IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.freenode.net (webchat)


Channel log from 9 February 2015   (all times are UTC)

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08:56work_alkisg is now known as alkisg
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09:08
<vmlintu>
alkisg: there's now a Puavo demo installation set up if you want to try it out
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09:29
<alkisg>
vmlintu: sure, what do I do to try it out?
09:30
What will I be loooking into, a web interface?
09:32
<vmlintu>
it's the web interface and if you install puavo-client or other packages, you can also get your clients registered and have them managed by puavo
09:32
<alkisg>
Cool, I'm in, let me have a look...
09:34
<vmlintu>
The idea is that Puavo does not have to be installed at school, but it can be in a remote datacenter or at a cloud provider. The bootservers at school then act as slaves to the Puavo installation and get their configuration from there
09:34
And one Puavo installation can handle hundreds of organisations that can have any number of schools in them
09:35
So there could be just one Puavo installation for all of Greece and cities could have their own organisations there.
09:35
What you can see now is a single organisation
09:36
<alkisg>
vmlintu: for example, how does the "Default Wireless Access Point setup" work?
09:39
<vmlintu>
alkisg: you can configure netboot devices to act as wireless access points if they have wifi adapter that supports master mode - e.g. a usb stick. In Puavo you can configure SSIDs that for the networks. And if you have an existing wireless network, you can configure the SSID and password for it so that the laptops get the information automically from Puavo
09:40
So netboot devices act as access points and the laptops using the same image then connect through those access points
09:40
<alkisg>
Got it, I was wondering how that would work with e.g. wireless routers as the access points, but if they're laptops, sure, makes sense
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09:42
<vmlintu>
The wireless settings are in two different places - at organisation level and at school level. At organisation level every single school gets the settings automatically and at school level it affects only a single school. Normally every school has "school admins" that can only access settings for their own schools.
09:42
The same idea applies to pretty much everything in Puavo - settings are in three levels: organisation, school, device/user
09:43
<alkisg>
What servers does a school have, and how does it manage them?
09:43
Are they rsync'ed from a master server of yours?
09:45
<vmlintu>
If school has only laptops, they can update from master Puavo servers without a local server. If there's a local server, they'll use that, though. A bootserver is needed for netboot devices to boot and if there are thin clients, there needs to be an LTSP server that is also a netboot device.
09:46
A bootserver acts as an LDAP slave so it has a local copy of the LDAP database that it uses for everything. Syncing from the master happens in realtime.
09:46
<alkisg>
The bootserver is netbooted?
09:46
<vmlintu>
no
09:46
<alkisg>
The LTSP server has a local disk?
09:46
<vmlintu>
They are locally installed
09:47
^ bootservers are locally installed, I mean
09:47
<alkisg>
Gotcha
09:47
LTSP servers have local disks for rsync'ing, right?
09:47
<vmlintu>
LTSP servers have a local disk to store Puavo registration information and logs, but they don't rsync anything
09:48
<alkisg>
A thin client boots. Where does it get i386.img from? The master server?
09:48
<vmlintu>
LTSP servers use pxe to boot from the bootserver and use the same image as thin/fat clients and laptops
09:48
<alkisg>
Ah, from the boot server
09:48
<vmlintu>
Bootserver has dhcp and tftp servers and others
09:48
<alkisg>
So basically the LTSP server is just an application server
09:48
<vmlintu>
yes
09:48
<alkisg>
While the boot server has the nbd image
09:48
<vmlintu>
yes
09:49
And a single bootserver can have multiple nbd images. In Puavo you can configure different devices to use different images
09:49
<alkisg>
How is the bootserver installation managed? Can each school have different programs installed there?
09:49
<vmlintu>
Bootserver has only a minimal set of daemon processes and no enduser applications
09:50
Every school can have it's own image if needed
09:50
<alkisg>
How do they manage it ?
09:51
<vmlintu>
In our case we manage the images, but they are created pretty much the same way as the normal image creation in ltsp-build-client
09:51
<alkisg>
chroots?
09:52
<vmlintu>
using chroots, yes
09:52
we are now working on tools to have images built using the Puavo GUI, though
09:52
<alkisg>
Here we have 3 different UbuntuLTSP installation DVDs for schools, one for primary, secondary, and high schools
09:53
So each school gets 4 GB of software preinstalled, but then they can add more if they want it, normally, through software center
09:53
The boot server is also the application server and the teacher pc
09:53
I don't think we would be able to manage that scheme with a few master images...
09:55
<vmlintu>
The big idea behind all of this is that we were able to update from quantal to trusty without reformatting anything and also partial updates were possible as we served both quantal and trusty images everywhere and tested it first only on a few client devices
09:56
And now we can also rollback ltsp servers to an old version if something get broken in an update
09:57
<alkisg>
vmlintu: the file system is stored at the boot server? Are you using NFS?
09:57
(home)
09:58
<vmlintu>
But there's nothing preventing you from using ltsp-pnp to create the images locally and serving them from the same machine. (well, probably a few bugs, but nothing intentional)
09:58
It's NFSv4 with kerberos
10:01
So bootserver acts as an LDAP slave and it has KDC running on it too to authenticate everything locally. If laptops are outside school network, they authenticate to master Puavo's kerberos
10:02
<alkisg>
And the credentials are cached in case there's no internet access at all?
10:02
<vmlintu>
LDAP slave has everything needed for authentication without internet
10:02
<alkisg>
I mean at homes
10:02
If a teacher gets his laptop at home and has no internet
10:03
<vmlintu>
Yes, we use sssd on laptops. When you login, it caches the login information locally
10:03
So logins work also without internet
10:04
<alkisg>
It's a nice infrastructure, but I don't know how much it could help others that don't get support from a central organization.
10:04
I'm very interested about upstreaming some of the parts though, like local caches for laptops, authentication...
10:05
How do you prepare a laptop? Do you resize its windows installation to make a partition for ltsp automatically?
10:05
Do you store /home there locally? What happens to the /home/user1 data if another user2 gets that laptop?
10:10
<vmlintu>
How many different applications do the schools use there?
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10:11
<alkisg>
More or less, each school has 1 I.T. teacher, and he decides what programs he needs,
10:11
<vmlintu>
To install a laptop, it's booted from bootserver using pxe and either it wipes out the harddrive or you can partition it manually
10:11
I think for us it's 99% wiping out
10:11
<alkisg>
I "offer" some of the most common ones preinstalled, but then each one of them adds e.g. an application to do comics, another for sound, another for graphics...
10:12
Ah no that (laptop wiping) wouldn't work for us, some other non-I.T. teachers still use Windows
10:13
We could shrink the existing partitions and add a new one, but it would be very hard to do automatically
10:13
<vmlintu>
The /home on laptops is local and it stays local. We don't do automatic cleanups there
10:13
<alkisg>
Do you have checks like, "you are trying to login as alkisg, but /home/alkisg locally on your laptop has a UID that doesn't match, do you want to reset /home/alkisg to the correct UID"?
10:14
<vmlintu>
On laptops you can also go to "developer mode" where you get a writable overlayfs on top of the image so you can install anything you want
10:14
No, we don't have checks like that as our uids are unique in LDAP and the laptops use those uids
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10:16
<alkisg>
(e.g. suppose a school removes the alkisg teacher, but 3 years later I go to work at another school and they add my user again with a different id now)
10:16
(@#(*$ net connection today... :))
10:17
<vmlintu>
so far that hasn't been a problem yet, but we are actually planning to change the home directories to be of form /home/<uid> for that reason
10:17
<alkisg>
That would only work if you guaranteed that uid=gid everywhere
10:17
<vmlintu>
uid=gid?
10:18
<alkisg>
Suppose alkisg={uid=1234, gid=1235}
10:18
And 3 years later, alkisg={uid=1234, gid=4321}
10:18
...it would still be an issue there..
10:18
I think someone needs to develop some login-time sanity checks package
10:19
<vmlintu>
if you remove alkisg and recreate it, you get a new uid
10:20
Puavo does not have single setting for uid/gids or ip addresses or anything like that
10:20
<alkisg>
UIDs get recycled after a while
10:20
<vmlintu>
4^32
10:20
2^32
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10:21
<vmlintu>
I'm happy to fix it after we have 4 billion users.. ;)
10:21
<alkisg>
Anyways it's not just about UIDs, there are many things that can go wrong at login time, I was just wondering if you had thoughts about searching for or developing such a package
10:23
<vmlintu>
I don't see much generic stuff there at the moment
10:24
right now the failure checks in ltsp load balancer are not working correctly, but that's quite different from laptop issues
10:25
For the application part we've been installing quite a bit of stuff in the image and then we just hide the excess in the menu
10:26
<alkisg>
How about boot time checks? For example, "your /home partition needs fsck but manual, not automatic"
10:27
<vmlintu>
You mean when the bootserver boots?
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10:29
<work_alkisg>
vmlintu: no, when a laptop boots and it does have a /home partition, but fsck reports that it needs to be manually fsck'ed
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10:30
<vmlintu>
alkisg: you mean who does it?
10:31
<alkisg>
Well, first, if you indeed have such checks in the software, and second, yup, who would do it...
10:31
What I'm trying to say is, "persistent and distributed storage comes with a few issues, have you bumped into those and do you have solutions..."
10:31
<vmlintu>
The image we use does not have any special checks for that and that hasn't been a problem
10:32
<alkisg>
I can think of 100 problems that result from persistent storage in netbooted environment, that's why I was afraid to start such a solution here
10:32
<vmlintu>
laptops don't netboot after initial install
10:33
<alkisg>
Sorry, not netbooted, I meant "live boot"
10:33
<vmlintu>
We did have filesystem problems when the laptops were installed locally and managed using Puppet, but after starting to use the image, there have been no problems
10:34
automatica apt-get dist-upgrade is a disaster waiting to happen on laptops
10:46
Do you use any web based services that need user authentication?
10:47
<alkisg>
(sorry phone, back now...)
10:48
We do have web based services, ldap etc for schools, teachers and students, but we don't use them at all while teaching
10:49
So the people that support those have single sign on etc for all the web services, but we don't bind our ltsp installation to their ldap server, we don't use their services
10:49
https://sso.sch.gr/login is the master login page for all *.sch.gr services
10:51
<vmlintu>
is it for the whole country?
10:51
<alkisg>
Yes
10:53
<vmlintu>
do you separate user accounts for ltsp?
10:53
<alkisg>
Yes, basically for the computer labs in schools, we're not using the *.sch.gr services at all
10:53
They're not reliable
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10:55
<vmlintu>
do you use google apps for education or something similar?
10:55
<alkisg>
Those *.sch.gr services offer moodle, eclass etc, but they're not reliable... I'm looking into integrading some of those in our default installation
10:56
Google apps would be very reliable, but I'm not sure that I want to rely on a normally paid service...
10:57
<vmlintu>
backing up and updating those local installations doesn't sound like fun
10:57
<alkisg>
apt-get update only gave us little trouble so far
10:57
E.g. update-manager wants to remove ltsp, I'm trying to SRU the fix into 12.04 now...
10:58
In general we don't have very sensitive data in a computer lab, teachers don't mind too much if they reinstall from scratch every 2 or 4 years
10:58
We automated the installation to the point where it's install ubuntu + copy/paste 1 command
10:59
<vmlintu>
do you loose the home directories with the reinstall?
10:59
<alkisg>
So we finish a school in about 1 hour
10:59
If we want, we keep them, but usually they don't want to, because the students have left the school
11:00
<vmlintu>
that's quite different from here were teachers keep all their files in their home dir
11:02
<alkisg>
vmlintu: the ubuntu installer offers to keep the home dir
11:02
And we have a backup passwd + restore users menu in sch-scripts
11:02
So keeping home and users isn't much of a problem...
11:03
I.e. reinstalling a whole school also takes about 1h
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11:03
<vmlintu>
how many client devices there usually is?
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11:05
<alkisg>
Usually each school has one or two computer labs, and each one of them has 12 clients and one ltsp server
11:05
<vmlintu>
here all computer labs are being torn down
11:06
computers are placed in all classrooms and laptop carts
11:06
<alkisg>
We started having laptop carts here too, I don't know how to work with those yet (teachers don't know either)
11:07
I thought EU suggested no wireless at schools...
11:07
So some schools here do have wifi, others don't...
11:07
Personally I think computer labs are much better than laptop carts
11:09
<vmlintu>
some just unplug the wifi dongle from the computer when they don't need wifi
11:11
then there are schools that have >500 computers in a single building
11:11
<alkisg>
How do you manage those, with multiple application servers and a single boot server?
11:11
<vmlintu>
yes
11:12
<alkisg>
Cool, if NFS4 can support 500 simultaneous users from a single PC it's nice
11:13
vmlintu: suppose a teacher named teacher1 logs in into pc1 and creates a file1. Then he logs into laptop1. Does file1 get copied to /home/teacher1/file1 in that laptop1?
11:13
<vmlintu>
an application server has only a single connection
11:13
no, the bootserver is accessible as a network directory through cifs that uses kerberos authentication
11:14
<alkisg>
Wait isn't /home in the boot server with NFS?
11:14
<vmlintu>
not on laptops
11:14
<alkisg>
The users can't login from any pc?
11:15
<vmlintu>
they can
11:15
<alkisg>
Suppose a user logs in from a thin client, creates a file, then logs in in a laptop. Does he have access to that file?
11:15
<vmlintu>
yes
11:15
<alkisg>
So you rsync /home/user upon login, from the NFS server to the local /home partition in the laptop?
11:20
vmlintu: thanks for the chat!
11:20* alkisg waves for now...
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11:20
<vmlintu>
no.. the user has a local homedir on the laptop and nothing is synced automatically. There's a network homedir link that gives you access to bootserver's homedir
11:21
You can run unison or similar to sync everything
11:25
but I've been dreaming of a new filesystem that would solve our problems there
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12:07
<vadim27>
Hi! I have problem with LTSP(ltsp-standalone-server) on Ubuntu 14.04(upgraded from 12.04). After client login nothing happened, only 'loading' cursor. ~/.xsession-errors: http://pastebin.com/ymzmVFEa
12:07
How to fix it?
12:08
<muppis>
Upgraded (or rebuilded) chroot as well?
12:10
<vadim27>
it was completely rebuilded
12:13
<muppis>
I'm sure (haven't seen this before), but could this cause: xhost: must be on local machine to add or remove hosts.
12:13
<vadim27>
I also get errors like libGL error: failed to open drm device: Permission denied/libGL error: failed to load driver: i965 but they disappeared after installing some X-apps to chroot
12:15
<muppis>
That can be ignored, if you're not running any content which requires DRM and you're using Intel video chipset.
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21:46
<stevecook>
Hi, Steve Cook calling. I've got a 64 bit ubuntu 14 machine with open ssh servber and ltsp installed. But will not start ltsp server. have followed several instructionals on the internet. none work. Has anyone implemented LTSp on ubuntu 14?
21:47
if aso, can they point to an instructional on the internet specific to ubuntu 14
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