IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.freenode.net (webchat)


Channel log from 20 August 2007   (all times are UTC)

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03:13
<EXP_away>
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03:25
<EXP_>
any suggestions?
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04:04
<jakobsg>
Good morning (CET)
04:04
I have setup LTSP 5 on a school in Denmark
04:05
Most is working fin, but there are some issues
04:05
<EXP_away>
like?
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04:06
<jakobsg>
1. USB: is working, but many devices don't get mounted - though they do if I plug them into a normal kubuntu installed machine
04:07
Are there som extra device drivers that need to be installed
04:07
?
04:08
disclaimer: I am not at the school now, so I can't just plug one of the devices in at the moment
04:08
But here are my notes:
04:10
When I plug one of the devices into the ltsp client running udevmonitor in the client console I can see that udev is sending the add actions, but nothing is added into /etc/fstab
04:12
My best guess is that no udev-rule matches the devices in question
04:14
Issue 2. Screen updates are much slower than on LTSP 4
04:15
OK, I can see this is becoming an essay I think I will post it on the list instead...
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04:20* tessier_ can't wait to get LTSP going in his house
04:20
<tessier_>
Alas, I need to wait for some more money to buy hardware.
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04:47
<EXP2>
i have problems with some ltsp clients, when user logs out the mouse cursor disappears...
04:47
same problem with 4.2 and 5
04:48
<ogra>
EXP2, do they log in to the same desktop (4.2 and 5) ?
04:55
sounds like something your desktop triggers ... i.e. switching to a non existing mouse theme or so ...
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05:08
<EXP2>
i have two servers in different places, but similar clients
05:09
when user logs out there is no mouse cursor in login screen or after login
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05:22
<jakobsg>
LTSP 5 - how do I see who is logged in on the clients - in LTSP 4 I could just use w
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05:42
<onats>
hello,
05:42
i'm new here, and i'm just curious about LTSP
05:42
anyone here?
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05:50
<ogra>
jakobsg, for your localdev prob: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebugLocalDev
05:50
are the devices properly partitioned ?
05:50
ltspfs currently only handles devices with partition table
05:51
<onats>
hello, do you guys think that the netvista 2200w is a good client for ltsp?
05:51
<jakobsg>
ogra: Yes they work if plugged into a normal ubuntu installed PC
05:52
<ogra>
jakobsg, are the devices oprtitioned ?
05:52
*partitioned
05:52
<onats>
when running ltsp, i dont need a hard drive present on that machine right?
05:52
imean for the clients
05:52
<ogra>
onats, right
05:52
<jakobsg>
Maybe not then, I didn't know you could use unpartitioned devices.
05:53
<onats>
ogra, what clients are you using?
05:53
machine types?
05:53
<ogra>
jakobsg, widows allows you to format e.g. /dev/sdb directly instead of having a partition table and using /dev/sdb1
05:53
onats, various ones from disklessworkstations.com
05:54
<onats>
ok, ill check the site..
05:54
<ogra>
jakobsg, ltspfs doesnt support drives using sdX directly atm
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05:54
<jakobsg>
That sucks, cause I think that is the case on most peoples usb drives
05:54
<ogra>
jakobsg, the normal ubunru desktop does
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05:55
<cliebow>
onats:no
05:55
<ogra>
jakobsg, feel free to submit a patch if you have time to work on it ...
05:55
<cliebow>
onats:netvista 2200 willnoty load a 2.6 kernel
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05:55
<jakobsg>
Yes, so thats why it's working on the normal ubuntu install and not the thin client
05:56
<ogra>
jakobsg, they are handled by two toally different backends, yes
05:56
<jakobsg>
ogra, Don't even make fun of it, I have already begun studying the udev rules
05:56
:-)
05:56
<onats>
cliebow, hmmm, therefore, its not a good choice for a ltsp setup? i just saw a couple of those in one of stores here, and they're selling it for $75 a piece..
05:56
<ogra>
i didnt make fun of it ;) every patch is appreciated
05:56
<cliebow>
right.,.
05:56
i had 60 of them given to me
05:57
<onats>
what can you do with these machines?
05:57
<cliebow>
i use them in ltsp-4.1
05:57
but the cyrix video is downwardly mobile
05:57
<onats>
not that familiar with ltsp yet... i take it ltsp-4.1 is for distros that use 2.4 kernel version?
05:57
<ogra>
cliebow, are you sutre there is no way to make them work with 2.6 at all ?
05:58
<onats>
is $75 a piece for netvista 2200w a fair price?
05:58
<cliebow>
ogra: i had pbranger at ibm lok em over..
05:58
<ogra>
could you bring me one to the next BTS so i could try to get them going with ltsp5 ?
05:58
<cliebow>
ogra: absolutely..they require an uncompreessedkernel..
06:00
<ogra>
hmm
06:01
if thats all, it should be easy to implement ...
06:01
guzip vmlinuz ?
06:01
*gunzip
06:01
<cliebow>
i goti get the "software is loading" message..but nothing ever happens
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06:02
<ogra>
well, if there are so many out there it should be worth to have a look
06:02
<cliebow>
id love it..
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06:02
<ogra>
would be sad to have another sun ray out there .... :)
06:03
<cliebow>
id ship one to you if you like..
06:03
<ogra>
well, we'll meet at UDS/BTS i guess ... that will suffuice
06:03
<cliebow>
i thinkit is kernel size that borks it..
06:03
the old kernel is 1.8,,the smallest i ever got the 2.6 was 3.5
06:04
havnt heard a wood about bts from jammcq..ill ping him..
06:05
<ogra>
well, he wanted to have a short hack event at least after UDS in boston
06:05
dunno if he actually calls that BTS
06:05
<cliebow>
onats, the 2800 work pretty well
06:05
im told
06:05
they at least pxe boot
06:06
<jakobsg>
ogra, Just to push me in the right direction - am i right about the what is missing:
06:06
1. udev rule update
06:06
2. kernel module
06:08
<ogra>
i guess its the limitation of our udev rule
06:14
<jakobsg>
OK, i will have a look at this, I have clients screeming for better usb-stick support
06:16
<ogra>
make them partition the keys as a quidk fix
06:16
*quick
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06:25
<cliebow>
onats, http://wiki.ltsp.org/twiki/bin/view/Ltsp/Clients
06:26
Wow:there is some newer work up there..
06:26
http://jeanchristophe.duber.free.fr/netvista_8363/
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07:27
<Solv>
if my ltsp server is also my dhcp server serving a mixture of windows fat terminals and dumb thin clients, how can i get around the gateway being different for both. ie in dhcpd.conf of the ltsp server the 'option routers' value needs to be the server, but for the other pcs on the network, the gateway address needs to be the router/modem for the internet
07:28
<Blinny>
Solv: Different 'shared-network' definitions?
07:29
That's how I do it, though I have them subnetted out also.
07:30
<Solv>
Blinny, I'd have to say I don't even know where to start trying to understand how to do that!
07:30
<Blinny>
shared-network is a definition allowable in dhcpd.conf
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07:31
<Blinny>
Try man dhcpd.conf
07:31
<Solv>
okay cool, cheers
07:32
<Blinny>
However, you'll at least need to know how subnets work to understand that.
07:33
<Solv>
i have read about how to calculate them...and I understand all that, but I've never seen them ina real world situtation, so it is all theory to me, and i don't really understand how to make them work
07:33
i had thought about making the ltsp server a router as well...using a simple firewall, and telling it to share the internet connection...
07:34
<Blinny>
Think of it as a way to separate chatter.
07:34
Solv: *Nod* Many folks do that also.
07:34
<Solv>
last time I tried to 'test' 2 subnets using subnet masks, I couldn't get them to use the same gateway so i gave up
07:36
<Blinny>
In that case, you may want to read a bit before changing network settings.
07:38
<Solv>
Blinny, yep thanx for the tips...i should be able to figure it out with the hekp of the man pages
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07:47
<Blinny>
Solv: Okay right on.
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08:13
<sbalneav>
Morning all
08:15
<monteslu>
morning
08:15
<ogra>
!s
08:15
<ltspbot>
ogra: "s" is Scotty!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
08:16
<sbalneav>
Morning ogra!
08:16
<ogra>
did you notice that the screensaver isnt working since gutsy started ?
08:16* ogra just found out about it
08:16
<sbalneav>
Yep, I've told you about it twice! :)
08:17
That and locking the screen.
08:17
<ogra>
ouch, i seem to have missed that
08:17
anyway, fixed ...
08:17
<sbalneav>
Oh! What was it?
08:17
<ogra>
fading made it crash
08:17
<sbalneav>
ah, ok
08:17
<ogra>
i pathced it to not fade at all on LTSP
08:17
<sbalneav>
cool.
08:18
<ogra>
the error notices of xorg rally suck
08:18
*really
08:18
took me half the day to find out what it was
08:18
'XF86VidModeClientNotLocal' isnt really indicating a fade relation
08:18
<sbalneav>
I broke localdevs in the last couple of days, don't pull from my tree quite yet. There'll be some patches to the ltspfs packages as well.
08:19
<ogra>
right i'm holding back with that
08:20
<sbalneav>
A long standing bug we've had is that we can only start ONE ldm at a time, so you can't have SCREEN07=ldm, SCREEN08=ldm, say, if you wanted two logins, because we only have one socket name, ldm_socket.
08:20
So I patched ldm to create ldm_socket_vt<x>
08:20
<ogra>
hmm. that might et tricky secirity wise
08:21
<sbalneav>
So now, I have to patch the udev rules and cdpinger to cycle through, and send messages to any ldm_socket_* files they find.
08:22
Also, as per the new bug, time to get the ltspfs security fixed :)
08:22
<monteslu>
is it working with the latest updates to 7.04 ?
08:23* ogra ponders to fix bug 18595 properly ...
08:23* monteslu still doesn't have local devices working
08:23
<ogra>
sbalneav, well, what do you plan ? copying xauth ?
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08:24
<ogra>
monteslu, it should work out of the box if you followed the quick install guide and allowed the user to use local devices in the user and groups tool
08:24
!ubuntu
08:24
<ltspbot>
ogra: "ubuntu" is a Debian based GNU/Linux distrubution that includes a Ubuntu specific version of LTSP. It can be found at http://www.ubuntulinux.org. to install ltsp on ubuntu: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/LTSPQuickInstall
08:25
<monteslu>
ogra, yup did that, on my multi-server setup. Even got the GIDs fixed from smbdlap server. Something still isn't quite right
08:25
<ogra>
well, ldm should simply handle it .. weird
08:26
sbalneav, you need to sync more often with my tree it seems ...
08:26
<monteslu>
I can see a security error message on a shell when I plug something in
08:27
but I'm not at the school right now... if either of you is around later I'll bug you then :)
08:27
<ogra>
sbalneav, bug 133443 will now produce a conflict in the trees
08:28
<sbalneav>
ogra: heh, yeah, I'll do a sync today, sorry!
08:28
<ogra>
(which is actually LP's fault though)
08:31
<sbalneav>
ogra: Did you notice the ltsp5 localdev checklist on ubuntu wiki I worked up?
08:31
<ogra>
yep
08:31
great stuff :)
08:31
<sbalneav>
Should save us some typing!
08:32
<ogra>
are you planning a hit on docs ?
08:32
http://doc.ubuntu.com/edubuntu/handbook/C/ltsp-client.html is wrong WRT XF86CONFIG_FILE (not mentioning the relative path)
08:33
<monteslu>
might want to put that the address can also be specifed by host name and IP
08:34
<sbalneav>
I'll be doing a TON of documentation.
08:34
<monteslu>
I don't see that anywhere else in the ubuntu docs
08:34
<sbalneav>
So yes, I'll fix that.
08:34
<monteslu>
and LDM_SERVER :)
08:35
think anyone would be interested in a multi-server setup wiki entry?
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08:36
<monteslu>
maybe I could write something up once I get everything working
08:37
<ogra>
monteslu, wait til sbalneav has documented tat new feature basically i'd say
08:37
you need to add the host keys to certain files etc
08:37
<monteslu>
there's a multi-server feature coming?
08:37
<sbalneav>
yep.
08:37
<ogra>
else ltsp-update-sshkeys wont pick them up
08:37
its already there
08:37
<monteslu>
ooooh
08:37
awesome
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08:38
<monteslu>
yeah, sbalneav explained the ltsp-udpdate-sshkeys thing to me the other day
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09:10
<klausade>
i'm out on a ltsp5-client as root via ssh, and I've done some experiments with xorg.conf, how do I make the client re-read xorg.conf? if i had kdm/gdm i would just restarte those, but it's ldm here.
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09:23
<ogra>
klausade, pkill ldm; pkill X
09:23
and then /etc/init.d/ltsp-client start
09:24
(will spill a warning about pulse running though)
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09:42
<ogra>
vagrantc, https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ltsp/+bug/132397
09:43
morning btw
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09:48
<vagrantc>
oh, sure. point me to a bug report and leave :P
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09:50
<ogra>
sbalneav, what do you think about forcefully disabling nm-applet in thin client sessions ?
09:50
does it amke any sense to have it
09:50
?
09:50
<sbalneav>
Which, for a thin client user? No, heavens to mergatroid.
09:50
yeah disable it.
09:51
<vagrantc>
ogra: regarding apt.conf settings ... you'll also have to copy /etc/apt/apt.conf.d ... and there may very well be settings that you don't want to copy over ...
09:51
<ogra>
well, it used to work fine until feisty ...
09:51
<sbalneav>
Gonna use the rc system to do that?
09:51
<vagrantc>
but most likely most settings can be copied over ... so making it the default, but possible to disable is probably fine.
09:51
<ogra>
seems it's gettig crak from dbus now ... so it spills a lot of warnings into ~/.xsession-errors
09:51
sbalneav, nope, patching the ap directly
09:52
<sbalneav>
Ah, can't do a gconf twiddle to make it go away?
09:52
<ogra>
sbalneav, using rc for such stuff (including screensaver and power-manager) is only a workaround i'm working onfixing that properly
09:52
changing user configs is evil ...
09:53
looks like i just fixed all screensaver issues :)
09:53
<sbalneav>
We're evil, evil people bent on world domination :)
09:53
<ogra>
so we can drop the rc stuff agai n
09:54
<vagrantc>
all the gconf twiddling only makes sense if gconf is installed
09:54
<ogra>
that as well
09:54
well, i focus in gnome atm ...
09:54
<vagrantc>
really? :P
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09:56
<sbalneav>
Well, kde has some kind of config system, doesn't it?
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09:56
<sbalneav>
And if you're running TWM, you don't have any of these sorts of problems :)
09:56* sbalneav wistfully looks at his old twm config file :)
09:56
<sbalneav>
When life was simple.
09:57
<ogra>
kde needs to solve it in the apps as well
09:57
but in ubuntu kde uses xscreensaver, thats patched since dapper
09:57
so kde/gnome are fine for me
09:57
<vagrantc>
sbalneav: yes, but last i looked, the LDM scripts just blindly start gconf twiddling weather gconf is installed or not ...
09:57
<ogra>
xubuntu uses xscreensaver as well ...
09:57
<sbalneav>
vagrantc: Ah, well, they're rough drafts :)
09:58
<ogra>
vagrantc, right, that were quickfixes for tribe releases
09:58
<sbalneav>
We'll fix those properly.
09:58
<vagrantc>
ok, as long as it's acknolwedged that this is not The Way Of The Future :)
09:58
<sbalneav>
Or, looks like now, eliminate them entirely.
09:58
<ogra>
wehere we can we'll eleminate
09:59
<sbalneav>
TWOTF?
09:59
<ogra>
with the ones we cant we'll need to fix them up with error catching etc
09:59
TWOTF?
09:59
<sbalneav>
ltspbot: learn TWOTF as Certainly not.
09:59
<ltspbot>
sbalneav: The operation succeeded.
10:00
<sbalneav>
!TWOTF
10:00
<ltspbot>
sbalneav: "TWOTF" is Certainly not.
10:00
<sbalneav>
Ladies and Gentlemen, #ltsp has a new meme. :)
10:00
<vagrantc>
ltspbot: learn TWOTF as a.k.a. The Way Of The Future
10:00
<ltspbot>
vagrantc: The operation succeeded.
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10:16
<sbalneav>
ogra: Hmm, just did a merge from your gutsy-ltsp, and I didn't get any conflicts.
10:16
<ogra>
oh, great for you then :P
10:16
i'll get them ...
10:16
;)
10:17
<sbalneav>
lol
10:17
What did I do that caused the conflict? Let me know so I can slap my own wrist and not do it anymore?
10:18
<ogra>
you made the same change as i did
10:18
<sbalneav>
Oh, lol
10:18
Which the kiosk one?
10:18
<ogra>
if thats not having the same whitespace etc we'll get a conflict on one of the sides
10:19
<sbalneav>
or the fixing of the fi instead of a done in -sshkeys
10:19
<ogra>
yeah, that one
10:19
<sbalneav>
ah, ok, sorry. My bad
10:19
<ogra>
well, we shouldnt have whitespace difference there
10:19
no, thats LP's fault for not closing the bug with the changelog entry
10:19
else the bug would already have been closed when you got up :)
10:20
<sbalneav>
I added in the key handling for sshkeys, and the --export option to make it easy for people to handle multi hosts
10:21
on "other" hosts, they run an "ltsp-update-sshkeys --export someuniquefoo"
10:21
dump all the "someuniquefoo"'s into the /etc/ltsp dir on the box serving the nbd image
10:21
and then do a regular "ltsp-update-sshkeys"
10:22
changes basically came through getting monteslu's servers logging in multi.
10:22
<monteslu>
muchas gracias
10:22
<sbalneav>
figured we needed a utility to smooth the process.
10:24
<ogra>
sbalneav, https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ltsp/+bug/133635
10:24
any opinion ?
10:24
<sbalneav>
Sigh.
10:24
yeah. we need to fix that.
10:24
I'll put some brain cells to it tonight.
10:25
<ogra>
we could generate a key locally on boot which we then use with ltspfsmounter
10:25
so ltspfsd will only accept connections if the key matches
10:25
<sbalneav>
Well, we should be able to do something with the Xauth key.
10:26
I remember it broke for the ssh encrypted sessions, so we really just need to fix that.
10:26
<ogra>
even with DISPLAY=localhost:11 ?
10:26
<sbalneav>
yeah, well, that was the problem :)
10:26
<ogra>
note that we still default to that (and i didnt plan to change it)))))))))))))))))
10:26
oops
10:26
<sbalneav>
right.
10:26
<ogra>
Xgl dies evil things to keyboards
10:27
*does
10:27
<sbalneav>
No, I agree that the default should be secure.
10:27meduxa has quit IRC
10:27
<sbalneav>
So, we just need to fix it.
10:28
<ogra>
well ...
10:28
do an md5sum from dmesg on boot ...
10:28
send that key with the ssh tunneled command ...
10:28
make ltspfsd only accept connections with this key prefixed
10:29
<sbalneav>
Where would we store the key? in a .file?
10:29
<ogra>
a root owned file of some kind ... readonly by root
10:29
<sbalneav>
Hmm, or maybe as an xprop on the root window.
10:30
That would work.
10:30
hmmmm
10:30
hmmmmmmmm
10:30
hmmmmmmmmmmmm
10:31
<ogra>
i still dont really see the big issue here, since you still need to know the fs structure on the client before even connecting to the port
10:31
actually ....
10:32
<sbalneav>
Yeah, I like you're idea.
10:32
<monteslu>
symlink to an odd fs structure path
10:32
<ogra>
if you make ltspfsd just refusee more than one connection to the same path/device that should already solve everything for pluggable devs
10:33
<sbalneav>
I'll play around tonight. I like your first idea.
10:33
<ogra>
if you plug something in the mount is established ... nobody else can mount ... on the server we can be safe by fuse behavior
10:33
just dont add the secret key as comandline option to ltspfsmounter :P
10:33
:)
10:33
<sbalneav>
heh.
10:33
brb
10:34
neeeed coooofffeeeeee
10:34
<ogra>
good point
10:34* ogra just got some late breakfast
10:35
<vagrantc>
well, the paths are very guessable, and someone else could be the first person to the mount request...
10:36
<ogra>
how ?
10:36
thats a matter of milliseconds you have to match
10:37
<vagrantc>
and computers are very fast.
10:38
<ogra>
well, lets see what scott makes out of it :)
10:38
i'm not really concerned ....
10:38
<vagrantc>
also, if the devices are plugged in before login ...
10:38
it's obvious that you're not really concerned :P
10:38
<ogra>
ldm is handling them on login now
10:38
(since delayed-mounter is gone)
10:39
<sbalneav>
Back from coffee and a health break.
10:40
Generating a key will work. We'll store it in an xprop, so no files are generated.
10:40
<ogra>
good
10:40
<sbalneav>
It's brilliant.
10:40
<ogra>
and finally a usecase for your xatoms work :)
10:40
<vagrantc>
you just looking for some other excuse to use xproperties :)
10:40
<sbalneav>
\o/
10:41
heheh
10:41
<vagrantc>
this actually seems like less of a bad idea, too.
10:41
<ogra>
yeah thats fine for this task
10:41
<vagrantc>
the other one seemed like a crazy hackish idea
10:41
but since this will only be looking at the xprop when you need to do something
10:41
<sbalneav>
Well, it ties it to the x session, which is what we want.
10:41
ok.
10:41* sbalneav is happy.
10:41
<vagrantc>
exactly
10:42
<sbalneav>
A man, a plan, a canal. Panama.
10:42
<ogra>
will it work in your brilliant case where people run multiple ldm'*s on one client ?
10:42
<sbalneav>
Yes.
10:42
It will.
10:42* ogra still fails to see the point for this :)
10:42
<ogra>
but if people want it ...
10:42
<sbalneav>
Beleive it or not, some people actually wanted multiple X logins.
10:43
I've never used it myself, personally, but hey. Whatever rocks their world.
10:43
<ogra>
how dare they ...
10:43daya has quit IRC
10:44
<ogra>
bah, seems with TCM i have some hard work ahead before release ... :(
10:45* sbalneav gives ogra and vagrant a big hug.
10:45
<ogra>
(would have been nice if pete had at least called for someone to adopt it instread of silently stopping work on it :((( )
10:45
<sbalneav>
Ahhh, I was going to ask about that.
10:45* ogra gives vagrantc and sbalneav a big hug as well
10:45Avatara has quit IRC
10:45
<ogra>
sbalneav, i started looking at it on the weekend
10:45
the userlist function needs rewrite
10:46
all whitespace in the code is so fucked up that my vim turns completely red if i open any of the files
10:46
(i have set red markers for broken indentation etc)
10:47
<sbalneav>
Yeah, getting x11vnc going be default seems to be a need as well. Any chance we could add it to the chroot install, and have an ltsp config var for "STARTX11VNC=true" available for lts.conf?
10:47
<ogra>
i was near the point already where i considered returning to the monolithic edgy version and adding the missing fesatures to it
10:47
<sbalneav>
ogra: red markers for broken indentation? Reeeeeely? Do share your vimrc!
10:47
<ogra>
i dont think we'll get x11vnc even remotely past security
10:48
<vagrantc>
one of these days i'm going to re-write the kiosk plugin :)
10:49
<ogra>
http://people.ubuntu.com/~ogra/vimrc
10:49
vagrantc, \o/
10:49
<sbalneav>
ogra: Have I ever told you how much I love you?
10:49
<ogra>
vagrantc, did you find a browser that does fullscreen properlxy ?
10:50
<sbalneav>
links2
10:50
:)
10:50
<vagrantc>
ogra: haven't been looking
10:51
ogra: you mean just to avoid needing a window manager ?
10:51
<ogra>
yeah
10:51
having a WM there feels just wrong
10:52
<vagrantc>
i wonder if you could implement rudimentary window manager functionality as a firefox extension
10:52
<ogra>
i wonder how firefox-granparadiso would work in that setup
10:52
(its the ultra light version)
10:52
you could surely do that as XUL stuff
10:53
is there something like firefox-granparadiso in debian btw ?
10:54* vagrantc has no idea what it is in the first place
10:54
<vagrantc>
doesn't appear to be on packages.ubuntu.com
10:55
<ogra>
http://packages.ubuntu.com/cgi-bin/search_packages.pl?keywords=firefox-granparadiso&searchon=names&subword=1&version=all&release=all
10:55
does for me
10:56* vagrantc should've used cut-and-paste
10:57
<vagrantc>
ogra: is it just a firefox 3.0 pre-release or something ?
10:58
<ogra>
no
10:58
its a lightweigth version as i understood
11:01
<vagrantc>
the text doesn't look much different from how firefox claims to be lighter than mozilla
11:02
<ogra>
well, thats how i understood asac
11:02
<vagrantc>
sure
11:02
<ogra>
(ff maintainer in ubuntu)
11:21
<ian_>
do you think the nbdswap stuff is neccessary on a disklessworkstations.com 170e w/256mb ram?
11:22
<ogra>
no
11:22
<ian_>
to disable that.. do you just not set the variable in lts.conf?
11:22
<ogra>
right
11:22
<ian_>
i didn't see a =False in the document
11:22
okay, thanks
11:22exodos has quit IRC
11:23
<ogra>
in later versions False works as well ... but there was a bug in edgy and before where that didnt have any effect
11:23
so just leave it out and you are on the safe side
11:23
<ian_>
had kind of a mild disaster when all the thinclients filled up /tmp with nbd stuff
11:29EXP2 has quit IRC
11:29
<ogra>
ian_, https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ltsp/+bug/113821 BTW
11:38
sbalneav, https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ltsp/+bug/18595 finally :)
11:38
(that bug took me two years for a three line patch, sigh)
11:38* ogra calls it a day now
11:39spectra has joined #ltsp
11:40
<monteslu>
ogra, before you split
11:40
who's the main developer for the thin client manager?
11:40olivierk_ has joined #ltsp
11:40
<joebaker>
monteslu I'd bet Ogra is the main developer from what I've seen.
11:42
<monteslu>
I'd like to help out with it if all possible. I've been a developer for 18 years (9 professionally) and I'm just looking for a place to help out this project :)
11:47
found it : https://launchpad.net/tcm/+topcontributors
11:53olivierk has quit IRC
12:00
<cliebow_>
monteslu:talk to cbx33 on #edubuntu
12:01sepski has joined #ltsp
12:15
<monteslu>
he's not around. But I'm usually lurking there, so I'll catch up with him
12:22newmember has joined #ltsp
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13:10
<guest>
ltsp 4.2 on gentoo does not create /tmp/mnt and /tmp/var directories on client. Consequently doesn't create xorg.conf file for Xserver. ltsp 4.1 runs fine on same server and client
13:11
can't find problem. Does anyone have any ideas?
13:12Guaraldo has quit IRC
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13:15
<guest>
Can't use debian or ubuntu, stuck with gentoo
13:16
<highvoltage>
guest: which kernel do you use for the ltsp environment?
13:20
<guest>
2.6.18.8 on server; client vmlinuz-2.6.17.8-ltsp-1 doesn't work; works with ltsp-4.1 and client vmlinuz-2.4.26-ltsp-2
13:22
using romomatic floppy boot
13:22dkennel has joined #ltsp
13:22
<Guaraldo>
guest: LTSP 4.1 ???
13:22
<guest>
both
13:23
both 4.1 and 4.2 using romomatic floppy
13:23
<Guaraldo>
why don't you use LTSP 4.2 with kernel 2.6.20?
13:23
How mutch RAM on client?
13:23
<guest>
I can try it
13:24
<Guaraldo>
must have at last 64 MB or kernel 2.6 wonk work...
13:25
<guest>
128M
13:27dkennel has quit IRC
13:29
<guest>
I'll sign off and give vmlinuz-2.6.20.9-ltsp-1 a try. I'm on the client now
13:31guest has quit IRC
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13:42
<guest>
tried 2.6.20 kernel. same problem X server failed fatal error "cant open logfile /tmp/mnt/xorg.log. my SWAG is that their must be a race between mounting ramdisk on /tmp and the script creating the /tmp/mnt and /tmp/var directories
13:49
Anyone have any thoughts about it? Installed gentoo ltsp-4.2 pkg and updated with ltspadmin. ltspadmin shows all up to date
13:53sepski has quit IRC
14:09
<guest>
Must signoff now.
14:09guest has quit IRC
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15:40
<klausade>
ogra: thanks. kill ldm kill X and restart ltsp-client did the trick regarding re-read of xorg.conf
15:41newmember has quit IRC
15:42
<ogra>
some day i'll find the time to implement a proper stop command for that :)
15:42
and restart :)
15:53Guaraldo has left #ltsp
15:59
<klausade>
ogra: does XF86CONFIG_FILE still work in ltsp5?
16:06Q-FUNK has joined #ltsp
16:10
<staffencasa>
Does anyone know why screensavers wouldn't work if you build your client with the --kiosk arg?
16:11ogra has quit IRC
16:11
<sbalneav>
staffencasa: Does the screen blank?
16:11ogra has joined #ltsp
16:11
<sbalneav>
Or just that you can't access "fancy" screem savers?
16:12
<staffencasa>
It blanks eventually power save I assume
16:13
<sbalneav>
Probably because xscreensaver and gnome-screensaver have been patched to ignore any of the "fancy" screensaving modes when running on an ltsp terminal.
16:14
<Q-FUNK>
howdy!
16:14
<sbalneav>
Hello!
16:16
<staffencasa>
sbalneav, it worked when I didn't use the --kiosk plugin, but as soon as I do, it stops
16:16
<vagrantc>
sbalneav: hey, what's up with signing up ltsp-drivers to sabayon ?
16:16
<sbalneav>
Did I?
16:16
I was trying to get sabayon added to the edubuntu bugsquad
16:17
<vagrantc>
somehow ltsp-drivers got assigned to it ... so if i unsubscribe ltsp-drivers that shouldn't break anything for others
16:17
<sbalneav>
staffencasa: Not really sure then. I've never tried the kiosk plugin.
16:17
Shouldn't, I wouldn't think.
16:17
<vagrantc>
yay :)
16:18* Q-FUNK is sort-of back from summer vacation
16:18
<staffencasa>
I'd be willing to not use it if I could get ltsp to launch firefox without a login needed and only firefox
16:18smith_ has joined #ltsp
16:19
<smith_>
Can someone help me troubleshoot a dns problem?
16:19
my thin clinets can get an IP address but can't resolve the TFTP server
16:19
<sbalneav>
You could use autologin in the patched ldm for feisty, or the new ldm in gutsy, and just create a session that does nothing other than to launch firefox.
16:20
<smith_>
we're a HS and want individaul logins for tracking
16:20
<sbalneav>
Are you providing the name for the tftp server in the dhcpd.conf file, rather than the ip?
16:22
smith_: Are you putting the name of the tftp server in the dhcpd.conf, rather than the ip address?
16:22
<smith_>
looking now
16:23
<vagrantc>
sbalneav: does LDM2 support autologin to one server, and login to a different machine if a username is specified ?
16:23
<smith_>
looks like just the IP
16:24
which is the same as the dhcp server
16:24
even if I plug a booted laptop into the system, I can't resolve names
16:24
<sbalneav>
vagrantc: Not sure what you mean?
16:25
smith_: So, maybe you've got a dns issue?
16:25
<smith_>
get a 192.168.good.address
16:25
<vagrantc>
sbalneav: well, at freegeek we basically have two servers .. .one for anonymous logins - anybody who doesn't have an account ... and then a separate server for users who have an account
16:25
<smith_>
but can't figuuuuuuuuu ot what else to look for
16:25Q-FUNK has quit IRC
16:25
<smith_>
!@X keyboard :)
16:25
<ltspbot>
smith_: Error: "@X" is not a valid command.
16:26
<smith_>
/var/log/messages gives an error about g 20 14:22:45 hslnxts01 kernel: audit(1187644965.000:8342): avc: denied { search }
16:27
<vagrantc>
sbalneav: so SDM is configured to automatically login to $HOSTNAME@$ANONYMOUS_USER_SERVER if nothing is entered ... but if the user enters a login name, it logs into $SOME_OTHER_SERVER
16:27
<sbalneav>
vagrantc: What, so if login fails on one box, you want an autologin onto another?
16:27
No, it doesn't support that.
16:27
<vagrantc>
sbalneav: well, it boots up to the login screen ... if you just click on login or hit enter, it does an anonymous login to one server. if you enter a username, it logs into another one.
16:28
sbalneav: and does it support ssh keys for autologin, rather than password logins ?
16:28
sbalneav: those are features freegeek would require.
16:28
they wouldn't have to behave exactly the same way, but something similar
16:28
<sbalneav>
ssh keys it would.
16:29
You'd just enter the userid, and if it logged in, it wouldn't ask for a password.
16:29
<vagrantc>
right
16:30
if you configure the keys like /root/.ssh/id_rsa or whatever
16:30
<sbalneav>
smith_: Well, if a standard laptop won't resolve names, I'd assume it's a general dns issue, and not a ltsp issue.
16:31
<vagrantc>
sbalneav: recently switched freegeek to use LTSP almost everywhere, but still using SDM because of the desired behavior for autologin stuff.
16:32
<smith_>
I'm in agreement that it's DNS but this is an isolated network. I can get to one of the eth cards on the server (10.x) but can't resolve from the other side (192.1680
16:32
<sbalneav>
smith_: Then you haven't set the machine up to forward packets.
16:32
<klausade>
vagrantc: do you know how to feed the client a pre-configured xorg.conf file?
16:33
<vagrantc>
klausade: specify XF86CONFIG_FILE in lts.conf
16:33
<smith_>
what service? is this bind?
16:33
<sbalneav>
klausade: XF86CONFIG_FILE =
16:33
<vagrantc>
in the near future we'll switch it to X_CONFIG_FILE or something so that it's not so historic
16:33
seeing as XF86CONFIG_FILE is obviously from the XFree86 days
16:34
<sbalneav>
smith_: Well, you'll have to use iptables and the /proc/sys/net/ipv4/ip_forward to forward packets from one interface to the other.
16:34
<vagrantc>
but it's easy to put in a backwards compatibility thingy
16:34
<sbalneav>
vagrantc: already done in my tree.
16:34
XORG_CONF = also works.
16:34
<vagrantc>
why not simply X_CONF
16:35
<sbalneav>
Ummm, because we're using xorg?
16:35
That was my reasoning anyway.
16:35
:)
16:35
<smith_>
I provided bad info
16:35
Let me bac up
16:35
<vagrantc>
well, why not just X ... so we don't have to change the variable name when we're no longer using X.org ?
16:36
<smith_>
I can VNC into the server from a machine on the 10.x networrrrr and bowse the internet
16:36
<sbalneav>
I'll look at it tonight.
16:36
I'm off to catch the bus. Sorry, smith_,someone else will help you.
16:36
<smith_>
and I can get a 192.168 address via pxe
16:36
<sbalneav>
see you all on tonight.
16:36sbalneav has quit IRC
16:36
<smith_>
Thanks for the pointers
16:39
<klausade>
did try XF86CONFIG_FILE = filename , where filename is placed in /opt/ltsp/i386/etc/filename doesn't work here.
16:39
i'm using 5.0.8debian3 on etch
16:40
<vagrantc>
klausade: XF86CONFIG_FILE = /etc/filename
16:40
needs the full path, relative to /opt/ltsp/i386
16:40
<klausade>
vagrantc: aah, that is different from ltsp4-2.
16:41
<vagrantc>
klausade: other than that, how is 5.0.8debian3 treating you ? :)
16:42
<klausade>
vagrantc: just fine thanks for asking :-)
16:43
vagrantc: I can confirm that XF86CONFIG_FILE = /etc/filename does work. great work!
16:48
<vagrantc>
klausade: :)
16:49dkennel has joined #ltsp
16:50
<smith_>
I'm lost and don't know where to look
16:50dakennel has joined #ltsp
16:51
<smith_>
my /etc/hosts file maps all the clients addresses
16:51
<dakennel>
Anybody here a guru with the early boot process?
16:51
<vagrantc>
i know my way around the debian and ubuntu initrd stuff ...
16:52
for LTSP5 ...
16:52
though not so much for ubuntu gutsy
16:52
<dakennel>
I'm trying to cram LTSP 5 into RHEL 4 (and eventually 5)
16:53
Ubuntu has Klibc in the initramfs, is that mandatory? RH doesn't have it.
16:53
<vagrantc>
not mandatory, merely one implementation
16:53
you just need to replicate functionality
16:53
though ideally share as much code as possible
16:53
!integration
16:53
<ltspbot>
vagrantc: "integration" is http://wiki.ltsp.org/twiki/bin/view/Ltsp/IntegratingLtsp
16:54
<vagrantc>
dakennel: have you seen that ?
16:54dkennel has quit IRC
16:54
<dakennel>
Yeah, It sometimes is a little weak on details for those of us who aren't used to hacking the linux boot process
16:55
<vagrantc>
well, you probably should be familiar with the linux boot process to really consider taking it on :)
16:56
<dakennel>
I'm getting there rapidly :) I've got the big and medium picture, but as they say the devil is in the details. . .
16:59
It doesn't help that all the distro's do something different :( I'm using an Ubuntu installation as my example of what a working system looks like.
16:59
But there's a lot of differences in the base architecture between Ubuntu and RH.
17:01
<smith_>
OK, so if I do an nslookup and set my 192.168.0.254 server as the authoritize, I can get external addresses
17:02
<vagrantc>
dakennel: what do you have so far?
17:02
dakennel: have you built RPMs of the ltsp-server packages ?
17:03
<dakennel>
I've been working on generating the client root and figuring out how to register it with our RHN Satellite Server so we can update the client root.
17:04
<vagrantc>
dakennel: just generating it manually ?
17:04
<smith_>
but when I try nslookup on 192.168.0.254 I get NXDOMAIN
17:04
<vagrantc>
dakennel: or using the ltsp-build-client and plugins ?
17:05
<dakennel>
Tarballing a minimal + X install, Trying to use up2date produced tons of errors and a pigs breakfast of a chroot.
17:05
<vagrantc>
dakennel: can't you build a chroot with yum or something ?
17:05
<dakennel>
No yum support with Sat Server and RHEL 4.
17:06
<vagrantc>
ah, they haven't moved out of the 90s yet on RH, then? :P
17:06
surely there's some command you can build a chroot with
17:06
<dakennel>
Yeah, they did get yum for RHEL 5 but that has other issues.
17:07
The Sat server is a real PITA for things like this.
17:08
So my process for generating the chroot looks OK (though it's going to make for one hell of a chubby .rpm)
17:09
I've got a good grip on the server side ltsp scripts - update-kernel, update-sshkeys
17:09newmember has joined #ltsp
17:09
<dakennel>
I've started working my way through the client init process and that was when I started thinking about boot issues with the initramfs/initrd.
17:12
<vagrantc>
dakennel: ideally, make a plugin for ltsp-build-client with your chroot generation stuff
17:13
<dakennel>
I was gonna let the really smart guys at RH do that as I have some time pressure to get something that works out.
17:14
Plus Im not sure how to script "create a virtual machine, do a minimal install + X, Tarball the filesystem, copy in the LTSP scripts . . .
17:14
:)
17:15
So the RH initrd is pretty spartan compared to the Ubuntu initramfs.
17:15
<vagrantc>
egads.
17:15
there is almost certainly an easier way.
17:16
<dakennel>
Probably if RPM/Satellite Server didn't suck.
17:16
<vagrantc>
well, gotta roll.
17:16
<dakennel>
You're leaving?
17:17
<vagrantc>
good luck :)
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17:50
<Ryudo>
Hi for all :D
17:51
please anyone i need some help, the terminals of my ltsp is freezing
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17:55
<Ryudo>
anybody ?
18:08
hello ?
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18:23
<Ryudo>
alguém poderia me ajudar ?
18:23
algum brasileiro ?
18:23jammcq has joined #ltsp
18:23
<jammcq>
hey all
18:23
<Ryudo>
hey jam
18:23
jim maquilan ?
18:23
<jammcq>
yep
18:24
<Ryudo>
jim you give a litle help ?
18:24
<jammcq>
dunno, what's the problem?
18:24
<Ryudo>
sorry wait i'm translating
18:24
ehhee
18:26
my terminals are freezing, when I open presentations in power point or seeing images in high resolution
18:26
soo poor translating :O
18:26
intermittently freezing
18:27
i used NBD swap , but the probleman has no solved
18:27
<jammcq>
probably running out of ram on the workstations
18:28
<Ryudo>
my stations are Celeron 333 mhz wich 32, 64 and 128 RAM
18:28
<jammcq>
yeah, that's probably not enough ram. what version of LTSP ?
18:28
<Ryudo>
is 5 , ubuntu 7.04 implementation
18:29
how i solved it ? :(
18:29
<jammcq>
hmm
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18:30
<Ryudo>
NBD swap wich 32mb dont solved it :(
18:30
<jammcq>
try more than 32mb
18:30
<Ryudo>
64 ?
18:31
<jammcq>
sure, or even 128
18:33
<Ryudo>
humm i try it !
18:33
thx jim ! you rox :D
18:39
jim
18:40
<jammcq>
yeah?
18:40
<Ryudo>
where a set the amount of nbd swap ?
18:40
i forget
18:40
<jammcq>
ummm, I don't know
18:40
that's all new stuff with LTSP-5 and Ubuntu
18:40
<Ryudo>
you like that new implementation or you like 4.2 ?
18:40
<jammcq>
I like 5
18:41
4.2 was great, but LTSP-5 has some awesome stuff
18:41
<Ryudo>
humm
18:41
<rcy>
what kinds of things are new in 5?
18:42
<jammcq>
it's all built using Ubuntu packages
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20:37
<andyj>
I was always under the impression that the 'option routers' ip address had to be the same as the ltsp server. However I've just changed it to the ip address of the internet gateway, and everything seems to be working fine. This means I can use the ltsp server as a dhcp server for my windows clients on the same network as well! Is there anything I'm missing
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21:00
<sbalneav>
Evening all
21:12
<andyj>
evening
21:13
i have a question
21:13
I was always under the impression that the 'option routers' ip address had to be the same as the ltsp server. However I've just changed it to the ip address of the internet gateway, and everything seems to be working fine. This means I can use the ltsp server as a dhcp server for my windows clients on the same network as well! Is there anything I'm missing
21:14
<sbalneav>
Nope.
21:14
The routers option simply lists what's going to be the network's default router
21:15
It can be anything.
21:15
<andyj>
wow....for all this time I've been trying to think of all these complex solutions...i thought the clients needed to use the ltsp server as their router
21:15
<sbalneav>
nope
21:16
Always nice when you find out it's simpler than you thought it was, eh? :)
21:16
<andyj>
sbalneav: I'm trying to help someone set up a ubuntu integrated ltsp system, mine is fedora 4.2...is the dhcpd.conf file in /etc or somewhere else?
21:16
sbalneav: yep
21:16
<sbalneav>
/etc/ltsp on Ubuntu.
21:17
<andyj>
sbalneav: okay thanks heaps
21:17
sbalneav: are you working on the opensuse integration? or is that ogra?
21:17
<sbalneav>
No, neither of us are.
21:18
We've provided some help to the OpenSuSE people, bat at the moment, I think it's stalled.
21:18
Really, to fully integrate ltsp5 into a distro, you need the help of the distro team.
21:18
Modifications to the initramfs need to be done, packages need to be included in the main repos, etc.
21:19
<andyj>
yeah...it really seems like ubuntu is the only willing to give it the attention it needs
21:19
<sbalneav>
Ubuntu and Debian.
21:19
<andyj>
ah yeah
21:19
ubuntu is debian based isn't it?
21:20
<sbalneav>
The OpenSuSE people tried to get the company to donate some resources to it, but since SuSE has their own thin client solution, they don't want to spend any time/effort/money on it.
21:20
Yes, Ubuntu is built with Debian as the foundation.
21:20
<andyj>
really? is it a proprietry Novell solution, or open source? never heard of it
21:21
<sbalneav>
Proprietary, I beleive.
21:25
<andyj>
hmmm...figures
21:45
<rcy>
ubuntu is freesoftware, but its backed by a company
21:45
<sbalneav>
So is OpenSuSE
21:45
And Fedora
21:45
<rcy>
right
21:46
proprietary implies that its not free
21:46
<sbalneav>
You can install propriatary software on a Free operating system.
21:46
<rcy>
yes
21:47
maybe im missing something
21:47
i just tuned in.
21:47
<sbalneav>
So far, only Ubuntu i.e. Canonical, has committed actual time and money to help advance ltsp5
21:48
Neither Novell, nor RedHat, feels that ltsp5 is worth devoting any time/effort/money on.
21:48
At present.
21:49
Novell, specifically, has their own, propriatary thin client solution, so they definitely don't want to expend any resources on a completely free solution.
21:49
Make sense now?
21:49
<jammcq>
novell's thin client is not proprietary. it's "kiwi" and i'm pretty sure it's open source
21:50
<sbalneav>
You told me yesterday they had their own propriatary solution!
21:50
<jammcq>
I said they "have their own way"
21:50
I don't recall saying "proprietary". it's definately NOT ltsp
21:51
<sbalneav>
That's not what I heard, but ok, then I was wrong.
21:51
<jammcq>
or I was
21:51
<sbalneav>
the point still remains, however. They have their own solution, and therefore, aren't interested in helping with ours :)
21:52
<jammcq>
zackly
21:52
<sbalneav>
:)
21:52* sbalneav returns to squashing bugs.
21:52
<jammcq>
it's that NIH syndrome you mentioned yesterday
21:52
<sbalneav>
right.
21:54
jammcq: Hey, you ever played with folds under vim?
21:55
<jammcq>
yeah, I gave it a try for a while.
21:55
seemed to be more trouble that it was worth
21:55
<sbalneav>
ogra showed it to me today.
21:56
Maybe the novelty hasn't worn off yet, but I really like 'em
21:56
<jammcq>
is it working well for you?
21:56
<sbalneav>
Yeah!
21:56
<jammcq>
I constantly had trouble getting things to "unfold"
21:56
<sbalneav>
I can skip around code a lot faster.
21:56
<jammcq>
my screens are so big, I can practically see a whole file on the screen at once :)
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22:03
<mystafa>
hi for all!
22:04
guys..i have some problems with keybord in ltsp..can you help me?
22:04
<sbalneav>
Don't know yet, haven't heard the problem :)
22:05
<mystafa>
one second pls ;)
22:05
ltsp is running, all ok, mouse is on,but i can't use a keyboard... it not working
22:05
ltsp is running under debian
22:06
4.2
22:06
version of ltsp ;)
22:06
<rcy>
does numlock toggle a led?
22:06
<mystafa>
no..
22:06
<sbalneav>
You're using the ltsp supplied kernel?
22:06
<mystafa>
yes
22:06
<rcy>
can you get into the bios of the thinclient with the keyboard? before you boot into ltsp?
22:07
<mystafa>
i build it by `ltsp-build-client`
22:07
<jammcq>
that's not 4.2
22:07
<mystafa>
rcy, yes, i can...keyboard is working
22:07
<jammcq>
that's LTSP-5
22:07
have you modified your lts.conf ?
22:07
<mystafa>
no
22:07
<jammcq>
for instance, did you put something like: SCREEN_01 = shell
22:07
in that file?
22:07
<mystafa>
what i must print there?
22:08
one sec
22:09
i have there SCREEN_01 = startx
22:10
<jammcq>
hmm, i'm still not sure what version you are running. if you used 'ltsp_build_client' to build it, that's LTSP-5
22:10
<mystafa>
may be
22:10
<jammcq>
and LTSP-5 should have SCREEN_07 = ldm
22:10
<mystafa>
how i can check what version is used?
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22:11
<jammcq>
mystafa: what do you have for 'filename' in your dhcpd.conf file?
22:11
<mystafa>
pxelinux.0
22:12
<jammcq>
just that? or a full pathname ?
22:12
<rcy>
path name relative to what tftpd is configured as its base directory
22:12
<mystafa>
just that. full path is written at the inetd.conf
22:13
<rcy>
which is likely specified in /etc/inetd.conf
22:13
<mystafa>
rcy, yeah
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22:13
<mystafa>
it is configured
22:13
hhmm... i see one more thing
22:15
when i'am running ltspconf... it says that installation dir is ltsp-4.2 and i think that ltsp is searching for the conf on this dir
22:15
but conf is staying at /opt/ltsp/i386/etc
22:16
<jammcq>
I think you've got a mess
22:16
you ran ltsp-build-client to set up ltsp-5, and you also have ltsp-4.2 utilities installed.
22:16
at any point, did you run ltspadmin ?
22:16
<mystafa>
yes
22:17
<jammcq>
your best bet is to blow away /opt/ltsp, and run 'ltsp-build-client' again
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22:17
<mystafa>
damn...
22:17
<jammcq>
and don't touch ltspadmin or ltspcfg
22:17
<mystafa>
ok... i will try.
22:17
why do not touch?
22:18
<jammcq>
because those tools are for ltsp-4.2
22:18
and they'll break an ltsp-5 setup
22:20
<mystafa>
hm... so.. only a ltsp-5 have a `ltsp-build-client`?
22:20
<jammcq>
that's right
22:20
<mystafa>
i'll take the ltsp package from official repositary
22:23
at the packages.debian.org written that it - ltsp-server (0.99debian11)
22:27
i not understand why ltsp makes two directories /opt/lstp and /opt/ltsp-4.2?
22:29
ok...i will try to delete /opt/ltsp and run build again
22:32
one more question... can i use a local mirror for the `ltsp-build-clent`? i don't want to take all stuff from net again...
22:32
<jammcq>
I don't know how to do that
22:32
<mystafa>
ok...
22:34
<jammcq>
i'm heading to bed. g'night all
22:36
<mystafa>
thanks for help! good night!
22:47
jammcq it worked!!
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23:46
<onats>
cliebow, are you there?