IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.freenode.net (webchat)


Channel log from 2 February 2012   (all times are UTC)

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04:44
<alkisg>
!seen vagrantc
04:44
<ltsp>
alkisg: vagrantc was last seen in #ltsp 1 day, 7 hours, 54 minutes, and 23 seconds ago: * vagrantc is behind on reading backscroll too
04:58ba has joined IRC (ba!~ba@airport.kg)
04:58
<ba>
hey guys!
04:58
:D
04:58
a quick..and shameless question.....is there any new features coming with Ubuntu 12.04 in LTSP? I wonder is there anything I could test and is there anything that could save my life..
05:00
<alkisg>
There's no support for sending XP images yet :D
05:00
<ba>
alkisg, oohh :)) lol
05:00
<alkisg>
Hehe... there are some new features, but I can't think of anything that would interest you
05:00
<ba>
alkisg, please......
05:00
alkisg, who knows! may be I could find a normal solution for my faulty project
05:00
<alkisg>
How many clients do you have?
05:01
<ba>
alkisg, should be about 100 clients (but 40 would be more than great)
05:01
currently I have only ten working through RDP
05:01
<alkisg>
Same hardware?
05:01
<ba>
a lot of complains...
05:01
yes the same hardware
05:01
<alkisg>
500 MHz / 1 Gb RAM?
05:02
<ba>
alkisg, ...yes
05:02
firstly i tried to make them using Ubuntu. but I had to run many windows programs so decided to go with rdesktop
05:02
<alkisg>
And do you need 3d acceleration etc?
05:02
<ba>
I compiled FreeRDP 1.0 with many tasty features. but it's slow anyway (slow when scrolling in IE and other browsers) I don't know why
05:03
alkisg, Video is not mandatory
05:03
<alkisg>
I could try installing ubuntu in an external disk, and booting from that. Then, I'd install vbox + a windows XP vm in it.
05:04
If that is good enough, performance-wise for you, then ltsp+vbox VMs of XP will do what you want.
05:04
*I would, not could
05:05
If it's not good enough, I'd try iscsi or aoe
05:09
<ba>
Ubuntu + VirtualBox + Windows machine on the 500Mhz?
05:09
the disk and storage is not a problem a built a SAN
05:10
<alkisg>
Yes, ubuntu + vbox + windows
05:10
A light version of it would be better, for testing, e.g. lubuntu
05:11
<ba>
alkisg, ubuntu with the only vbox app installed right?
05:11
<alkisg>
Because ltsp thin clients only need 64 MB RAM, it's even lighter than lubuntu
05:11
Yes
05:11
You could also test with ltsp, it would just be harder for you
05:11
<ba>
and VBox installed not as a local app right?
05:11
:D
05:11
if not as a local app then why not hm
05:11
<alkisg>
As a local app. That's why I'm proposing to try without ltsp
05:12
<ba>
alkisg, a already have such type of installation here with Citrix Provisioning Services
05:12
alkisg, it allows Operating System streaming
05:12
<alkisg>
Yeah you told me yesterday, but that's not a VM, is it?
05:12
<ba>
alkisg, things booting fine and working fine...
05:13
alkisg, yes, not as VM.
05:13
<alkisg>
So it's not the same type of installation
05:13
<ba>
alkisg, if with VBox installed as a local app would use thin client's hardware anyway
05:13
<alkisg>
Yes
05:14
<ba>
alkisg, so the small ubuntu + X server + VBox + Windows XP in it vs OS streaming = who win?
05:14
OS streaming of course.
05:14
it's a bare OS on TC's HW
05:14
I can try though
05:14
<alkisg>
Of course os streaming wins, and of course iscsi beats that too
05:15
Because iscsi or aoe is like native installations
05:15
<ba>
alkisg, yes the performance is like it's running on TC's own compact flash drive
05:15
<alkisg>
The vbox method would be *easier*, not faster
05:16
You could e.g. install photoshop in your template vbox vm, and on the next reboot all clients would have that
05:16
You could put clients with different hardware and they'd just work
05:16
<ba>
alkisg, with PVS you only manage only one image too
05:16
<alkisg>
And what does it do with drivers?
05:16
<ba>
PVS is absolute powerful technology. The problem is that it requires powerful end point device
05:16
<alkisg>
You install the nvidia drivers in the template image?
05:16
<ba>
alkisg, the idea is that with PVS:
05:17
<alkisg>
And the ati drivers, etc etc?
05:17
<ba>
alkisg, you first install PVS server configure DHCP+TFTP
05:17
alkisg, then you install an OS to your target device
05:17
alkisg, then you install Target Device sfotware on that OS specifying your PVS server
05:17
alkisg, (of course with it's native drivers)
05:17
<alkisg>
Locally? You're supposed to have a local disk?
05:18
<ba>
alkisg, then it starts uploading your endpoint device OS to remote vDisk
05:18
alkisg, then you restart the device and boot via PXE
05:18
alkisg, you would now load that remote vDisk instead of local disk
05:19
alkisg, and you can remove your local disk and work like that
05:19
<alkisg>
And any changes you make from then on, are they temporary or permanent?
05:19
<ba>
alkisg, it's configurable! as you wish.
05:19
alkisg, you can make it temporary or you can make a permanent
05:19
<alkisg>
So the downside is that you need a different image for each client with different hardware
05:19
<ba>
alkisg, with permanent PVS would create so called "DIfferentiate disk"
05:20
<alkisg>
And how does it handle hostnames, cids, ssids etc?
05:20
It changes those on boot?
05:20
<ba>
it handles somehow
05:21
<alkisg>
Is the result stable? I expect *not*, with all those background changes to undocumented ms core stuff...
05:21
While with a VM you don't even care about the os, the hostname etc
05:22
It's a good technology though, I was thinking of something like that for ltsp
05:22
To be able to manage fat clients either in vbox installations or on template installations on real hardware
05:22
The good part is that with linux you don't need a local disk at all
05:23
<ba>
(be right back) phone
05:28
alright
05:28
alkisg, actually I am not sure when it makes it's magic with Active Directory management but it does
05:29
alkisg, with PVS you don't need local disk too! it just needed to install the OS with it's drivers and then convert it to virtual
05:29
alkisg, PVS would just die if LTSP starts to provide this solution for Windows machines
05:29
<alkisg>
Yes, that's not always possible, depending on the client hardware a local disk may not be available
05:30
I don't think ltsp would do that
05:30
It needs client windows code
05:30
<ba>
alkisg, I understand
05:30
alkisg, PVS is great when you have a great and stable Network and end point devices are powerful enough!
05:31
but ghreat thing is that you don't depend on disks
05:31
<alkisg>
So your problems with PVS are only those 2? network stability + client cpu?
05:31
<ba>
it's even greater if you have many equal hardware like powerful ThinClients (1Ghz and upper)
05:31
alkisg, client CPU mostly.
05:32
the network intensively used only at boot time
05:32
<alkisg>
How are licenses managed?
05:32
<ba>
alkisg, as always with Citrix products. You need to have License Server and upload license files
05:32
<alkisg>
You need to have a corporate version of windows?
05:32
<ba>
alkisg, per device/user
05:32
<alkisg>
Not the citrix licenses... the windows licenses
05:32
<ba>
alkisg, about windows...can't tell 100% but I think yes. Windows XP SP3 or Windows 7 Enterprise
05:33
alkisg, not sure about this :D as I was testing I didn't use licensed OS
05:33
<alkisg>
Gotcha
05:33
<ba>
alkisg, PVS supports KMS activation features though
05:33
alkisg, to massive activation of machines or something like that
05:33
<alkisg>
Well with ltsp fat clients we have all that under linux... it's the windows part that's problematic
05:34
<ba>
alkisg, sure. LTSP is great project. the NBD-Server is very much like PVS really
05:34
alkisg, I wouldn't be surprised if they are actually using NBD code
05:35
<alkisg>
How do the clients see their hard disk device?
05:35
As an nbd device? Or as iscsi? or aoe?
05:35
<ba>
alkisg, in the system tray there is an icon a disk showing activity and the mode (permanent, cache etc.)
05:35
alkisg, good questoin about how it sees...one second :D
05:35
<alkisg>
That's probably a citrix application
05:35
Check with devmgmt.msc
05:36
<ba>
Windows XP is shwoing "Citrix Virtual Hard DIsk"
05:36
<alkisg>
Right, good choice.
05:37
Of course implementing a windows device driver is outside the scope of ltsp :D
05:37
<ba>
alkisg :D
05:37
alkisg, with Linux is getting better in terms of UI and common usability I think it's gonna be a great alternative soon
05:38
<alkisg>
UI and usability are great, the problem is specific apps
05:38
<ba>
alkisg, with FreeRDP 1.0 I was thinking of use RemoteApp feature and having Linux + many remoteApps
05:38
<alkisg>
If a user knows ms office and doesn't want to switch to libreoffice, then that's a problem
05:38
<ba>
alkisg, a huge problem...
05:39
alkisg, but, I must say...Citrix products are not easy. It's a greatest time killer
05:39
alkisg, something happens always...whatever you do :D
05:39
<alkisg>
Even after the initial setup?
05:39
Hm
05:39
That's not good
05:40
<ba>
alkisg, yes. So dont' epxect too much with it and people talking about their products..
05:40
visit their forums. a lot of problems :D
05:40
I am not going to make bad advertisment..it's jut my own experience.
05:40
subjective :D
05:41
but next time I will go with RedHat or VMWare
05:41
<alkisg>
Haha don't worry noone here will hold it against you :D
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06:25
<Komunista>
alkisg: ping :-)
06:26
alkisg: I am now in the ltsp class and I tried new version epoptes, but I still do not see the clients
06:27
<alkisg>
Hi Komunista
06:27
Mind if we share a vnc screen?
06:28
In epoptes, go to help menu
06:28
And select "remote support"
06:28
And give my ip there: alkisg.dyndns.org
06:29
<Komunista>
done
06:32
<alkisg>
Komunista: can you run this command from the thin client?
06:32
x11vnc -noshm -connect alkisg.dyndns.org
06:32
So that I see both sides
06:33
<Komunista>
yes, I will copy&paste it by hand (paper and pen) :-)
06:34
done
06:35
I get connection timeout
06:35
<alkisg>
Komunista: never mind I think I see the problem
06:36
We need the mac address of the thin client
06:36
And the correct method to get it would be to change the ltsp package
06:36
But we didn't have time to wait for a new ltsp release
06:36
So we put code in epoptes-client to expose the ltsp client mac to its session
06:36
<Komunista>
take look at the server screen, in terminal is arp output
06:36
<alkisg>
And that's how we detect if we should display the client or not
06:36
No no
06:37
So what I'm saying is that you *need* the epoptes-client in the chroot
06:37
In a future version we'll change ltsp so that you won't be needing it
06:37
But now you do need it
06:37
<Komunista>
but in previous versions it works without it
06:37
<alkisg>
Yes
06:37
We changed the code to *require* the mac address of the thin client
06:38
It simplified the code a lot
06:38
Do you want me to patch your local version to do without it?
06:38
<Komunista>
but when I tried the epoptes-client in chroot, there was two clients, which was not able to connect
06:38
<alkisg>
Let's try it together now if you don't have a problem with that
06:39
<Komunista>
no problem to wait, while it is not critical app for me, it is only "candy" for students :-)
06:39
<alkisg>
I don't know how long it will take for a new ltsp version to come out...
06:40
Especially for squeeze
06:40
<Komunista>
yes we can try it now
06:40
<alkisg>
Do you want me to patch your local installation of epoptes?
06:40
That, or to install epoptes-client in the chroot
06:40
<Komunista>
ok, this take some time - I am at NBD
06:42
<alkisg>
Komunista: you're running aptitude somewhere on your server...
06:42
Close it so that we can install epoptes-client in the chroot
06:42
<Komunista>
yes, in chroot
06:42
<alkisg>
Ah ok sorry I was trying to install it as well :D
06:43
<Komunista>
:-)
06:43
<alkisg>
Don't forget to run `epoptes-client -c` in the chroot, to fetch the server certificate
06:43
<Komunista>
ok, thanks
06:43
it is all, please? I have no install instructions opened now...
06:44
<alkisg>
In the chroot:
06:44
apt-get update; apt-get install epoptes-client; epoptes-client -c
06:44
exit, update image
06:44
reboot clients
06:45
<Komunista>
I will tried it only in one client now, the students are going
06:45
<alkisg>
OK
06:48
Komunista: for the other client to show up, the client needs to be rebooted
06:48
<Komunista>
it seems to work now, I see this one (rebooted) client
06:48
<alkisg>
OK, if you want file a bug about not working when not installed in the chroot
06:48* alkisg left vnc
06:48
<Komunista>
alkisg: thanks :-)
06:49
<alkisg>
You're welcome, thanks for the translation :)
06:49
<Komunista>
I will update translation in next days, but, please, is problem post call for translation?
06:50
in PO files is the last translator field, with email adress
06:50
no problem to grep and mass mail...
06:50
<alkisg>
Yeah I guess we can do that
06:50
I will send a mail to all translators for the next version
06:51
<Komunista>
thanks, it is obvious in other projects too to send this some days before release ;-)
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12:57
<_UsUrPeR_>
!!
12:57
<ltsp>
_UsUrPeR_: Error: "!" is not a valid command.
12:58
<_UsUrPeR_>
:O
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13:03
<muppis>
:)
13:05
Hmm..
13:05
!learn ! Are you frustrated?
13:05
<ltsp>
muppis: (learn [<channel>] <key> as <value>) -- Associates <key> with <value>. <channel> is only necessary if the message isn't sent on the channel itself. The word 'as' is necessary to separate the key from the value. It can be changed to another word via the learnSeparator registry value.
13:05
<muppis>
13:05
!learn ! as Are you frustrated?
13:05
<ltsp>
muppis: The operation succeeded.
13:05
<muppis>
!!
13:05
<ltsp>
muppis: !: Are you frustrated?
13:06
<muppis>
:D
13:06
<_UsUrPeR_>
:D
13:06
I forgot the bot was !
13:06
<muppis>
That's why I made that.
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13:24
<laurei>
getltscfg -a
13:24
syntax error in /etc/lts.conf line 1
13:25
my only line is NFS_HOME=/home
13:25
its crazy
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13:29
<xsl>
hi all
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13:36
<muppis>
laurei, you should have [default] above it.
13:37
<laurei>
of course! just came to that conclusion, that was a hard one, thanks :)
13:43
I was speaking with alkisg yesterday about allowing access to other users /home's, he suggested follow symlinks for ssh or use nfs_home
13:43
I just got it working using nfs_home :)
13:43
, the follow symlinks allowed me to see users inside the chroot but not on the server for some reason
13:44
* users /home folders. either way, nfs is working i see them all
13:46
you guys are so helpful ltsp rocks
13:47
<xsl>
is it possible to use LTSP to deploy max images ? imagine i want the thin clients to have installed allways on disc a ubuntu distro.and i make them [default] goes to LTSP and [MAC] goes to installing raw image on disc
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13:56
<laurei>
xsl: This is easy done via normal pxe netbooting, and pretty sure ltsp starts on these principles, try a tutorial on netbooting first, im sure its just a matter of modifying /var/lib/tftpboot/pxelinux.cfg/default but i might be wrong if it messes with ltsp
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14:24
<laurei>
hi alkisg I had success with NFS_HOME after about a day, but is it normal that the true owner of the files isnt respected?
14:25
<alkisg>
What do you mean?
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14:28
<laurei>
the home folders should just be mounted with the permissions of the logged in users normally? as per normal NFS or would It work differently? alkisg
14:29
<alkisg>
It's normal NFS, but only the logged in user exists on the client
14:29
The client doesn't know about all the other users in the ltsp server
14:31
<laurei>
thats good to note. I'm using NFS_HOME and I can see their folders, i'd like the permissions to be the same, eg, cant access them unless allowed to
14:34
alkisg at the moment I can either access everyones home dirs on 0666 or none (not even my own) on 644 perms
14:35
<alkisg>
Yes, it's because the users are missing from the ltsp clients
14:36
You could either patch ltsp to bring the other user accounts too, or use the default sshfs, or use ldap, etc
14:36
<laurei>
what user does nfs connect as , just world?
14:36
I do use LDAP
14:38
<alkisg>
I think nfs uses "nobody" for missing accounts
14:38
ldap on the fat clients, not the server
14:38
It would require changes to the chroot + maybe in some ltsp scripts
14:39
<laurei>
true, perhaps I haven't set the client ldap up, I'll look for the mans
14:40
confusing because the password and username already work from ldap
14:40
on fat c's
14:40
<alkisg>
If you try "su otheruser" from a fat client, it works?
14:40
I don't believe so...
14:41
<laurei>
it logged in from the alt ctrl f1 prompt, i'll try terminal in gnome
14:45
<alkisg>
bbl
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18:34
<alkisg>
Hi vagrantc! Whenever you have some time, epoptes is ready for a release :)
18:35
<vagrantc>
alkisg: tomorrow could work
18:36
<alkisg>
Nice, ty
18:36
I've stressed it in a school, thumbnails seem much more stable now
18:38
<vagrantc>
cool
18:38
also want to push a new ldm tomorrow
18:38
and if it goes well, ltsp
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18:45
<hughessd>
hi all, I just had something strange happen with my LTSP setup.
18:46
I set LDM_DIRECTX =True in lts.conf in hopes that it would help the choppiness of video in firefox and chrome.
18:46
and now one of the HP thinclients won't refresh it's video. even after changing taking the line back out of lts.conf
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18:46
<hughessd>
(which prob means they're not actually related)
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18:47
<hughessd>
i was hoping someone has had experience with HP thinclients... Please give me a shout if so. Thank you.
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18:48
<muppis>
!win32-loader
18:48
<ltsp>
muppis: win32-loader: win32-loader.exe can be used to add a "PXE - Network boot" option to the Windows boot manager. It's developed for Debian and it uses gPXE/iPXE for the network booting. You can download a binary from http://ts.sch.gr/docs/kanonismoi-diadikasies/doc_download/327-ltsp-loader - (if someone can write a wiki page about it it'd be nice :))
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19:27
<vagrantc>
alkisg: looks like ipxe in /boot with grub2 is now in debian sid
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19:36
<alkisg>
vagrantc: yup, and I also filed another bug for win32-loader to depend on that, and create a win32-loader-pxe.exe in the debian archives :) http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=657830
19:37
So in the future windows users will be able to run http://ftp.debian.org/debian/tools/win32-loader/unstable/win32-loader-pxe.exe and have instant ltsp clients (if the card doesn't have a boot rom, that is)
19:38
<vagrantc>
wow.
19:39
alkisg: looks like it doesn't generate a correct grub entry though ... minor bugfix
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19:44
<alkisg>
vagrantc: ipxe in debian is currently broken, it results in "B: command not found", if that's the problem you saw...
19:44
The upstream git snapshot was from a date in the summer when it had problems being booted from grub
19:44
Someone is working on uploading a newer one...
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19:49
<alkisg>
Btw I wrote a wiki page about managing groups, to help with that drag 'n' drop problem: http://www.epoptes.org/documentation/groups
19:50
<vagrantc>
alkisg: oh, also the grub entries are broken
19:52
alkisg: ah, so the code is even broken? :(
19:52
alkisg: it just created a bunk menu entry, i.e. no linux or linux16 entry
19:52
<alkisg>
Yeah ipxe.lkrn can be booted with syslinux but not from grub
19:52
<vagrantc>
doh.
19:55
<alkisg>
That's the entry that the ipxe package created for me: http://paste.ubuntu.com/826840/
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19:56
<alkisg>
https://code.launchpad.net/~alkisg/+junk/ipxe
19:57
https://launchpad.net/~ts.sch.gr/+archive/ppa/+sourcepub/2206055/+listing-archive-extra
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19:58
<alkisg>
That last binary package is ok, it should create a correct grub entry and also boot :)
19:59* alkisg loves bazaar recipes for automated builds
19:59
<vagrantc>
alkisg: my entry is http://paste.debian.net/154538/
19:59
alkisg: the ipxe.lkrn line should be pre-pended with linux or linux16
19:59
<alkisg>
And probably have the /boot path too
20:00
linux won't work, linux16 is needed
20:00
<vagrantc>
not on my system
20:00
it detects the path correctly for me
20:00
it just didn't have the linux16 logic in there
20:00
i'll have to file a bug report, if someone hasn't already
20:00
<alkisg>
/ipxe.lkrn is the correct path for you?!
20:01
Maybe the script doesn't like that, then :)
20:01
<vagrantc>
yes, boot is on it's own partition
20:02
no, the scripts fine with that, but it failed to copy the logic to determine weather to use linux/linux16, and instead uses an empty variable
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21:31
<rthomson>
I am so close to having a fully functional F16 chroot... but nbd-swap / systemd is causing a kernel panic at shutdown. sigh. If I disable nbd swap, everything is grand. Been spending far too long trying to figure out how to get systemd to run swapoff early in the shutdown/reboot process.
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