for Intrepid so that may fix some of your issues
16:24	<Lns> stgraber: ok.. just fyi, the server-side italc works great, just can't use it from a TC
16:25	<alkisg> (Lns, for gdm/vnc I also use 5901 and it doesn't conflict with italc)
16:26	<Lns> alkisg: cool
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16:27	<alkisg> I'm thinking maybe when you ran it as root, or when you ran it from the server, ica remained running and it doesn't allow you now to run it again as a different user or from a different pc...
16:28	<Lns> hmm
16:28	lemme try from my laptop after installing it there, it's not a TC
16:34	hrm...nope, not from my laptop either...
16:34	it doesn't like me copying the keys from the server
16:36	It does now, after 'ica-launcher' then 'italc-launcher' (both as root)
16:36	<alkisg> You can see your TCs?
16:36	<Lns> yes, from my laptop
16:37	<alkisg> But why didn't it run as normal user? With ps aux, I see ica running as user alkisg...
16:38	<Lns> alkisg: ok i can run ica-launcher as my user, but italc-launcher still fails unless i run as root
16:39	but running ica-launcher as my user and italc-launcher as root works
16:39	i don't get messages i send to me though :(
16:39	<alkisg> ...and probably demo mode doesn't work as well?
16:40	<Lns> nope
16:40	but viewing/remote control works
16:41	<alkisg> There's something wrong on your laptop ica ports...
16:42	* Lns shrugs
16:42	<alkisg> I think you'd better wait for the intrepid scripts! :)
16:42	<Lns> It's cool, i'm done testing this out..will probably mess with it tomorrow
16:42	sounds like i should =)
16:42	alkisg, thanks for all your help
16:43	mucho appreciado
16:43	<alkisg> Lns, didn't do much... :(
16:43	<Lns> you helped me understand how it all works
16:43	<alkisg> np... goodnight from Greece
16:44	<Lns> =) thanks (from California)
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20:54	<sbalneav> Evening all
20:56	<jammcq> Scotty !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
20:58	<sbalneav> Hey jammcq!
21:02	<jammcq> hey, I'm reserving a room in Rochester, NY for the trip east
21:10	<sbalneav> Cool
21:10	That's where we stayed the last time, right?
21:10	<jammcq> yep
21:11	I picked that, cuz I'm familiar with it, and they have a pretty good work-out facility
21:11	and it's about 5.5 hours away from Detroit
21:23	Mighty-D has joined #ltsp
21:23	<Mighty-D> HI
21:24	I have a doubt, i want to acquire a windows server and use all my ltsp clients to go rdp on it, however i dont know how to do this on a legal way since i noticed cals are required for devices not for users, so if i have one ltsp server with 50 users i would only need one license?
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21:37	<sbalneav> Mighty-D: What, on the windows server?
21:37	No, you'd need 50 CAL's for windows terminal server
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21:41	<Mighty-D> sbalneav, really, ouch1!
21:43	<sbalneav> Sure, what, you'd figure Microsoft would give you something for nothing?
21:45	<Mighty-D> sbalneav, yah, microshit
21:46	<sbalneav> MS terminal server usually runs about $2500 (Canadian), and the CAL's are (up here) $100 a piece.
21:46	So, if you were up here, you'd be looking at about $7500
21:46	For the licenses
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21:47	<Mighty-D> sbalneav, thats really high
21:49	sbalneav, how much is a windows vista business license there
21:50	<sbalneav> $450
21:52	<Mighty-D> so you are still getting some money back if you switch to clas
21:52	err cals
21:52	still i think it is too high, microsteal
21:53	<sbalneav> Thaaaaaats why we're an all Linux shop where I am :)
21:53	We couln't afford windows.
21:53	<Mighty-D> yah
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22:23	<johnny> I AM SO TIRED OF THESE ISSUES WITH gvfs!
22:23	eep ~ # backup.sh
22:23	rsync: readlink_stat("/home/johnny/.gvfs") failed: Permission denied (13)
22:24	uggh.. why can't the damn thing play nice
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22:27	<kleewyck> Good evening ?
22:31	Anyone have experance with LTSP and powerpc (imac) ?
22:33	<johnny> very few people do, but it is possible..
22:33	<kleewyck> Johny I have it to the point where it boots the iMac. Kernel loads fires up X11 then I see the X cursor and then it just restarts.
22:34	<johnny> the whole machine? or just X?
22:34	<kleewyck> I can't figure out how to debug this..
22:34	Just X restarts over and over.
22:34	<johnny> how did you get ltsp for the mac?
22:34	<kleewyck> I booted ubuntu ppc edition, mount /opt/ltsp then ran ltsp-client-build
22:36	<johnny> you can set SCREEN_02=shell
22:36	in lts.conf
22:36	<kleewyck> Yes I can..
22:36	<johnny> and then go to the second console and check the xorg log
22:36	<kleewyck> but it won't stop loading X so I can't get control long enough to check the log.
22:36	Keeps switching over to the X Session.
22:37	<johnny> set a root password in the chroot
22:37	and then install ssh in there
22:37	and then boot the client after updating thei mage
22:37	then you can ssh into it
22:37	<kleewyck> oooo that's an Idea :)
22:39	thanks .. :) I'm doing that now..
22:41	now LDM should start a greeter that will connect out with ssh to the server when everything is working?
22:46	P.S. I just got in with SSH thanks!
22:53	<johnny> just so you can check the logs
22:53	it's not something most people need, since of course.. the keys will change every time
22:59	<kleewyck> yea ..
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23:19	<sbalneav> johnny: I applied a patch I found in one of the bug reports, that fixed it for me.
23:20	<johnny> what's that?
23:21	<sbalneav> gvfs
23:24	<johnny> the bug :)
23:30	<sbalneav> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gvfs/+bug/252796
23:32	Maybe it's been updated now. Bug seems to have been updated 2008/10/01
23:33	<johnny> this is while i'm still logged in
23:33	not at all related to ltsp.. i was just whining
23:34	try doing find $HOME while gvfs is still running
23:35	hmm.. altho.. i am updating to the newest gvfs.. maybe it will be fixed then
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23:38	<sbalneav> What, find as root?
23:39	oh207 has joined #ltsp
23:39	<sbalneav> Yeah, unless you do something like add allow_root to your /etc/fuse.conf, only the user will be able to access a fuse mounted directory
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23:59	<johnny> i had user_allow_other