IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.freenode.net (webchat)


Channel log from 1 September 2019   (all times are UTC)

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06:33
<Vb>
Hi This is VB here from India, I was trying to understand if i can use Windows based applications on LSTP server on linux for windows 10 workstations
06:33
sip phones and microsoft excel are the applications we are looking to install
06:33
Please help
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07:11
<alkisg>
vagrantc, I didn't put jetpipe to ltsp19 because it was python2, but also because I wanted to see if there's still need for it, now with only fat clients and cups and driverless printing
07:11
A last ltsp release sounds good, maybe even addressing that ldm security issue
07:12
If jetpipe in python3 doens't work (e.g. due to removed/wrong dependencies), it would be best if it was released with python2 though, we don't want to break printing in that last release
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19:28
<alkisg>
vagrantc: re: jetpipe/python2, see irclogs...
19:30
<vagrantc>
!irclog
19:30
<ltsp>
I do not know about 'irclog', but I do know about these similar topics: 'irclogs'
19:30
<vagrantc>
!irclogs
19:30
<ltsp>
irclogs: This channel is logged, archives are available at http://irclogs.ltsp.org
19:32
<vagrantc>
python2 is removed from debian, so it's either drop jetpipe or use python3
19:32
at least from my perspective
19:32
<alkisg>
When you say last release, do you mean for buster, which supports python2, or for bullseye?
19:32
Afaik bullseye will get ltsp19, won't it?
19:33
<vagrantc>
not really possible to do any significant changes for buster
19:33
it's released already
19:33
<alkisg>
so the last release will e.g. break 18.04 or other existing users, and benefit who?
19:33
<vagrantc>
at least, not within buster
19:34
if we want to support both concurrently, backports to buster, etc.
19:34
why will it break 18.04 ?
19:34
surely 18.04 has python3 ...
19:34
<alkisg>
assuming jetpipe doesn't work correctly with python3
19:35
<vagrantc>
well, the changes looked pretty minimal
19:35
might even work with either
19:35
<alkisg>
are all the dependencies there?
19:36
<vagrantc>
only one i might wonder is python3-serial
19:36
packages.ubuntu.com doesn't seem to be working; can you check?
19:37
it would also remove the need for python2 in ltsp at all; ldm was converted to python3 a while ago, so ltsp+ldm requires both
19:37
(although there's probably some other random stuff using python2)
19:37
the other option is just committing to dropping ltsp 5.x for bullseye
19:38
but ltsp will be removed from bullseye soon unless the python2 issue is fixed
19:39
so could revert the upstream change i made, and apply it to debian packaging only...
19:39* alkisg is committed to only supporting ltsp19+ :)
19:39
<vagrantc>
sure, but we had talked about a transition period, too
19:39
<alkisg>
But bullseye were to get ltsp19 in all cases
19:39
<vagrantc>
e.g. the next ubuntu LTS release might have ltsp 5.x
19:40
<uumas>
vagrantc: There's still about 2,5 years until bullseye is released while the next Ubuntu lts is in 8 months
19:40
<vagrantc>
will ubuntu support python2 for the next LTS?
19:40
<alkisg>
Possibly not
19:41
<vagrantc>
well, python2 is officially unsupported upstream in just a few months
19:41
alkisg: so, then that's who would benefit from switching to python3...
19:41
<alkisg>
If it works I don't have any issue with it
19:42
But if it's untested, it doesn't benefit anyone...
19:42
<vagrantc>
https://pythonclock.org/ says 4 months
19:42
i don't have any way to test it
19:42
at least, not reliably
19:43
if there's no python2, it also doesn't benefit anyone to keep it :P
19:43
<alkisg>
18.04 still gets new releases from the ppa
19:43
So when anything breaks, I fix it
19:44* vagrantc is curious how long LTS distros will continue to support python2
19:45
<vagrantc>
surely ubuntu has a plan for this?
19:45
<uumas>
vagrantc: Haven't heard an official word, but I'd say it should be dropped by 22, possibly 20
19:46
<alkisg>
ubuntu 18.04 is supported for 5 years
19:46
they'll support python2 till then
19:46
<vagrantc>
https://askubuntu.com/questions/1127122/python2-support-in-18-04-lts
19:48* vagrantc would like to find something more official...
19:48
<uumas>
Oh yes, of course they'll have to support it for the support cycle of the last release which includes it, but the question is if that release is 18 or 20
19:49
<vagrantc>
"have to support it" has sometimes meant dropping support for some packages.
19:54
<uumas>
vagrantc: What's debian's stance on it? Buster is to be supported until 2024 and includes python2.
19:54
<vagrantc>
good question
19:55* alkisg can't believe they would drop 500 or so packages along with python2
19:56
<uumas>
They can't drop the packages as that WOULD break lots of things, but the really can't really keep unsupprted packages in the official repos either. I.e.
19:56
They just have to support it
19:56
<alkisg>
How so? Isn't that what they've always been doing?
19:56
I've seen lots and lots of unsupported packages; they just got removed in the next release
19:57
Ubuntu supports things in main, it doesn't care about universe, but python2 is in main
19:58
<vagrantc>
anyways, we've seen this trainwreck coming from a long ways off ...
19:58
thankfully, not a huge impact for ltsp at this point
19:58
worst case is remove jetpipe
19:59
debian has dropped support for major known packages in the past in point releases
20:00
<uumas>
But this is python we're talking about
20:00
It would break thousands of systems
20:00
<alkisg>
What about the other python2 scripts in ltsp5? Are they automatically detected and will trigger a removal, even if they're not important for us?
20:00
For example... ltspfs/doc/examples/kde-desktop-icons:#!/usr/bin/python
20:00
ltsp/server/k12linux/scripts/chroot-creator:#!/usr/bin/python -tt
20:00
etc etc, lots of scripts that we might not even need, but they're there
20:01
translations/ldm/generate_locale_list.py:#!/usr/bin/python
20:02
<vagrantc>
pretty sure generate_locale_list was made to work with either at some point
20:02
<alkisg>
Will the shebang trigger the warning bot? It's not "python3" there...
20:02
<vagrantc>
i didn't find any in ltsp itself that would be an issue from Debian's perspective ... i don't think anyone's usiong k12linux, for example
20:03
it might issue a warning, but i won't let it get removed over that
20:03
only thing that really matters is code that's actually used
20:03* uumas sent a long message: < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/v1/download/matrix.org/OeAwgxMHWMNVZiruXaXylFOF >
20:04
<alkisg>
(11:03:52 PM) ***uumas sent a long message: < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/v1/download/matrix.org/OeAwgxMHWMNVZiruXaXylFOF >
20:04
That matrix has its shortcomings :D
20:04
<vagrantc>
not up for clickbait :P
20:04
<alkisg>
!ltsp-source
20:04
<ltsp>
ltsp-source: https://github.com/ltsp/ltsp/
20:04
<alkisg>
!ltsp5-source
20:04
<ltsp>
ltsp5-source: https://code.launchpad.net/ltsp
20:05
<uumas>
<alkisg "(11:03:52 PM) ***uumas sent a lo"> Oh, that's interesting
20:06
<alkisg>
Wth, `git pull` tells me up to date, `git remote -v` says launchpad, yet I don't see commits after May...
20:06
OK wrong branch, on debian
20:07
Well, at least jetpipe runs (I can't test printers remotely)... that's a good sign
20:08
<vagrantc>
thanks for testing that much :)
20:08
<alkisg>
if o in ("-h", "--help"): # help text
20:08
sys.exit()
20:08
Hehe nice :D
20:08
ogra really hates man pages AND help messages
20:09
<vagrantc>
alkisg: ah, for ldm i've patched to use bin/python3 in the shebangs, but didn't push upstream
20:09
so i haven't found any bin/python shebangs i'd be worried about
20:09* alkisg really gets confused with the debian patches that belong upstream...
20:10
<vagrantc>
not all distros ship "python3"
20:11
in some python is python 3.x
20:11
<alkisg>
Afaik pep says python3, so we don't care what those distros say
20:11
<vagrantc>
oh
20:11
python enhancement proposal?
20:11
<alkisg>
Let me verify...
20:12
<uumas>
I guess python will be python3 on debian too once python2 is dropped
20:12
<vagrantc>
not sure on that
20:12
which is why i used a distro-specific patch
20:12
<alkisg>
https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0394/ => " python3 should run some version of the Python 3 interpreter."
20:12
So python3 is guaranteed, python is not
20:13
If the python command is installed, it is expected to invoke either the same version of Python as the python3 command or as the python2 command.
20:13
<vagrantc>
ok, let's push that upstream to ... LDM :P
20:13
<alkisg>
They may even choose to not provide a python command at all. But python3 needs to be there.
20:15
<uumas>
Apparently on Ubuntu (and I assume debian) `python` is just a symlink to `python2.7` (and on arch it's a symlink to `python3`)
20:15
I'd assume debian will just change that symlink to `python3`
20:15
<alkisg>
Essentially scripts shouldn't be using "python" in shebangs anymore
20:15
<vagrantc>
right
20:15
<alkisg>
It's either python2 or python3
20:16
<uumas>
FTFY: It's python3
20:17
<vagrantc>
ftfy?
20:17
<uumas>
*fixed that dor you
20:17
s/dor/for/
20:18
<vagrantc>
alkisg: ok, well, that's clear at least :)
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20:18
<alkisg>
vagrantc: if you issue a new release, that means the PPA builds will start working again, right?
20:19
If I recall correctly, the last time you had some patches that were applied upstream and required that I maintained another debian dir, which I didn't find time to do...
20:19
<vagrantc>
alkisg: not sure what you mean...
20:19
<alkisg>
So I think that if you do another release now, builds will work again, which will be great
20:20
ltsp - 5.18.12+t201905250652~ubuntu18.04.1 ==> ok last build in May, not bad
20:20
<vagrantc>
i don't see any patches in LDM that are applied upstream
20:21
<alkisg>
I think it was in ltsp
20:21
<vagrantc>
i see
20:21
yeah, i should be able to upstream all the patches
20:21
<alkisg>
Anyway I mean I'm glad if you're planning to do a last release, I think it'll help
20:22
<vagrantc>
well, can always release the python3 jetpipe and if nobody complains... then it either works or nobody's using it
20:22
<alkisg>
I'd need to upload to ppa though, at least for ubuntu users to get it
20:22
Not sure how debian users get the new releases (since buster is released now)
20:23
so I'd need to test it first...
20:23
But sure, let's do that
20:24
uumas, where you the one that reported the ldm security issue?
20:24
<uumas>
Yes
20:24
<alkisg>
Did you check the code for a fix?
20:24
<vagrantc>
i'm kind of dreading that issue
20:25
<uumas>
alkisg: What code?
20:25
<alkisg>
The ldm code, in case you could see where the problem was...
20:25
!ldm-source
20:25
<ltsp>
ldm-source: at https://code.launchpad.net/~ltsp-upstream/ltsp/+git/ldm
20:25
<alkisg>
...something like that...
20:27
<uumas>
Oh, no I didn't. I can have a look, but I have little experience with coding, so I'm probably not the best to spot that.
20:28* alkisg is busy with ltsp19 and vagrantc doesn't even have any ltsp installations around, so ltsp5 can use all the help it can get... :/
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20:50
<alkisg>
vagrantc: ah, I just remembered what your last proposal was. To upload ltsp5 under a new source name, maybe ltsp5? so that both the new and old ltsp can be available for a period of time
20:51
For 20.04 users, that would be the best option
20:51
<vagrantc>
alkisg: yes
20:51
it may involve some interesting dances
20:52
<alkisg>
I think that would attract more users to the new ltsp, and make it more stable for bullseye, where it will be the only option...
20:53
About the new ltsp, I think I'll fix the tmpfs issue that uumas reported with new kernels, and make ltsp.ipxe completely auto-generated, and release it as 19.09 beta
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20:54
<alkisg>
And then spend some time on getting "sch-scripts" working with the new ltsp, so that I can put it in a few school next week
20:55
ok pumpkin time... byez for now :)
20:56* vagrantc waves
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23:30
<vagrantc>
uumas: i haven't yet figured out why, but the LDM_USERNAME variable is unset for fish, csh and tcsh...
23:31
the quick security fix is to exit when the username fails...
23:31
er, when the username is unset.