IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.freenode.net (webchat)


Channel log from 4 May 2012   (all times are UTC)

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02:24
<kleewyck>
I just upgraded from Ubuntu 11.10 to edubuntu 12.04 and suddenly my LTSP clients no longer have sound. Any ideas where I could look?
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03:10
<hughessd>
I am not an expert (usually here for help), but when that happened to me, it was because of flash.
03:10
oops, forgot to say: kleewyck, in case you were away
03:24
<damian__>
I really need to learn to take things one step at a time, first get ltsp to work on at least one computer, THEN worry about temporary home directories and virtualgl...
03:24
seeya
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09:55
<Hyperbyte>
Anyone know which gimp version is included with 12.04?
09:58
<alkisg>
Hyperbyte: packages.ubuntu.com/gimp
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09:59
<alkisg>
There's a ppa for gimp 2.8 though, works ok so far
10:01
<Hyperbyte>
Will 12.04 have an update for 2.8, or is that not likely?
10:02
I mean via the main Ubuntu repository
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10:14
<alkisg>
I don't think it's likely, no
10:14
Only from PPAs
10:15
If many people ask for it, it might appear in precise-backports...
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16:13
<muppis>
!win32-loader
16:13
<ltsp`>
muppis: win32-loader: win32-loader.exe can be used to add a "PXE - Network boot" option to the Windows boot manager. It's developed for Debian and it uses gPXE/iPXE for the network booting. You can download a binary from http://ftp.debian.org/debian/tools/win32-loader/unstable/ (if someone can write a wiki page about it it'd be nice :))
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16:35
<alkisg>
!learn ipxe as iPXE is the successor to the etherboot/gPXE project, and can be used to netboot clients that don't have a NIC ROM with a PXE stack. To add it to grub, see !grub-ipxe. To add it to the Windows boot loader, see !win32-loader. To download floppy, CD or USB images, visit http://ipxe.org or install the ipxe package.
16:35
<ltsp`>
alkisg: The operation succeeded.
16:36
<alkisg>
!learn grub-ipxe as http://packages.ubuntu.com/grub-ipxe can be used to add a "Boot from network" option to grub2.
16:36
<ltsp`>
alkisg: The operation succeeded.
16:37
<vagrantc>
in debian, it's just part of the ipxe package now.
16:37
<alkisg>
So by installing ipxe you also get a grub entry?
16:37
<vagrantc>
yup. and there's an ipxe-qemu for just the qemu roms
16:37
there was some talk of splitting further ... no idea if that happened
16:38
<alkisg>
I think it makes sense to split it, as someone might want the .iso and the roms without the grub entry... but having an option to disable the grub entry from /etc/default/ipxe would also do, I guess...
16:40
<vagrantc>
you can disable it in /etc/grub.d/20_ipxe
16:40
actually, it hasn't yet happened
16:40
(the split)
16:40
<alkisg>
It's quite small in debian, so it might not be worth the split http://packages.debian.org/sid/all/ipxe/filelist
16:41
<vagrantc>
right
16:41
<alkisg>
We should offer an /etc/grub.d/20_ltsp entry too :D
16:42
(for ltsp boot from local disk)
16:42
<vagrantc>
can you pass boot arguments to ipxe?
16:42
<alkisg>
Yup
16:42
<vagrantc>
alkisg: you mean using the server's kernel/initrd, or using ipxe ?
16:42
<alkisg>
But better yet, you can use an ipxe script as an initrd
16:42
<vagrantc>
or both
16:42
<alkisg>
None
16:42
If one installs ltsp-client locally, he'd get such an entry,
16:43
<vagrantc>
aha!
16:43
<alkisg>
and by selecting it, it would use the local disk as the ltsp chroot
16:43
<vagrantc>
we're up to all sorts of mischief these days.
16:43
<alkisg>
So the client would boot as a fat client, giving lts.conf global configuration, central user management + sshfs or nfs
16:43
It's very useful for slow networks, many schools asked for that here
16:44
<vagrantc>
think we can make it viable before the end of may? :)
16:44
<alkisg>
....yes but only if others do the "ltsp-pnp" stuff testing :D
16:45
I'll start working tomorrow, been busy with other things the last days and I got a big behind schedule
16:46
<vagrantc>
hopefully i'll have more free time too ...
16:46
<alkisg>
I want to ask some of the more advanced teachers here to try debian installations instead of 12.04 for the next 2 years
16:46
So if `ltsp-update-image /` works on debian out of the box, it would make it easy for them
16:47
<vagrantc>
debian squeeze? or trying out testing?
16:47
<alkisg>
Testing, but not yet, in the summer
16:47
Once all the ltsp additions are there
16:47
(end of may)
16:47
<vagrantc>
great :)
16:50
alkisg: going with gnome3, or lxde, or xfce or something?
16:50
<alkisg>
Their option
16:50
There are actually some already using debian + lxde, but without ltsp due to slow network
16:51
Previously I used to suggest gnome, but now with gnome-shell and unity I think it's better to support alternative DEs too :)
16:51
<muppis>
I'm now using ltsp-client from local hdd and connection is over 54g wlan. Usable. Over 11b wlan it was little bit too slow.
16:52
<alkisg>
muppis: from local hdd, but as a thin client or as a fat one?
16:52
Because as a thin, 100 mbps for 12 clients isn't enough
16:52
<muppis>
As a thin.
16:52
<alkisg>
While as a fat, they'd only use the nfs/sshfs share
16:52
Gotta go, later...
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17:10
<jvx>
new install .. clients are getting dhcp and gateway IP but hangs at TFTP : "PEX-E11 arp timeout" followed with "TFTP cannot open connection" What's the best place to start for solving?
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17:19
<vagrantc>
jvx: is it a managed switch? i've seen similar issues with spanningtree enabled on a set of chained managed switches.
17:19
also, sometimes issues with gigabit on the server and 100mb on the thin clients and switch interactions
17:22
<jvx>
vagrantc, no switch .. client is direct connected with a cross-over cable. It is though a 1Gb eth on the server going to 100mb client.
17:24
vagrantc, no way to slow it down? ... I'll have to match eth cards (and reinstall) to fix? Or is there a setting to tune?
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17:34
<vagrantc>
jvx: i don't remember the workarounds off the top of my head
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18:21
<alkisg>
vagrantc: $ sh -n client/init-ltsp.d/Debian/50-disable-inittab-entries
18:21
client/init-ltsp.d/Debian/50-disable-inittab-entries: 5: client/init-ltsp.d/Debian/50-disable-inittab-entries: Syntax error: end of file unexpected (expecting "then")
18:21
I.e. remove the second if
18:24* vagrantc is slacking
18:25
<vagrantc>
alkisg: thanks yet again!
18:26
<alkisg>
np, just making sure Debian is in a good health for end of May :)
18:26
<vagrantc>
hah!
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18:26
<vagrantc>
that would also presumably affect future versions of ubuntu, the way you're doing it
18:27
<alkisg>
vagrantc: btw why "DISABLE_INITTAB_GETTYS" and not just "DISABLE_GETTYS", so that we could reuse the same var in ubuntu?
18:27
<vagrantc>
hm.
18:27
<alkisg>
INITTAB refers to the implementation, vars would be better to be implementation agnostic
18:28
<vagrantc>
i was thinking it'd be best to be very specific, but sure.
18:29
pushed both fixes :)
18:29
<alkisg>
(09:26:38 μμ) vagrantc: that would also presumably affect future versions of ubuntu, the way you're doing it ==> I didn't get that part
18:29
Ubuntu has no inittab, just upstart files for gettys...
18:29
<vagrantc>
alkisg: sure, i guess it's safeguarded that way
18:30
<alkisg>
Yup, and it might be even reasonable to put it in common, for other distros that still use inittab, assuming the sed line works there
18:31
Hmm no, no such line in fedora
18:31
<vagrantc>
i'll leave that for others to decide.
18:31
fedora was using upstart at one point, maybe systemd now?
18:32
init systems seems to be an area of primary divergence lately ... gentoo has openrc?
18:32
<alkisg>
I was checking Hyperbyte's server, which is an old fedora
18:32
It only has id:3:initdefault: in inittab
18:33* alkisg wishes distros could converge a bit there.... hope systemd will be widely accepted, since upstart doesn't appear to be adopted outside of ubuntu nowadays
18:33
<muppis>
Which is little sad as being so neat system.
18:36
<alkisg>
The Debian upstart RFP seems permanately frozen
18:36
*ITP
18:37
<vagrantc>
it should probably be closed, it's in debian stable, testing and unstable :)
18:37
although an old version
18:37
<alkisg>
Heh! Fun, I didn't notice that :D
18:37
packages.debian.org/systemd is there too
18:38
Any rumors about which one will Debian prefer in the future as the default, if any?
18:38
<vagrantc>
there are heated discussions that flare up now and again
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18:39
<vagrantc>
though i really haven't seen the desperate need that people seem to go on about ...
18:41
<alkisg>
vagrantc: (thinking about ltsp-update-image), what's a good way to detect if NFS is used? Does ltsp-server.postinst put /opt/ltsp in /etc/exports or the user puts it there manually?
18:42
<vagrantc>
alkisg: historically, the user puts it there manually ... but i've started using /etc/exports/ltsp.exports
18:42
er, /etc/exports.d/
18:43
<alkisg>
An idea is, if NFS is used, ltsp-update-image could output a warning and stop execution, and tell the user to pass --force in order to switch to NBD
18:43
<vagrantc>
ltsp-server ships /etc/exports.d/ltsp-server.exports
18:43
<alkisg>
Cool, so we can test for that without checking the distro
18:44
And another idea is, if the user runs ltsp-update-image, to automatically enable pxe menus and list both entries, nbd and nfs
18:44
Whatever you prefer
18:45
What I'd like is to have some command or method to switch debian to nbd with a single command, without editing files
18:45
ltsp-update-image --force / or whatever
18:45
<vagrantc>
it sounds useful, i'm just not sure how to best do it.
18:46
alkisg: maybe rather than force, --configure-nbd ?
18:46
<alkisg>
Sure
18:46
<vagrantc>
since that's actually what's it's doing ...
18:47
<alkisg>
But in Ubuntu, that switch wouldn't be needed as NFS isn't used by default
18:47
So I don't know if Ubuntu users would think they'd need to specify that parameter too
18:47
<vagrantc>
alkisg: well, if that parameter is safe to re-run on a setup that already supports it, it should be fine.
18:48
<alkisg>
Yeah... and a nice description of the parameter will probably settle any misunderstandings
18:48
<vagrantc>
right.
18:48
<alkisg>
OK, will do
18:49
<vagrantc>
alkisg: how to handle ext[2-4]/btrfs/etc images vs. squashfs images? essentially read-only "compiled" filesystems vs. more conventional writeable filesystem images?
18:49
<alkisg>
Well... some things are needed:
18:50
<vagrantc>
we could read the filesystem type from an existing image, and act accordingly
18:50
<alkisg>
1) fs type, 2) loopback image size, 3) update or recreate the image
18:50
<vagrantc>
1 can be got with file, probably
18:50
(unless the images are partitioned)
18:50
<alkisg>
Not if you are creating it
18:51
E.g. ltsp-update-image / --type=btrfs --size=1G
18:51
<vagrantc>
right
18:51
<alkisg>
vs ltsp-update-image --update, which would get the type+size from the file
18:51
--sync or whatever
18:51
(rsync)
18:51
And ltsp-chroot could work with those as well
18:51
<vagrantc>
rsync?
18:52
<alkisg>
ltsp-update-image / ==> does the ltsp-pnp thing
18:52
That takes 10 minutes
18:52
If you just install htop then and want to update it, you can run ltsp-update-image --update
18:52
<vagrantc>
ah right, copying the server's FS to the image
18:52
<alkisg>
Which would run rsync and finish in under a minute
18:52
<vagrantc>
guess you could also do that with an fs image.
18:53
what about: if image already exists, update it with the same type, and if it doesn't exist, do the "sane default" thing ... ?
18:53
<alkisg>
Yes, but still creation vs fs image update should be a different parameter
18:53
--update might error with "insufficient space"
18:53
So there should be a way to re-create the image even if it exists
18:54
Or at least a way to expand it
18:54
<vagrantc>
where sane default is for conventional ltsp with /opt/ltsp/ARCH you'd make a squashfs image, and speccify --type if you want something different.
18:54
alkisg: so you want to be able to roll back?
18:55
that's going to be limited by filesystem, unless you do a whole image copy.
18:55
<alkisg>
No no I want to be able to update the loopback btrfs image from another dir as the source
18:55
<vagrantc>
and use btrfs snapshots?
18:55
<alkisg>
OK scratch ltsp-pnp, let's make a regular installation as the example
18:55
One creates a fat chroot in /opt/ltsp/i386 normally
18:55
<vagrantc>
thanks :)
18:55
then once we know how we want that to work, we can add the other approaches :)
18:56
<alkisg>
Then he runs ltsp-update-image --type=btrfs and gets a /opt/ltsp/images/i386.mg
18:56
img
18:56
<vagrantc>
what if it's a she?
18:56
<alkisg>
...
18:56
:D
18:56
Then he updates his chroot in /opt/ltsp/i386
18:56
and he wants to "transfer" the updates to the loopback image
18:56
That's where the rsync helps, to speed up the transfer
18:57
Now you may say that having the /opt/ltsp/i386 dir is not useful in that case,
18:57
but the "source dir" may be a .vdi or .qcow file
18:57
maintained in vbox
18:57
Or an NFS share, maintained in a real client
18:57
So the rsync option would speed things up a lot
18:58
<vagrantc>
sure, i can see that.
18:59
<alkisg>
Also, the cleanup phase is necessary when exporting "real" images and not chroots, as those have users, passwords etc that need to be removed, and that cleanup phase would be called from ltsp-update-image
18:59
<vagrantc>
the current NBD use case, NBD+squashfs with a chroot to build from would remain unchanged?
19:00
(more or less)
19:00
<alkisg>
For now of course, but in the future we might want to change the defaults to compressed btrfs + rsync
19:00
Depends on how many people start using fat chroots, which are very large + take a long time to update
19:00
<vagrantc>
well, sure. so then i guess --type=squashfs which happens to be the default
19:01
(until it changes)
19:01
<alkisg>
Yup
19:01
<vagrantc>
so then there might also be --source parameter?
19:02
i.e. --source=/opt/ltsp/i386, --source=/, --source=/foo/bar/image.qcow ?
19:02
<alkisg>
If compressed btrfs is e.g. 80% as fast as squashfs, and we handle loopback images pretty well (with ltsp-build-client and ltsp-chroot support and everything), that might help in avoiding the need for some cases with source dirs
19:02
I think the unnamed parameter could be the source
19:02
ltsp-update-image /
19:02
That / is the "source dir or file"
19:02
ltsp-update-image /path/to/qcow
19:02
<vagrantc>
unnamed parameters are kind of a nightmare
19:02
<alkisg>
We do that currently in ltsp-update-kernels
19:02* vagrantc would prefer being explicit
19:03
<vagrantc>
hmmm...
19:03
<alkisg>
E.g. ltsp-update-kernels i386 amd64
19:03
<vagrantc>
isn't that a recent change ... it used to just do "all the chroots it can find" by default, unless you specified otherwise
19:03
<alkisg>
I don't think so, let me check...
19:04
<vagrantc>
which is different than options specified without parameters
19:04* vagrantc wonders how LTSP adds up to 67
19:05
<alkisg>
Haha
19:05
ord('L') + ord('T') + ...
19:05
Not ascii ord, alphabetical ord
19:07
<vagrantc>
oh yes, ALL_CHROOTS="$@"
19:07
<alkisg>
vagrantc: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ltsp-upstream/ltsp/ltsp-trunk/revision/317.2.174
19:08
2007-03-15
19:08* vagrantc had nightmares fixing up the qemu-debootstrap wrapper because of debootstrap's implicit commandline ordering
19:08
<vagrantc>
so i'm just reacting to that
19:08
<alkisg>
We use getopt though
19:08
So ordering doesn't matter
19:08
<vagrantc>
as long as there's only ever one thing specified without explicit parameters, it's fine.
19:09
<alkisg>
I think that one thing should be the source file/dir, yeah
19:09
(files/dirs)
19:09
And if path is omitted, /opt/ltsp/<name> should be assumed
19:09
<vagrantc>
although i'd still prefer it to also support an explicit argument... makes for cleaner documentation
19:09
<alkisg>
I don't know if we can handle multiple files/dirs then though
19:10
<vagrantc>
like "why on earth is / just thrown in at the end? is that a typo?"
19:10
<alkisg>
--source=1.vdi --source=2.qcow ?
19:10
<vagrantc>
whereas --source=/ makes it a little clearer
19:10
<alkisg>
OK, we can support both
19:10
<vagrantc>
we don't need to support multiples, do we?
19:10
<alkisg>
ltsp-update-kernels i386 amd64 ?
19:11
<vagrantc>
ah, right.
19:11
<alkisg>
We currently allow that, but yeah personally I never need it
19:11
<vagrantc>
--source=i386,amd64
19:11
?
19:11
<alkisg>
That would work, but people might then think that ltsp-update-kernels i386,amd64 is a valid syntax too
19:11
<vagrantc>
right.
19:12
would be nice to keep everything consistant
19:12
<alkisg>
On second thought I think we should only support the sources in _one_ of those 2 methods
19:12
Either --source=list, or unnamed parameters, not both
19:12
Both would be hard to document
19:13
<vagrantc>
well, the --source at least has some sort of rudimentary readability just from looking at it ...
19:13
<alkisg>
And we might _not_ support multiple sources, it might make things harder
19:13
E.g. what about the target?
19:13
--arch=x can specify the target image name
19:14
But one can't use that with multiple sources
19:14
<vagrantc>
right
19:14
you couldn't specify both source and target sanely with multiples
19:14
<alkisg>
so, ltsp-update-kernels --source=i386 ? ltsp-update-image --source=/path/to/vdi --arch=myfatimage ?
19:15
Or unnamed, ltsp-update-kernels i386, ltsp-update-image --arch=myfatimage /path/to/vdi ?
19:15
<vagrantc>
we've kind of overloaded the meaning of --arch :(
19:16
<alkisg>
Yeah, but people do that, --arch=fati386 has a lot of google hits
19:16
<vagrantc>
i know
19:16
<alkisg>
I wouldn't mind using a different parameter name for that
19:16
<vagrantc>
is it worth "fixing"
19:16
<alkisg>
+1
19:16
:)
19:16
--source, --target ?
19:16
<vagrantc>
seems sane.
19:16
or --source --image ?
19:17
<alkisg>
And when the path is omitted, /opt/ltsp would be assumed
19:17
and /opt/ltsp/images for the target
19:17
or image, yeah
19:18
And target would default to <arch>, as it does now
19:18
so, ltsp-update-image --source=/ or --source=i386 or completely omitted if only 1 chroot exists
19:19
Btw by only supporting one source we also make --type and --size etc saner
19:20
Otherwise we couldn't specify multiple types, sources, targets etc
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19:28
<zamba>
how does edubuntu combine with ltsp?
19:29
or.. i've just tested edubuntu 12.04 and find that gnome classic desktop session there is just the desktop session i've missed from the latest version of ubuntu..
19:29
so this is maybe a more ubuntu-specific question: how do i tweak ubuntu into getting the same desktop experience as edubuntu's gnome classic?
19:30
is "gnome shell" the package i need to install?
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19:37
<vagrantc>
zamba: you've an edubuntu server with LTSP? should just use whatever edubuntu "normally" uses
19:38
although i've heard a number of issues around the detection of fallback stuff in ubuntu in general
19:38
<zamba>
gnome-session-fallback is the package i need, apparantly :)
19:38
i'll try now
19:38
oh yes!
19:38
productivity! i welcome you back!
19:39
and finally it looks and feel the way it should
19:40
<alkisg>
!gnome-classic
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19:55
<vagrantc>
what i think alkisg meant to say was:
19:55
!gnome-classic
19:55
<ltsp`>
vagrantc: gnome-classic: To select gnome-classic as your default session, put this line in your lts.conf: LDM_SESSION="gnome-session --session=gnome-classic"
19:55
<vagrantc>
!tell
19:55
<ltsp`>
vagrantc: (tell <nick> <text>) -- Tells the <nick> whatever <text> is. Use nested commands to your benefit here.
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<mmetzger>
~.
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21:45
<alkisg>
!gnome-classic
21:45
<ltsp`>
alkisg: gnome-classic: To select gnome-classic as your default session, put this line in your lts.conf: LDM_SESSION="gnome-session --session=gnome-classic"
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