IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.freenode.net (webchat)


Channel log from 29 July 2014   (all times are UTC)

00:00
<vagrantc>
so, it really depends on exactly what you're doing with the vpn, how the vpn is normally configured, etc.
00:01
<Guest51018>
I'll have to give fat-clients a try. Would I be able to "manage" them as easily as thin clients? say modify/update images, /etc/skel?
00:01
btw, thank you for your help!!
00:03
<vagrantc>
the homedirs are exported from the server with fatclients, so sure.
00:04
updating images is a little harder, as every time you install an application, you needto update the images.
00:04
with thin clients, you simply install the imag on the server, no need to update the image.
00:05
er, install the application on the server, no need to update the image with thin clients
00:06
<bennabiy>
vagrantc: LDM_HASHTMP will by my environ variable which will be passed to the script
00:06
sound good?
00:08
<Guest51018>
hm.. not sure what that is... but I think i'm on the right path now. I'll play around with fat-clients
00:08
and yes, sounds good! seems like I'd still be able to update fat-client machines from the server, without having to go to each fat-client machine
00:13
Thank you for your super fast help and response.
00:13
<vagrantc>
Guest51018: good luck!
00:13
bennabiy: my gut reaction to the variable name isn't good, but heh.
00:14
gotta run anyways
00:14* vagrantc waves
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06:10
<alkisg>
vagrantc, bennabiy: hi guys
06:11* alkisg is mostly on vacations these days, but I'll be online for a couple of days now
06:12
<alkisg>
I vote for (1) ldm writing the hash to /etc/passwd itself, or if that's not easy, (2) using stdin or an environment variable to pass the hash from ldm to the shell scripts
06:12
Using a tmp file doesn't sound more secure to me, so I don't see why we should involve disk or network IO...
06:14
<vagrantc>
alkisg: the one advantage i see with the temp file is you can actually remove the file, whereas with the hash in ram, it's floating around in the environment
06:14
<alkisg>
Nevertheless, if a tmp file is to be used, why not created it in /var?
06:14
<vagrantc>
but i guess it's stored in /etc/shadow anywways, so hm.
06:14
<alkisg>
vagrantc: removing the password from the file is the same as removing it from ram
06:15
I.e. one would have to zero-fill it to be sure it's not re-allocated to other programs, but noone does that...
06:15
<vagrantc>
alkisg: well, the password doesn't have subproccesses where the environment variable might linger
06:15
<alkisg>
We can remove it from the environment
06:15
Just unset the variable...
06:15
Then all subprocesses won't inherit it
06:15
<vagrantc>
you can remove it from the environment for subsequent processes, but not processes called before
06:16
<alkisg>
Sure, so we just make sure it's the first script to be called at that phase
06:16
<vagrantc>
but it needs to be called after the localapps stuff, no?
06:17
<alkisg>
How about this?
06:17
We let localapps do its stuff, and if we find the user entry in shadow, we replace/add the hash from ldm.c
06:18
Is there a need to pass the hash to shell scripts?
06:18
<vagrantc>
i think it was only a timing issue
06:19
alkisg: the one problem i see with that is if you have identical usernames with multiple ldm servers for users that should have different passwords...
06:20
the localapps stuff happens after ldm.c is run...
06:20
<alkisg>
vagrantc: do localapps support that, currently?
06:20
I think that if you try to do a second login, the first user will be erased
06:21
<vagrantc>
in the sense that it cleans the environment between logins
06:21
so we'd have to also clean /etc/shadow ...
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06:22
<alkisg>
AFAIK for each login, the initial shadow is used
06:22
So if 2 users try to login, the first user is deleted from passwd, shadow etc
06:23
OK I see the timing issue, it's because X01-localapps and X95-run-x-session is in the same step, "X"...
06:24
But, X01-localapps is the script that's supposed to read the hash from stdin or the environment
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06:24
<alkisg>
So it can remove it before any subprocesses start
06:28
vagrantc: for example, now the has is visible from the command line: sed -e "$sedshad" -i /etc/shadow
06:28
*hash
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06:28
<alkisg>
So a local non-root user running `ps` in a loop can see it...
06:29
<vagrantc>
yeah, not so great.
06:29
<alkisg>
And the sedshad variable lingers on for all X* scripts
06:29
It's not exposed in the environment though, so no subprocesses see it
06:29
<vagrantc>
well, i knew you'd have good commentary on the matter :)
06:33
<alkisg>
OK here's a quick way because as you said, trying to be perfect many times gets no work done at all:
06:33
LDM writes the hash in a file in /var, so that it can have a standard name
06:33
(to the same dir where we cache shadow etc)
06:34
It writes it in "sed" form though, a complete line to be passed to sed with its "-e script, --expression=script" option
06:34
Sorry, I meant: -f script-file, --file=script-file
06:35
So, X01-localapps will only need to check if the file is there, and if it is, to call sed -f that-file, and then remove it
06:35
That way the hash is never available to shell scripts, only sed reads it from that file
06:36
bennabiy: ^^^
06:37
/var/cache/ltsp/$USER.passwd or something...
06:39
<vagrantc>
sounds like a reasonable compromise
06:40
and also backwards compatible
06:40
i.e. if the file isn't there, nothing changes
06:50
although for the feature to work, both ldm and ltsp-client* would need to be sufficiently new versions
06:51
<alkisg>
Hmm better if it has a really standard name like /var/cache/ltsp/user.passwd, so that if we have a newer ldm, and an older ltsp that doesn't use/remove that file, we won't have multiple $USER.passwd files staying around indefinately...
06:52
<vagrantc>
passwdhash?
06:53
user.shadow.sedscript ?
06:54
<alkisg>
The last one without the "user" part somehow... e.g. shadow-sedscript or sedscript.shadow?
06:54
Or shadow.sed...
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07:53
<alkisg>
Yup, .sed is a common extension for sed scripts, e.g. ldm-trunk/po/quot.sed
07:53
bennabiy: so, /var/cache/ltsp/shadow.sed
07:53
bbl
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11:49
<bennabiy>
alkisg, vagrantc: I read the conversation. Seems good to me, to write to a standard filename, which would be user-unrelated. that is only a few lines of code changed.
11:50
and it should not be hard to put together the sed script. Alkisg: would that script need to have #!/bin/sed at the top?
11:50
or just the $s: line
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15:42
<bennabiy>
welcome alkisg
15:42
<alkisg>
Hi bennabiy :)
15:43
Did you see the irc logs?
15:44
<bennabiy>
yes, just about to work on it
15:45
been helping others troubleshoot why their computer theme is not right
15:45
after trying to get nvidia-prime working
15:49
alkisg: when using a sed -f file, does it need to be headed with #!/bin/sed ?
15:49
no, right?
15:50
<alkisg>
bennabiy: no, but do output a comment that mentions what that file is
15:50
# Generated by LTSP, to be used by X01-localapps etc etc
15:50
<bennabiy>
sed files respect comments?
15:50
<alkisg>
AFAIK yes, do google it to be sure
15:52
<bennabiy>
ok, let me just get a little code hammered, and we can do a trial run. Did you notice that launchpad was failing to build now?
15:52
quilt error
15:52
<alkisg>
I saw it but didn't have time to look into it
15:53
Ask in #launchpad
16:03
<bennabiy>
they are working on it
16:15
so do we still want to have this opt-outable?
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16:26
<alkisg>
bennabiy: I don't mind either way, ask vagrantc...
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16:28* vagrantc waves
16:28* bennabiy waves
16:36
<bennabiy>
ok, so hash is now stored in sed file, /var/cache/ltsp/shadow.sed
16:36
updated rc.d file
16:36
just pushed
16:39
time for lunch. See you in a little bit
16:39
I still need to incorporate the opt out, but trying to determine the best way to do that
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16:40
<bennabiy>
Since enable by default, should I just check if LDM_NOHASH is set?
16:40
or something like that?
16:40
think about it and let me know
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16:40
<bennabiy>
alkisg put that in your court
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16:43
<matt___>
hello
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17:04
<bennabiy>
back
17:05
matt___: hello
17:06
vagrantc: did you see the update?
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17:19
<vagrantc>
bennabiy: use boolean_is_true or ! boolean_is_true
17:19
<bennabiy>
I do not see a c definition for that
17:19
<vagrantc>
bennabiy: just checking if it's set gives unexpected behavior if you set to false.
17:20
<bennabiy>
Is that in c? or script?
17:20
<vagrantc>
we definitely had it in both at one point... hrm.
17:21* vagrantc wonders if someone switched it all to gboolean
17:21
<bennabiy>
perhaps
17:21
I notice a lot of gboolean use
17:21
but I remember seeing boolean_is_true in scripts
17:22
<vagrantc>
ldm_getenv_bool
17:22
<bennabiy>
ah, there we go
17:22
where is that defined?
17:23
<vagrantc>
ldminfo.c
17:23
bennabiy: haven't looked over the updates, but will in a bit
17:25
<bennabiy>
vagrantc: So should I use the variable LDM_NOHASH?
17:26
to indicate that you need to opt out
17:26
?
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17:49
<vagrantc>
bennabiy: no hash what? :P
17:49
bennabiy: i'd recommend LDM_PASSWORD_HASH true/false, defaults to true
17:49
<bennabiy>
Ok
17:49
<vagrantc>
bennabiy: negation variables are mentally difficult
17:50
<bennabiy>
tell me about it
17:50
<vagrantc>
bennabiy: i.e. NO_FOO=true ... NO_FOO=false ... it gets confusing fast.
17:50
<bennabiy>
especially when dealing with boolean compare
17:50
yes
17:50
seems launchpad patched the issue now, ldm built fine for me
17:50
<vagrantc>
yay
17:51
<bennabiy>
so, let me just get the boolean patched in, and it should be "good"
17:51
Quick question, in stgraber's pics of bts, was that you in the debian hat, with long hair?
17:55
vagrantc: I am thinking I will want to add to the struct definition of SSHInfo to make an entry for ldm_password_hash
17:55
I will see if I can squeeze it in within hashpass
17:56
and make sure that the password gets freed, no matter what
17:56
<vagrantc>
bennabiy: i do have a debian hat, and i do have hair.
17:57
bennabiy: yeah, the password freeing was my last question
17:57
<bennabiy>
http://photos.stgraber.org/Conf/2013-ltsp-by-the-sea/ the first pic
17:58
<vagrantc>
bennabiy: your log entries need to be updated for the new sed script instead of /tmp/foo
17:58
<bennabiy>
ah, I knew I was forgetting something!
17:58
thank you
17:58
<vagrantc>
can't see the picture, it's all obscured by javascript
17:59
<bennabiy>
haha
17:59
http://photos.stgraber.org/Conf/2013-ltsp-by-the-sea/i-RzvQjMS/0/X3/DSC07404-X3.jpg
17:59
<vagrantc>
bennabiy: and remove the commented out g_free tuff
17:59
<bennabiy>
will do.
18:02
<vagrantc>
bennabiy: i think you found me, yes. looks like my braids were in disorder
18:02
<bennabiy>
How long has it been since you last cut your hair?
18:03
<vagrantc>
bennabiy: haven't cut it this millenia
18:03
<bennabiy>
heh
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18:25
<matt___>
Hello All, i am very new to LTSP and thin clients in general, been working with them off and on a few weeks to get some thin/fat clients working off an existing ubuntu 12.04 server and have had varied success and was wondering if i could pick some of your brains for some help
18:25
<vagrantc>
!ask
18:25
<ltsp>
ask: Don't ask to ask a question, simply ask it, and if someone knows the answer, they'll respond. Please hang around for at least a full hour after asking a question, as not everybody constantly monitors the channel.
18:26
<vagrantc>
matt___: ^^ :)
18:29
<matt___>
just trying to see if i can repurpose some old dells sitting around collecting dust
18:31
<bennabiy>
Can they boot to network ?
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18:36
<bennabiy>
vagrantc: It seems I am going to have to do some shuffling of booleans anyway, because if it is true by default, but not set, then it would not return true if I did ldm_getenv_bool
18:37
<matt___>
well i guess thye question i have on my head right now, is where does the image pull its user prefrences? for example i was trying to get local apps working and seemed to mess something up and the client wouldn't boot anymore, so i complete removed it and created a new one but it had background that i set
18:37
so i guess i just know enough to be dangerous
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18:43
<bennabiy>
vagrantc: Does that make sense?
18:46
matt___: can you give a little more details about your environment?
18:57
<matt___>
ubuntu 12.04 server, no gui, install the ltsp-server, using dnsmasq to leave the dhcp in our router, and trying to test thin/fat clients for old dell 2400's
18:58
pretty much used the walkthrough here UbuntuLTSP/ProxyDHCP
18:59
and that question was more out of curiosity in how the thin client image works
18:59
so that i can customize it
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19:08
<bennabiy>
vagrantc: I could do a setenv with overwrite disabled, and then test for the env variable
19:08
that might be the easiest
19:13
<vagrantc>
bennabiy: you can test if it's set, and assume true if not
19:14
surely there's example code in there...
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19:26
<matt___>
ok here is a question, why does a vm boot any size image but the old dell pc gives an error the the exported image is too big?
19:29
<bennabiy>
vagrantc: Here goes... pushed new code
19:29
matt___: how much ram does it have?
19:30
<matt___>
varies 512m-1.5g
19:30
<bennabiy>
matt___: also, is the image you are exporting the same architecture as the machine booting it?
19:30
<matt___>
i think the one i've tested the most with only has 512
19:30
i386
19:30
<bennabiy>
matt___: how are you generating the image?
19:31
and on what type of machine?
19:32
what architecture is the server?
19:32
<matt___>
64b
19:33
<bennabiy>
so when you do your ltsp-build-client, are you doing --arch i386 ?
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19:36
<matt___>
yes i used the --arch i386
19:37
and the client will actually boot and i can log into the ldm session and its functional
19:38
<bennabiy>
so which pc is giving the error?
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19:39
<matt___>
the server is a xeon quad core 8gb ram w/ a supermicro board so i'm sure the server should run several thin clients right?
19:40
<bennabiy>
yes
19:40
at least 4 or so
19:40
but possibly not 4 running youtube and such
19:40
but for general use, yes
19:40
more than 4
19:41
<Andymeows>
Hello, are there any special instructions for compiling a new kernel inside a chroot/image?
19:41
<matt___>
yeah its for a small office, i'm just testing to see if turning the old equipment into thin clients will improve performance or if they just need to upgrade hardware
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19:47
<bennabiy>
Andymeows: any particular reason you want to recompile a kernel?
19:48
<Andymeows>
bennabiy: my graphics chipset is apparently only supported in 3.16 kernel. (as per the folks in #intel-gfx)
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19:50
<bennabiy>
so just pull in the 3.16 kernel
19:50
no need to compile it
19:50
which distro?
19:50
<Andymeows>
debian. but the backports version is 3.12
20:06
<bennabiy>
ah, look for vagrantc, he should be able to give you a little more help
20:07
I need to go now
20:07
vagrantc: do not merge yet, something is not working right
20:07
vagrantc: the X script is not actually running now
20:08
<Andymeows>
thank you
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20:16
<bennabiy>
vagrantc: for some reason the X01-localapps-ldm is not getting installed in the client when I manually install the ldm and ldm-server packages
20:16
even if it is in the source.
20:16
Also, I will need to test why it is not getting the environment variable properly
20:17
Is there somewhere I need to tell it to look for and get that variable from?
20:17
I have to go now, but I will be back tomorrow.
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20:26
<championofcyrodi>
anyone around?
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20:56
<championofcyrodi>
so i hit an error building the chroot inside docker... of course mounting the proc folder
20:56
mount: permission denied
20:57
the HOST is CentOS, so I'm not so sure mounting the /proc folder to the container will help
20:58
reading -> http://tuhrig.de/how-to-know-you-are-inside-a-docker-container/
20:58
which discusses /proc a bit
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21:15
<championofcyrodi>
what does ltsp do with /proc when attempting to build the chroot?
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21:59
<vagrantc>
bennabiy: it looks like your latest commit unconditionally sets the variable to true, regardless of it it was already set?
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23:28
<bennabiy>
vagrantc: It is not supposed to overwrite the variable if it exists(that is what that last 0 means)
23:29
But it should set the variable if it is not set.
23:30
vagrantc: https://developer.gnome.org/glib/stable/glib-Miscellaneous-Utility-Functions.html#g-setenv
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23:34
<bennabiy>
vagrantc: I can try it a adifferent way though
23:45
<vagrantc>
bennabiy: ah, perfect, then.
23:45
<bennabiy>
but... something is not working. so I wonder if it is doing what it is supposed to
23:46
<vagrantc>
heh
23:46
bennabiy: technically, we typically set defaults like that in ltsp_config.d/foo
23:46
<bennabiy>
Although my install also did not put the rc.d script in place, so I wonder if other things are funny about it
23:46
<vagrantc>
bennabiy: i think it would actually be better if it checked if the variable wasn't set, rather than setting the variable.
23:48
<bennabiy>
That is the issue with just doing a ldm_getenv_bool because it returns false for null or false, which is NOT what we want
23:48
that is partly why I wanted the negative environment to have to set having the opt out as true
23:49
I was trying to make ldm_getenv_bool to have an environmental set one way or another, but something backfired
23:50
<vagrantc>
bennabiy: just do ldm_getenv_bool || "LDM_PASSWORD_HASH" == ""
23:50
not exactly sure how to check for that, but that should work.
23:51
<bennabiy>
I think I need to have an intermediary variable, and have it set to true unless ldm_getenv_bool = false
23:51
<vagrantc>
if you can do it in shell, surely it can be done in C :)
23:51
<bennabiy>
yes, just takes longer :)
23:51
<vagrantc>
that could work, too.
23:51
you already have an intermediary variable...
23:52
the do_hash ...
23:52
<bennabiy>
not functioning as one yet though
23:53
<vagrantc>
could default to true, check if the variable is set, if it is, set do_hash to the value ldm_getenv_bool sets
23:54
<bennabiy>
yes, something like that. I cannot work on it tonight much more, but tomorrow morning I should be able to
23:54
<vagrantc>
sure, sure.
23:55
i could also implement it, since i'm the one insisting on it
23:56
<bennabiy>
If you want.
23:56
I wont say no :)
23:57
I just did something because no one else was doing anything yet :)
23:58
Really, if you wanted it to not get set, you could just delete the file through shell, without running sed
23:58
<vagrantc>
yeah, let's stop my feature requests from blocking this...
23:58
<bennabiy>
we should take out the variable check then first
23:58
<vagrantc>
you go ahead and implement a working setup, and i'll implement the variable checks
23:58
<bennabiy>
I vote we handle the opt out at the script level
23:58
in X01-localapps-ldm
23:59
<vagrantc>
but the main reason to opt out would be to not have the hash floating around
23:59
so opt out shouldn't generate the hash at all
23:59
<bennabiy>
I know!
23:59
<vagrantc>
so handling it in X01-localapps-ldm seems like a mistake
23:59
<bennabiy>
pass a variable to ssh_hashpass which is either bool true or false