IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.freenode.net (webchat)


Channel log from 6 August 2010   (all times are UTC)

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04:43
<EDinNY>
thanks
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05:22
<sweetpi>
Does the ltsp-developer mailing list always bounce messages from gmail accounts?
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05:35
<sakhi___1>
afternoon
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05:36
<sakhi___1>
I have LTPS server running on qemu and I need to have the clients running java applications faster over the network.
05:37
any advise on how I can tweak LTPS in order to computers without a hard drive to connect like the machines with hard disks?
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05:42
<muppis>
sakhi___1, actual java applications or webapplets?
05:43
<sakhi___1>
muppis: sorry I mean webapplets
05:44
<muppis>
sakhi___1, browser already installed as localapps?
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05:47
<sakhi___1>
muppis: yes it is.
05:48
my only problem is that users on the fat clients can access the webserver faster.
05:49
<muppis>
Do you have java-vm also installed as local?
05:49
<sakhi___1>
yes
05:50
<alkisg>
"users on the fat clients can access the webserver faster." ==> Fat clients? Or standalone clients? (fat clients in LTSP means clients *without* a disk)
05:51
<sakhi___1>
alkisg: what does thin client in LTSP mean?
05:51
<alkisg>
thin client = client without disk that runs its apps on the server
05:51
fat client = client without disk that runs its apps on its own CPU
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05:51
<alkisg>
Both of them use a network disk from the server
05:52
standalone client (or something like that) = client that has its own hard disk
05:52
<muppis>
alkisg, for clarification, does it make client to be fat if only running FF and related plugins?
05:53
<alkisg>
No, that's "thin client with localapps"
05:53
<muppis>
Ok.
05:53
<sakhi___1>
ok didn't know that.
05:54
<alkisg>
So what do you have? thin? thin with localapps?
05:55
<sakhi___1>
I have thin running apps from a server.
05:55
<alkisg>
OK, so plain thin clients. And you're comparing them to standalone clients (with their own hard disk), right?
05:55
What are your thin client specs? (RAM/CPU)?
05:56
<sakhi___1>
eish they are weak. 256Ram and 700Mhz CPU.
05:56
<alkisg>
Do you have LDM_DIRECTX=True?
05:57
(in lts.conf)
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05:57* sakhi___1 checks
05:58* sakhi___1 does not have that.
05:58
<alkisg>
OK, read about it in lts.conf manual. It offers speed but it has some security implications
05:58
!lts.conf
05:58
<ltspbot`>
alkisg: "lts.conf" :: http://manpages.ubuntu.com/lts.conf
05:58
<sakhi___1>
alkisg: what does it do?
06:01
ok thanks I will look into the configs.
06:02
<muppis>
alkisg, do you know something about configuring CUPS automatically? I have 18 standalones and like to have network printer configured like out of box.
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06:06
<sakhi___1>
kbye chat later and once again thanks alot.
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06:09
<alkisg>
muppis: sure, just enable printer sharing in gnome
06:09
<zamba>
what's more important for a thin client - ram or cpu?
06:09
<alkisg>
It depends on what do you want to run in it :)
06:10
If you don't want any localapps at all, and you have at least 256 RAM, then... network + graphics card
06:10
<zamba>
so 256 RAM is like a bare minimum?
06:10
<alkisg>
No, 64 is the bare minimum
06:11
<zamba>
256 is recommended?
06:11
<alkisg>
But if you run firefox, then it will use some ram for x pixmaps, so it will need a network swap file etc
06:11
So yeah 256 is recommented
06:11
For localapps of course you'd need more
06:13
<zamba>
i'm not running any localapps at the moment, but thinking maybe i should
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06:16
<zamba>
but what is the limiting factor when i'm trying to stream youtube videos?
06:16
<muppis>
alkisg, so other will catch it automatic?
06:16
<zamba>
and when i open several tabs in firefox with quite large images and the whole system grinds to a halt?
06:17
<alkisg>
muppis: yes - but you need to enable printer sharing both on the server and the clients
06:17
(server => share, clients => see shared printers)
06:17
zamba: do you have ldm_directx=true?
06:17
<zamba>
alkisg: yes
06:18
<alkisg>
Then most probably the network
06:18
<zamba>
not network card or ram?
06:18
because i'm not experiencing the same intense grind when i'm running a tc on a better computer
06:18
<alkisg>
network = network card, switch, cables... all of it
06:19
<zamba>
it's much better on a newer computer
06:19
<alkisg>
Do you have a full gigabit network?
06:19
<zamba>
128 RAM vs 512 RAM
06:19
<muppis>
alkisg, thank you.
06:19
<alkisg>
muppis: np - if you can't find the option (in printer settings) ping me
06:19
<zamba>
alkisg: well.. i'm actually trying to figure that out.. because i'm running ltsp as a xen guest and i'm trying to figure out if the guest is running at gigabit speeds when the host is
06:20
<alkisg>
zamba: install netperf or iperf locally so that you measure the exact bandwidth
06:20
<zamba>
alkisg: the TC is of course only running at 100 Mbit/s
06:20
alkisg: since it's pretty old hardware
06:21
<alkisg>
Well, you'd need to check flow control then too
06:21
https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/FlowControl
06:21
<zamba>
but it's a very quiet network
06:21
<alkisg>
Btw, a full screen 1024x768 video at 25 fps would need 629 MBit per second
06:22
<zamba>
hm
06:22
so it's most certainly a network issue, then
06:22
<alkisg>
So, with 100mbps on the client, you'd have to compromise.
06:23
<zamba>
in what way?
06:23
<alkisg>
Either use xv (=scaling on the client / flash doesn't support that but e.g. totem does),
06:23
or, don't use full screen, or use less fps etc
06:23
<muppis>
alkisg, actually I'm more looking to set it from preseed file.
06:24
<zamba>
alkisg: so if you want to run youtube in fullscreen, you have to run firefox as a localapp?
06:24
<alkisg>
Pretty much, yes. And also have a client good enough for that (both CPU + RAM).
06:24
<zamba>
a P4 at 1.8 with 512 MB ram
06:24
that oughta work?
06:24
<alkisg>
Yup
06:25
<zamba>
what about a P3 with 256 RAM?
06:25
<alkisg>
P3 ... at 700?
06:25
<zamba>
thereabout
06:25
<alkisg>
Probably not
06:25
<zamba>
but it's not possible to only run flash locally?
06:25
<alkisg>
It might show 5-6 fps *non fullscreen*, but not more
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06:26
<alkisg>
Theoretically it is, if someone developed an xembed extension for firefox
06:26
But noone's done that
06:26
<zamba>
how do i set up firefox as a localapp?
06:26
<alkisg>
That would be the coolest, because it wouldn't need much ram
06:26
distro/version?
06:26
<zamba>
ubuntu
06:26
<alkisg>
And version?
06:27
<zamba>
karmic
06:27
<alkisg>
http://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSPKarmicLocalAppsFirefox
06:27
<zamba>
maybe i oughta upgrade
06:27
to lucid
06:28
<alkisg>
Sure, at some point.. LTS and all....
06:28
<zamba>
yeah
06:30
<alkisg>
muppis: that's what I have for automatic printer sharing: http://ltsp.pastebin.com/feyGYh5p
06:31
So it's one way to automate it. I don't know about preseeding it, probably you can preseed cups...
06:33
<muppis>
alkisg, looks nice. Do you run that on every boot?
06:34
<alkisg>
muppis: yes, because the fat clients can't save their state
06:34
For standalone clients, once should suffice
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06:35
<muppis>
alkisg, ah.
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06:48
<muppis>
alkisg, I think I use your script to enable it in postinstallation, if you don't mind?
06:48
<alkisg>
No problem at all
06:48
<muppis>
Thank you.
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06:52
<zamba>
how do i set up localapps only for one of my TCs?
06:52
just to test?
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06:53
<zamba>
a stanca under /var/lib/tftpboot/ltsp/i386/lts.conf for the hostname?
06:53
or the ip?
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06:55
<alkisg>
zamba: localapps are enabled by default for all of your PCs
06:55
Do you want to disable them for all PCs except one?
06:56
<zamba>
alkisg: yup
06:56
alkisg: i have different sets of TCs.. some are low-end whereas others are faster
06:56
<alkisg>
(there are 2 concepts here - 1 is localapps, which is enabled, and 2 is localapps gnome menus, which is disabled)
06:57
So maybe just enable the menus for 1 pc, like this:
06:57
[client-ip-or-mac]
06:57
<zamba>
you mean like 'ltsp-localapp firefox'?
06:57
<alkisg>
LOCAL_APPS_MENU=True
06:58
I mean, that currently, without changing anything in lts.conf, `ltsp-localapps xterm` works for all of your PCs
06:58
<zamba>
yeah
06:58
cool
06:58
going to use that to test
06:58
<alkisg>
OK
06:58
<zamba>
just going to rebuild the image first
06:58
<alkisg>
With that, you'll see firefox normally on the gnome menu
07:02
<zamba>
overriding the server one, right?
07:02
<alkisg>
Yes
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07:15
<zamba>
hm.. now it won't boot
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07:15
<zamba>
after upgrading the image
07:15
Aug 6 14:13:06 thinny nbd_server[13285]: connect from 192.168.1.221, assigned file is /opt/ltsp/images/i386.img
07:15
Aug 6 14:13:06 thinny nbd_server[13285]: Size of exported file/device is 245710848
07:15
Aug 6 14:13:06 thinny nbd_server[13285]: Disconnect request received.
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07:24
<Blinny>
alkisg: No love - older kernel still leaves processes around.
07:25
I have 21 on the server I'm on; 3 people are logged in.
07:25
(and they logged in this morning.. was empty overnight)
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07:30
<Damianos>
what does my /etc/network/interfaces file need to look like if I want to get internet from a wireless card? I have eth0 setup ok and I can boot a thin client from it but my wireless card is not passing internet through despite the fact that it is showing as connected to my router
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07:32
<muppis>
Damianos, this can be close: http://nixcraft.com/ubuntu-debian/13278-etc-network-interfaces-wireless-wifi-example.html#post19778
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07:38
<alkisg>
Damianos: just use network manager to connect to the internet with dhcp, it shouldn't require anything in /etc/network/interfaces
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07:39
<Damianos>
muppis: altering the interfaces file did it, thank you so much!
07:39
<alkisg>
Blinny: probably that "keepalive" isn't in effect for you. No idea why, though.
07:39
zamba: That disconnect request is normal, any other messages?
07:41
<zamba>
alkisg: not on the server side, no
07:41
alkisg: but i'm unable to log on
07:42
<alkisg>
zamba: "unable to log on" ==> does that mean that you see ldm?
07:42
<zamba>
yup
07:42
<alkisg>
Ah, ok. Then try SCREEN_02=shell and SCREEN_07=ldm in lts.conf, to troubleshoot this
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07:42
<alkisg>
Switch to vt2 with alt+ctrl+f2, and run `ssh user@server`
07:42
<zamba>
alkisg: already tried that
07:42
<alkisg>
And?
07:42
<zamba>
alkisg: was able to log in no problem
07:43
<alkisg>
And, after that, if you try to login from ldm without rebooting, you still can't?
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07:43
<zamba>
still can't
07:43
<alkisg>
Do you see a login attempt in the server /var/log/auth.log ?
07:44
<zamba>
and of course.. there it just magically worked :)
07:44
haha
07:44
fun :p
07:45
did exactly the same as earlier (guest login)
07:45
<alkisg>
Computers are scared of debugging, if you "formally" start debugging a problem it can't be reproduced easily :D
07:46
<zamba>
even worse performance when running firefox as a localapp
07:47
even non-fs youtube is laggy then
07:47
graphic card issue?
07:48
<alkisg>
Does it do the same with video playback too?
07:48
Which card is it?
07:57
<zamba>
nVidia Corporation NV6 [Vanta/Vanta LT] (rev 15)
08:00
<alkisg>
Did you say karmic? Yeah do upgrade to lucid, so that the new nouveau driver is used instead.
08:00
The nv driver sucks a lot, it doesn't even support XV acceleration
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08:46
<Blinny>
alkisg: Thanks for the email clarification
08:47
<alkisg>
np - I thought grant would find that `exec` trick helpful too.
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11:28
<Kyle__>
Hello.
11:29
Where in the ltsp setup does one set the client hostnames?
11:35
<alkisg>
Usually in dhcpd.conf
11:35
<Kyle__>
alkisg: That's what I thought. Humm. Wonder why it didn't work.
11:36
<alkisg>
Any "hacks" in your setup? E.g. "ipappend 3" in pxelinux.cfg, or a different dhcp server...
11:36
<Kyle__>
all my clients are coming up with ltsp<last octet>. so 192.168.20.34 for example shows up as ltsp34. But both forward and reverse DNS are setup for that to be rvm14.etc.etc.etc
11:37
Nope.
11:37
No hacks.
11:37
<alkisg>
OK, get a *local* shell on a client (e.g. SCREEN_02=shell) and try: ipconfig -n eth0
11:37
See if it correctly gets a dns name from there.
11:38
<Kyle__>
ipconfig? Curious. It didn't find it.
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11:39
<alkisg>
You need to be root to try that command, a local xterm from a user account won't do
11:39
/opt/ltsp/i386/usr/lib/klibc/bin/ipconfig
11:39
*so in the client, just /usr/lib/klibc/bin/ipconfig
11:39
<Kyle__>
I am root. All that would do it, that's not in my path.
11:39* Kyle__ was busy with find / -iname, just found that.
11:40* alkisg uses locate on the server, it's faster :)
11:40
<Kyle__>
Heh, I never got into use locate :)
11:40
OK. It got the right address, broadcast netmask gateway domain dns servers, etc...but I don't see a hostname listed there.
11:41
<alkisg>
cat /tmp/net-eth0.conf
11:41
Not there either?
11:41
<Kyle__>
Nope, not there either. Maybe my dhcpd.conf is screwie, I'll go double check I didn't comment anything out.
11:42
<alkisg>
So you're probably missing a directive in dhcpd.conf... something that sounds like get-hostnames, I'm not using dhcpd so I don't remember it correctly
11:42
get-lease-hostnames
11:42
http://manpages.ubuntu.com/manpages/maverick/en/man5/dhcpd.conf.5.html
11:43
Kyle__: So, "get-lease-hostnames true"
11:43
<Kyle__>
Yea, it was commeneted out in the ltsp example file, so I didn't put it into mine.
11:44
Guess I wasn't paying enough attention.
11:45
And now I see the right hostname. Perfect.
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11:57
<abarbaccia>
if i'm on my ltsp server, what is the appropraite way to chroot and foward X so i can open gui-based applications to make changes?
12:02
<alkisg>
What applications? E.g. synaptic? That won't work very well, as it uses dbus, gconf etc
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12:05
<abarbaccia>
alkisg: its the mythbuntu-control-centre
12:06
which i believe may also be using dbus
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13:30
<[GuS]>
hi guys, i am having a problem or a doubt: i've fixed the problem about squares characters/fonts in ldm login (suggested by here, installing freefonts in gentoo). Now, when i try to loging it fails, like my user does not exist. So, i must create users in LTSP5 chroot environment? or it must read the OS users? Cause actually in LTSP4.* i use the OS users.
13:30
or maybe the problems is another
13:33
<alkisg>
The os users
13:33
Get a local shell (e.g. with SCREEN_02=shell, if that works on Gentoo), and try `ssh user@server`.
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13:35
<sweetpi>
alkisg: I sent something to ltsp-developers about the pxelinux menu editor, but it bounced with "suspicious header". any idea if its always going to do that with a gmail account?
13:36
<alkisg>
sweetpi: did you use HTML format? Or plain text?
13:36
gmail is not a problem, I'm using gmail myself
13:36
And, are you subscribed at that list?
13:36
<sweetpi>
likely html(default), yes I subscribed
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13:38
<alkisg>
Try again with plain text in utf8
13:38
<sweetpi>
It said the message was waiting mod approval. So I should send as text from now on?
13:38
<alkisg>
Yup
13:38
Html messages come after 1 month or so, when the mods can see them
13:38
(and usually noone answers them then as they're very old)
13:39
<sweetpi>
So nobody will yell if I send again as plain?
13:39
<alkisg>
Nah, I don't think so, they won't even see the html message for another month :)
13:39
<sweetpi>
ok
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13:48
<alkisg>
sweetpi: it was sent ok
13:49
<sweetpi>
alkisg: good, thanks
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13:51
<GGD>
hello sweetpi
13:52
<sweetpi>
hi
13:52
<GGD>
your email you sent...
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13:54
<sweetpi>
GGD: yes?
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13:54
<GGD>
i am very interested in that
13:55
<sweetpi>
ok, do you have any opinion on the layout/features?
13:56
<GGD>
you mean pxe right? ( i just saw your email and didn't see the bask story so to speak)
13:56
well i have see menus that are linear
13:56
one screen and i have see some that are nested
13:56
<sweetpi>
I was thinking a tree style view to edit/rearrange menus
13:58
<GGD>
yes
13:59
<sweetpi>
I guess my main concern was if the editor should ask for kernel/initrd/options or if it should just let you have "raw" entries
13:59
<GGD>
or both
13:59
some only use raw
13:59
some use the kernel/initrd/options
14:01
<[GuS]>
<alkisg> Get a local shell (e.g. with SCREEN_02=shell, if that works on Gentoo), and try `ssh user@server`. >> i
14:01
i'v tried that
14:01
and does not work
14:01
<alkisg>
[GuS]: so you have a problem with ssh
14:01
<[GuS]>
alkisg: i doub, it works with ltsp4
14:01
i will try something else
14:02
<alkisg>
Well, the problem may be on the client then. But, ssh does not work
14:02
<[GuS]>
alkisg: ahh, i mean i didnt tried with the local ip of my server.
14:02
<alkisg>
You must first make it work, and then look at ldm etc
14:02
<sweetpi>
GGD: another concern I had was portability, should it be a binary or maybe a script?
14:02
<[GuS]>
just does not work on ltsp environment
14:03
<alkisg>
[GuS]: well, you must see what part of `ssh user@server` is not working.
14:03
Is it the "server" part? etc etc
14:04
E.g. does ssh user@server-ip work?
14:04
<[GuS]>
ok, i will try that now.
14:04
<sweetpi>
GGD: I was thinking of doing this in python with pygtk. Not that I like python, but its easy to make guis and people would be able to modify it easier.
14:04
<alkisg>
sweetpi: sounds good, we already have pygtk in ltsp
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14:05
<GGD>
why have it portable?
14:08
<sweetpi>
GGD: Not sure why I typed portability, I meant easy to modify
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14:09
<GGD>
ahh that would be cool so that you can add or subtract items on the list?
14:10
<sweetpi>
GGD: well that would be there too, but I mean if someone wanted to contribute or they needed to add something specific to the way it outputs the menu configs
14:10
<GGD>
ahh yea
14:10
that would work
14:11
<sweetpi>
i.e. we need our menu configs to be output as xml
14:11
<alkisg>
sweetpi: one other approach is not to have an editor, but a script that "collects" all pxelinux.cfg menus under /var/lib/tftpboot, and combines them
14:11
So e.g. ltsp outputs an entry for i386, one for fat-i386 etc, another program outputs a "netboot live cd" entry - and yours combines them into one nice menu
14:12
(using a central /var/lib/tftpboot/pxelinux.cfg/default instead of /var/lib/tftpboot/ltsp/i386/pxelinux.cfg/default etc)
14:13
<sweetpi>
alkisg: that would be really easy, but wouldnt solve the editor problem. maybe I should write a separate script specific for that use?
14:14
<GGD>
that would work as well sweetpi
14:15
<alkisg>
sweetpi: maybe what I said could be an "import" function in your editor...
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14:16
<sweetpi>
the "collection" idea would work as long as it was only for ltsp. if it hit a directory with menu include files they would be included multiple times
14:16
<[GuS]>
alkisg: i have this option set in lts.conf SCREEN_02 = shell but instead of that i have a console login and not a shell :S
14:16
<GGD>
and when you "import" it imports the info and places it in the right location and then add that to the "lisT"
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14:20
<alkisg>
sweetpi: yes, but if you promoted this as a package, then other apps could use it too
14:21
There's no "pxelinux.cfg.d" directory where people can drop their configuration files
14:21
You could promote something like this...
14:23
(or it could be in some other place, e.g. /etc/yourappname.d)
14:24
<sweetpi>
sounds good
14:25
<alkisg>
I believe we could put code in ltsp-update-kernels that would place a pxe menu-item there, if that directory exists...
14:27
<GGD>
yea
14:28
does that make sense about what i said?
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14:32
<sweetpi>
yes
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14:48
<alkisg>
[GuS]: if SCREEN_02=shell doesn't work in gentoo, you can instead unlock the root account, and login on the client normally
14:51
<[GuS]>
alkisg: actually it works on ltsp, so if does not work now should be in ltsp 5
14:51
lstp4 works*
14:52
<alkisg>
I mean, in order to see what's wrong with ssh on your ltsp5 client
14:52
<[GuS]>
ah ok
14:52* [GuS] is sleepy :P
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16:30
<sweetpi>
alkisg: wouldnt it make more sense if when ltsp-update-image generated ltsp/<chroot>/pxelinux.cfg/default if it also went through the list of chroots and generated a ltsp/pxelinux.cfg/default?
16:31
<alkisg>
sweetpi: e.g. debian uses nfs, so ltsp-update-image is never called there
16:31
nbd is mostly used by ubuntu... while ltsp-update-kernels by all distros afaik
16:33
<sweetpi>
so what script writes pxelinux configs when using nfs? Im on debian but I use nbd and nfs and just do all the menus by hand
16:33
<alkisg>
But more important is that other apps could also put menus in an /etc/pxemenus.d/ directory. Or even the sysadmin could manually put some menus there (e.g. from the editor), like /etc/grub.d/040_custom in grub...
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16:34
<alkisg>
chroot /opt/ltsp/i386 update-initramfs ==> when the kernel is changed on the chroot, an ltsp hook is called, which creates the $CHROOT/boot/pxelinux.cfg/default file
16:34
Then, ltsp-update-kernels copies that file to /var/lib/tftpboot/...
16:35
So normally (=with nfs) in debian ltsp-update-image is never called. Of course you _can_ use nbd in debian, but it's not the default there.
16:36
<sweetpi>
ok thats why i saw only "cp -a boot/. foo", I didnt realize the menus were also there
16:38
<alkisg>
So what I'm saying is, however you implement your editor, please also provide a config.d directory where ltsp or other apps can "drop" stuff
16:40
<sweetpi>
yes I understand, actually I wrote a little script that does exactly that a few min ago, just cleaning it up a bit now
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21:16
<gnoob>
Hi guys:) I have installed edubunut + ltsp
21:16
When i try to log on from client nothing hapens
21:17
but it boots up from server.. what may I have forgotten?
21:18
I made a few testusers "Desktop users" but cant log in as admin either.. Any suggestions?
21:18
are ltsp users special users?
21:19
<vagrantc>
the only thing special about them is that they should be added to the fuse group if you want local devices to work
21:19
<gnoob>
I added users the normal way.. could that be a problem? :) First time trying this
21:19
ahh ok that might be..
21:20
<vagrantc>
but that wouldn't prevent them from loggin in
21:20
gnoob: did the server's ip address possibly change?
21:20
gnoob: if so, you may need to run: ltsp-update-sshkeys ; ltsp-update-image
21:20
<gnoob>
no.. users can log in locally, but not from clients
21:20
<vagrantc>
gnoob: can you log into the server through ssh?
21:22
<gnoob>
thanks vagrantc thats the problem, tested to log in from ssh without luck
21:23
how to fix? aptitude install openssh-server?
21:23
<vagrantc>
install openssh-server, yes.
21:23
<gnoob>
sshd is running
21:23
<vagrantc>
firewall?
21:23
<gnoob>
ltsp-update-sshkeys then maybe :)
21:24
yeah installed squid + some *guard thing :)
21:24
but didt try to log in before that
21:24
<vagrantc>
you'll need to be able to log in via ssh.
21:25
until you get that, you won't get anywhere.
21:25
<gnoob>
yeah
21:25
on port 22 is default?
21:25
<vagrantc>
yes
21:25
you can change that, but i would strongly advise against it
21:28
<gnoob>
how to check if port 22 is acting ok again with netstat? netstat -lp something?
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22:00
<gnoob>
hi
22:11
ssh: connect to host 10.0.0.1 port 22: Protocol not available
22:11
firewall then?
22:11
22 is in use by sshd netstat sais
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