IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.freenode.net (webchat)


Channel log from 27 March 2013   (all times are UTC)

00:00* vagrantc makes a note to tone down the description of ltsp-client* packages
00:01
<gbaman>
:)
00:03
ok, so install the packages, edit boot file, add ssh keys, check ldm server and boot pi...
00:03
them it should work?
00:03
<vagrantc>
approximately ... might be some glitch missing :)
00:04
<gbaman>
well, at least you cant brick a pi
00:04
and it takes 3 mins to reload rasbian back onto the sd card
00:04
<vagrantc>
oh, the rpi kernel may not have aufs support
00:04
<gbaman>
...
00:05
it can never be that easy...
00:05
<vagrantc>
the one shipped by the foundation had a lot of features disabled ... that's why i ended up getting the linux-image-*-rpi packages available for raspbian
00:06
but those may require older firmwares, since they're linux version 3.2 vs. 3.6 (i think that's what they are now)
00:07
<gbaman>
so... this means... it will either work or will never work?
00:07
<vagrantc>
it's a work in progress :)
00:07
maybe i'll take a look at the state of things this weekend
00:08* vagrantc never did document running LTSP on the RPI like promised
00:08
<gbaman>
i need to present this to a local school in about 2 weeks time
00:08
persuade them to get raspberry pis
00:08
<vagrantc>
everyone's always in a rush...
00:08
<gbaman>
and this is something they will complain about
00:09
important coursework on raspberry pi sd cards never goes well
00:10
could one not just recompile the kernal with aufs enabled?
00:10
or is it a little more complicated than that?
00:11
take into account i am from a windows/mac environment and been using th pi as my intro to linux
00:11
so new to all this
00:12
<vagrantc>
you could recompile the kernel till you get all the needed features ... that'll take some long cycles.
00:13
<gbaman>
cycles?
00:13
<vagrantc>
you won't get it right the first try, and takes hours for each build
00:13
a slow development cycle
00:15
<gbaman>
what about?
00:15
<vagrantc>
compiling the kernel
00:15
<gbaman>
http://rpitc.blogspot.co.uk/p/kernel-rebuild.html?m=1
00:15
sorry, link wasnt copying
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00:22
<gbaman>
is that looking right?
00:22
<vagrantc>
sorry, don't have time to go over more right now
00:24
<gbaman>
ok, well i will try the ltsp-client stuff first, if it fails i will try that guide, if it then fails i will come back.
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00:24
<gbaman>
and if it works, i will come back and let you know
00:25
anyways,i am off, thanks vagrantc, you have been very helpful
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12:13
<ltspuser_81>
Hi
12:13
I want to mount a windows share at user's login
12:13
I'm using Ubuntu 12.04
12:13
and a ldm session
12:14
I want to know if it's possible to add the command to a file where I have the login information
12:14
when the user insert the credentials at the greeter I want to use that and mount the share
12:15
it's possible?
12:15
where I can add the mount command?
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12:30
<dievel>
Hi Hyperbyte. Dumb question...can my LTSP act as a a gateway between the thin client network and the "local" network?
12:31
<laurense>
my edubuntu installation did that automatically
12:33
hmm, maybe i am incorrect
12:33
don't mind me
12:33* laurense sneaks away
12:37
<Hyperbyte>
dievel, sure.
12:37
<ltspuser_81>
where are the LDM init scripts?
12:38
the ones that starts with I, S or K depending on when you want them to run
12:38
<Hyperbyte>
dievel, you have two network cards in your server, configured for both networks?
12:38
ltspuser_81, /usr/share/ldm/ in the client chroot.
12:38
<ltspuser_81>
thks Hyperbyte
12:38
did you saw my last question?
12:39
<Hyperbyte>
Yep.
12:39
<ltspuser_81>
do you know anything about that?
12:39
<Hyperbyte>
Nope.
12:39
<ltspuser_81>
ok
12:39
<Hyperbyte>
Else I would've answered. :)
12:39
<ltspuser_81>
thks anyway ;)
12:39
:)
12:39
<Hyperbyte>
You could ask your question again later, when alkisg is around.
12:39
He's the LTSP oracle.
12:39
<ltspuser_81>
ok
12:39
I will try
12:39
I know :P
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12:43
<ltspuser_81>
what it means the I,X,S and K on /uss/share/ldm/rc.d/ of the chroot?
12:44
<dievel>
Hyperbyte, I have basically the default configuration. One interface on a local lan and the second one (eth1) on a separate network with the thin client.
12:46
On the Thin client network I have a printer that I should make available to the lan clients.
12:47
Normally I can do this but I'm not sure it's wise in a LTSP environment :)
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12:57
<Hyperbyte>
dievel, I don't think it will matter
12:58
But, have you considered just making the LTSP server a print server?
13:02
<dievel>
No, I did not considered that. But in the same way, a notebook that connect to the Thin Client network is asked to reach the Internet.
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13:02
<dievel>
So the needed routing is in both ways :)
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13:02
<Hyperbyte>
dievel, well you could just enable ipv4 routing. Since you said you can do this normally, I figure you know how?
13:03
<dievel>
Hyperbyte, I see /proc/sys/net/ipv4/ip_forward is already at "1". Is there something else?
13:03
<Hyperbyte>
Routing is always both ways, by the way, network communication involves a lot of negotiating between devices back-and-forth. One way routing is not useful. :)
13:04
dievel, shouldn't be. Can you ping hosts in network B from network A?
13:05
<dievel>
Hyperbyte You are right :) I'm doing some test now.
13:06
<Hyperbyte>
If you can't ping from A to B and vice-versa, the hosts probably do not have the correct default route gateway set.
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13:08
<ltspuser_70>
hey guys, where is the lts.conf meant to be stored when ltsp-client is installed on an already in place OS?
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13:08
<ltspuser_22>
hi
13:09
i want no know about xp booting via ltsp
13:09
<dievel>
Hyperbyte...well...I need more time because I have also another firewall between me and my LTSP. Nothing is easy :) As usual!
13:09
<ltspuser_22>
is there any commercial product based on ltsp?
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13:38
<gbaman>
anyone had experience with an LTSP fat client on an installed OS, aka not netbooting?
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13:39
<gbaman>
using the ltsp-client packages
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13:41
<jammcq>
good morning friends
13:41
<gbaman>
anyone?
13:45
<alkisg>
Hi jammcq
13:45
gbaman: it's just a matter of a few lines in the initramfs
13:45
But that's not what you want
13:45
What you want is central authentication + home, not central configuration from lts.conf etc etc
13:46
So you're basically looking for setting up NFS /home, and for sbalneav's libpam_sshauth
13:46
That one will allow you to use server-side users, locally
13:46
<gbaman>
I think that is what I want...
13:46
<alkisg>
And for handling updates etc, I suggest you look at cluster-ssh
13:47
libpam_sshauth is a very new project, but it does exactly what you need
13:47
So I'd suggest you start with NFS /home first, and then follow the LTSP wiki page for libpam_sshauth
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13:50
<alkisg>
The LTSP approach to what you're saying, would be to (1) netboot a client, (2) copy i386.img locally, and (3) use the local i386.img copy for subsequent boots, for low-speed networks
13:50
<sbalneav>
Morning all
13:50
<ltspuser_41>
I create Two Images and ı want to delete one of them , any one have an Idea how to delete ımage after creatıon wıth "ltsp-build-client-
13:51
<sbalneav>
ltspuser_41: Using rm?
13:52
<ltspuser_41>
rm -r the dırectory that conatine the image
13:52
<sbalneav>
jammcq: Morning
13:52
alkisg: Morning.
13:56
<gbaman>
alkisg, the reason I want to do it this way is I am wanting network users (like roaming profiles) for a classroom of raspberry pis
13:56
raspberry pis cant netboot
13:56
<jammcq>
sbalneav: Scotty !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
13:57
<gbaman>
so building the OS for them and having it on their sd card is much smarter
13:57
<alkisg>
Hey Scotty
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13:57
<alkisg>
gbaman: what local storage do PIs have?
13:57* ogra_ is sure the RPi can netboot just as well as a beagleboard or a pandaboard ... you just need kernel and initrd locally
13:57
<gbaman>
And I have already looked into setting up network users with LDAP and samba etc but it is looking crazy complicated, LTSP already has a perfect system for it
13:57
they run of an sd card
13:58
<alkisg>
Which you pay separately?
13:58
<gbaman>
you mean buy seperately? yes
13:58
<alkisg>
Then it's not worth it, network root is better
13:58
<ogra_>
alkisg, it works the same way as any NANDless arm device
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13:59
<ogra_>
put kernel and ltsp'ified initrd on the SD and be done
13:59* gbaman is still very new to linux and network root means nothing to him :)
13:59
<alkisg>
gbaman: how many clients?
13:59
<gbaman>
20ish
13:59
<ogra_>
(and set the proper boot options on the kernel cmdline)
13:59
<gbaman>
between 15-20
13:59
also, their ethernet ports are 10/100, not gigabit
13:59
<alkisg>
Do you have a server with a gigabit NIC, and some Gb space, and a switch with 1 gigabit port/
13:59
?
14:00
<gbaman>
yes
14:00
but
14:00
we dont want thin clients
14:00
<alkisg>
LTSP supports fat clients too
14:00
<gbaman>
just in case you were going that direction
14:00
fat clients with the pi?
14:00
<alkisg>
Sure
14:00
<dievel>
Hyperbyte, it works. Just to let you know. Thx ;)
14:00
<gbaman>
well, that is what I want, but the image to be stored on the pi
14:01
the entire OS on the pi
14:01
<alkisg>
Why? It'll be slower
14:01
<gbaman>
we want to use local power and local hardware
14:01
thin clients wouldnt work
14:01
<alkisg>
LTSP fat clients use local power and local hardware
14:01
<gbaman>
I also dont want to be hammering the network each time they turn on
14:02
<alkisg>
(although pi is very low-spec'ed to be a fat client, or for local os installations, but that's another story)
14:02
<gbaman>
they will be turned on all at one time
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14:02
<alkisg>
Yeah, it'll still be faster to netboot them than to boot them locally
14:02
<gbaman>
and the pi already has a slow boot
14:02
?
14:03
I would doubt netbooting a classroom of pis would be faster than local booting them
14:03
the server hardware available wont be fast
14:03
<alkisg>
The last real benchmarks I did with fat clients vs local installations: local boot 50 secs, netboot 12 secs. For a classroom of 12 fat clients.
14:03
That was with Ubuntu 10.04, now 12.04 is a bit slower.
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14:04
<alkisg>
You don't need a fast server for fat clients. Just a bit of RAM to cache the i386.img image.
14:04
<gbaman>
raspberry pi is arm
14:04
<alkisg>
Right
14:04
<gbaman>
and runs rasbian (based off debian)
14:04
<alkisg>
Yup
14:05
<gbaman>
and some will have 256mb of ram
14:05
<alkisg>
Yup
14:05
<gbaman>
sigh
14:05
<alkisg>
And its CPU is very slow
14:05
<gbaman>
yes
14:05
<alkisg>
So they're not suited for local installations
14:05
They're much better as ltsp thin clients, but you don't want that
14:05
So, you're just comparing local installations vs ltsp fat clients
14:06
Which is the same thing, except that ltsp fat clients need less ram because they have some services disabled,
14:06
<gbaman>
Ok, lets just say I would prefer not to transfer the os across the network
14:06
<alkisg>
and have faster disk access compared to sd cards
14:06
<gbaman>
what are my options
14:06
<alkisg>
The one we were talking before I mentioned ltsp fat clients.
14:07
raspbian, nfs, and one of (ldap/nis/samba/libpam_sshauth)
14:07
But ltsp fat clients will get you better performance, and easier installation
14:07
so... up to you.
14:07
<gbaman>
vagrantc was talking with me yesterday on an idea he had
14:08
http://irclogs.ltsp.org./
14:08
about 20 mins before midnight we started
14:08
talking
14:08
so it is right at the top of the log
14:08
that involved installing ltsp-client packages on the pi
14:09
<alkisg>
No point in doing that, you only need /home + authentication, you're not looking for central configuration with lts.conf (and ltsp has nothing more to offer to you if you're not doing netbooting)
14:10
<gbaman>
other than its simplicity
14:10
<alkisg>
It's more hard to do it than setting up NIS or LDAP.
14:10
Or, libpam_sshauth
14:10
Because you're not using a stock ltsp installation, you're customizing it
14:10
<gbaman>
I have yet to be able to find any help on other of them
14:11
*either
14:11
<alkisg>
Btw did you actually use raspbian on a pi? Were you satisfied by its performance?
14:11
<gbaman>
I always use it
14:11
it is fine
14:11
great to have all the debian packages
14:11
and i normally overclock it anyway
14:12
<alkisg>
What's the output of this command? su -; hdparm -tT /dev/sda
14:12
<gbaman>
what does it do?
14:12
<alkisg>
It benchmarks the SD card
14:12
If it's less than 20 MB/sec, then LTSP fat clients will be faster.
14:13
(it might be something else than sda there, e.g. mmcp0something
14:13
<gbaman>
I am getting
14:13
su: Authentication failure -bash: hdparm: command not found
14:13
<alkisg>
Install hdparm
14:13
<gbaman>
I have not set up the root account on the pi, it is rather weirdly set up
14:14
<||cw>
it doesn't have sudo?
14:14
<gbaman>
when i do that i get
14:14
sudo: -: command not found -bash: hdparm: command not found
14:15
:)
14:15
<alkisg>
What do you do when you want to install programs?
14:15
(04:11:53 μμ) gbaman: great to have all the debian packages ==> ok, install the "hdparm" package :)
14:16
<gbaman>
sudo apt-get install hdparm
14:16
just ran it, installing now
14:17
<alkisg>
sudo blkid
14:17
This will tell you the device of / (root)
14:17
Then, sudo hdparm -tT /dev/<device of root>
14:18
<gbaman>
running
14:18
Timing cached reads: 320 MB in 2.00 seconds = 159.96 MB/sec Timing buffered disk reads: 52 MB in 3.00 seconds = 17.31 MB/sec
14:19
That is one of my smaller slower cards that I use for testing
14:19
but I doubt the others would be much faster
14:23
so... What is wrong with vagrantcs idea?
14:24
<alkisg>
17 MB/sec is about the same as ltsp fat clients with your network setup
14:25
<gbaman>
Main problem is, what he told me didnt exactly work
14:25
<alkisg>
With ltsp fat client also offering a single point to maintain the image, and less cost, and no need to worry about writes wearing out the sd cards
14:25
<gbaman>
:)
14:25
<alkisg>
The problem with vagrantc's idea is that you get the ...worse of both worlds
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14:26
<alkisg>
You have to maintain local installations AND customize ltsp...
14:26
Anyways, decide what you want to do first and then you can ask for help on specific issues
14:29
<ltspuser_41>
haw many ımage can we create on one server
14:29
and how t swıtch between them for test
14:30
because ı delete ı386.img and ı create another ımage wıth kıosk name
14:30
<alkisg>
No limit. One quick way to switch between them is to rename the /opt/ltsp/xxx and /var/lib/tftpboot/ltsp/xxx dirs. Otherwise use a pxelinux menu.
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14:30
<ltspuser_41>
thanks alkısg
14:30
<laurense>
alkisg: do you have a link to documentation abouw a pxelinux menu
14:30
<alkisg>
laurense: the syslinux wiki has full documentation
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14:33
<gbaman>
back, sorry about that
14:34
ok alkisg, say I was to go with a network version, the one you have been recommending
14:34
how do I go about doing that
14:34
<alkisg>
Ask vagrantc about configuring ltsp for raspbian
14:34
I think he plans on writing a wiki page about it anyway
14:35
There's nothing special there then, it's just a usual ltsp fat clients setup
14:44
<gbaman>
ok, I will try and grab him later
14:45
he told me to add the servers ssh keys onto the raspberry pi, I am completly new to this, where do I find them on the server?
14:45
I am going to try his method and see if it works anyway, good to have multiple options
14:47
<alkisg>
You'll need much customizations to make ltsp boot from local media, it's not just the ssh keys
14:48
<gbaman>
he told me to grab the ltsp-client package, then add some bootargs then add the servers ssh keys, then change a few things in the lts.conf file
14:48
<alkisg>
Patch the initramfs scripts, update-initramfs, modify kernel command line, modify init-ltsp.d scripts etc
14:48
Right, you'll need someone to take a couple of hours and guide you through all this if you're inexperienced with linux/ltsp
14:53
<gbaman>
why is nothing ever easy :)
14:53
I will try and grab vagrantc later today then
14:54
and get his opinion
14:55
We need some sort of roaming profile system for this classroom of raspberry pis that once set up is easy to maintain and add users, change passwords or remove users. So far I have found no easy way to do this or a guide anywhere on how to do it
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15:01
<Hyperbyte>
gbaman, that's what LTSP is. Problem is that LTSP is made for net booting, and raspberry pi doesn't support that. :)
15:01
<gbaman>
can the netbooting part not be turned off?
15:02
skip the netbooting
15:02
then have the pi authenticate like normal to the server
15:03
I am sure we arnt the only school that would significantly benefit from something like that
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15:04
<alkisg>
That's libpam_sshauth
15:04
You don't need the other ltsp parts then
15:05
<gbaman>
how much setup is required for libpam_sshauth?
15:05
and what else is required
15:05
<Hyperbyte>
alkisg, didn't you also say you could do this with grub and ipxe?
15:05
<alkisg>
ipxe is x86 specific
15:05
<Hyperbyte>
alkisg, and just make the client netboot capable?
15:05
<alkisg>
Won't run on arm
15:05
<Hyperbyte>
Oh
15:05
:|
15:05
<alkisg>
You need a local kernel + initramfs
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17:52
<alkisg>
Hyperbyte: did you put "implement story removals" in your TODO list? Any planned dates for that? :D :D
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18:53
<sbalneav>
vagrantc, alkisg, got a sec?
18:54
<alkisg>
sbalneav: sure, shoot!
18:54
<sbalneav>
So, for ssh key authentication, here's my thoughts
18:54
you wouldn't do, as far as I can see, ssh key authentication, except for "autologin" accounts that are installed in the chroot.
18:55
Since the key will have to be installed in the chroot somewhere anyway
18:55
so, here, in my mind, is a rough flowchart:
18:55
1) User enters userid
18:55
2) Check if user is available locally
18:55
3) Check if they have a $USER_HOME/.id_dsa,id_rsa,or what have you
18:56
4) If they do: -> public key authentication
18:56
5) if not -> remote password authentication
18:56
Seem reasonable?
18:56
<alkisg>
Is that in shell or in .c?
18:57
With a "pre-ssh" phase in shell, we could do fancy things
18:57
<sbalneav>
That would be in C in the pam_sshauth. Creating the keys and stuff for localdevs comes later in shell.
18:57
<alkisg>
The DM gets username/pass and passes it to pam
18:57
Then pam generates a pressh event
18:58
At that point, shell scripts ask ltspd for something like "an lts.conf for the login event"
18:58
Which would contain the appropriate server if load balancing is used, or the appropriate server for that user, etc etc,
18:58
And might even contain ssh keys
18:59
The pressh scripts can then prepare whatever libpam_sshauth needs for the real login phase
19:00
<sbalneav>
That would require changes to the dm. Pam doesn't work that way, unfortunately. Once you pass control to pam via the module, you're in, and can't drop out until the stack's finished.
19:00
<alkisg>
We don't want to get out of the stack
19:00
Just execute shell scripts as part of the stack
19:01
They should be finished in less than half a sec, and return to libpam_sshauth so that it continues with the real ssh login try, to create the socket etc
19:04
<vagrantc>
sbalneav: right now, i just use a shared ssh key for all accounts in /root/.ssh/id_rsa or whatever
19:04
since ldm runs as root
19:04
i wouldn't want to have to configure it with each user.
19:05
<alkisg>
You could put that under [Default], no problem there
19:05
In the pressh phase we can also implement LDM_ALLOW_USER
19:05
I.e. tell libpam that we don't want to allow specified users, so that it doesn't try ssh'ing at all
19:05
And I'm sure we'll find a lot of other things that are easier to implement in pressh
19:07
<sbalneav>
vagrantc: OK, so if I included a "ssh_key_file=" pam command line argument, would that work?
19:09* vagrantc ponders.
19:09
<sbalneav>
Should, that duplicates what you're doing now.
19:10
<vagrantc>
what i'm doing now isn't very flexible :)
19:11
but i don't really see a good way to improve upon it
19:11
<sbalneav>
Well, how about having both your way and my way? :)
19:12
If we supply the pam command line option, use that
19:12
if not, check the local user
19:12
if not -> password.
19:12
That gives you both options.
19:14
<vagrantc>
if there's already a local account with a local key, what are we getting by trying to connect with pam_sshauth?
19:15
also, it seems like just using whatever conventions (open)ssh is using, rather than hard-coding various key files ...
19:16
in a typical ssh connection, i think it usually looks for keys in ~/.ssh/id_* in a particular order, tries each one of those, and if that fails, falls back to password auth
19:17
that way we can support or not support whatever key types ssh supports without code changes to pam_sshauth
19:18
and if the keys fail, fall back to password auth ...
19:18
also, could see it being useful to support passworded keys
19:28
<alkisg>
It's easy to autogenerate unique+static ssh keys for each client based on e.g. dmidecode output, plus some salt.
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19:29
<alkisg>
Also, a pressh script can store keys and other configuration wherever libpam_sshauth would look for them, the filenames/paths don't matter much there...
19:29
<dead_inside>
hey guys, on FAT clients, has anyone tried running the screensaver as a remoteapp to get around the fact running locally can not authenticate
19:31
<vagrantc>
sbalneav: sorry i don't have a lot of time at the moment to give it proper thinkover
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20:57
<Enslaver>
Question, how big is debian/ubuntu's chroot for thin clients?
20:58
<ltspuser_00>
Hello i have a qestion about ltsp. Can somebody tell me how to instal a program on a client?
21:00
Is somebody there ?
21:00
<vagrantc>
Enslaver: i think a default thin client chroot is 0.8-1GB, approximately
21:00
ltspuser_00: typically you install programs on the server, if using thin clients
21:01
ltspuser_00: but do be patient, people may not respond immediately
21:01
<ltspuser_00>
If i install a program on the server it dus not run on the client.
21:02
<vagrantc>
ltspuser_00: are you using fat clients?
21:02
<ltspuser_00>
Yes
21:02
<vagrantc>
ltspuser_00: ltsp-chroot -m apt-get install YOURPROGRAM (at least with debian/ubuntu variants)
21:03
ltspuser_00: what distro and verison?
21:03
it may also require running ltsp-update-image
21:03
<ltspuser_00>
Is there not a simpel way to do this in the normal interface of ubuntu?
21:04
<vagrantc>
if you're running ltsp-pnp, you can just install it on the server and rebuild the image with ltsp-update-image --cleanup / (or is it ltsp-update-image / --cleanup)
21:05
<ltspuser_00>
12.04
21:05
<vagrantc>
ltspuser_00: do you have a directory in /opt/ltsp/amd64 or /opt/ltsp/i386 ?
21:06
<ltspuser_00>
i386
21:06
<vagrantc>
ltspuser_00: so yeah, you'll need to use the commandline to install packages
21:07
and then run ltsp-update-image
21:07
i.e. sudo ltsp-chroot -m apt-get install firefox ; sudo ltsp-update-image
21:08
<ltspuser_00>
I did that and then it make's a new image for the amd 64.
21:08
<vagrantc>
replace firefox with whatever you want to install in the image.
21:08
ltspuser_00: maybe try: ltsp-update-image -a i386
21:08
<ltspuser_00>
I dont want to replace that
21:08
<vagrantc>
ltspuser_00: or ltsp-update-image /opt/ltsp/i386
21:09
<ltspuser_00>
That's sems to work.
21:09
It is not a simple thing to work with.
21:10
<vagrantc>
the ltsp-pnp approach might work better for you, then.
21:11
you build an image of your server exported to the clients
21:12
<ltspuser_00>
I want to use it for a simple smal internet cafe that we use on ower foundation. but i am wondering if it is the raid thing for this .
21:12
<vagrantc>
it is very flexible, but isn't 100% point-and-click.
21:14
<ltspuser_00>
I am not so good with the terminal yet. I think thats the problem.
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21:19
<ltspuser_00>
I will try some more. and if i run in to problems I will put them on this channel. Thanks for now.
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21:33
<vagrantc>
Enslaver: i can get real numbers for you in a bit...
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21:45
<alkisg>
Enslaver: ubuntu 12.04 thin => 631 MB uncompressed, 284 compressed (gzip), wheezy thin => 749 uncompressed, 261 compressed (xz)
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21:49
<vagrantc>
or someone else will.
22:04
782 /opt/ltsp/amd64
22:04
771 /opt/ltsp/i386
22:04
both uncompressed for wheezy..
22:04
which is a little different from alkisg's numbers
22:05* alkisg used the cleanup on those chroots, exporting them via nbd
22:05
<vagrantc>
ah, mine was: du -smc
22:06
probably save some space turning them into NBD images.
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