IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.libera.chat (webchat)
Channel log from 8 June 2014 (all times are UTC)
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| 02:39 | <Asterisks> hello gbaman
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| 13:50 | <muppis> I'm stuck. I need ltsp functionality, but I want rw nfs as root. o.0
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| 14:44 | <muppis> Says no export entry even exportfs -v shows it.
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| 14:46 | Never mind, my bad..
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| 14:59 | <alkisg> muppis: note that booting an NFS client as an LTSP client, will create an aufs mount on top of it, making the "rw" mount effectively "ro"
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| 14:59 | I.e. when init=/sbin/init-ltsp
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| 15:00 | <muppis> I noted that and skipped it so far by adding exit 0 to begin of scripts/init-bottom/ltsp
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| 15:01 | Now I got partly what I want, nfs rw root without aufs. This is slow as h***.
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| 15:01 | Now trying to make readling from nbd and writing to nfs.
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| 15:01 | -l
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| 15:02 | By replacing tmpfs mount with nfs mount in scripts/init-bottom/nfs
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| 15:02 | I meant scripts/init-bottom/ltsp
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| 15:03 | <muppis> And probably adding an option to choose between them by kernel param.
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| 15:07 | <alkisg> muppis, you can have an rw nbd root
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| 15:07 | or even an rw file, loop-mounted over nfs
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| 15:07 | Both of those should be faster than nfs
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| 15:09 | <muppis> Is those easily disabled or enable in cmdlline?
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| 15:09 | <alkisg> sure
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| 15:10 | <muppis> In 12.04?
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| 15:10 | <alkisg> Yes
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| 15:10 | nbdroot by default is rw
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| 15:10 | <muppis> Cool.
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| 15:10 | <alkisg> You just need to set it rw on the server, and omit init=/sbin/init-ltsp
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| 15:11 | But note that you'll want an ext3/4/btrfs image, not a squashfs one
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| 15:11 | btrfs with compression should have the best performance
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| 15:18 | <muppis> I think getting an idea of this.
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| 15:38 | Do I take care any special in chroot to use btrfs via nbd?
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| 17:06 | <muppis> Is it possible that btrfs image is fourth from squashfs image?
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| 19:17 | <muppis> Does Gnome Shell work correctly in thins or do I need use 2D version?
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| 19:18 | <Asterisks> no reason it shouldn't
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| 19:18 | unless their GPU's are THAT crappy
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| 19:19 | <muppis> In fats and locally installed works right, so it shouldn't be. It's long time I've been playing around with ltsp last time.
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| 19:20 | And back then 3D effects didn't work.
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| 19:20 | <Asterisks> Same here, to be honest. I looking into ltsp about a year ago. only back in here cause I've got an application for it now
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| 19:21 | I'm trying to think of any reason why it wouldn't work, and I can't think of any..
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| 19:26 | <muppis> I just build thin image, so need to setup nvidia and then I see.
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| 19:27 | <Asterisks> how big a system are you setting up?
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| 19:27 | just out of curiosity
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| 19:30 | <muppis> Just for my home ritght now, one client. But just fresh up my memory because I think I need upgrade our customer system at work during this summer. That one contains about 30 thin clients.
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| 19:30 | <vagrantc> gnome-3 has issues with some thin client hardware
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| 19:31 | <muppis> vagrantc, any specific to name?
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| 19:31 | <vagrantc> nothing specific, but it's definitely a common issue
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| 19:31 | <muppis> Ok.
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| 19:32 | <vagrantc> any software that requires hardware acceleration *may* have issues on a thinclient
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| 19:32 | <muppis> And it's like a throwing a dice?
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| 19:32 | <vagrantc> depending on the software, it may have fallbacks to software acceleration or whatnot
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| 19:33 | muppis: i'm sure there are patterns, but i'm not aware of specifically documenting what models work with what versions of this and that
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| 19:33 | <muppis> Alright.
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| 19:33 | <vagrantc> would be an interesting project
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| 19:34 | <muppis> Definitely.
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| 19:40 | Looks like doesn't work with GF119 (Nvidia GT 520)
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| 19:44 | * alkisg hasn't seen hardware 3d acceleration working in thin clients for ages | |
| 19:46 | <Asterisks> gah, I'm trying to decide how I want to present a thin client system to a local school
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| 19:46 | I forget what the hardware specs on most of their machines are, so I'm caught between fat or thin clients...
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| 19:47 | <muppis> Present it as it is planned. It runs almost any hw available.
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| 19:47 | <Asterisks> thin clients do, fats don't
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| 19:47 | and fats are a much better idea as far as multimedia
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| 19:47 | <muppis> Thins what's it's all about.
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| 19:48 | <Asterisks> =|
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| 19:48 | if the hardware can do the work, theres no reason to have it sitting there and putting more work on the server(s)
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| 19:49 | especially considering the network bottlenecks
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| 19:49 | <vagrantc> at this point in technological history, i'd recommend fatclients if at all possible
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| 19:49 | <alkisg> Asterisks: from what you've reported, I'm guessing Pentium 4 with 256/512 RAM
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| 19:49 | <Asterisks> Probably
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| 19:49 | so, I'm lookinga t thins for most of the system
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| 19:49 | <alkisg> So with 10€ per client you can get them to become fats
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| 19:49 | And you can use their local disks for nbd caching
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| 19:50 | So as to save money on switches, server etc
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| 19:50 | <Asterisks> 10euros, plus opening up 60 computers and adding RAM (assuming it's not something like 2 256mb sticks that I'd have to get rid of both of them)
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| 19:51 | <alkisg> Many boards can get up to 4x256 RAM
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| 19:51 | <Asterisks> true, still two more sticks to add, spending time opening computers that have been sitting for 8+ years
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| 19:52 | will it be worth the manpower (me slaving away adding RAM to every computer in a building) for the fat clients
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| 19:52 | <vagrantc> you either have to accept the limitations of thin clients, or use fat clients...
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| 19:52 | <muppis> Is there easy way to run apps at server when using fats? Like more CPU consuming rendering.
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| 19:52 | <alkisg> The networking parts need work too, replacing the switches with gigabit, taking care of flow control etc, for thins
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| 19:52 | muppis: remote apps
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| 19:52 | The "opposite" of localapps...
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| 19:53 | <muppis> alkisg, thanks.
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| 19:53 | <vagrantc> localapps/remoteapps, while an interesting theory, have a lot of surprises in practical use...
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| 19:53 | i'd recommend going all thin or all fat, in general
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| 19:53 | * alkisg advices teachers here the same thing... | |
| 19:54 | <Asterisks> I plan on replacing the backbone with all gigabit switches/cat6
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| 19:54 | <vagrantc> there are always exception, as long as you really know what you're doing
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| 19:54 | <Asterisks> to the clients will be 100mbit
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| 19:54 | the only real limitation I'm seeing with thin clients is the multimedia....
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| 19:54 | <alkisg> !flow-control
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| 19:54 | <ltsp`> flow-control: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/FlowControl
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| 19:54 | <alkisg> Asterisks: do read that ^ before buying switches
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| 19:54 | I.e. if they're not managed, you'll have issues
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| 19:54 | <Asterisks> no flow control
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| 19:54 | gotcha
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| 19:54 | <muppis> And what about loading image from grub and using over wlan? I know wlan is pita, but I'd to benefit more from my notebook.
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| 19:55 | <alkisg> !local-boot
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| 19:55 | <ltsp`> local-boot: If you want LTSP fat clients on a low-speed network, you can put i386.img on e.g. C:\Boot\LTSP\i386.img and use this command line in pxelinux.cfg: APPEND ro initrd=ltsp/i386/initrd.img init=/sbin/init-ltsp root=/dev/sda1 rootflags=ro loop=/Boot/LTSP/i386.img; IPAPPEND 3
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| 19:55 | <Asterisks> the multimedia is a crappy limitation... but how bad is that really going to be for most things
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| 19:55 | <alkisg> ...and a static wlan connection...
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| 19:56 | <vagrantc> Asterisks: it can make many multimedia rich websites unuseable...
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| 19:56 | <Asterisks> vagrantc: like what sites?
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| 19:57 | <alkisg> And libreoffice impress, tuxpaint/tuxtype, gimp... lots of applications
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| 19:57 | Even just selecting cells in libreoffice calc needs too much bandwidth, and lags a lot on thin clients...
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| 19:58 | <Asterisks> alkisg: with a laptop, you still have to have a local boot mgr to boot the img, the wifi won't connect to let pxe boot request it
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| 19:58 | <alkisg> local boot manager ==> grub, muppis mentioned that
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| 19:58 | pxe ==> not needed in local boot
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| 19:58 | <Asterisks> didn't see that, sorry. missed a message
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| 19:59 | And I got you.. I'll see exactly what the hardware specs on the computers are while I'm there, and plan the budget as if we will be upgrading them.
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| 20:05 | <vagrantc> Asterisks: the internet is a big place...
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| 20:05 | <Asterisks> vagrantc: that it is, though it's relevance to this discussion is debatable.
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| 20:05 | <vagrantc> Asterisks: and the future internet is even bigger ...
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| 20:06 | Asterisks: it's one of the most common complaints about thin clients
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| 20:06 | Asterisks: that arbitrary websites don't work well because of multimedia
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| 20:06 | <Asterisks> true, sites aren't exactly nice on bandwidth anymore
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| 20:07 | <vagrantc> Asterisks: if you want a comprehensive list, it'll take weeks to compile all the sites people have complained about
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| 20:07 | Asterisks: so that's the relevence
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| 20:07 | <Asterisks> true, but is that more because of thin clients themselves or networking problems with their setups
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| 20:08 | <vagrantc> basically, it's a general problem, and getting a list of specific sites isn't actually very helpful
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| 20:08 | and it's a constantly changing list...
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| 20:09 | Asterisks: it's a challenge of the thin client model
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| 20:09 | <Asterisks> yes, it is.
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| 20:09 | i g2g, back in like 20 mins
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| 20:09 | <vagrantc> Asterisks: i'd wager most software these days is being written with assumptions that don't work well in a thin client model
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| 20:10 | good luck
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| 20:33 | <Asterisks> I'm back
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| 20:34 | How bad is X11 on network bandwidth, anyway?
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| 20:44 | <Asterisks> hey p
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| 20:44 | hey Phantomas*
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| 20:44 | <Phantomas> hello
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