IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.freenode.net (webchat)


Channel log from 5 November 2010   (all times are UTC)

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02:43
<alkisg>
Anyone tried this for web .flv video playback? http://e-valkov.org/linterna-magica - it sounds much better developed than the previous greasemonkey solutions....
03:12
<elias_a>
Might be a bit off topic but does someone have any hints on how to build up a simple info-TV system on Linux? Does not have to be LTSP based. LAMP is of course the most likely way but are there any guides or hints about how to do it in a very simple way?
03:13
<alkisg>
Yup linterna magica seems to work fine with XV acceleration and < 10% CPU usage, but for videos lacking an .flv index the whole video needs to be streamed before the playing starts... at least it seems steady.
03:14
<elias_a>
Use case: TV connected to a cheap PC or client showing a web page having a few subpages.
03:15
<alkisg>
elias_a: LTSP kiosk mode with file:///static web pages without lamp?
03:16
(you can also put dynamic .php pages on the server, if needed...)
03:19
<elias_a>
alkisg: Good idea - the server side is still the hard one: IMHO a WYSIWYG editor is needed for the input. Any hints on possible solutions?
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03:21
<alkisg>
elias_a: well, you could find some workarounds that do not require a LAMP setup (like some ckeditor backends) but IMHO running `tasksel install lamp` would be a much saner approach, and you can install any CMS with WYSIWYG editors on top of that.
03:22
Or if there's internet connectivity, you can use a web server for that, e.g. google sites or something....
03:23
<gnunux>
bonjour
03:23
<alkisg>
Καλημέρα :)
03:23
<gnunux>
sorry ... hi
03:23
<elias_a>
Yep - I think I'll get along with it...
03:23
gnunux: Hyvää huomenta!
03:24
<hahlo>
huomenta :)
03:25
what about dvb, if ltsp-server got dvb card will clients see the picture?
03:26
<alkisg>
elias_a: will the users have a mouse? Or will the be just watching a tv-like presentation?
03:26
<elias_a>
hahlo: I would not recommend doing it that way. Are you thinking about general "central TV" in a local network?
03:27
<hahlo>
yes
03:28
<alkisg>
hahlo: with a localapps player it should work ok, but if it isn't a localapp and it runs on the server, performance will suffer..
03:28
<elias_a>
alkisg: I am trying to find a way how to use touchscreens so that people could navigate at will using the Info TV-screen and get some additional information. No activity in say 30 seconds -> back to the original page or set of pages.
03:28
<alkisg>
hahlo: Sorry scratch that I thought it was a software-only service
03:29
elias_a: so would an openoffice presentation (with links) suffice?
03:30
<hahlo>
ok
03:30
<elias_a>
alkisg: I haven't thought of it like that... perhaps...
03:30
hahlo: You're a Finn, right?
03:31
<hahlo>
joo yes
03:31
<elias_a>
There's a howto on DYI central digital TV here: http://www.tkukoulu.fi/digitv/
03:32
Not LTSP specific - idea is that the stream is transferred in LAN and VLC is used for viewing.
03:33
There are some other ways to do this as well - I have it on my tasklist to blog about them.
03:33
<hahlo>
elias_a: thanks will look in to that
03:44
<elias_a>
alkisg: I'd actually prefer keeping the text content in text format. The Info TV should also be capable of communication during emergency situations. The same information should go to all possible media: popups on PC and LTSP client screens, social media, email...
03:45
Of course you can generate a script that makes a presentation from that material but that apporach is IMHO far less KISS than just feeding the text to the web pages.
03:45
<alkisg>
Right, it sounds like you need a CMS :)
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07:18
<hahlo>
btw what is difference between thin and fat clients?
07:19
<mgariepy>
hahlo, thin client run most of the software on the server and fat client run the software locallu
07:19
locally*
07:20
<hahlo>
but still use server for something?
07:21
<muppis>
Loading that image at least.
07:21
And for home dir.
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07:23
<hahlo>
how to make fat client? do I install system on local disk too?
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07:29
<muppis>
!fat
07:29
<ltspbot>
muppis: Error: "fat" is not a valid command.
07:30
<muppis>
https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/LTSPFatClients
07:30
<hahlo>
thank you
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09:59
<hahlo>
what kind of hardware you have to have to make fat client faster than thin client?
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10:09
<alkisg>
hahlo: clients that can run a normal distro. E.g. for Ubuntu, >= 512 RAM, >= 1.5 GHz CPU etc.
10:09
<muppis>
hahlo, I think most gain in fat vs. local comes theres no need for hdd.
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10:10
<alkisg>
And also authentication + networked /home + managing 1 installation instead of many.
10:11
<hahlo>
ok cool I give it a try
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11:00
<UtrinqueParatus>
Is there a more up to date server sizing document available?
11:01
<alkisg>
!docs
11:01
<ltspbot>
alkisg: "docs" :: For the most current documentation, see https://sourceforge.net/apps/mediawiki/ltsp/index.php?title=Ltsp_LtspDocumentationUpstream
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11:02
<Gadi>
so, when we set the time with TIMESERVER, we use hwclock --utc - any idea why we do not use localtime?
11:08
<UtrinqueParatus>
Cany anyone advise on a server spec for a small office environment LTSP setup?
11:09
I was thinking 3 x 1TB sata drives in RAID5, 8gb Ram, Quad core 3.6ghz, Gigabit ethernet
11:10
10 users mainly web browsing, email and openoffice
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11:21
<LeonardoCabelo>
Hello, Somebody know how to make a rdp sound work with ltsp5 on debian server
11:25
<alkisg>
Gadi: no idea, but shouldn't we respect the UTC setting in /etc/default/rcS?
11:30
<Kyle__>
UtrinqueParatus: 3 drives in Raid5 will have some pretty significant overhead. You may want to consider having 2xSSDs in raid0, and mirror (using rsync or lvm) to two 1(or 2?)TB sata drives in raid1. That would give you very fast storage, and a very reliable fallback. But that's just me.
11:31
<UtrinqueParatus>
sounds good
11:31
<Kyle__>
UtrinqueParatus: Or upping the number to 5x traiditional drives in raid5. That would help too...but that frist way gives better throughput.
11:32
<UtrinqueParatus>
where can i get some thin clients for ~100GBP?
11:33
<Kyle__>
Now that I have no idea. I'm using fat clients, and they were payed for in USD.
11:35
<UtrinqueParatus>
im going for a green angle here so presenting the energy savings aswell
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11:38
<Kyle__>
UtrinqueParatus: I dunno about thin clients, but having owned netbooks with via, intel and AMD chips, all of about the same clockspeed, I'd deffinately buy one powered by an intel atom.
11:38
<UtrinqueParatus>
yeah looking at the d510mo
11:39
around 11w
11:40
<Kyle__>
WOw. Nice. Heh, I wonder how it would stack up to the hyper thredded 3Ghz PIVs in my lab. Probably pretty well.
11:47
Hu. At least according to one benchmark (passmark), those are faster than what I use for fat clients. http://www.cpubenchmark.net/cpu_lookup.php?cpu=Intel+Atom+D510+%40+1.66GHz
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11:57
<LeonardoCabelo>
can anyone give a help please
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12:03
<LeonardoCabelo>
thks...
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12:31
<robehend1>
Say, is anyone using OpenOffice as a local app on Ubuntu LTSP?
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12:46
<hahlo>
I build fatclient with that howto https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/FatClients I allready had ltsp-standalone server, but now it doesn't work well user cannot sudo also network doesn't work
12:47
<alkisg>
hahlo: do you have a dual nic server?
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12:48
<hahlo>
I have wlan to internet yes
12:48
<alkisg>
If you use a dual nic setup, and the clients are "behind" your server, you may need ip forwarding: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/ThinClientHowtoNAT/
12:48
<Kyle__>
hahlo: for each thing (no sudo, no network) On the fat client, on the thin client or on the server
12:48
<alkisg>
About "sudo", what would you want to do with sudo on a fat client?
12:48
The network disk is read only...
12:48
<hahlo>
fatclient no sudo
12:48
<alkisg>
Right, no sudo. But what do you want sudo for?
12:49
<Kyle__>
hahlo: YOu need a user in the fat-client's /etc/passwd /etc/shadow and /etc/group, and for that user to be in the sudo group.
12:49
<hahlo>
ifconfig needed it
12:49
<Kyle__>
alkisg: I have a localadmin user so I can ssh in, sudo and test/fix/bounce boxes.
12:49* Kyle__ scratches his head
12:49
<Kyle__>
hahlo: ifconfig needed it?
12:49
<alkisg>
Kyle__: I have sch-scripts which gives me root access with screen from any client ;)
12:50
hahlo: you shouldn't change network settings on the client, you're supposed to do that on the server
12:50
<Kyle__>
More than one way to skin a cat. But really, you shouldn't skin them before cooking. The skin holds the flavor in.
12:50
<hahlo>
ok thin client before saw the internet
12:50
server has nat
12:50
<alkisg>
screen + socat == remote admins heaven
12:51
<Kyle__>
hahlo: Really nothing on the server (should have) changed other than a dhcpd.conf entry or two.
12:51
<alkisg>
hahlo: read that wiki page about dual nic setups
12:51
<hahlo>
ok thanks
12:51
<alkisg>
If you're running localapps or fat clients, the clients need to be able to access the internet directly or through NAT
12:51
<hahlo>
how do I adduser correctly for a fatclient?
12:51
<alkisg>
For thin clients without localapps this isn't needed as all apps run on the server
12:51
What do you mean? You use the existing users on the server...
12:52
<hahlo>
on server I can see ifconfig as user on fatclient I dont
12:52
<robehend1>
alkisg: You ever used OpenOffice as a local app?
12:52
<alkisg>
robehend1: no, I don't use localapps. I've used openoffice on fat clients.
12:53
<robehend1>
alkisg: Ah, ok. I'm trying to figure out why my localapps OpenOffice doesnt have spellcheck..thought english and french came by default
12:53
<hahlo>
on server I can sudo on fatclient I don't
12:53
<alkisg>
hahlo: usually, on fatclients you don't need to sudo. Anything you need sudo for is done *on the server*, not on fat clients
12:54
<hahlo>
but as thin client I could sudo
12:54
<alkisg>
robehend1: missing package? language support on the server installs spellchecking automatically, but it's not in "recommends", it's in "suggests", so it's not automatically installed in the chroot if you install openoffice
12:54
hahlo: yes, for apps that run on the server. Not on the fat client.
12:54
<robehend1>
alkisg: Ah, guess I'll need to track down what package that is. I figured it was something like that.
12:55
<alkisg>
hahlo: e.g. if you run synaptic from a thin client, you install packages on the server. If you run synaptic from a fat client, where would you install them? To the read-only network disk?
12:58
<Kyle__>
alkisg: It installs them to the local-copy of the fat-client image. More or less the changes are stored in ram (just like when a normal FS fills up). It's actually usefull when testing some things.
12:59
<alkisg>
Kyle__: I think hahlo is having trouble understanding the fat client concept, not trying to install a package to ram for testing :)
12:59
<Kyle__>
alkisg: Oh, good point :)
12:59
<alkisg>
I know that sudo on fat clients is *sometimes* useful, but I don't think that's the point here...
13:00
For troubleshooting, one can just get SCREEN_02=shell, he has root access from there, both on thin and on fat clients
13:00
<Kyle__>
Ok, reading the socat man page now. Never heard of this tool before actually.
13:01
<alkisg>
Kyle__: want a quick walkthrough or a test? It took me months to find the proper 2 commands... :D
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13:01
<Kyle__>
alkisg: WOuld love them.
13:01
<alkisg>
OK, let me look them up, install screen + socat in the meantime...
13:02
<Kyle__>
What do you mean install screen? Can you even _use_ a system without it?
13:02
<alkisg>
Heh :)
13:02
(08:07:44 PM) alkisg: remote pc: xterm -e socat tcp-listen:5500,keepalive=1 stdio,raw,echo=0
13:02
(08:07:44 PM) alkisg: local pc: socat SYSTEM:"sleep 1 && exec screen -x",pty,stderr tcp:server:5500 & exec xterm -e screen -l
13:03
Try that with localhost instead...
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13:04
<Kyle__>
k.
13:05
<robehend1>
Kyle__: When you've got a minute, I've got a few questions on your virtualbox setup
13:06
<Kyle__>
Sure. HOldon
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13:09
<Kyle__>
WTF? OK. The socat stuff is working, but very very strange...
13:10
<alkisg>
Kyle__: why?
13:11
I've put a menu for it in sch-scripts, it works fine for both root + client shells...
13:17
<Kyle__>
alkisg: It attached to the running screen session on my ocal machine, showing it in the remote machine's ssh session and locally.
13:18
<alkisg>
Kyle__: ah that command assumes that you don't have any other screen sessions running
13:18
You need to change the screen commands there to use named sessions
13:18
(or something similar, I'm no screen expert :))
13:18* Kyle__ nods
13:19
<Kyle__>
I had the direction reversed. I was expecting the exact opposit, but it's pretty cool either way.
13:20
<alkisg>
Right sorry exchanged the remote/local on the commands
13:22
<Kyle__>
Dont' sweat it. Still pretty cool.
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13:27
<Kyle__>
robehend1: What did you want to know about the setup?
13:27
<robehend1>
Kyle__: Probally just a bit more specifics on it. I'm intersted in replicating it so I could run my testing through the virtual windows enviroment
13:29
<Kyle__>
robehend1: Well, more or less, I made a complete windows VM, then distribute the vdi (disk image) and made it read only. Then I have a script that creates a new VM, using that read-only disk-image, that takes a snapshot at the end of the creation. Then everything that's changed ends up in that snapshot. I'll toss the scripts up on a webpage soon.
13:30
<robehend1>
Kyle__: Ah, that makes sense. So, when a client logs into the LDM window, are they presented with like, a "Pick your OS" window, or do they have to manually launch virtualbox and such
13:32
<Kyle__>
robehend1: Until this week, they selected the session from the LDM login manager. It worked but was clunky. I rolled out a little java gui this week. WIth that, they log in, and click "launch windowsxp", "launch FreeBSD", etc, or click on "Use host system" to use linux.
13:32
ACtually I"m goign to put the whole thing on a webpage soon.
13:32
<robehend1>
Kyle__: Ah, alright. Ill wait for that. I'm curious on how I could roll it out to my users, as they clamor to much for windows
13:32
<Kyle__>
It was written in java because my boss offered to write it, and it's his language of choice.
13:32
No problem :) I find it works quite well.
13:33
<robehend1>
Kyle__: how does windows work through the thin client enviro? speed wise?
13:33
<Kyle__>
robehend1: I'm using them on fat clients, but still, pretty good. If there's hardware virtualization support, very good.
13:34
robehend1: Right now we have WindowsXP, Windows7, WindowsServer2007, FreeBSD and Debian as VM choices in my labs.
13:36
On thin clients, assuming you had the memory & cores for the server to do it, I still think it would work pretty well. IIRC we ran about 8 VMs per core on test-boxes at my last gig, and they did fine.
13:36
Anyway, I gotta step out for a bit.
13:43
<robehend1>
Kyle__: thanks, ill have to see if some of my more beefy clients can handle it.
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14:03
<robehend1>
Probally the wrong place to ask this, but as I find alot of educators in here, I'm gonna let it out anyways. anyone looked at google apps for education?
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15:07
<sbalneav>
Wait, so did I read that right?
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15:07
<sbalneav>
Is ubuntu DROPPING xorg?
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15:15
<highvoltage>
sbalneav: eventually, yes
15:15
sbalneav: from what stgraber told me, it's going to suck for ltsp :-/
15:18
<alkisg>
"...we’re choosing to prioritize the quality of experience over those original values, like network transparency" wow...
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15:18
<alkisg>
At least compositing may provide for some better vnc-like apps...
15:21* alkisg thinks that's a good direction, hope it's also implemented + "marketed" nicely...
15:30
<sbalneav>
As far as I can see, wayland doesn't support remote terminals.
15:34
<alkisg>
It says it supports running X on it
15:34
<sbalneav>
If the Linux community in general decides to abandon X, and move to Wayland, then running LTSP becomes impossible, and I'll have to run desktop linuxs' with hard drives.
15:35
And if I have to look after 185 hard drives, I might as well look after 185 windows hard drives.
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15:35
<sbalneav>
So, in the short term, what it will mean for me is withdrawing from supporting Ubuntu, and moving back to Debian until they force me into Wayland.
15:35
at which point I move back to windows.
15:36
<alkisg>
Heh :) You'll still be able to run fat clients ;)
15:36
<sbalneav>
Phht, why would I waste my time?
15:37
I'd have to upgrade every single desktop I own.
15:37
They're not powerful enough to run as fat clients.
15:37
<alkisg>
In 5-6 years when that'll be ready? Won't you upgrade till then?
15:37
<sbalneav>
No
15:37
We ran our old desktops for years.
15:38
These ones still have years of use left in them for not.
15:38
now.
15:38
They're 1ghz machines with 1 gig of ram.
15:39
<alkisg>
Maybe some technology for remote wayland will emerge till then. Even with session pausing + resuming...
15:40
<sbalneav>
I won't hold my breath. GDM's hacked out remote display, not one single program gives two toots about how it works over remote display...
15:41
You think Wayland, which is geared to high end graphics display, is going to care at all about remote?
15:41* sbalneav shrugs
15:41
<sbalneav>
Way of the world I suppose.
15:42
I'll just have to hope that it takes more than 13 years for X to completely disappear
15:42
I'll be retired by then.
15:42
;)
15:42
<alkisg>
And you think retirement is going to get you off of floss development? :D
15:43
<sbalneav>
Well, if LTSP's untenable by that time, yeah. :)
15:44* alkisg logs that conversation and will bring it up in 15 years when sbalneav will lead the new LTSP-for-wayland project... :D
15:47
<sbalneav>
We'll see.
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16:08
<alkisg>
"mark says: There will certainly be network accessibility, just not network transparency of the display protocol itself."
16:24
<mistik1>
sbalneav: how goes it man
16:25
I may be comming to CA by the end of this month or early next
16:25
sbalneav: I'll be in Spruce Grove Alberta
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16:43
<sbalneav>
mistik1: Cool!
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16:43
<sbalneav>
Just a visit? Or staying?
16:45
<mistik1>
Just a visit
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20:05
<Jinxzs>
hello
20:05
anybody home?
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21:58
<chupacabra>
nope
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