IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.freenode.net (webchat)


Channel log from 1 February 2017   (all times are UTC)

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07:45
<alkisg>
!cheap-client
07:45
<ltsp`>
cheap-client: http://www.gearbest.com/tv-box-mini-pc/pp_343636.html
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07:47
<alkisg>
!learn cheap-client as https://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/New-arrival-Beelink-Pocket-Z83-Windows-10-Mini-PC-Z8300-64bit-1-84GHz-2GB-RAM-32GB/1871240_32640039781.html
07:47
<ltsp`>
The operation succeeded.
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14:48
<rlyshw>
alkisg: any way to get these clients without win10 pre-installed?
15:10
<alkisg>
rlyshw: afaik no, but why would that matter? you can just format...
15:10
You could probably get other clients without win10 though
15:10
<rlyshw>
I always feel like a no-OS system would be cheaper, no?
15:10
<alkisg>
I don't think china win10 increase the box price :D
15:10
Nope, not in china
15:10
<rlyshw>
Ahhhh right haha
15:11
<alkisg>
After all it's less than $100
15:11
How much cheaper can it get, for atom+2gb ram+64 dom...
15:11
+gigabit etc etc
15:11
usb3, wifi, bluetooth...
15:11
<rlyshw>
Yeah that's true, just looking for the cheapest possible thing to convince my boss to go in on a few of those, right after he bought 4 more Raspberry Pis for this project.
15:11
<alkisg>
Haha you can set up an accident... just step on the rpis
15:12
Or you can tell him that the software support for the rpis will cost 300 euros
15:12
<rlyshw>
Yeah exactly that's basically what I'm saying in the ticket write up right now
15:12
<alkisg>
...so the new boxes will be cheaper :D
15:12
<rlyshw>
The 10 hrs of debugging work I put in for the Pis is just not worth the end-result.
15:13
<alkisg>
Especially if the end result is "not able to use a web browser"
15:13
<rlyshw>
yeah once you start up firefox it just slows right down. Not worth it.
15:14
<alkisg>
IMHO, being able to watch full screen youtube is the minimum for desktop pc specs
15:14
rpis can't do that
15:15
<rlyshw>
Yeah exactly. I mean, our clients are running on old sunrays atm so the Pis wouldn't be much worse, but I don't think it's worth the effort to move from sunrays to something of equal or lesser utility.
15:15
<alkisg>
Yup, I feel the same way for schools here, which use p3 or p4 as thin clients, and some government people want them to switch to rpis,
15:15
...which would actually be a bit slower... :(
15:16
And I stopped ltsp support for rpis just to prohibit them to do that
15:16
<rlyshw>
Good move, you should maybe edit the Ubuntu wiki about raspberry pis, then
15:16
https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/RaspberryPi
15:16
<alkisg>
Yup, that's my page. I put "it doesn't run in 16.04" on top, check it
15:17
<rlyshw>
ah that needs to be larger and more demanding
15:17
<alkisg>
Haha
15:17
<rlyshw>
"This won't work you should stop now"
15:17
<alkisg>
Maybe "throw the pis while it's still early!!!"
15:18
<ogra_>
alkisg, hmm, is that the supported pi kernel you refer to ? (linx-raspi2 package)
15:18
*linux
15:19
<alkisg>
ogra_: yes, if i remember correctly... it's been months
15:19
ubuntu-mate actually doesn't use the supported kernel, that's why it boots
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15:20
<ogra_>
weird, we support it on ubuntu-core and there is have vc4 fully running with kms and everything using this kernel
15:20
though there are no pi3 classic (apt) images IIRC
15:20
<alkisg>
ogra_: what can I say, check the linked bug report, noone replied there
15:21
rainbow screen is all we got
15:21
<ogra_>
well, because there is no supported image
15:21
<alkisg>
It's just a fat file system
15:21
Putting the files there from the packages should be enough...
15:21
Even if there's no shipped image
15:22
<ogra_>
well, the packages mentioned in the bug arent even in the archive
15:22
thats all some PPA stuff
15:22
<alkisg>
I tried with stuff in the archive
15:22
<ogra_>
from random people
15:22
<alkisg>
The reporter got a bit confused with his many tests
15:23
<ogra_>
i know the pi2 server image from releases.u.c. definitely works ... though i think the only images fully supporting kms and vc4 are the snappy ones
15:24
(snappy has the advantage that you can always use upstream instead of being bound to the archive, so bootloader and uboot are always on the latest versions)
15:24
<alkisg>
I tried with the 16.04 one: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux-raspi2/4.4.0-1009.10
15:24
(among others)
15:24
And with the stock firmware... don't remember the name off-hand...
15:25
<ogra_>
http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/releases/16.04.1/release/
15:25
there is the pi2 server image
15:25
and that gets tested regulary afaik
15:25
<alkisg>
In real hardware, or in vm?
15:25
<ogra_>
vm ?
15:26
<alkisg>
qemu
15:26
<ogra_>
hwo would you do that
15:26
<alkisg>
kvm has arm emulation
15:26
<ogra_>
is there a pi qemu machine implementation ?
15:26
arm, sure ... but pi specifically ??
15:26
<alkisg>
that's how we do ltsp-chroot in pi chroots
15:26
No, not pi specifically
15:26
That's what I'm asking, if they're using that emulation
15:27
<ogra_>
are you talking about qemu-user-static ?
15:27
<alkisg>
It works almost OK for rpi chroots
15:27
<ogra_>
thats only a rootfs emu
15:27
you cant emulate machines with that
15:27
so you cant test install images with it
15:27
<alkisg>
You can chroot and run stuff under arm architecture
15:28
<ogra_>
(read: indeed on real HW)
15:28
<alkisg>
Gotcha
15:28
<ogra_>
alkisg, i know i wrote that
15:28
<alkisg>
:)
15:28
It does emulate an arm processor, doesn't it?
15:28
<ogra_>
not really, it intercepts syscalls and translates them,
15:28
<alkisg>
How does it run binaries then?
15:29
<ogra_>
by translating the syscalls
15:29
you effectively execute on x86
15:29
<alkisg>
What about the assembly stuff, that doesn't have syscalls?
15:29
<ogra_>
true assembly (and quite a lot of other things) fail
15:29
<alkisg>
A "for" in C gets translated to native arm code, without syscalls
15:29
So all programs would have native arm code in them
15:30
<ogra_>
thats one of the reasons we never managed to make mono work in that setup
15:30
<alkisg>
syscalls are only a minor portion of the executables
15:30
<ogra_>
mono uses a garbage collector that talks directly to HW ...
15:31
<alkisg>
"qemu-system-arm" emulates cortex-a8 etc
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15:31
<alkisg>
That's what they say in the docs
15:31
<ogra_>
right
15:31
thats the machine emulation
15:31
<alkisg>
I can't imagine how it would work with only syscalls
15:31
<ogra_>
and if the machine you want is implemented in it you can actually test install media on it
15:32
thats exactly the opposite of qemu-user.static
15:32
and iirc it comes with like three CPU implementations ... vexpress, beagleboard and beaglebone or some such
15:33
but nobody implemented rpi to my knowledge
15:33
(and that would be tricky given the closed nature of the HW)
15:33
<alkisg>
The native code would be arm in all cases, wouldn't it?
15:33
That's how qemu-system-arm would run it
15:34
It wouldn't be able to boot a "pi", but it would be able to run a pi chroot
15:34
<ogra_>
qemu-system-arm spawns a full CPU emulation
15:34
while qemu-user-static tarnslates syscalls and hands the rest of stuff to libc
15:34
<alkisg>
A hello world is 100 native arm commands, and one syscall
15:34
<ogra_>
yes
15:35
<alkisg>
What executes the 100 native arm commands?
15:35
*instructions?
15:35
<ogra_>
libc
15:35
<alkisg>
libc knows to translate from arm to x86?
15:35
isn't that qemu's work?
15:35
<ogra_>
qemu does
15:36
http://paste.ubuntu.com/23905739/
15:36
<alkisg>
/usr/bin/qemu-arm-static
15:36
That's what's running when I chroot to the rpi chroot
15:36
<ogra_>
thats the list of machines you could emulate with qemu-system-arm
15:37
alkisg, yes, i know ... it then calls out to the kernels binfmt-misc module
15:37
<alkisg>
I'm guessing that means the "system emulation", while the chroot is pretty much the same, i.e. it doesn't matter if it's one board or the other
15:37
<ogra_>
and translates every instruction
15:37
<alkisg>
Right
15:37
That's what I thought; syscalls are not enough
15:37
<ogra_>
the chroot is not the same since not everything is translated
15:38
you will find a lot of unsupported syscalls and instructions
15:38
<alkisg>
You don't have a "boot process", with gpu firmware etc
15:38
<ogra_>
it works for the most common use cases
15:38
y<ou dont have a HW emulation at all
15:38
<alkisg>
Just a cpu, understood
15:38
<ogra_>
only a translation layer
15:38
and a fake CPU
15:39
your proc is even the x86 one ... there is no translation of any machine specific bits
15:39
<alkisg>
So back to the initial question, yeah I was thinking that they could be using that to automate tests, while you said no, they're using real hw, which is fine
15:39
<ogra_>
only code execution
15:39
right
15:39
if they wanted to actually test it they would ghave to use -system-arm
15:39
<alkisg>
So I guess we could test if it works with the most recent releases
15:40* alkisg is so disappointed in rpis though, that he can't even make decent media players from them...
15:40
<ogra_>
use libreelec ;)
15:40
i run my TV on it :)
15:41
(supports DVBSat so you can actually watch Tv and use it for streaming as well)
15:41
<alkisg>
Nah... for example, the kids want to google "some movie online" and watch it, kodi/elec etc can't do that
15:41
<ogra_>
huh ?
15:41
sure it can
15:41
matter of the right addons :)
15:42
<alkisg>
They go to "some.website.com", and watch movies via flash player
15:42
No flash in rpi
15:42
Also, even if the site supports html5, rpi is too slow to play it
15:42
<ogra_>
ah, right ... html5 works fine though
15:42
<alkisg>
No gpu-accelerated plugins there either
15:42
Nope, html5 sucks too
15:42* ogra_ watches FHD stuff in html5 all the time
15:42
<alkisg>
youtube.com/html5 ==> full screen => 2 fps
15:42
With firefox and rpi?
15:42
<ogra_>
streaming the latest series etc
15:42
nah
15:43
with kodi and plugins
15:43
<alkisg>
Right, so it's not html5
15:43
<ogra_>
why would i use firefox on an embedded system
15:43
<alkisg>
It's native media player with streaming
15:43
Because you can't find "some move with greek subs" in youtube
15:43
<ogra_>
its html5 based streming
15:43
just no browser involved
15:43
<alkisg>
You can only find it in "some.site.com/html5 player with ads"
15:43
Right, so you wouldn't be able to see all those movies
15:44
<ogra_>
right, and if you have a proper plugin it will cut out the ads
15:44
<alkisg>
You can't have a plugin for "random site"
15:44
You need to write one
15:44
<ogra_>
if the site hard-demands flash you are screwed inded
15:44
<alkisg>
And if there are 100 sites, you'll spend 100 hours to see 1 movie
15:44
<ogra_>
but nione of the sites i use for streaming do
15:45
<alkisg>
Well,all the sites that my kids use, can't be played with kodi/elec etc
15:45
<ogra_>
weird
15:45
<alkisg>
and of course can't be played with firefox in rpi
15:45
(with more than 2 fps)
15:45
<ogra_>
given how dead flash is supposed to be nowadays :)
15:45
<alkisg>
They may be html5
15:45
That still doesn't make them playable with kodi
15:46
You'd need a site parsing plugin, for random sites...
15:46
<ogra_>
well, get rid of firefox ... thats really nothing for a pi
15:46
right
15:46
<alkisg>
Nah, I got rid of the rpis, no need to abandon everything just to make it run on lame hardware
15:46
:D
15:46
<ogra_>
firefox will streasm html5 fully in SW on a pi
15:47
thats completely useless
15:47
<alkisg>
Right, firefox does cpu decoding, not gpu decoding
15:47
<ogra_>
yeah
15:47
nothing the pi is designed for
15:47
<alkisg>
I could use a pentium 3 with gpu decoding then
15:47
No need to use a pi
15:47
<ogra_>
yeah :)
15:49
<alkisg>
It's like "buy this small pentium 3, and we hope the programs will use the gpu to make it run faster! do help us! spend 1000 hours in making your use case work with our limited hardware!"
15:49
..no thanks :D
15:50
quad core atom, 2 gb ram, intel graphics card, 64 gb dom, gigabit lan, wifi, bluetooth => in the same price as the rpi
15:50
...why would I ever bother with rpi then...
15:54
At some point, it's possible that firefox will implement html5 video decoding in rpi with the gpu... at that point, it'll be somewhat usable
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16:00
<ogra_>
well, the atmo most likely has a fan
16:00
*atom
16:01* ogra_ doesnt want fans in the living room
16:01
<alkisg>
No, most are fanless nowadays, in mini pcs
16:01
<ogra_>
ah
16:01
<alkisg>
!cheap-client
16:01
<ltsp`>
cheap-client: (#1) http://www.gearbest.com/tv-box-mini-pc/pp_343636.html, or (#2) https://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/New-arrival-Beelink-Pocket-Z83-Windows-10-Mini-PC-Z8300-64bit-1-84GHz-2GB-RAM-32GB/1871240_32640039781.html
16:01
<ogra_>
i havent touched x86 in a long time
16:01
<alkisg>
Check the second one there
16:08* markit takes note
16:10
<markit>
btw I would love 4GB ram (should cost really few $ more)
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16:31
<markit>
lol, incredible in the site about a pc: "Free Operating System: Default installed our activated OEM cracked version(not genuine) Win7 or Win8 or Win10 English for free"
16:31
shameless
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18:04
<gvy>
ogra_, baytrail chips can do fanless
18:05* gvy touches e2k these days though
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