IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.freenode.net (webchat)


Channel log from 6 August 2011   (all times are UTC)

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02:59
<bradn>
greetings, #ltsp! Quick question, maybe someone here knows something... is there a way to make firefox run on two displays at the same time from the same user?
03:03
<Damianos>
you mean like an extended desktop (2 monitors)?
03:04
<bradn>
no, LTSP setup with host as the main terminal and another client machine, but if the same user is logged into both terminals only one can run firefox
03:05
<Damianos>
ah yes...I had the same problem the other day. I don't know of a way to do that
03:05
<bradn>
it works out slick because all the files and email are the same from both access points, but kmail and firefox don't like running 2 copies at a time. kmail isn't a big deal because that can be manually closed, but firefox is messier because there might be a bunch of webpages open
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03:08
<Damianos>
why do you need the two sessions by the same user though? I'm not trying to be smart btw, it just that it sounds pretty important to you and I can't think of a situation that would require that
03:09
<bradn>
well the way it's set up, we've got the main machine in the house, and a workshop in the adjacent building
03:09
so it's nice to have access to the same stuff in both locations but it leads to situations where programs are open on both of them
03:10
<Damianos>
ok, gotcha
03:10
<bradn>
true though, most places like schools probably don't run into that much
03:11
in the process of upgrading from kubuntu 8.04 to 11.04 right now... in the beginning we used konqueror on 8.04 and that didn't have a limitation like firefox does
03:12
but as time went on konqueror became less and less useful on various sites, even on a fresh install with 11.04 the flash plugin crashes horribly in it
03:12
<Damianos>
Are you wanting to access the same stuff you had open at home while you're in the work area? Or are you just interested in opening a separate window?
03:13
<bradn>
just a separate window is enough
03:16
it'd be nice if it could use the same firefox profile... it seems the problem is it sees the other instance running but either its IPC doesn't work across displays or it's just not written to handle multiple windows split across displays (or both)
03:16
<Damianos>
read this: http://kb.mozillazine.org/Firefox_:_FAQs_:_Run_more_than_one_instance_in_Linux
03:17
that should solve it. Haven't tried it myself but it looks legit
03:18
here;s another way: http://www.callum-macdonald.com/about/faq/multiple-firefox-instances/
03:18
<bradn>
thanks for the links, checking 'em out...
03:19
<Damianos>
I'd try the second one first
03:19
seems less obtrusive
03:21
<bradn>
hmm, I wonder if using --no-remote to start the second instance but with the same profile is likely to cause problems?
03:25
<Damianos>
I couldn't tell you off hand. I'd expect it simply wouldn't let you start it
03:26
<bradn>
the manpage kinda makes it sound like it would work, at least it doesn't say they need to be different profiles
03:26
"Don't connect to any other running instances of firefox. Use this if you want to run firefox in an entirely new process. By default,
03:26
firefox will delegate a command to an already running instance."
03:26
<Damianos>
I'm going to try it now
03:26
booting a VM
03:26
<bradn>
k
03:29
if only firefox didn't pop up a message window when it occurred and instead returned an error code... could make a script to automatically start a new instance if needed
03:29
but then I wonder what happens to its IPC mechanism... would the original firefox still share processes on the first machine, or would the 2nd machine share processes at all?
03:33
<Damianos>
well i tried it by specifying "default" as the profile name and it threw the same error at me
03:34
well it said in the article that you could dupe your profile so I think that is your best bet
03:35
or if all your using it for is web browsing then perhaps VNC might be an alternative
03:41
<bradn>
hmm, alright
03:42
I'm wondering if there's a way to use 2 profiles with a wrapper script to pick the profile based on the display
03:42
<Damianos>
well changing the profile with profile manager seems to work
03:43
<bradn>
did you still have to use -no-remote?
03:44
<Damianos>
I did ssh with x forwarding so I just used ProfileManager's GUI
03:45
<bradn>
so you just ran it like "firefox -ProfileManager"
03:45
<Damianos>
yes
03:45
chose my profile from the list and hit "Start Firefox"
03:46
you'll have an untouched firefox
03:46
maybe if we can hunt down the folder where the profile files are stored, we could just do symlinks
03:46
<bradn>
interesting, I wonder if one still needs to do --no-remote with -P for profile selection...
03:46
if -P is enough, I should be able to make a wrapper script
03:47
<Damianos>
sounds good...sorry if my suggestions aren't very elegant. I'm still kind of new to Linux
03:48
<bradn>
lol no problem, actually I've been feeling stupid on this whole project
03:49
I'm used to gentoo, oddly enough, so the way ubuntu does things with an extra layer of management seems to throw me off every time
03:49
here I was trying to set up 11.04 with a static ip and turns out using the fancy gui tool isn't the right way to set it
03:50
<Damianos>
funny...I had the opposite experience
03:50
<bradn>
sure, it sets the IP, but not early enough in the boot sequence to make the ltsp scripts happy... finally realized I had to set it in /etc/network and then it worked
03:50
<Damianos>
you mean the DHCP server starting too late?
03:51
I had that problem too
03:51
<bradn>
I don't think it was starting at all for me, then I would manually start it
03:51
and then apparently I was missing the tftp server or something
03:52
<Damianos>
I tried to set up the interfaces via the config file and it screwed up the Wlan NIC
03:52
<bradn>
to make things more interesting I had an ip address conflict with an extra router we added, which strangely enough didn't fully prevent it from working
03:52
<Damianos>
I had to go to NetworkManager and it worked fine from there minus the DHCP
03:52
<bradn>
but tftp would only succeed on maybe 1/10 tries
03:52
hmm
03:53
I was using the kde network config thing, I'm not sure if it hooks in with networkmanager, but it seems aware of it being changed in /etc
03:53
or at least some other program managing it
03:53
<Damianos>
I'm not sure if NetworkManager is a Ubuntu thing or a Gnome thing
03:54
<bradn>
good question
03:55
google can answer that one... hosted on gnome.org so must be theirs
03:56
although it's present in kubuntu also so maybe it's an official thing for all ubuntu
04:01
one complaint for the updated software... kde4/qt4 seems a lot choppier over ltsp than 3.5 did
04:02
<Damianos>
I actually just found a very good candidate for my next LTSP deployment. It's called elementaryOS
04:02
it's very slick looking but extremely lightweight
04:03
<bradn>
hmm
04:03
<Damianos>
so far I like it a lot
04:03
elementaryos.org
04:03
I installed LTSP on it today
04:03
it works fine with the exception of the dock doesn't show up in the client right now
04:04
this is an extremely young fork of ubuntu
04:04
ISO is only 640MB
04:05
<bradn>
lol... but their discover page says "rock your dock out"
04:05
maybe they're cautioning... rock it too hard and it'll come out
04:05
<Damianos>
lol, yeah but I think right now they are just concentrating on traditional desktop use
04:06
LTSP is not usually the first priority for a distro
04:06
in any case for a 1.0 release it's pretty impressive
04:07
<bradn>
yeah it's nice to see ltsp supported as good as it is now
04:07
<Damianos>
I wouldn't put it in a production environment yet but I'm definitely watching it's progress
04:07
<bradn>
in the beginning it was a lot worse trying to make flash work with sound and get local devices to work...
04:07
<Damianos>
if only IT departments would be as supportive
04:08
<bradn>
at least we've never had a virus, never had data loss (helps having a single point to back up)
04:09
<Damianos>
I started tinkering with it to help my wife out. She's an elementary school music teacher and I salvaged 10 machines to use as clients. I'm providing a desktop and the IT guys are not willing to help out with a switch and are questioning why we want it in the first place
04:10
<bradn>
ahh, I see
04:11
<Damianos>
my technical background is with web development so I'm not a Unix geek but I learn quick
04:11
<bradn>
I've always wanted to set up a lab and demo it all working and everything and see if any businesses would be interested, I think it'd be fun admining stuff like this
04:11
<Damianos>
for sure
04:12
I just saw in England a games and toy developer is piloting a program for $25 PCs for education institutions
04:12
it's an arm processor with one end HDMI and the other USB input....if that thing had ethernet it would be the ultimate thin client
04:14
<bradn>
hmm, sounds kinda interesting
04:14
were the specs decent enough to really run an x server?
04:16
<Damianos>
http://www.geek.com/articles/games/game-developer-david-braben-creates-a-usb-stick-pc-for-25-2011055/
04:16
700mhz CPU
04:16
ARM
04:17
128MB RAM
04:17
runs OpenGL ES 2.0
04:17
1080p out of the HDMI
04:17
runs ubuntu
04:17
<bradn>
eek, 128 gets rough if you got a lot of programs open (or a particularly badly designed webpage in konqueror, at least on 3.5)
04:18
<Damianos>
well it's not perfect but if he did one with more ram and ethernet for $50....
04:18
lol
04:18
<bradn>
true
04:19
I liked the approach of small VESA mounted computer case on the back of a LCD
04:19
<Damianos>
Just saw this line in the article..."It also looks as though modules can be attached such as the 12MP camera seen in the image above."
04:19
<bradn>
unfortunately the cases and boards tend to get pricy
04:20
I wonder if that's just USB or what exactly
04:23
<Damianos>
dunno...but like I said before, more ram plus an ethernet module and build it into a 20" monitor...sell it for $120
04:24
<bradn>
it would have some uses
04:27
I wish more people developed for reduced spec machines... it's neat having stuff in that form factor that's worlds past what I was playing doom II on
04:27
software bloat... ugh.
04:29
anyway, I'm gonna get going, thanks for the help!
04:30
<Damianos>
g'night
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13:02
<Hyperbyte>
Andy my man. :-)
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14:21
<markit>
anyone using kde with ltsp?
14:22
<Hyperbyte>
.... !ask. ;-)
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15:06
<markit>
Hyperbyte: sorry, was away... what do you mean? you do?
15:06
(but ! is negation...)
15:06
<Hyperbyte>
!ask | echo markit
15:06
<ltsp>
markit ask: Don't ask to ask a question, simply ask it, and if someone knows the answer, they'll respond. Please hang around for at least 15 minutes after asking a question, as not everybody constantly monitors the channel..
15:07
<Hyperbyte>
That :-)
15:07
<markit>
ah, but this is a generical queston, just a "pool" :)
15:07
so that's the only whole question, lol
15:07* markit feels so lonely
15:07
<Hyperbyte>
So it's just for statistical purposes? :-) There's no KDE problem you need help with? :)
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15:34
<knipwim>
it would be interesting to know which window managers are used in ltsp deployments
15:35
<Damianos>
Can't speak for overall usage but I'm using Gnome
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15:37
<Hyperbyte>
<- Gnome
15:38
<knipwim>
fluxbox for me
15:39
<muppis>
Gnome.
15:43
<Hyperbyte>
Which one of the all window managers is closest to Windows (interface-wise) do you guys think?
15:43
-the
15:43* Hyperbyte never tried anything besides Gnome
15:44
<knipwim>
isn't that more like a theme issue?
15:44
<muppis>
More like usability.
15:47
<Damianos>
I think generally KDE is the most comfortable for a windows user to move to
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15:49
<Hyperbyte>
People adjusted pretty damn quickly when I deployed Gnome at the office... greatly surprised me. I'd expected more hassle and complaints, but I just said "tomorrow you all have a different system, you can find your programs by clicking the icon in the top left of you screen. good luck!"
15:49
Basically
15:49
And it worked.
15:49
<markit>
Hyperbyte: you must be really scaring
15:50
or be the boss
15:50
or be a serial killer no one wants to upset
15:50
<Hyperbyte>
Haha, neither of those I think. Well maybe the first a little. :-)
15:50
<Damianos>
well I'm sure the automatic weapon held to the kitten's head probably helped
15:50
jk
15:50
<markit>
people try to do things like they are used
15:51
<Hyperbyte>
I think it greatly helped that we were already using Thunderbird and Firefox on Windows. Those didn't change.
15:51
<markit>
i.e. a teacher told me "installing programs in linux is hard, you have to find it on internet, donwload them and when double click does not install"
15:51
Hyperbyte: if they use LibreOffice on windows, it helps too
15:52
<Hyperbyte>
Yeah, that one I forgot. :) LibreOffice, Thunderbird and Firefox.
15:52
<markit>
in fact is not a OS migration, is an entire sw ecosystem migration
15:52
Hyperbyte: lol, so they use Windows only for viruses?
15:52
<knipwim>
markit: teachers really shouldn't be allowed to install programs
15:52
<markit>
knipwim: of course, but is the teacher is helping me convince all the others, so I installed kubuntu on her laptop
15:53
and let her experiment :)
15:53
(but with CONSTANT help, when needed)
15:53
<Hyperbyte>
markit, six years ago, when I deployed Windows XP, the company wasn't ready for Linux. We still used a Microsoft Access database as our CRM. I've been completely rewriting that to PHP since, and now it is ready for Linux. :-)
15:53
<markit>
Hyperbyte: good shot
15:53
<Hyperbyte>
In fact we've been running LTSP for a month or two now. I still get a kick walking around the office seeing everybody use Gnome. =D
15:53
<markit>
btw, i think we are very weak on "branding"
15:54
Apple is very "visible"
15:54
M$ is
15:54
no one knows about GNU
15:54
nor is able to tell you are using it just looking at you
15:54
working on a laptop
15:54
but this is a different story than ltsp :)
15:55
I would like to have children go home and scream "I want GNU at home too"
15:55
or grow up and remember that they need a GNu laptop
15:55
<Damianos>
Gnu school computing
15:55
<markit>
and not go for apple-chains or M$-chains
15:56
<Damianos>
I think Android might be an angle to think about exploiting
15:56
<markit>
but teachers don't care about freedom, so the message will not pass
15:56
Damianos: android is almost proprietary
15:56
<Hyperbyte>
Regardless, I agree with Damianos.
15:56
<markit>
you can't select only free apps, and proprietary apps are encouraged
15:56
<Damianos>
do you have access to Android's source code?
15:56
<markit>
so having a "Free" app launcher does make no difference
15:56
Damianos: only the kernel and basic stuff
15:57
<Damianos>
still though...there is access and it is the linux kernel and people use it every day
15:57
<markit>
Free software could win with donations ($) and keeping license GPL, so who develops GPL code can build upon all the GPL work already done
15:57
<Damianos>
it is not this bad word like linux is
15:57
<Hyperbyte>
markit, Android does prove and show to the world that Unix based systems can kick the ass of any Mac and Windows based system if the right development is put behind it.
15:58
<markit>
Hyperbyte: it proves that if you surrender your freedom, you can have a percectly "almost proprietary" product that can compete
15:58
consider how strange is that
15:58
in many netbooks now
15:58
<Damianos>
there is no almost
15:58
either it is or it isn't
15:58
<markit>
you have Win7 OR android
15:58
while a GNU distro would be MUCH better
15:59
<knipwim>
but it proves a brand can exist which is not Mac or M$
15:59
<markit>
knipwim: that's true
15:59
but who can impose branding does not do to free users
15:59
and FSF is not very skilled in branding
15:59
take the GNU picture...
16:00
or the term "free" insteado of "freedom software" or better "software libre"
16:00
Linux? oh, it's freeware?
16:00
<Damianos>
the other thing that must be acknowledged is that Android came into it's own not only because of branding but because they focused on a market that was being ignored by computer/software companies
16:00
<knipwim>
windows' advantage is everything is windows, the kernel, the window manager, everything you see
16:01
<markit>
Damianos: I don't like apple because is not free, but I have to admit that iPhone was the real innovator
16:01
<knipwim>
in linux land everything is divided, different brands for every part
16:01
<markit>
knipwim: yes, in fact I don't know what stick put on my laptop
16:01
the GNU one? Debian one? The KDE one?
16:01
you maybe have the Kubuntu one or whatever else
16:02
<knipwim>
hard to market all those different ones
16:02
<markit>
so 10 GNU users don't count as much as 3 Apple ones
16:02
if you look at them at the restourant or airport
16:02
<Hyperbyte>
knipwim, I agree. One of the biggest problems of open source developers is the division between them... imagine if all open source developers had one idea, one vision, and all started working on it. You'd have the perfect OS in a year.
16:02
<markit>
Hyperbyte: define perfect :))
16:02
Hyperbyte: you are right, but in part
16:02
the "difference" is positive
16:02
what could be done better
16:03
is a single branding
16:03
a single symbol to show
16:03
a nice graphic with "GNU" as label
16:03
then you can use the kernel you want
16:03
the desktop you want
16:03
<Damianos>
markit: that is all really superficial
16:03
<markit>
but you tell the world that you are Free
16:03
Damianos: I know, but really counts
16:04
we talk with GNU users most of the time
16:04
<Damianos>
I think branding needs to start elsewhere
16:04
not with the pictures
16:04
<markit>
if you go around and tell about Free Softwae, 0.001% kwnows what you really mean
16:04
<knipwim>
markit: i agree, but it would be more a brand of an idea, made concrete by the various software you're using
16:04
<markit>
Damianos: pictures are important, don't understimate :)
16:04
<Damianos>
pick a target audience
16:04
that is the most importanta
16:04
<markit>
knipwim: yes, but this alone will facilitate a lot
16:05
<Damianos>
sometimes linux tries to be all things to everybody
16:05
<markit>
you will tell about free software associated with a brand/picture
16:05
then people will recognize the whole system
16:05
as a really cool idea
16:05
<knipwim>
and meybe more the idea of choice than free software
16:05
<markit>
instead of having the feeling that is just a mess
16:05
and not being able to undestand that if you use gnome, and me kde
16:06
we are using the same important thing
16:06
<knipwim>
like mac is also a fashion statement
16:06
<Damianos>
yes but linux will never have a great brand because the term "Linux" itself doesn't even refer to a unified thing
16:06
I think Ubuntu has started down the right path but is now straying
16:06
<markit>
GNU must be the brand, not "linux", and that's another big mistake/unfortunate fact
16:07
Damianos: ubuntu is going to build a "market" like android
16:07
killing freedom
16:07
<Hyperbyte>
markit, how does a market for applications kill freedom?
16:07
<markit>
Hyperbyte: because you inject proprietary software
16:07
<Hyperbyte>
Ubuntu already has it, sort of. The software center. Difference with Android market is that outside developers can put their applications in.
16:07
<markit>
easy to reach and install
16:08
Hyperbyte: they should leverage donations to Free software
16:08
with a "donation market"
16:08
if they want make money that way
16:08
freedom is not freedom of choice proprietary programs
16:08
is being free as a user
16:08
and using proprietary programs you surrender
16:09
also Free program developers are less motivated
16:09
because people don't need their programs since they can install the proprietary ones
16:09
<Hyperbyte>
Wow markit slow down take it easy. :)
16:09
<knipwim>
that's beside the point i think
16:09
<markit>
maybe for a small amount, or just craking them
16:09
Hyperbyte: hehehe, you are right, I very emotional involved on Free software
16:10
I really feel the situation being like an injustice that is dooming my future and my children's one
16:10
<Damianos>
If Gnu was a company what I would do is focus on one market segment alone and start there. For instance, creative professionals would be the ideal target right now. Have a distro like ubuntu that only focuses on underlying architecture and applications for creative professionals. Imagine There was an Adobe CS5 style distro that had a fantastic web IDE, photoshop killer, video editor and music software. I would tell every develop
16:10
focus on the photoshop killer and addon bundles for Gedit
16:10
<markit>
and more if we talk about software patents (better skip this subject)
16:10
<Damianos>
The timing would be perfect because final cut pro is very weak right now
16:11
<markit>
Damianos: yes, but gimp has 3 developers
16:11
<Hyperbyte>
So, ehm... guys... what about the weather? Are you guys having a good summer? :)
16:11
<Damianos>
Adobe got a kick in the pants from Apple and many web folks are sick of Avid,Adobe,Apple and M$
16:11
<markit>
free software users usually don't understand freedom, so they don't value it and nto donate
16:12
we must change the world :)
16:12
<knipwim>
markit: our company is
16:12
<markit>
Hyperbyte: we need your ideas and contributions, not weather information, lol
16:12
<knipwim>
markit: we made a selection of most valued free software to donate to
16:12
<markit>
knipwim: is donating money you mean?
16:12
<knipwim>
yes
16:12
<markit>
knipwim: kudos to you!!!
16:13
I do my best either
16:13
and I've convinced my children to donate to some free game they play
16:13
<knipwim>
i mean to say, it;s not hopeless
16:13
<markit>
knipwim: yes, but we are shy on this I think
16:13
<Damianos>
I think the whole linux space needs focus
16:13
<markit>
I mean, I've installed Ltsp in a school (for free)
16:13
then I'm doing in another
16:14
but this time I've listed the needed budget
16:14
<knipwim>
markit: true, linux users need to communicate more, and gloat to windows users :)
16:14
<markit>
for the server, switch, etc
16:14
<Damianos>
I'm installing LTSP in my wife's class and I'm getting all kinds of grief from the IT staff
16:14
<markit>
and put 3x100 euros neede in donation to free software
16:14
they saved > 1.000 euros in M$ license
16:15
so why not ask for a contribution?
16:15
fortunatly they agreed
16:15
<Damianos>
why don't you charge for the service and integrate a donation into the price
16:15
?
16:15
<markit>
Damianos: eh, your situation is different
16:15
Damianos: oh, is a tax matter
16:15
<Damianos>
why?
16:15
<markit>
if I charge 100 I pay 50% in taxes
16:15
<Damianos>
you can write it off no?
16:16
<markit>
if the school pays directly, no tax
16:16
Damianos: debian does not print invoices
16:16
for donations
16:16
<knipwim>
nice, blackmarket ltsp deployments :)
16:16
<Damianos>
you know the interesting thing about people and pricing
16:16
<markit>
lol
16:16
<Damianos>
people will take you seriously if you charge a lot of money but they won't if you give the same thing for free
16:16
<markit>
if I buy M$ os I can deduce, if I donate to KDE I can't
16:18
<Damianos>
there is always a way
16:18
<markit>
btw, interesting conversation
16:19
<Damianos>
I don't know markit...This will probably make you very angry but I honestly think there is a place for both proprietary and OSS...it doesn't have to be either or
16:19
<markit>
Damianos: in the world on in your pc?
16:19
<Damianos>
both
16:19
<markit>
well, the main problem is
16:19
that GNU has beem created to free the user
16:20
you can like it or not
16:20
if you don't, there is M$ or Apple
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16:20
<markit>
but now I feel that saying teh basic fact that you have to use free software to keep your freedom
16:20
<knipwim>
but to integrate, Gnu has to exist in a world where both are available
16:20
<markit>
people call me "integralist"
16:21
knipwim: my dream is that every sw is Free, but in the meanwhile you have to integrate, of course
16:21
back to freedom
16:21
I've seen people install whatever they like because don't know about freedom
16:21
expecialli in ubuntu postst of forums
16:21
they rant because "there is no photoshop"
16:21
someone is asking for "Nero" (sigh!!!)
16:22
etc.
16:22
<knipwim>
hmm, i think they install something because they want something to work,
16:22
freedom is not taken into account
16:22
<Damianos>
this comes back to what I spoke of earlier though
16:22
<markit>
so if you understand freedom, value it and want to hurt yourself you are free
16:22
but should never come like "the normal way" or the "more intelligent way"
16:23
knipwim: if I want something to eat
16:23
<Hyperbyte>
markit, if I want to hurt myself, I'll use Audacity rather than Adobe Audition for my radio production work. :-)
16:23
<Damianos>
don't market to the lowest common denominator. Go for professional users. M$ markets to corporate drones...Apple is now almost exclusively for the consumer. Gnu should go after the creative professionals
16:23
<Hyperbyte>
Some proprietary software has no good GNU alternatives.
16:23
<markit>
I don't eat what has no label and is not guaranteed to be ok
16:23
Damianos: creative professionals use Apple don't they?
16:23
Hyperbyte: ok, so donate and build
16:24
Hyperbyte: are those people ok in spending 1.400$ for photoshop
16:24
and donate NOTHING to gimp?
16:24
with much money you could pay full time developers
16:24
and all the world will be happy
16:25
that's why I say is important not using proprietary programs in GNU
16:25
because kills the push for a free alternative
16:25
<Damianos>
yes but people that invest in software are doing it with the idea of ROI...why should they invest money into R&D that will empower their competition?
16:25
<Lumiere>
because they know more about it
16:25
<Hyperbyte>
markit, no it doesn't. If that was the case, people wouldn't be using OpenOffice on Windows.
16:25
<Lumiere>
and provide a better Value Add
16:26
btw ROI is a horrible measure
16:26
Damianos: you come at this from a 'people are greedy' angle
16:26
<Damianos>
I'm not advocating it, I'm just illustrating the mindset of business oriented people that invest in software like photoshop
16:26
<markit>
Damianos: competitors, if are good players, will contribute themselves, and in any case you are ahead since you created the code, you manage the project, you can offer better consulting, etc
16:26
<Lumiere>
where the general point of the Open Source community is exactly the opposite
16:26
<Hyperbyte>
Meanwhile, I'm gonna have some dinner. Will you guys please remember that this discussion will not come to a good conclusion if you let it get overheated? :) Take care.
16:27
<Lumiere>
Hyperbyte: if it gets too bad
16:27
I op and deal with it
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16:27
<Hyperbyte>
Heheh, ah, you're op.
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16:27
<Lumiere>
too many Ls in here ;)
16:27
<Hyperbyte>
I don't think it'll go there though. :) Just saying you know, as interesting as the discussion is, it'll never come to a good conclusion.
16:27
<Lumiere>
yep
16:27
I have had to use op in here
16:28
maybe once a year
16:28
<Hyperbyte>
Either way, dinner. :)
16:28
<markit>
Hyperbyte: well, as I said, often feel alone and frustrated, knowing that there are other people that share my vision and can tell about different points of view and dig on the difficoulties is really good
16:29
btw, I'm italian, and I really I'm not fluent enough in english
16:29
<Lumiere>
You're doing pretty well ;)
16:29
<markit>
so I use very basic words and broken grammar
16:29
and also my brain get tired much sooner
16:30
so after a while I don't even find the right keys on the keyboard :)
16:30
<Damianos>
well my basic argument is that in order for OSS to flourish and conquer a market segment, proprietary software does not need to disappear. As far as making that happen, I would (as a potential contributor and as an end user) would really like to see something that really shines for creative professionals. Most of the pieces are there. The only thing keeping me from going Linux 100% is a photoshop replacement
16:31
<markit>
Damianos: agree
16:31
photoshop is like autocad
16:31
professionals spend HUGE money for autocad
16:31
since is "the standard" (at least here in italy)
16:32
but invest NOTHING in FreeCAD for instance
16:32
that's mad
16:32
<Damianos>
I taught an after school program at my wife's school last year...It was about using inkscape amnd they loved it
16:32
<markit>
but i've the feeling
16:32
that people are not aware
16:32
<Damianos>
I loved it too. I don't miss Iluustrator at all after digging into inkscape
16:32
<markit>
they thing FOSS = no price
16:32
and found a development = build a proprietary program you have to pay license for
16:33
they don't realize that FOSS = something you can change and improve yourself
16:33
directly or with your money
16:33
really is not so simple
16:33
is 20-30 years people only used proprietary sw and sow the propriatary model of sw business
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16:39
<Lumiere>
btw, there are multiple layers of 'creative professionals'
16:39
<Damianos>
well there are the graphics people (2D/3D) Video, Audio and Web
16:39
<Lumiere>
most of the very high end companies that do this use linux
16:40
<Damianos>
web designers in particular do both coding and graphics in various balances
16:41
I am a web guy and a musician. As a web person, I liked the mac systems but the whole html5 thing vs flash thing has left a sour taste in my mouth towards both apple and adobe
16:41
<Lumiere>
but they build their own graphics toolkit
16:41
and they don't like to share
16:42
<Damianos>
there's a millions of small time web guys like me out there though
16:42
<markit>
Damianos: btw, I'm trying to leard ruby on rails development
16:42
(never dev for web, I'm a former desktop proprietary dev with delphi)
16:42
<Lumiere>
The issue is
16:43
<Damianos>
the reason they don't share comes back to the whole ROI idea...again I don't advocate it but that's how people think out there
16:43
<markit>
Damianos: there is also the "free ride" stuff
16:43
<Lumiere>
Damianos: actually they do sell their stuff
16:43
<Damianos>
markit: not familiar with rails, I know actoinscript, javascript
16:43
<Lumiere>
but they sell it as a product
16:43
<Damianos>
right, like flash builder (aka eclipse)
16:44
<Lumiere>
btw, most photoshop users could do fine in gimp
16:44
<Damianos>
I don't like the UI...I should give it another spin
16:44* markit checks wikipedia... is not "free ride", but can't remember... is if you don't pay the bus ticket, you don't damage teh system that much and bus still will work and you have an advantage
16:44
<Damianos>
I haven't tried it in a while
16:45
<Lumiere>
see that's the thing
16:46
<markit>
found: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_rider_problem
16:47
<knipwim>
speaking of professionals, for research: Latex, R and Sweave
16:53
<Damianos>
documentation and a complete overhaul of the UI would do it for GIMP I think. One thing I really liked about Inkscape was that the tools were almost exactly the same, and the docs were great. They went out of their way to provide a chapter for people migrating from illustrator. How inkscape was different and what the inkscape way of doing things was. Those things sold me on inkscape
17:02
<Hyperbyte>
GIMP is complicated. So is Photoshop by the way, just a little bit less and there's more online tutorials I think.
17:03
<- doesn't like either of them
17:05
<markit>
I've to leave, by and thanks
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17:05
<Damianos>
have a good night markit
17:05
<Hyperbyte>
:)
17:05
Damianos, I liked your earlier article about the $25 USB stick-size PC's.
17:06
<Damianos>
oh yeah...the whole web cam module addon suggests modularity which means it might be possible to add ethernet
17:06
pity the developer is limiting it's scope to computer science in schools
17:07
<Hyperbyte>
Actually, did you watch the video for the article?
17:07
<Damianos>
yes
17:07
<Hyperbyte>
He said students could use it for Facebook and Twitter as well.
17:07
Didn't he?
17:07
<Damianos>
I think so but I don't see how
17:08
<Hyperbyte>
I mean, what's the point for a camera addon if it doesn't have any way of transferring the image away from the device?
17:08
<Damianos>
is there a wire less or bluetooth adapter builtin?
17:08
<Hyperbyte>
I have no idea. Didn't find that either, but it looks like networking is covered somehow.
17:08
<Damianos>
the specs do not suggest any sort of network compatibility
17:09
<Hyperbyte>
Then what's the point of a camera? :-)
17:09
<Damianos>
to capture the look on your face when it actually works
17:09
?
17:09
<Hyperbyte>
Heh
17:10
But not publish it online, right? ;-) Makes no sense. Plus I don't think something like that would become popular with students if they couldn't do social networking on it
17:10
<Damianos>
they won't be able to do social networking on it
17:10
at least not at school...every school IT department has anything like that blocked
17:11
<Hyperbyte>
That's besides the point man. :\
17:11
<Damianos>
there are only two institutions that I know of that block google....China and the US department of education
17:12
did you read about the new ubuntu off shoot I was testing out
17:12
?
17:12
elementaryOS?
17:13
it looks real slick and performs really well
17:14
I installed LTSP on it and it works with the exception of Docky not showing up on screen (although I checked and it is running)
17:14
<Hyperbyte>
A website without pretty screenshots? :(
17:14
<Damianos>
go to the link on top that says Discover
17:16
<Hyperbyte>
mhm
17:16
Looks okay.. I'm happy with Ubuntu though. :)
17:16
Well Edubuntu actually
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17:17
<Damianos>
I'm ok with Edubuntu as well, I'm always open to other options though. Besides, in the end it's all just ubuntu isn't it?
17:18
different gnome and x tweaks but everything should still be compatible
17:22
Anyway, EOS is appealing simply because it comes with most of the same UI tweaks that I usually do by default. That plus I can still install any of the same software that comes with Edubuntu
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22:35
<Hyperbyte>
You're up late. :)
22:41* alkisg just got back from the first half of vacations :)
22:41
<alkisg>
How's your server doing?
22:48
<Hyperbyte>
To be honest
22:48
Haven't checked :)
22:49
When I get done with a 60 hour workweek, I'm done. =)
22:49
Looks okay though. :)
22:53
<alkisg>
:)
22:54
<Hyperbyte>
:)
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