IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.freenode.net (webchat)


Channel log from 2 April 2007   (all times are UTC)

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02:10
<pipedrea1>
ja
02:10
lib/win 2
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04:57
<ogra>
jammcq, see my comment on https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ltsp/+bug/97456, please test with the new version (should be ready for download in some hours)
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05:31
<envite>
Hello all from Spain
05:31
Hola a todos desde España
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05:36
<FuL|OUT>
hey
05:41
ltsp is lookin for X11R6 dir to start X
05:41
don't ha ve it
05:41
i'm using gentoo
05:42
nevermind
05:42
:)
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06:43
<FuL|OUT>
anyone knows why ltsp keeps saying that /usr/X11R6/bin/Xorg doesn't exist ?
06:44
<envite>
it does not need to search for that
06:44
does you have any old X packages installed?
06:44
<FuL|OUT>
nop
06:44
Xorg
06:45
<envite>
hm
06:45
try making a symlink
06:46
<FuL|OUT>
it does exist
06:46
on the server
06:46
the client can't find it
06:46
<envite>
heyheyhey
06:46
where on the server?
06:46
<FuL|OUT>
/usr/X11R6/bin/Xorg
06:46
<ogra>
which ltsp are you running there ?
06:47
<FuL|OUT>
4.2
06:47
on a gentoo
06:47
<envite>
but the client does not use that at all!
06:47
<ogra>
in ltsp5 there is no need for X at all on the server, in 4.2 you need a running gdm on the server to connect to
06:47
<FuL|OUT>
net-misc/ltsp-4.2-r1
06:47
<envite>
EVERYTHING the client uses is under /opt/ltsp
06:47
<ogra>
(gdm exposes the XDMCP access to the world)
06:47
<FuL|OUT>
gdm ?
06:47
can't it be kdm ?
06:47
<ogra>
(4.2 is xdmcp only)
06:48
<envite>
it CAN be kdm, but certain KDM versions does not allow xdmcp
06:48
<ogra>
any login manager that can do xdmcp will work
06:48
right, you're on te safe side with gdm ... or with ltsp5 :)
06:49
<envite>
but, doublecheck if /usr/X11R6/bin/Xorg exists for the client
06:49
that is
06:49
under /opt/ltsp
06:49
it must be /opt/ltsp/i386/usr/X11R6/bin/Xorg
06:50
you do not have a problem with gdm/kdm yet
06:51
you can say your problem is that after you have a X mouse cursor on a gray screen ;)
06:51
before that, your problem is X itself
06:51
<ogra>
right
06:51
if you see an error about Xorg missing during client boot its surely unrelated to the server
06:52
then i'd say your client chroot setup is gone wrong
06:56
<FuL|OUT>
that client doesn't hav eit
06:56
weird
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07:03
<FuL|OUT>
it's on boot after the card scan
07:03
it can't find the Xorg
07:03
the client doesn't have that dir
07:03
a symlink ?
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07:06
<SiCk>
hey everyone/anyone... i'm having a bit of trouble getting a thin-client to autologin... i've set everything up , config derivative for a gdm.conf file and the user has a disabled password etc... but still it asks for a login... any ideas?
07:07
<envite>
FuL|OUT: yes
07:07
try it
07:07
SiCk: sorry, that's not my field :(
07:07
<SiCk>
darn.
07:08
i gotta run, really hungry! back soon, hope someone can help at some point tho ugh driving me insane.
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07:11
<Blinny>
SiCk: A thread is being discussed on k12ltsp-users. Peter Scheie put up a great wiki entry here: http://k12ltsp.org/mediawiki/index.php/A_more_complete_How-To_for_setting_up_autologin_of_clients_using_Gnome_%26_GDM
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08:44
<jammcq>
g'morning kids
08:44
<envite>
afternoon here, jammcq
08:45
:)
08:45
<Blinny>
Howdy
08:45
<ogra>
yo jammcq
08:45
jammcq, seen my above comment ?
08:45
<jammcq>
umm, nope
08:46
I saw your comments on launchpad tho
08:46
does that count?
08:46
<ogra>
jammcq, see my comment on https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ltsp/+bug/97456, please test with the new version (should be ready for download in some hours)
08:46
yeah
08:46
<jammcq>
yep
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08:46
<ogra>
thats enough :)
08:46
<jammcq>
gonna build a new chroot in a few minutes
08:46
<ogra>
i didnt do much but foud a lot of stuff we could move out of the way
08:46
<jammcq>
just as soon as my laptop finishes doing it's fsck after 38 boots
08:47
ogra: I built a few kernels myself, but it didn't help
08:47
<ogra>
nobody needs localdev sound and printer support before X is up :)
08:47
<jammcq>
I couldn't figure out how to build a kernel with DEBUG turned off. each time I tried, I got an error about 'Module gone missing: dccp_probe'
08:47
<ogra>
well, i dont think we ca do much about the kernel this late in te release
08:47
so i concentrated on the achievable things for feisty for now
08:48
which is shufflg code in scripts
08:48
i still dont understand where that sleep call came from ...
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08:48
<ogra>
its directly below a waitpid ... which makes the script stop anyway until the child is done
08:48
<jammcq>
heh
08:49
<ogra>
i'll do some straceig with ldm later on as well
08:49
<jammcq>
do I need to build a whole new chroot?
08:49
<ogra>
i start to suspect that the ldm script itself loads way to much crap
08:49
would be nice if you could, just to prove its cean
08:49
*clean
08:49
<jammcq>
no prob
08:49
just wondered what the proper way was
08:49
<ogra>
also make sure to be up to date with ltspserver first :)
08:50
*ltsp-server
08:50
<jammcq>
also, I noticed that wsize=262144,rsize=262144
08:50
where does that get set?
08:50
<ogra>
ugh
08:50
that should be 2084 be default or so
08:50
*by
08:50
<jammcq>
it's the same for debian too
08:50
<ogra>
its set at compile time in the kernel i suppose
08:51
<jammcq>
and 'proto=tcp' is the default
08:51
hmm
08:51
<ogra>
general default
08:51
<jammcq>
interesting
08:51
<ogra>
where did you find that ?
08:51
<jammcq>
seems like WAY TOO HIGH of a nfs blocksize
08:51
I set SCREEN_07=shell
08:51
and then ran 'mount | head'
08:51
and saw how the / was being mounted
08:51
<ogra>
ah, and there you see these values ? specifically proto ?
08:51
<jammcq>
yep
08:52
<ogra>
i dont remember seeinfg proto there
08:52
at least with 2.6.20-13
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08:53
<jammcq>
here's what it shows:
08:53
ro,vers=3,rsize=262144,wsize=262144,hard,nolock,proto=tcp,timeo=7,retrans=3,sec=sys,addr=192.168.1.1
08:53
<ogra>
retrans=3 ?
08:53
that cant be our initramfs
08:53
<jammcq>
yes
08:53
it is
08:53
<ogra>
retrans is explicitly set to 10
08:53
<jammcq>
and it's the same for debian too
08:53
it's being overridden somewhere
08:54
and if I set: NFSOPTS="-o rsize=8192,wsize=8192" in the pxelinux.cfg/default file, it definately changes the rsize and wsize
08:54
<ogra>
only if you set NFSOPTS anywhere
08:54
<jammcq>
but it doesn't seem to make a difference on speed
08:55
<ogra>
elseit will use:
08:55
<jammcq>
try it yourself.
08:55
<ogra>
if [ -z "${NFSOPTS}" ]; then
08:55
NFSOPTS="-o retrans=10"
08:55
fi
08:55
<jammcq>
I KNOW what the code says to do, i'm telling you what's really happening
08:55
<ogra>
so something is wrong here
08:55
<jammcq>
I wanted to try proto=udp, but couldn't figure out where to set it
08:56
<ogra>
well, usually in NFSOPTS
08:56
but i think nfsmount doest understand proto
08:56
<jammcq>
"-o wsize=8192,rsize=8192,proto=udp" gave me an error about wanting an address
08:56
<ogra>
(thats what we found out o friday, remember ?)
08:56
<jammcq>
yep
08:56
so, something's crazy there
08:56
<ogra>
i thin the whole nfs script in initramfs needs a very deep look
08:57
something to schedule for UDS
08:57
<jammcq>
it's confusing
08:57
yep
08:57* jammcq has to get on a conf call in 3 minutes
08:58
<ogra>
see you later then ...
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09:42
<petre>
morning all
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09:50
<jammcq>
ogra: still got a problem with ltsp-update-kernels :(
09:50
if you have a ppc chroot, ltsp-update-kernels dies, cuz there's already symlinks for yaboot
09:51
and when ltsp-update-kernels dies, that causes ltsp-build-client to die
09:51
<cliebow_>
hmmm'
09:52
<jammcq>
and, as we learned a few weeks ago, we don't even need the symlinks for yaboot
09:54
<ogra>
i dont have a bug about that
09:54
<jammcq>
yeah, that's cuz I didn't create one
09:54
I'll do it now
09:55
<ogra>
thanks
09:55
move the ppc chroot out of /opt/ltsp to test properly i'd suggest
09:55
<jammcq>
yep, that's zackly what I just did
09:56
and ltsp-update-kernels doesn't complain anymore
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09:57
<jammcq>
ogra: where do I go to create a new bug?
09:57
<ogra>
https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ltsp/+filebug
09:57
or so
09:58
<cliebow_>
https://bugs.launchpad.net/
09:58
whoops
09:59
<ogra>
a log of the error woud be ice
09:59
*nice as well
09:59
<jammcq>
I'll even include the patch
10:00
<ogra>
yay, thanks
10:00
<tovella>
i want to continue testing feisty, but pulseaudio has not been working on my thin clients. how can i switch back to whatever sound system was used with edgy?
10:02
*sorry, wrong channel.
10:03
<ogra>
tovella, well, either is good :)
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10:12
<FuL|OUT>
still got the same error
10:12
can't find
10:12
/usr/X11R6/bin/Xorg
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10:36
<blinky_ghost>
hi, can anybody tell me why doesn't localdev work on kubuntu, using ltsp5?
10:37
<ogra>
blinky_ghost, it does ?
10:37
at least here
10:38
<blinky_ghost>
when i use gnome, the localdev works, if i use kde, it doesn't :(
10:38
<ogra>
jammcq, thats not a proper patch ... that would disable the link creation completely, no ?
10:38
blinky_ghost, hmm, the devices should still show up under /media/$USER
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10:38
<ogra>
i know KDE did no integration work for it yet
10:39
but on a device level it should work as in gnome
10:42
<blinky_ghost>
ogra, you're right, it just doesn't appear the link on the desktop, thanks
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10:43
<ogra>
blinky_ghost, you could extend the ltspfsmounter script on the server to do that (eve though the proper fix will be to create virtual hal devices, which i'm planning for feisty+1 or +2)
10:44
<blinky_ghost>
ok. can you tell me if on feisty will booting be faster? it takes a lot of time for terminals to boot now
10:45
<ogra>
i just committed a bunch of changes to speed up booting
10:45
but we will have a real profiling session in may so the major speedups wil be in feisty+1
10:46
(the changes i did for feisty were rather on the bootscript area, but there are more essential things to speed up)
10:47
<vagrantc>
ogra: does ubuntu have xen enabled kernels by default?
10:47
<blinky_ghost>
cool :)
10:48
<ogra>
yes, sadly
10:48
<cliebow__>
Woo..my 200 mhz clients in 4.2 boot in less than 3 seconds
10:48
<ogra>
vagrantc, we'll have to have a -ltps kernel next release i think -...
10:48* vagrantc wonders if that's partly to blame for the slowdown
10:48
<vagrantc>
ogra: gross :(
10:48
<ogra>
*-ltsp ideed
10:48
well, we wont need SMP we wont need a lot of other stuff
10:48
<vagrantc>
it's true...
10:49
<ogra>
the speed issues can be solved more properly etc
10:49
<vagrantc>
but you have a -386 kernel ... there are no 386/486 systems that support standard SMP anyways
10:49
<ogra>
i can shuffle around script snippets over and over but the only real speedup will be through the kernel
10:50
debian/config/i386/config.386:CONFIG_BROKEN_ON_SMP=y
10:50
debian/config/i386/config.386:# CONFIG_SMP is not set
10:50
hmm, right
10:50
well, i still think we'll fid a lot places for speeding up
10:51
<vagrantc>
LDM seems to be the biggest slowdown...
10:51
<ogra>
intrestingly droppinf the greeter doest change *anything*
10:51
*doesnt
10:51
<vagrantc>
:(
10:51
<ogra>
i always have the same delay between starting X and bringing up the greeter
10:52
eve if i comment out all xauth code ... (which sits between X and greeter in the code) i dont see *any* speed differece
10:52
<blinky_ghost>
cliebow, I have this epatec 2300 terminal 200mhz that it takes about 5 minutes to boot
10:52
<ogra>
i suspect python is loading the whole of site-packages
10:52
<cliebow__>
blinky_ghost, that is in 4.2 or 5
10:52
<ogra>
cliebow__, surely not 4.2 :)
10:53
<blinky_ghost>
cliebow, 5, on 4.2 is fast as hell, about 30 seconds
10:53
<ogra>
vagrantc, i guess we'll have to rewrite /usr/sbin/ldm :(
10:53
<cliebow__>
well myy clients are too challenged to run the big rig
10:53* ogra wrote a C based greeter over the weekend
10:53
<vagrantc>
ogra: well, i guess so.
10:54
<cliebow__>
and most wont even take a 2.6 kernel
10:54
<ogra>
thats odd
10:54
<cliebow__>
well they arenetvista
10:54
<ogra>
not eve if you shrink it down ?
10:55
<cliebow__>
i cut one down to 3.6 meg..
10:55
the provided kernel for em is 1.8 meg
10:55
uncompressed ernel
10:55
ive tried all sorts of stuff as has ranger pb who is at ibm
10:56
<jammcq>
blinky_ghost: welcome to the club
10:56
<blinky_ghost>
it's really slow on the "setting up LTSP client"
10:57
<ogra>
thats fixed i feisty
10:57
at least most of it
10:57
the changes should shove off about a third of the edgy time from ltsp-client-setup
10:58
vagrantc, i moved sound, localdev and printers from tsp-client-setup to ltsp-client btw
10:58
so it starts after X
10:58
<FuL|OUT>
i can boot on a shell in the client but can't use x server
10:58
:|
10:59
<vagrantc>
ogra: hmmm... so that stuff could be broken while ldm is initializing, no?
10:59
<ogra>
be broken ?
10:59
<vagrantc>
well, if it's not set up... it's theoretically possible that it wouldn't be configured by the time a user logs in... ?
10:59
<ogra>
ldm doesnt care if the helperscripts run
10:59
<vagrantc>
ok...
11:00
<blinky_ghost>
jammcq thanks :)
11:00
<ogra>
and i doubt even with a C gui we'll get ldm speedy enough to create a race
11:00
<jammcq>
blinky_ghost: see this page:https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ltsp/+bug/97456
11:00
<vagrantc>
just a consideration
11:00
<jammcq>
we're working very hard right now, to fix it
11:00
<ogra>
well, at least what we ca in the last hours where the archive is ope for upoads
11:00
*ca
11:00
*can
11:01
<jammcq>
ogra: eTyack proved last week that edgy boots a e2300 faster than feisty
11:01* ogra glares at his n key
11:01
<cliebow_>
poor ogra..beset on all sides
11:01
<ogra>
jammcq, thats fine, but still the archive will be closed soon ...
11:01
this week at least
11:02
jammcq, so any opinion about the patch ?
11:02
<jammcq>
which archve are you talking about?
11:02
i'm testing right this second
11:02
<ogra>
the ubuntu package archive
11:02
jammcq, i'm talking about my question about the yaboot thing
11:03
<jammcq>
oh, didn't see it
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11:03
<ogra>
<ogra> jammcq, thats not a proper patch ... that would disable the link creation completely, no ?
11:03
<jammcq>
that's correct
11:03
we DO NOT NEED the symlinks
11:03
that's what my comments said
11:03
<ogra>
ok
11:04
<jammcq>
so it is proper, I think
11:04
<ogra>
if you are 100% positive about it
11:04
<jammcq>
especially since it reduces code size
11:04
<ogra>
then i' fine
11:04
*i'm
11:04
<jammcq>
cliebow_: we confirmed we don't need symlinks for yaboot, right?
11:04
<cliebow__>
it can sit anywhere..
11:04
<ogra>
ok
11:04
<cliebow__>
as long as dhcpd points to it
11:04
<ogra>
i know there was a fix but i didnt dig deeper
11:05
jammcq, ok, applied locally
11:05
<cliebow__>
i could try it where you'd like its final resting lace should be
11:05
with a p
11:07* vagrantc wonders whats going on with everybody's keys today
11:07
<cliebow__>
this wireless card drives me stark raving crazy mad nutsy bowow
11:07
mine is permanent..and it is not the keys
11:08
<jammcq>
ogra: congrats.... you've shaved 10 seconds off the boot time :)
11:08
<ogra>
yay
11:08
still not much
11:08
<jammcq>
so, instead of 4:45, it now boots in 4:35
11:08
<ogra>
but i would have been stunned if it had no effect
11:08
<jammcq>
yeah, me too
11:08
or negative effect
11:09
<ogra>
5 secs from ldm and 5 for moving localdev, printing, sound
11:09
switch off NBD in your lts.conf and check if that speeds up more ... if so i can drop it from the default
11:10
<jammcq>
k
11:10
<ogra>
jammcq, ok, BenC just agreed that we'll talk about an -ltsp flavor at UDS :)
11:11
which means i'll have to become a kernel maintainer :(
11:11
*SIGH*
11:12* ogra would love to see a bootchart of ltsp5 vs ltsp 4.2 on the eBox 2300 ....
11:13
<ogra>
but i bet bootchart would just kill it completely during boot
11:13
<jammcq>
heh, by the time bootchart is initialized on LTSP-5, the user would be already logged in on ltsp-4.2
11:13
<ogra>
not that i dot trust your stopwatch
11:13
*dont
11:13
<jammcq>
ogra: how can I build a kernel with DEBUG turned off ?
11:13
I tried setting CONFIG_DEBUG_KERNEL=n
11:13
but it failed after about 40 minutes
11:13
<ogra>
jammcq, thats wrong ...
11:14
<jammcq>
obviously
11:14
<ogra>
but i'm not sure whats the proper value
11:14
<jammcq>
well, I also tried: # CONFIG_DEBUG_KERNEL is not set
11:14
<ogra>
#ubuntu-kernel might know
11:14
<jammcq>
same problem
11:14
i'll ask there
11:14
<ogra>
did you chane it i debian/config/i386/ ?
11:14
*change
11:22
<jammcq>
ogra: yep
11:24
<ogra>
and ran updateconfigs
11:24
what did the kernel team say ?
11:28
<jammcq>
no answer from the kernel guys yet
11:28
and yes, i ran updateconfigs
11:28
<ogra>
yeah, i just joined ...
11:29
<jammcq>
yeah, you joined about 2 seconds after I posted my question
11:29
<ogra>
heh
11:29
bad timing
11:29
<cliebow_>
boot for an g4 ibook is 150 seconds..20 seconds post 30 seconds it loads yaboot..at 50 seconds nfe-premoutn at 100 seconds init-bottom an x aappears at 135 and login screen at 150
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11:30
<sbalneav>
Morning all
11:30
<jammcq>
!s
11:30
<ogra>
!sbalneav
11:30
<ltspbot>
jammcq: "s" is Scotty!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
11:30
ogra: "sbalneav" is Scotty !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
11:31
<ogra>
hehg
11:31
<sbalneav>
hahaha
11:31
<cliebow_>
that is ltsp-5.0.5
11:31
!j
11:31
<ltspbot>
cliebow_: "j" is (#1) jammcq!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, or (#2) jstraw!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, or (#3) jammcq!!!!!!!!!!!!
11:31
<cliebow_>
there
11:32
<ogra>
cliebow_, 100 secs just to run the initramfs ?
11:32
whee
11:32
<cliebow_>
woohoo! Gnome wasnt built in a day
11:33
this Is my old Sony on a crossover to a g4
11:34
<jammcq>
ogra: i've been checking for full-duplex, and that seems fine
11:34cliebow__ has quit IRC
11:34
<ogra>
jammcq, yes, i see it in my syslogs (and in yours)
11:34
<cliebow_>
jammcq:btw..this is with yaboot and yaboot.conf in /var/lib/tftpboot/ltsp/powerpc/
11:34gdi2k_ has joined #ltsp
11:35
<ogra>
cool
11:36
<cliebow_>
ogra:how is vci set in initramfs?any way to change it on a powerpc so it can be used to differentiate root-path?
11:37
<ogra>
cliebow_, less /usr/share/initramfs-tools/scripts/nfs
11:37
<cliebow_>
gotcha
11:37
<ogra>
thats how its done ... :)
11:38ernierasta has left #ltsp
11:39
<ogra>
if you can find out how we get the info from dhcp into that script we can rewrite uit
11:44
<jammcq>
ogra: when building a kernel, how can I change the name? something other than '-ref' ?
11:44
<ogra>
there is a config option ...
11:44
extraversion or so
11:45
<jammcq>
in the config fiel?
11:45
<cliebow_>
minor detail..i just saw it had changed from d-i to (gd gnome-settings-daemon!!) ....now my Sony is hosed
11:45
<jammcq>
i've done it in Makefile in the past, but that's not where it's drawing it from here
11:46
<ogra>
cliebow, ? what has changed from d-i to g-s-d ?
11:46
<blinky_ghost>
ogra, if I try to use SCREEN_02=startx to logon on the server, fuse doesn't work, can you tell me why?
11:47
<cliebow_>
the vendor encapsulated options field was at one time d-i..it has changed..but cant get wireshark running..ahh here it comes
11:47
<vagrantc>
blinky_ghost: ltspfs doesn't work with XDMCP
11:47
<ogra>
blinky_ghost, because we didnt add support fro xdmcp
11:47
<vagrantc>
sort of
11:47
<ogra>
sbalneav is working on a fix for feisty +1 or ü2
11:47
*+2
11:48
<sbalneav>
Feisty + 1
11:49
<cliebow_>
yeah..option 60 changed from d-i to Linux ipconfig"
11:50
i assume for both i386 and ppc initramfs
11:50
<ogra>
cliebow_, ahh .... in my world d-i means debian installer ...
11:50
<cliebow_>
heh..i think i asked this before..
11:58edgarin has joined #ltsp
12:02
<FuL|OUT>
have mouse but X is black and white
12:02
:|
12:03
<ogra>
start a logi manager with xdmcp enabled on your server
12:03
*login
12:07
<FuL|OUT>
i can startx now
12:07
perhaps need a config specific for that client
12:09
<ogra>
start a login manager with xdmcp enabled on your server
12:09
and see the wiki, search for grey or gray screen
12:12
<cliebow_>
!grayscreen
12:12
<ltspbot>
cliebow_: "grayscreen" is No login, and only a grey screen? See http://wiki.ltsp.org/twiki/bin/view/Ltsp/Troubleshooting-GrayScreen#GDM
12:12
<ogra>
:)
12:12
<cliebow_>
8~)
12:12gdi2k_ has quit IRC
12:18
<FuL|OUT>
ok thk alot
12:18
it seems to work now
12:18
:)
12:18
humm
12:18
any way to share a home on the client
12:18
using the nfs
12:18
?
12:21sgonzalez has joined #ltsp
12:22
<FuL|OUT>
humm
12:22
it worked
12:22
once
12:22
when the server reboot
12:22
it stayed the same
12:22
humm
12:29
<sgonzalez>
My first post here. Let me know any faux pas...
12:29
<jammcq>
sgonzalez: well, so far, so good
12:30
<sgonzalez>
I have an HP2430 that keeps freezing up. I'm using Ubuntu 6.06 with LTSP on it. Sometimes pauses. Sometimes just refuses to play.
12:30petre has quit IRC
12:30
<sgonzalez>
Can sometimes unpause. Sometimes need a cupsys restart. Any ideas why? It will, at the same time, work fine with Windows network.
12:31
<jammcq>
how is the HP connected to the server?
12:31FuL|OUT has quit IRC
12:31
<sgonzalez>
Ethernet.
12:32
<jammcq>
prolly #ubuntu is where you need to be asking that question. it's really got nothing to do with thin clients
12:32
<sgonzalez>
ok. thanks. is that part of freenode too?
12:32
<jammcq>
yep
12:35sgonzalez has quit IRC
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12:48
<metztlixictli>
se vagrantc
12:48
hi
12:48
i have problem with client video card sis630
12:48
no run X
12:50
ping edgarin
12:52vagrantc has quit IRC
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13:02vagrantc has joined #ltsp
13:05* kaminski-ltsp-br is away: home
13:07blinky_ghost has quit IRC
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14:02
<pscheie>
sbalneav: ping
14:03
<sbalneav>
pscheie: pong
14:04
<pscheie>
what would be the effect of commenting out the floppy lines in ltps-device.sh?
14:04
<sbalneav>
I dunno. Why don't you try it and see? :)
14:05
<pscheie>
okay, I will
14:05
<sbalneav>
Off the top of my head, I'd say "disable the floppy bits", I don't think I'm doing anything there that would affect things lower down.
14:05
<pscheie>
(gotta pull my laptop out of the bag and turn it on
14:05
<sbalneav>
Always make a backup copy :)
14:06
<pscheie>
I was thinking of just pounding out the floppy lines in the case statement, around line 88
14:11joebob777as7 has quit IRC
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14:27
<cliebow_>
while the whole damn country is in Seville I think i'll do a little looting and pillaging
14:29
<ogra>
just join us and have some tapas ;)
14:31
<cliebow_>
that would be a solution8~)
14:34cliebow_ has quit IRC
14:39
<dem>
jim, i was thinking of the load balancing (and i got a simple server component of it done already)
14:39
but i've scratched my head and it seams like there's no simple way of doing it at (or right before) login time
14:40
since when we pick it at X server launch time, many of the clients will sit there for a day or so before some one logs in
14:40
<vagrantc>
that's where something like LDM comes in handy, as the login screen runs locally ...
14:41
so you could load-balance at login time...
14:41
not that it supports that at the moment... but... :)
14:41
i've often wondered if you couldn't write an X application that talks the XDMCP protocol, but runs locally...
14:41
<ogra>
pfft, trivial
14:41
<dem>
yeah, except we'd rather run gdm... because we can still give people a choice of which server they want to use (ultimatly)
14:42
<ogra>
(not the xdmcp stuff, the balancer)
14:42
<vagrantc>
ogra: yes, i know it's easy to write.
14:42
<dem>
i have the code for it, i have the server component, and a simple server picker (based on retrived results)
14:42
<ogra>
i suspect next release wont see many new features though ....
14:42
<dem>
but i'd rather not use ldm that's all
14:42
<ogra>
speedup is more important
14:43
<vagrantc>
apparently, there seems to be some focus on speedup, eh?
14:43
<ogra>
yes, needed
14:43
<dem>
ogra: bootup speed?
14:43
<ogra>
yes
14:43
most of it ldm ...
14:44
but also some kernel cut down ...
14:44
<dem>
well i can help
14:44
it be nice if all the init scripts were upstart native not old init scripts called by upstart
14:44
<ogra>
right
14:45
btu these scripts are the default ubuntu ones and we dont want to change them specifically for ltsp
14:45
<dem>
well i belive they already have some of them done, they just missed the window
14:45
at least that's what i read/heared
14:45
<ogra>
so that means going over all apps used in the client (ubuntu-minimal dependencies) and fixing them
14:45
<vagrantc>
i think if we split the init scripts into modular parts, it would be fairly easy to support both "old" style init scripts as well as upstart and such
14:46
<ogra>
right, thats some free stuff we'll inherit from ubuntu :)
14:46
<vagrantc>
?
14:46
<ogra>
vagrantc, well, i was hping debian would just consider upstart for etch+1 :)
14:46* vagrantc isn't counting on it
14:46
<ogra>
vagrantc, the above was meant to dem
14:47
<dem>
well you can do that already
14:47
move things one by one
14:47
/* for the most part */
14:47
<ogra>
dem, yes, but i really like to have the people nowing deeply about the apps move their initscripts (and debug them) ...
14:47
<vagrantc>
ogra: and that's also presuming distro FOO will switch to upstart :P
14:48
<ogra>
right
14:48
indeed
14:48
<vagrantc>
i think we
14:48
<ogra>
i'm hoping the world will switch to upstart at some point :)
14:48
<vagrantc>
'll need to support old-style in some form or fashion, lest there be a lot of forkage
14:49
<ogra>
meh
14:49
<vagrantc>
well, i don't think it will be terribly difficult.
14:49
<ogra>
it will bloat
14:49
<vagrantc>
we just need to split the scripts into smaller pieces, which could be run from upstart or old-school init anyways.
14:50
which is what i've wanted to do anyways
14:50
<ogra>
well, you are talking about our two ltsp scripts here
14:50
<vagrantc>
yes, i am.
14:50
<ogra>
there are many many more
14:51
even though neither of them should cause big slowdowns ...
14:51
<dem>
for our deployment we're getting 3 (or maybe 4) more 2x quad-core intel servers
14:51
<ogra>
not in old nor new style init
14:51
<dem>
to server out desktops, so i'm working on some loadbalancing support for ltsp
14:51
<ogra>
the big slowdowns we currently have is the loading of modules and ldm
14:51
<vagrantc>
well, i don't want the ltsp codebase to require forking init scripts, that's my concern here.
14:52
ogra: kernel modules?
14:52
<ogra>
i dont really care about our two scripts here ... even wif we fork them ...
14:52
they are small
14:52
<dem>
now with this redesign of launchpad i can't find find people on it anymore
14:52
<ogra>
yes, the "loading hardware drivers" part of ubuntu takes the longest brea in booting
14:53
*break
14:53
which is the part where udev and module-init-tools run and load modules/create devices
14:54
<dem>
orga, what's the url to your branch
14:54
<ogra>
i think well need to cut the module list for an -ltsp kernel to speed that up
14:54
https://launchpad.net/~ogra/+branches
14:54
<vagrantc>
lists of modules loaded at boot time?
14:55
<ogra>
specifically: https://code.launchpad.net/~ogra/ltsp/feisty-ltsp
14:55
vagrantc, the speedup is "cut down the list of available modules"
14:55
so parsing it will take less ....
14:56
beyond that the initrd will get a lot smaller
14:56
and load faster
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14:57
<ogra>
vagrantc, the idea is to pic the kernel config from the 4.2 kernels, adapt it to the recent source and build a specific -ltsp flavor
14:57
<vagrantc>
hrm.
14:57
<ogra>
dunno if that works for debian
14:57
<vagrantc>
it's a lot of work, probably.
14:58
<ogra>
well, it's just adding and maintaining another config in the kernel package for me
14:58
<vagrantc>
but if it's the only way to get the needed speed improvements...
14:58
<edgarin>
vagrantc, hola!
14:58
<ogra>
well, the etch kernel seems slightly faster than the feisty one ...
14:58
<vagrantc>
edgarin: buenas tardes
14:58
<ogra>
but there are two versions inbetween i think
14:59
<edgarin>
vagrantc, como estas?
14:59
<vagrantc>
edgarin: esta bien, mas o menos
14:59
<ogra>
so even debians kernel is massively slower than the 4.2 one
14:59
<edgarin>
vagrantc, working?
14:59
<vagrantc>
edgarin: manana
15:00
<edgarin>
ahh
15:01
vagrantc, you have a blog?
15:01* vagrantc suspects it will be difficult to get the debian kernel maintainers to maintain yet another kernel
15:01
<vagrantc>
edgarin: not really
15:01
<ogra>
time to get one :)
15:01
<edgarin>
vagrantc, umm... but you are a official developer of Debian or no?
15:01
<vagrantc>
edgarin: not yet official, no.
15:02
<edgarin>
ohhh
15:02
vagrantc, see this: http://www.df7cb.de/pictures/0605-DebConf6/060508-Hacking/25-Maulkin_vagrantc_otavio.jpg
15:02
:P
15:02
<vagrantc>
edgarin: i'm an active co-maintainer of the ltsp packages in debian
15:02
<edgarin>
vagrantc, cool!
15:02
<ogra>
hah
15:02
edgarin, he *is* debians ltsp team
15:02
<edgarin>
:D
15:03
<ogra>
dont trust him isf he says different things
15:03edgarin has quit IRC
15:03
<vagrantc>
whoah, evidence of me drinking beer from a can! now that's rare.
15:04
i could probably count the times on one hand.
15:08
<jammcq>
what, you prefer to drink it right out of the tap ?
15:10
<ogra>
jammcq, so you think we'll find evidence of him lying under a cow ?
15:10
<jammcq>
heh
15:15* vagrantc prefers glass
15:16* ogra thinks about glass cows ...
15:17
<jammcq>
glass cows don't throw stones
15:17
for obvious reasons
15:17* vagrantc soaks up the wisdom
15:18
<ogra>
lol
15:20* ogra thinks 12h at work is enough and takes the laptop upstairs
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15:44
<vagrantc>
how big is the initramfs image in ltsp 4.2 ?
15:44
and kernel, for that matter
15:45
<jammcq>
the kernel is 1.6mb and the initramfs is 1.3mb
15:46
<vagrantc>
compare that to nearly 3MB for the initramfs and about 1.1 MB for the kernel in debian ... i wonder how much that slows down the boot process
15:46
<jammcq>
not very much
15:46
the kernel+initramfs get downloaded in less than 2 seconds
15:47
uncompressing the larger initramfs takes a few more milliseconds
15:47
<vagrantc>
though uncompressing a bigger initramfs image
15:47
hmmm...
15:47
<jammcq>
ltsp-4.2 has the user logged in at about the same time the ltsp-5 kernel even thinks about going into userspace
15:53
<vagrantc>
hrm.
15:53
<dem>
init=/sbin/bootchartd
15:54
<vagrantc>
jammcq: you talking ubuntu or debian there?
15:54
<dem>
sorry, x11 copy and paste
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16:03
<jammcq>
vagrantc: yes
16:04
even Debian takes longer than it should
16:04
<dem>
ugh, socket programing in python
16:04
<vagrantc>
hmmm...
16:04
dem: would you prefer csh ?
16:04
<dem>
jammcq: if i remember correctly ubuntus way of hardware detetction is keep throwing modules at the wall to see what sticks
16:05
<jammcq>
vagrantc: 41 secs in LTSP-4.2 vs 118 secs in Debian
16:05
<vagrantc>
jammcq: but does debian stall at the same places ubuntu does? because ubuntu was a good deal slower, no?
16:06
<jammcq>
umm, haven't looked that closely
16:06bobby_C has quit IRC
16:06
<jammcq>
btw, Ubuntu-ltsp-5 284 seconds
16:06
so, 118 vs 284 is a HUGE difference
16:06
but even 118 is way to long
16:06
<vagrantc>
and this is after some speed improvements?
16:07
<jammcq>
oh, now it's 274 for Ubuntu
16:07
so there has been *some* improvements
16:07
<Lumiere>
hmm
16:07
are you using the standard ubuntu/debian kernels?
16:07
<vagrantc>
on debian, yes.
16:07
<jammcq>
on Ubuntu, it's using the Ubuntu kernel
16:08
<Lumiere>
2 minutes is 1 minute 30 seconds too long imo
16:08
<jammcq>
but.... that really shouldn't matter
16:08J45p3r has joined #ltsp
16:08
<vagrantc>
jammcq: these are the times with LDM ?
16:08
<jammcq>
yes
16:08
<vagrantc>
jammcq: have you tested debian with startx ?
16:08
<jammcq>
it's quite a bit better with XDMCP, but still too slow
16:08
http://wiki.ltsp.org/twiki/bin/view/Ltsp/BootSpeedeBox2300
16:09
feast your eyes on that
16:09
<dem>
jim, you think it be acceptable to say for like 10 seconds after typing your username/password in ldm "Please wait while locating the faster server"
16:09
<jammcq>
hmm
16:09
<dem>
i'm trying to figure out what would be a good maxiumum to ping everything
16:09
<jammcq>
it'd be a good first step, I suppose
16:10
<Lumiere>
dem: how about "Please wait while we optimize your login"
16:10
<jammcq>
heh
16:10
<dem>
i'm already "pinging" all of them in parallel
16:10
<jammcq>
if a server doesn't respond within about 3 seconds, we prolly don't want to log into it
16:10
<dem>
i guess, i could have ldm constant check for the fastest machine while some one is not log in
16:11
<vagrantc>
why not have ldm pinging them periodically to keep track of which is loaded at any given time?
16:11
<dem>
but that's like step 5
16:11
i'm on step 2
16:11
<vagrantc>
so then the user can just log in
16:11
<Lumiere>
dem: I think the goal should be to not tell people that they're checking choices
16:11
<vagrantc>
i guess it generates nedless trafic
16:11
<Lumiere>
vagrantc: not that much
16:11
<jammcq>
I'd wait about 3 seconds, then look at the results you got, and choose the fastest. if none of them respond within that time, then take the first one that responds
16:12
<dem>
yeah i'm trying to pick the best one based on load / number of processors and memory free right now
16:12
i didn't get around to any kind of backup plan yet
16:13
<jammcq>
but if it takes more than a few seconds to respond, we prolly don't want it
16:13
<vagrantc>
both ubuntu and debian are faster at logging back in :)
16:13
<jammcq>
vagrantc: i'm considering that an anomolly
16:13
<dem>
well with jorge's broken dns resolve or whatever... it sometimes takes time
16:14
<Lumiere>
imo the login server should be put in hosts on the local system as part of bootup
16:14
<dem>
that's why i picked 10 seconds as the goal for the whole thing to finish (application start to return)
16:14
<Lumiere>
in fact
16:14
I'd say ltsp should automate a hosts file on the system to have all the app and login servers in hosts
16:15
so you never use dns
16:15
<dem>
yeah, i'm woried about the people who will maintain this setup after me (jorge)
16:17
they use ad for dns too, so it be less trivial to automate it
16:19
<Lumiere>
ad?
16:21
<dem>
active directory
16:24dan_young has joined #ltsp
16:24
<Lumiere>
ewww
16:25
dem: how do you track available app/login servers?
16:25
ad as well?
16:25
<dem>
well we have one right now... and a second one that isn't used
16:26
the whole infastructure for it sucks right now
16:26
<Lumiere>
yea
16:26
<dem>
it was like hey we got ltsp clients friday, and mondey they got put in service
16:26
monday even
16:26pscheie has quit IRC
16:26
<Lumiere>
ouch
16:26
well
16:26
<dem>
and it was swapped out mid semester to replace sunrays
16:26
<Lumiere>
ah
16:27
<dem>
which was a night mare
16:27
all of it will be fixed at the end of this semester
16:27
<Lumiere>
if you have to mark a place to say what app/login servers are available
16:27
<dem>
or, more like we'll putting together a real infastructure together
16:27
and we'll be done by winner semester
16:27
<Lumiere>
ah
16:27
<dem>
erm, fall
16:28
we'll put online one fesity server, then a second one (the non-used one)
16:28
and then two months later we will have 3 more intel core2 2x quad core boxes
16:29
<Lumiere>
yea
16:30
<dem>
our users are idiots... like one dude will run some java simulation tool and use all 4 cores on a server
16:32
so we need lot's of boxes and lots of power and memory
16:32
they just don't know any better, to even nice their applications
16:32
and limits on linux are pretty shitty
16:34* vagrantc suspects some "and" or "verynice" would come in handy
16:36
<dem>
well there's not really a good sollution to penalize applications for long running applications, by gradualy reducing their priority
16:36
esp the matlabs, fluents, gambits, UGS and all the proprietary stuff that runs
16:36
<vagrantc>
well, if you want them to nice things ...
16:39joebaker has quit IRC
16:41
<dem>
or this one time we just got a new box with 16 gigs or ram, and like 3 days later our machine comes starts griding and 10 minutes when we finaly are able to login, and check memory
16:41
turns out some dude was using 16 gigs or ram and 10 gigs of swap
16:41
it's like the resources are there for them but they abuse them and there is no good way to limit them
16:42
<Lumiere>
quotas
16:42
:)
16:42
something large but sane
16:42
<dem>
quotas only work for diskspace
16:42
and linux limits suck
16:42
<Lumiere>
heh
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17:32
<vagrantc>
!greyscreen
17:32
<ltspbot>
vagrantc: "greyscreen" is No login, and only a grey screen? See http://wiki.ltsp.org/twiki/bin/view/Ltsp/Troubleshooting-GrayScreen
17:32
<cliebow>
!grayscreen
17:32
<ltspbot>
cliebow: "grayscreen" is No login, and only a grey screen? See http://wiki.ltsp.org/twiki/bin/view/Ltsp/Troubleshooting-GrayScreen#GDM
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19:46
<sbalneav>
Evening all
19:47
<vagrantc>
sbalneav: hi
19:47
<sbalneav>
Hey vagrantc
19:47
<vagrantc>
sbalneav: do you realize how much use that little usb ethernet device you gave me has gotten?
19:47
<sbalneav>
I'm guessing either "none" or "lots" :)
19:48
<vagrantc>
heh
19:48
<sbalneav>
Useful?
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19:48
<vagrantc>
it's been my primary nic for my ltsp development
19:48
<sbalneav>
They're handy little dinguses, especially on laptops
19:48
<vagrantc>
indeed.
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19:53
<jammcq>
hey kids
19:54
<sbalneav>
Hey, dad
19:54
<jammcq>
:)
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19:58
<dem>
vmware is awesome for testing ltsp clients
19:58
just create an machine pxe boot, and reboot and reboot etc
19:58
<jammcq>
yeah, pretty slick, eh?
19:58
too bad vmware sucks so bad with sped-stepping hosts
19:59
s/sped/speed/
19:59
<dem>
i have no issues on core 1 duo
19:59
<jammcq>
laptop ?
19:59
<dem>
yeah
20:00
<jammcq>
no problems with the clock ?
20:00
<dem>
no, haven't run into them
20:00
althought it takes a while for the clock to fix it self when you suspend a guest
20:00
<jammcq>
hmm, it's a real problem on mine, but it's not a core duo
20:01
if I do a "sleep 1" inside a guest, it sleeps for like 17 seconds
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20:02
<dem>
hmm, never ran into that to be honest
20:02
<jammcq>
maybe I need a new lappy
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20:03
<dem>
pentium m?
20:04
<jammcq>
yep
20:04
is that known problem or something?
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20:05
<dem>
no just curious
20:05
since the core duo are just an evolution of p m
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20:09
<dem>
160 gig laptop sata drive for $119
20:09
so tempting
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20:48* PMantis dances
20:48
<jammcq>
heh
20:48* PMantis just made his first debian package
20:49
<PMantis>
niiiiiiiiiiiiice
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21:08
<vagrantc>
PMantis: oh yeah? did you use lazy tools, or do it the hard way?
21:08
<PMantis>
vagrantc, I have no idea. only know one way. :)
21:09
I setup a dir structure, created a control file, and ran dpkg -b
21:09
<vagrantc>
egads!
21:10
<PMantis>
?
21:10
!egads
21:10
<ltspbot>
PMantis: Error: "egads" is not a valid command.
21:10
<vagrantc>
that's definitely the hard way.
21:10
<PMantis>
ok, teach me the easy way. :)
21:10
<vagrantc>
heh :)
21:10
PMantis: oh, have you run lintian on them?
21:10
<PMantis>
It's a very simple package.
21:11
lintian?
21:11
<vagrantc>
it checks for common packaging mistakes
21:11
<PMantis>
The only thing the package contains is a few files that sit in /usr/lib/dirname
21:12
Looking for a simple way to upgrade a few machines easily after I get it right once...
21:12
This seemed like the best approach
21:16
Hmmm
21:16
no-copyright-file
21:16
extended-description-is-empty
21:16
essential-no-not-needed
22:34
<vagrantc>
not too bad
22:38
<Lumiere>
vagrantc: is there a good way to learn how to make a debian package?
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22:39* Lumiere will read about it tomorrow... gotta be up in 6 hours
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22:39
<Lumiere>
pictures of sakura (cherry blossoms) tomorrow bright and early
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